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Why do people lose faith?

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    #122
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    Elsewhere in the book it says that Christianity originally preached re-incarnation, and says that everyone gets more chances until they make it to heaven. What do you think?

    I would like to see their evidence for claiming that Christianity originally preached reincarnation.


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    #123
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    Supposedly Constantine had that bit removed to make people behave themselves:
    http://www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk/index-page14.html


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    #124
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    Supposedly Constantine had that bit removed to make people behave themselves:
    http://www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk/index-page14.html
    He must have used a time machine. All the New Testament manuscripts we have from before Constantine's time (over 70 0f them) read the same as the ones from after Constantine's time.


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    #125
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    The bible has been edited so many times, who knows what was in it before? What do you think of the rest, that the cruel God is the projection of a cruel mind?


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    #126
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    The bible has been edited so many times, who knows what was in it before? What do you think of the rest, that the cruel God is the projection of a cruel mind?

    Maybe you could cite some evidence for your assertion that the Bible has been edited so many times? Or are you just repeating what someone else has told you without being sceptical enough to check the facts? All the evidence I have seen demonstrates that the biblical text has been preserved with remarkable integrity. If you compare manuscripts from different centuries they are consistent.

    As for the rest, about the cruel projection? I think an author that is so lamentably ignorant of biblical manuscripts and history (the reincarnation and Constantine claims) can hardly expect me to worry about what he thinks of God.


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    #127
    aggresso
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭aggresso


    It's just a book. There are lots of books to be lamentably ignorant about.


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    #128
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    aggresso wrote: »
    It's just a book. There are lots of books to be lamentably ignorant about.

    Indeed there are. And I would take the same view in those cases.

    For example, if someone shows themselves to be lamentably ignorant about the Quran then I'm hardly going to be bothered to listen to their theories about Mohammed.


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    #129
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    PDN wrote: »
    Maybe you could cite some evidence for your assertion that the Bible has been edited so many times?

    The book I mentioned earlier has many pages listing all the editing that has been done. I don't have time to type it all out but if anyone is interested they can read the book.


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    #130
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    All the evidence I have seen demonstrates that the biblical text has been preserved with remarkable integrity. If you compare manuscripts from different centuries they are consistent.
    Yes, if you compare manuscripts from after the normalization of Constantine and the other christian Emperors and bishops of the third and fourth centuries. There are so few manuscripts from the first century or so, that a meaningful comparison cannot be made.

    Regardless of that, scholars have still recorded over 200,000 textual differences amongst the 5,600 or so early manuscripts available.

    If you're interested in reading up on the latest ideas, I do recommend "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why", by Bart Ehrman, who began his academic career as a biblical literalist, but abandoned this belief in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary. From the wikipage:
    wiki wrote:
    The book describes an early Christian environment in which the books that would later compose the New Testament were copied by hand, mostly by Christian amateurs. Ehrman concludes that various early scribes altered the New Testament texts in order to deemphasize the role of women in the early church, to unify and harmonize the different portrayals of Jesus in the four gospels, and to oppose certain heresies (such as Adoptionism). Ehrman contends that certain widely-held Christian beliefs, such about the divinity of Jesus, are associated not with the original words of scripture but with these later alterations.

    .


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    #131
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Seems a bit contradictory? How do you keep in touch with God and not believe in Him?
    The reason why I rejected Christianity wasn't to do with losing touch with God, that's what I was saying.

    I rejected Christianity because I didn't believe it was all it was cracked up to be and, therefore, I rejected the idea of a Christian God.


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    #132
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    HalloweenJack wrote: »
    I rejected Christianity because I didn't believe it was all it was cracked up to be and, therefore, I rejected the idea of a Christian God.
    OK. Any may I ask, what were you expecting from Christianity and why did you reject it?


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    #133
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    kelly1 wrote: »
    OK. Any may I ask, what were you expecting from Christianity and why did you reject it?
    I rejected Christianity because the infrastructure is full of people who act in hypocritical, un-Christian ways. I'm not going to accept a religion/organisation that does not get rid of these people.


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    #134
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    HalloweenJack wrote: »
    I rejected Christianity because the infrastructure is full of people who act in hypocritical, un-Christian ways. I'm not going to accept a religion/organisation that does not get rid of these people.
    It not true to say the Church is *full* of hypocrites. We're all hypocrities to some extent. Whether you believe it or not, the pope is the successor of Peter and the bishops are the successors of the apostles and they have the divine authority to teach in the name of Jesus and to administer the sacraments. Jesus never promised that His followers would be free from sin. So let him who is without sin cast the first stone.


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    #135
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    Ferns Report.


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    #136
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    HalloweenJack wrote: »
    Ferns Report.
    What happened in Ferns sickened me too. But I believe the Catholic Church is the same Church founded by Christ. The perpetrators of those abominable acts will be brought to justice by severe punishment in the next life in Hell or Purgatory and more so because they were charged with bringing souls to Christ. Instead they committed the worst possible crimes by defiling the young and innocent. I could never condone such crimes but I'm faithful to Christ and His Church.


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    #137
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    Well I couldn't stay in the Church after that.


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    #138
    aggresso
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭aggresso


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'm faithful to Christ and His Church.
    Why?


