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Why do people lose faith?
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RealEstateKing wrote: »And anyone who cant see that hell and heaven are quite plainly inventions designed to appeal to the imaginations of simple-minded 4th century peasants, has to be missing a few nuts and bolts in the cranial department...
You know the way you as a Christian feel when you see Ganesh the elephant God? You think "Oh come on, yis must be having a laugh!"
Try applying the same sceptical rigour to your own and you'll find he falls apart quite quickly.
Careful, read the charter.
(I'm aware that SW's statement was meant as an insult, but leave it to the mods)0 -
RealEstateKing wrote: »And anyone who cant see that hell and heaven are quite plainly inventions designed to appeal to the imaginations of simple-minded 4th century peasants, has to be missing a few nuts and bolts in the cranial department...
You know the way you as a Christian feel when you see Ganesh the elephant God? You think "Oh come on, yis must be having a laugh!"
Try applying the same sceptical rigour to your own and you'll find he falls apart quite quickly.
To assert that Christians who believe in heaven and hell are mentally deficient is a breach of the forum charter. Since you're a fairly new poster it's a yellow card this time. If you want to keep posting here then please read the charter to avoid the next card being red.0 -
But I was merely responding to a post where it was indicated that it was mentally deficient to do the opposite.0
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Fanny Cradock wrote: »Still, I could well imagine if God granted mankind the ability to walk though walls you would be arguing that the ability to not walk through walls proves that God gave us no free will.
Actually, a closer analogy would be if God had given us the ability to walk through walls and then told us if we ever used that ability, we'd burn in hell forever.
God allegedly gives us 'free will' and then tells us if we use it we will suffer eternal torture.0 -
Actually, a closer analogy would be if God had given us the ability to walk through walls and then told us if we ever used that ability, we'd burn in hell forever.
God allegedly gives us 'free will' and then tells us if we use it we will suffer eternal torture.
A closer analogy would be if God had given us the ability to walk through walls and then told us that we should use that ability for good. If we walk through walls to save people trapped in a burning building then that would be good. However, if we walk through walls to get into young girls bedrooms in order to rape them then that would incur judgment.0 -
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A closer analogy would be if God had given us the ability to walk through walls and then told us that we should use that ability for good. If we walk through walls to save people trapped in a burning building then that would be good. However, if we walk through walls to get into young girls bedrooms in order to rape them then that would incur judgment.
That isn't a closer analogy.
There are plenty of abilities or lack of abilities that have no good use.
What is the good use of us not being able to breath under water? What is the good use of having skin that is easily damaged by degrees of temperature? What is the good use of not being able to see in the dark?0 -
If I have a child, I am the originator of that child (or half of it anyway) but I do not own the child, nor do I have complete control over what it does or what happens to it.Soul Winner wrote: »If God exists then He is the originator of everything, and therefore the owner of everything and therefore the one who can choose to do whatever He wants with whatever He has originated, including us.
Simply creating something says nothing about the ability to control it afterwards. 'God' might have set off a chain reaction billions of years ago without the ability to control what happens afterwards.
Seeing as you're using gardening as an analogy, what do you do with the vegetables or fruits in that garden when they're ripe? Thats right, you eat them. You certainly don't 'reward' them for managing to grow into fruits and vegetables.When you weed out your garden what do you do with the weeds? You throw them out or burn them. What is no good will be burned. Only the faithful will inherit the Kingdom. Those whose fruits are generated by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which said Holy Spirit can only come in you by faith in God’s Word of promise.
But he is subject to some laws. Even Christians admit that God cannot contradict itself and some christians say God cannot lie. Who made these 'laws'?If God is, then He is not subject to the laws that He has subjected us to.
Is there another god that has authority over this one? the truth god?
Of course not. Christians want to believe that god cannot lie because if he could, then it would be a massive blow to their entire belief system (if god can lie, then its entirely possible that he lied about the whole afterlife thing) There is absolutely no basis for Christians to believe that God is telling the truth. (even leaving aside the multiple separations the information has to pass through between scripture and the source of that scripture where humans could have lied or made mistakes)
Its not about laws, its about right and wrong. Some things are always wrong no matter who does them or what the law says. It is inherently wrong to rape a child. It is inherently wrong to torture something for your own pleasure. Even if God did these things, they would still be wrong.Just because it is unlawful for us to kill does not mean that it is unlawful for Him to kill. He makes the laws. Do we now subject the maker of the laws to these very same laws? By what authority do we do that?
