Why do people lose faith?

rockbeer

kelly1 wrote: »

Someone could for instance worship buddah and have a vision of him or some voice or whatever and believe this to be true and real.

Just as you had a vision of "god" and believed that to be real. Nothing except your opinion confers truth on either experience.

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm saying that any "revelations" which don't acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God are false. So that includes Vishnu, Ganesh, Krisna, Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith etc.

Based on what evidence other than your own opinion based on your personal experience? What makes your personal experience more valid or reliable than anyone else's?

kelly1 wrote: »

As for people living decent lives, yes non-christians can live decent lives in the eyes of other human beings. Our good works only have value and merit when we are done in union with Jesus and in a state of grace. A persons good deeds have little or no value in God's eyes unless we're in a state of grace.

So if I save a life the act is meaningless and the life saved worthless unless I also happen to believe in god. Is this really what you meant to say? Doesn't the tale of the good samaritan have something to say about this?

Here I am giving theological advice to a christian, how bizarre.

kelly1

AngryHippie wrote: »

All of the above points as raised by Noel, And repeated ad nauseum by the hypocrites dictating what people should think, They are the reasons I have lost my faith. If I rememer my primary school catechism correctly it is worth sacrificing everything to save just one sinner, and yet here they are damning people who live righteously and worship in their own traditions as they were raised.....you people are what is worng with organised religion. The sooner you realise it, the better for the instituions you claim to support (blindly).
Peace out

How could I help save a sinner by condoning false relgion? The truth shall set you free. The charitable thing to do for a sinner is to introduce him/her to Christ as the source of all good/peace/love/salvation etc. It would be wrong of a Christian not to tell someone that yoga etc won't save your soul.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

How could I help save a sinner by condoning false relgion? The truth shall set you free. The charitable thing to do for a sinner is to introduce him/her to Christ as the source of all good/peace/love/salvation etc. It would be wrong of a Christian not to tell someone that yoga etc won't save your soul.

Right, I'm just imagining you arriving at the scene of an Air India plane crash.

"What? Your legs are trapped and you're in extreme pain?

Well, have you ever heard of a man called jesus......."

Mark Hamill

PDN wrote: »

No, I think the contradiction is in what you are choosing to read between the lines.

In the first quote Jesus does not deny that He is God. His words can have either of the following meanings:
a) Why do you call me good when only God is good? I am not God, therefore I am not good?
b) Why do you call me good when only God is good, yet you fail to acknowledge me as God? Can't you see that if I am good then I am also God?

If a) is correct then Jesus would be contradicting Himself. If b) is correct then there is no contradiction except in your own head.

I think the best way to figure out the meanings is look at the context:

18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.
18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
18:26 And they that heard [it] said, Who then can be saved?
18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

He isn't trying to convince anyone he is god, (in fact he seems to say it in passing) and the point of his discusiion is to tell the man what is required to get into heaven.

PDN wrote: »

I have pointed out that Mark edited what Jesus said by omitting a part of Jesus' speech that was irrelevant to his purpose. This does not in any way suggest that anyone added to the words of Jesus. To claim so is an unwarranted leap of logic.

Akrasia and rockbeer hav already pointed out about lying by omission. What someone means when they say something is entirely dependent on context, if you omit something, thereby changing the context, you change what they mean.

kelly1

rockbeer wrote: »

So if I save a life the act is meaningless and the life saved worthless unless I also happen to believe in god.

Of course God wants everyone to do good regardless of their membership of the Body of Christ. What I'm saying is that good acts are far more meritorious in God's eyes when we are "branches grafted onto the True Vine" i.e. we offer up our good works in union with Christ as a member of His body.

rockbeer wrote: »

Doesn't the tale of the good samaritan have something to say about this?

The story of the good Samarithan shows us how we should act regardless of our religion or the state of our souls. Good acts always bring us nearer to God. They open a door for God to enter.

all the stars

kelly1 wrote: »

I won't know for certain that I'm right until I'm dead but it's a very strong conviction of mine. One of the reasons I believe in Jesus is that the more I work to do His will, the more peace and grace I feel.

Ok, i understand that - honestly i do, but everyone believes in their own faith as the one true faith.. and argueing it or being pushy (please dont be offended) will not be doing any good.
Jesus will apreciate your faith even if do not to spread it - wont he? (i imagine he would)

kelly1 wrote: »

Assume for a minute that Krishna is a false deity. Do you think God would do something to give you the impression that Krishna is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of Krishna comes from Satan or self-delusion.

i kinda dunno what to say to that.. You just cant say that every belief other than your is self dilusion.. its just wrong. Coz nobody has proof of their beliefs - apart from the pagans who worship the elements and physical things they can point at and say " i worship that sun there, the one burning your skin".

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're saying. What's possible?

Its possible to commune with the dead and have visions of the future. Clear ones at that. Its just that its against christian beliefs ... thats all my point was on that..

rockbeer

kelly1 wrote: »

Our good works only have value and merit when we are done in union with Jesus and in a state of grace.

kelly1 wrote: »

Of course God wants everyone to do good regardless of their membership of the Body of Christ.