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    #139
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    aggresso wrote: »
    Why?
    Because as I said already, Christ founded a Church and I believe the CC is that same Church today and as a follower of Christ, I'm faithful to the Church founded by Him despite it's failings and sins. I believe the CC has the divine authority to teach the truth and to dispense His grace via the sacraments. It's like Christ is the fountain of grace and the Church has the authority to draw from this Fountain. I believe Sacred Tradition to be equally important as Sacred Scripture so I don't accept "bible only" Christianity.

    The Church also teaches the fullness of Truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit. Anything which teaches a contradictory doctrine is heresy. Many people say it's impossible to get at the truth but I disagree.


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    #140
    aggresso
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭aggresso


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Because as I said already, Christ founded a Church and I believe the CC is that same Church today and as a follower of Christ, I'm faithful to the Church founded by Him despite it's failings and sins. I believe the CC has the divine authority to teach the truth and to dispense His grace via the sacraments. It's like Christ is the fountain of grace and the Church has the authority to draw from this Fountain. I believe Sacred Tradition to be equally important as Sacred Scripture so I don't accept "bible only" Christianity.

    The Church also teaches the fullness of Truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit. Anything which teaches a contradictory doctrine is heresy. Many people say it's impossible to get at the truth but I disagree.

    But why are you faithful to Christ, rather than Buddha, Brian or Christopher Hitchens?


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    #141
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    aggresso wrote: »
    But why are you faithful to Christ, rather than Buddha, Brian or Christopher Hitchens?
    Because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He died for me and you, to save us from our sins. Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception. There are many false prophets but only one true Mediator between God and man.

    Christianity is about reality. The reality of God's love and mercy. The reality of sin and how sin and God are totally incompatible. Christianity isn't about wishy-washy notions of the next life. It's about the reality of God's commandments to us and the reality of judgment following this life. It's the difference between Heaven and Hell. Christ doesn't lure us into a false sense of security the way other religions do. Christ has told us what we must do in order to be saved. I don't think for a moment that all religions are different paths to God. And I've looked at several other paths and found them to be false and treacherous.


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    #142
    MattKid
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭MattKid


    Kelly I don't see eye to eye with you on many of your posts but the above is a top post


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    #143
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He died for me and you, to save us from our sins. Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception. There are many false prophets but only one true Mediator between God and man.

    Christianity is about reality. The reality of God's love and mercy. The reality of sin and how sin and God are totally incompatible. Christianity isn't about wishy-washy notions of the next life. It's about the reality of God's commandments to us and the reality of judgment following this life. It's the difference between Heaven and Hell. Christ doesn't lure us into a false sense of security the way other religions do. Christ has told us what we must do in order to be saved. I don't think for a moment that all religions are different paths to God. And I've looked at several other paths and found them to be false and treacherous.

    You're not really big into that whole tolerance thing are you? :rolleyes:


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    #144
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    marco_polo wrote: »
    You're not really big into that whole tolerance thing are you? :rolleyes:
    I tolerate non-Christian beliefs and how could I not? But if someone comes to me telling me that for example reincarnation is true, I'll make my beliefs on the matter clearly known!


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    #145
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He died for me and you, to save us from our sins. Christ speaks the truth and everything else is lies and deception.

    How can you possibly judge that?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Christianity isn't about wishy-washy notions of the next life. It's about the reality of God's commandments to us and the reality of judgment following this life.
    Isn't that a "wishy-washy" notion of the next life?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Christ doesn't lure us into a false sense of security the way other religions do. Christ has told us what we must do in order to be saved.

    Like your comments on the after life those two sentences are rather contradictory.

    Christianity doesn't "lure" you into a false sense of security, but it does tell you that if you do certain things you will be saved from hell and live for eternity in heaven ... ummm, do you see what you did there?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I don't think for a moment that all religions are different paths to God. And I've looked at several other paths and found them to be false and treacherous.

    And you judged that how exactly?


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    #146
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Wicknight, there's more to life than logic, reason and science. Can't you go beyond that, ever?

    Reincarnation is one example of a dangerous philosophy. If reincarnation is true, then Christ died in vain. If it's false, belief in it could very easily land one in Hell.


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    #147
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I tolerate non-Christian beliefs and how could I not? But if someone comes to me telling me that for example reincarnation is true, I'll make my beliefs on the matter clearly known!

    You are more than entitled to express your views and beliefs but the the use of phrases such as "false and treacherous" is unnecessary and inflamatory language, and doesn't exactly help you come across in a good light.


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    #148
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Reincarnation is one example of a dangerous philosophy. If reincarnation is true, then Christ died in vain. If it's false, belief in it could very easily land one in Hell.

    Only if you interpret everything through the prism of christianity.

    (Aside: everyone dies in vain.)


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    #149
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    there's more to life than logic, reason and science.
    Nobody ever said there wasn't, though most religious people seem to think that atheists think there isn't.

    Closing your eyes to the reality of the world you can see, to replace it with the imaginary irreality of one you can't is unwise. A reasonable destination is rarely reached via an unreasonable road.


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    #150
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    robindch wrote: »
    Nobody ever said there wasn't, though most religious people seem to think that atheists think there isn't.

    Closing your eyes to the reality of the world you can see, to replace it with the imaginary irreality of one you can't is unwise. A reasonable destination is rarely reached via an unreasonable road.
    My eyes certainly aren't closed to the reality of this world around us. I don't know what gave you that idea. :confused:


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    #151
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Wicknight, there's more to life than logic, reason and science....

    Prove it!


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