Jesus is said to have died without ever committing a sin. That was in human terms, not godly 'he can do anything he likes' terms. If jesus went around murdering and raping people, would you still think he died without sin? (according to your logic that everything god does by definition must be right)
Actually, we do have a fair idea what life for early humans was like. We have discovered this through science, not holy books. Science allows us to explore things that happened in the past 'on the other side of the fence'. Only willful ignorance prevents you from sharing in that exploration.We have free will, but only within the confines of our present abilities. Just like a swimmer in a fast current can splash around in any direction he likes but he is not strong enough to stop the direction current will eventfully bring him. Maybe before the fall we had the ability to fly who knows? Maybe part of the punishment for sin and part of the stripping of the dominion over all things from us was to take away whatever supernatural abilities we possessed before the fall. We will never know what it was like before the fall because we are born on that other side of the fence, with the deck stacked against us.
We certainly never had the ability to fly or any other supernatural abilities. We know this because the human body is physically incapable of flying under its own power. (lots of people died trying to prove this wrong) Imagining a superman style adam is pretty laughable, its not something an intelligent and mature adult should be taking seriously.
We weren't, adam never existed, and the common evolutionary ancestor for homo sapiens certainly did not carry all of us around in his loins. And even if he did, it is totally unfair to punish the offspring of someone for the activities of his ancestor that he did thousands of years before they were even born.From our point of view we did nothing wrong, but if we were in Adam's loins when he sinned then as penalty came upon Him it also fell on us.
It used to be that the debt of a father fell on his son (through intergenerational slavery and bonded labour) I don't know how much of this was justified through reference to religious texts, but thankfully, we've moved past such barbarism in western democracies.
The moon has glory? Its just a huge rock that separated from earth billions of years ago. The only 'glory' it has is gravity and its ability to reflect light from the sun.I don’t know what Heaven will be like but I believe it has a glory all of its own, just like the Earth, Moon and Sun have a certain type of glory different from each other but all the same gloriously beautiful.0 -
RealEstateKing wrote: »I love the slippery 'reasoning' Christians use:
(1) God can kill and it's not murder, cause he's God and the rules aren't the same for him.
Ok...with you so far and then....
(2) God can't eliminate suffering without eliminating free will.
Well, um, didnt you just state that he's God and the rules dont apply to him? So surely God CAN eliminate suffering without eliminiting free will, I mean, he's GOD fer chrissakes, the Big Honcho, Mr Omnipotent?
You talking to me? Don't know what you're talking about buddy. Maybe a re-phrase or a re-read of my posts might help. All I'm saying is that if the God that is revealed in the Bible actually exists then it doesn't matter what you think of Him. Whether you think His methods are good or evil really doesn't matter. He is not going to bow to your level of what you think He should be. Now you don't have to like that kind of God but if He exists then it doesn't matter what you like. I never said that I believe that He was going to get rid of free will. I said that I didn’t know if that’s what that verse in Daniel means. Read it again.0 -
Careful, read the charter.
(I'm aware that SW's statement was meant as an insult, but leave it to the mods)
Are you guys serious? We Christians get put down all the time on this our own forum for believing in God, like it is the same as believing in Santa or the tooth fairy and yous don't mind that at all. Oh but when we give you a taste of your own medicine it is cry to the mods time. Give me a break!0 -
We always have free will even in Heaven. In God's universe, there are two ultimate destinations for all of us and there's nothing anyone can do change that. Our destination is our own choice.StormWarrior wrote: »So you agree that God is not too bothered about respecting our free will?