So which is it?

kelly1 wrote: »

The story of the good Samarithan shows us how we should act regardless of our religion or the state of our souls. Good acts always bring us nearer to God. They open a door for God to enter.

The story of the good samaritan surely demonstrates that in Jesus' eyes the action was more important than the religion of the actor - in direct contradiction to your argument that good acts are worthwhile and meaningful only when carried "in a state of grace".

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Assume for a minute that Krishna is a false deity. Do you think God would do something to give you the impression that Krishna is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of Krishna comes from Satan or self-delusion.

How do you tell that your feeling at Lourdes wasn't the devil, or another god?

Malari

Wicknight wrote: »

How do you tell that your feeling at Lourdes wasn't the devil, or another god?

That's what I wanted to know. I mean the holy spirit is pretty specific. If you had gone to Mecca do you think you'd be a muslim now?

Mark Hamill

kelly1 wrote: »

Assume for a minute that Krishna is a false deity. Do you think God would do something to give you the impression that Krishna is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of Krishna comes from Satan or self-delusion.

Assume for a minute that God is a false deity. Do you think insert deity of choice would do something to give you the impression that God is a true god? Of course not. So any "good" that appears to come from worship of God comes from insert evil entity of choice or self-delusion.

Your point works backwards too.

kelly1

all the stars wrote: »

Jesus will apreciate your faith even if do not to spread it - wont he? (i imagine he would)

Jesus asks us all to preach the gospel and that doesn't necessarily mean standing on a soapbox in Stephen's green. We can also preach by our actions. As St Francis said "Preach the gospel at all times and if necessary, use words".

all the stars wrote: »

Its possible to commune with the dead and have visions of the future. Clear ones at that. Its just that its against christian beliefs ... thats all my point was on that..

It's very rare that God allows the dead to communicate with us but if they're not in Purgatory or Heaven, you can be sure they're not good spirits. So called mediums like John Edwards, if they're actually communicating with spirits, can only be demons. If he is in fact communicating with spirits, the purpose of their communication would be to lure people into a false sense of security. There's no mention of heaven, hell or judgement, just an afterlife where everyone goes.

As for telling the future, only God knows the future. Satan can only make an intelligent guess. Prophesy is a gift of the Holy Spirit and is only given to Christians. That's not to say that the Spirit does operate in the souls of others. The Spirit is always trying to draw us to truth.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

How do you tell that your feeling at Lourdes wasn't the devil, or another god?

There's no way the devil is going to lead someone into Christianity.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

There's no way the devil is going to lead someone into Christianity.

Er, ok.

How do you know this?

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

There's no way the devil is going to lead someone into Christianity.

Fred Phelps?

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Er, ok.

How do you know this?

For God's sake, don't you know by now that this is my faith. You know I can't prove this scientifically, don't you? So why even ask (yet again)?

It is my belief and core conviction that Jesus in the only Son of God and that Satan is His sworn enemy so Satan isn't going to do Jesus' work, is he?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

For God's sake, don't you know by now that this is my faith. You know I can't prove this scientifically, don't you? So why even ask (yet again)?

I'm not asking you to prove anything, "scientifically" or otherwise.

I'm asking you how do you know what you are asserting. It is relevant because you are claiming that others who assert things about their religion are working under a deception.

Do you have some better system to work out that your belief isn't a deception than they do?

kelly1 wrote: »

It is my belief and core conviction that Jesus in the only Son of God and that Satan is His sworn enemy so Satan isn't going to do Jesus' work, is he?

But you say that others who have a "belief and core conviction" in, say, Buddhism, are being deceived by Satan.

So how do you know you aren't being deceived also?

Mark Hamill

robindch wrote: »

Fred Phelps?

Did a search on him and found: godhatesireland.com.
But everyone loves the Irish

CerebralCortex

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not asking you to prove anything, "scientifically" or otherwise.

I'm asking you how do you know what you are asserting. It is relevant because you are claiming that others who assert things about their religion are working under a deception.

Do you have some better system to work out that your belief isn't a deception than they do?



But you say that others who have a "belief and core conviction" in, say, Buddhism, are being deceived by Satan.

So how do you know you aren't being deceived also?

You do realise you'll never get a convincing answer of Kelly1 for any of those questions he probably won't even respond.

Akrasia

Malari wrote: »

That's what I wanted to know. I mean the holy spirit is pretty specific. If you had gone to Mecca do you think you'd be a muslim now?

I think we should all club together and send Noel to Burning Man.

That's a pretty spiritual experience, plus there's naked chicks

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

It's very rare that God allows the dead to communicate with us but if they're not in Purgatory or Heaven, you can be sure they're not good spirits. So called mediums like John Edwards, if they're actually communicating with spirits

They're not, it's all a total scam

, can only be demons. If he is in fact communicating with spirits, the purpose of their communication would be to lure people into a false sense of security. There's no mention of heaven, hell or judgement, just an afterlife where everyone goes.

So if John edwards mentioned heaven and jesus all the time then you'd be prepared to accept that they weren't demons?

MrPudding

But naked chicks are the evil spawn of santa.

MrP

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

But naked chicks are the evil spawn of santa.

MrP

Has this post any relevance - or are you just trolling?