God you are cynical! Our free will isn't removed and our memories aren't erased. When/if we see friends and family in Hell, we will fully understand God's justice in sending them there. You're looking at God in human terms and so you don't understand the enormity of sin. You don't understand what it means to reject God who is the ultimate Good.Well it seems to me that God will remove our free will, wipe our memories of our loved ones and friends who aren't in heaven so we don't mind they aren't there, and then make us "understand" the enormity of sin (not sure how that works, but it is hard not to imagine a mafia don). He will then put us in a state of perfect happiness, which sounds very disturbing.
Again, your perceived notion of Heaven is wrong.Heaven seems more like the drug in "A Brave New World" that just puts people in a coma of bliss, than actual proper existence.
At least in hell you still seem to be "you", you still seem to have all your memories and personality and awareness.
Can you think of nothing greater than a PS3? Can you not imagine anything better that what the world has to offer?Why would I think again? Does it say in the Bible that people have PlayStation 3s in heaven? Or does God simply remove our ability to be bored?
What alternative would you suggest? You don't understand what it means to sin against God what rejecting Him means. Our whole life is a pilgrimage towards God's ultimate glorious plan for us. Of course you can turn your back on this.Please explain why torturing us for eternity in a lake of fire is the only (permanite) alternative to forcing us into heaven?
Yes I see where your coming from, in human terms. But you don't understand sin. You don't understand what it means to offend an infinitely Holy God, who created you to be like Him. His plan for all of us it to become like Him and share in His divinity and you want to reject that?!?! Remember we are supposed to be temples of the Holy Spirit and grave sin causes the Spirit to leave.Its like saying "Well you can come with us to DisneyLand or we can shoot you in the head, your choice? Whats that? You don't want to go to DisneyLand. Right, bulliet to the brain it is"
St. Faustina was enlightened by the Holy Spirit on the wickedness of sin and said this:O my Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend You by the least sin.
Noel.0 -
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RealEstateKing wrote: »You know the way you as a Christian feel when you see Ganesh the elephant God? You think "Oh come on, yis must be having a laugh!"
Try applying the same sceptical rigour to your own and you'll find he falls apart quite quickly.
I for one never expressed any opinion in regards to another religion on this forum unless I was specifically asked to do so by a poster. My opinion of other religions is irrelevant to this discussion. How do you know I don't have the utmost respect for those who believe in Ganesh? You don't, so stop trying to hoodwink irrelevancies into this discussion in order to support your position. And if you want to know I have applied much scepticism to my beliefs over the years. No religion in the world is subject to as much of it as Christianity and it is still standing. Must have something going for it. One of the reasons I come in here is to have my beliefs challenged. I can find now better method to test your beliefs than to try and find out the answers to the questions genuine doubters and sceptics have. I think Depeche Mode asks the best questions. He has me stumped on a few I'm checking out at the moment, but nothing that will make me lose my faith, just some things are hard to get to the bottom of. I think all beliefs should be tested to the max. If they are really based on genuine truth then they will stand up to it. If God exists then He is not afraid of truth. He is truth.0 -
Not torturing people for all eternity. its really quite simple.
What alternative would you suggest?
poor god. I feel so sorry for him. I finally understand, yes, yes he is totally justified in burning me for all of eternity in a lake of fire just because I don't accept the extremely unconvincing evidence that he has given us for his own existence.Yes I see where your coming from, in human terms. But you don't understand sin. You don't understand what it means to offend an infinitely Holy God, who created you to be like Him.
God created it that way, he is responsible for everything, he can only blame himself. (but he doesn't, he tortures humans for all eternity for his own mistakes, very very petty)His plan for all of us it to become like Him and share in His divinity and you want to reject that?!?! Remember we are supposed to be temples of the Holy Spirit and grave sin causes the Spirit to leave.0 -
Do you believe there is any evidence or any information at all that would cause you to lose your faith?Soul Winner wrote: »I for one never expressed any opinion in regards to another religion on this forum unless I was specifically asked to do so by a poster. My opinion of other religions is irrelevant to this discussion. How do you know I don't have the utmost respect for those who believe in Ganesh? You don't, so stop trying to hoodwink irrelevancies into this discussion in order to support your position. And if you want to know I have applied much scepticism to my beliefs over the years. No religion in the world is subject to as much of it as Christianity and it is still standing. Must have something going for it. One of the reasons I come in here is to have my beliefs challenged. I can find now better method to test your beliefs than to try and find out the answers to the questions genuine doubters and sceptics have. I think Depeche Mode asks the best questions. He has me stumped on a few I'm checking out at the moment, but nothing that will make me lose my faith, just some things are hard to get to the bottom of. I think all beliefs should be tested to the max. If they are really based on genuine truth then they will stand up to it. If God exists then He is not afraid of truth. He is truth.0 -
You'll get what you deserve. Only the perfectly pure can exist in God's presence and exclusion from God's presence is Hell. You will certainly understand this when you die. A person in a state of mortal would rather go to Hell that Heaven because darkness cannot tolerate light as scripture says. Ugliness detests beauty.Not torturing people for all eternity. its really quite simple.