MrPudding

PDN wrote: »

Has this post any relevance - or are you just trolling?

Prodably not and probably. Frustration getting the better of me.

MrP

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

Has this post any relevance - or are you just trolling?

Its my fault.

I was making a serious point in a jokey way.

Kelly1 believes that his spiritual experience at Lourdes is proof that christianity is right, but people can have deeply spiritual experiences in loads of different places and for loads of different reasons.

The Bhikkhu (Buddhist monks) devote their whole lives to spirituality. If they weren't having deep and profound experiences, then why would they bother?

The abilty for people to have spiritual experiences is not proof of any cause for that spirituality.

The Bhikkhu and the Trappist (catholic) monks live similar kinds of lives and one can assume that they both experience similar kinds of spirituality, but both ascribe a different cause to the same effect.

Dog Fan

I clicked onto this thread to see what people felt about those who lose faith. Or to use the term posted by PDN, 'Apostasy'.

In Christianity we speak of God as Father, and a father who loves us. All of us. As a new father myself i am sometimes overwhelmed by the love I feel for my daughter, and nothing will shake that love.

Now, if, as catholic theology teaches us, married love and family love is a reflection of the love of God, then there's a pretty amazing concept.

I kinda find it hard to imagine a God who loves us that much giving up on us because we chose to be an apostate.

Regarding the battles between different religions: I retain my beliefs in god, and my Catholicism, but i respect the beliefs of other faiths. God is beyond our understanding, and though scripture and Church teach us of His way of reaching out to us, is it not possible that He chose to reach out to others in different ways?

Regarding the practise of religion and faith -
There's a story told of St. Francis that he was travelling with a fellow brother when they approached a small town one day. As they came up to the town, St. Francis said that 'I will teach the Gospel here today.' He passed through the town helping people, being kind, and playing with children. When they passed through, his fellow brother said, 'I thought you were going to teach the Gospel here?',
replied St. Francis, 'I did'

rockbeer

Dog Fan wrote: »

Regarding the battles between different religions: I retain my beliefs in god, and my Catholicism, but i respect the beliefs of other faiths. God is beyond our understanding, and though scripture and Church teach us of His way of reaching out to us, is it not possible that He chose to reach out to others in different ways?

Thank you for this breath of fresh air. There's nothing quite so unedifying or monstrously arrogant as members of any faith who feel they have nothing to learn from others.

If there is a god and he wanted us all to believe the same thing, why did he allow different cultures and faiths and beliefs to evolve across the planet? Do all those societies and people have no value other than as potential converts to christianity? What absurdity.

AngryHippie

Wicknight wrote: »

How do you tell that your feeling at Lourdes wasn't the devil, or another god?

Because a man in a dress who can't have sex told him so

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm asking you how do you know what you are asserting. It is relevant because you are claiming that others who assert things about their religion are working under a deception.

Do you have some better system to work out that your belief isn't a deception than they do?

I don't know anything for certain because I haven't died and come back to tell the tale. The fact is that all religions can't be correct and it's no good pretending it makes no difference what you believe in as some people would assert.

Wicknight wrote: »

So how do you know you aren't being deceived also?

I don't actually *know* very much except cogition ergo sum. I find it totally inconceivable that Jesus is a false prophet having learnt what I have about Him.

rockbeer

kelly1 wrote: »

The fact is that all religions can't be correct and it's no good pretending it makes no difference what you believe in as some people would assert.

All religions may quite possibly be 'correct' if you regard them as metaphorical attempts towards philosophical insight and understanding rather than viewing them through a true/false prism.

Also isn't it quite possible that 'god', whatever he/she/it may be, doesn't care much for any organized religion?

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't actually *know* very much except cogition ergo sum. I find it totally inconceivable that Jesus is a false prophet having learnt what I have about Him.

So you have a personal opinion. Great. This in no way demonstrates that you haven't been deceived. Why should I or anyone care about your personal opinion, no matter how strongly you hold it? A muslim (for example) with an equally strong personal opinion would 'find it inconceivable' that mohammed is false prophet.

What's the difference?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't know anything for certain because I haven't died and come back to tell the tale.

Ok, so why did you pick a religion and then criticize others for picking "false" religions?

You seem to have no reason why your religion is the real one beyond that you believe it is, and this belief seems rather difficult for you to explain.

kelly1 wrote: »

The fact is that all religions can't be correct and it's no good pretending it makes no difference what you believe in as some people would assert.

Well given you don't seem to have any method to determine that your religion is correct, and most religions have equally bad consequences for those who aren't members of the religion, it seems rather the safer option.

For example what is the difference between your God sending me to hell and any other religion's god or higher power sending me to some where equally nasty?

kelly1 wrote: »

I find it totally inconceivable that Jesus is a false prophet having learnt what I have about Him.

Well that is a bit of a silly statement.

I'm sure plenty of Christians can conceive of Jesus being either a false prophet or some form of deception, but believe otherwise for certain reasons.

The question is can these reasons be equally applied to any other prophet or religious leader (such as Mohammad) and if so why pick Jesus, and believe that the other followers of other religious leaders are being deceived by some evil force.