poor god. I feel so sorry for him. I finally understand, yes, yes he is totally justified in burning me for all of eternity in a lake of fire just because I don't accept the extremely unconvincing evidence that he has given us for his own existence.
God created it that way, he is responsible for everything, he can only blame himself. (but he doesn't, he tortures humans for all eternity for his own mistakes, very very petty)0 -
Its not a preference or a choice. I do not believe either of them exist.You'll get what you deserve. Only the perfectly pure can exist in God's presence and exclusion from God's presence is Hell. You will certainly understand this when you die. A person in a state of mortal would rather go to Hell that Heaven because darkness cannot tolerate light as scripture says. Ugliness detests beauty.
If you suspect your wife of cheating on you and you find love letters to her from another man hidden in a dresser, you might 'want' to believe there is another explanation, but wanting to believe something does not mean you should believe something. The consequences of not believing her could mean the end of your marriage, but the consequences of believing her even though she is lying could mean your wife loses respect for you and treats you like a fool for the rest of your life.
Your wife might feel hurt that you don't believe her explanation (that she's, um, secretly writing a novel and this is part of her research) but it's certainly not your fault if you can't bring yourself to accept it.
The evidence for the Christian god is very flimsy and I don't believe it. I could pretend to believe it but some Christians consider this to be just as bad if not worse than non belief. 'Forcing' myself to believe something that I don't really believe would probably result in a mental breakdown sooner or later.0 -
The evidence for the Christian god is very flimsy and I don't believe it. I could pretend to believe it but some Christians consider this to be just as bad if not worse than non belief. 'Forcing' myself to believe something that I don't really believe would probably result in a mental breakdown sooner or later.Luke 11:9 And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.
That is Jesus' promise to you. I strongly recommend that you read some biographies of the saints for ideas as to just how much God can act in a person's life.0 -
If I have a child, I am the originator of that child (or half of it anyway) but I do not own the child, nor do I have complete control over what it does or what happens to it.
You don't produce children you re-produce them. There is a difference. There are two words in the Hebrew for create. On is used to create something out of something already created and the other is to create from nothing at all. Can you create in the sense of the latter? Can you choose the design of your child. Can you choose the eye colour. You are not in control at all. If God exists then He is the true originator and owner and therefore has the right to do whatever He pleases with what He originates and the thing which He originates can decide that it doesn't like what the originator is doing but it is not the one with the power to do anything about is it?Simply creating something says nothing about the ability to control it afterwards. 'God' might have set off a chain reaction billions of years ago without the ability to control what happens afterwards.
I believe this universe was created and is ordered and maintained by God’s Word. How? I don’t know.Seeing as you're using gardening as an analogy, what do you do with the vegetables or fruits in that garden when they're ripe? Thats right, you eat them. You certainly don't 'reward' them for managing to grow into fruits and vegetables.
No but you do still throw out the garbage. Now to a gardener the garbage is defined by that which has no good use to him. To God He has defined what is no good to Him and that is those with no faith in Him. And as He is the originator then He can choose that to be the garbage if He so pleases. You might not like that kind of God but I don't see Him checking opinion polls about it.But he is subject to some laws. Even Christians admit that God cannot contradict itself and some christians say God cannot lie. Who made these 'laws'?
The 'cannot lie' attribute of Gods is just that, an attribute. It is not that He is not allowed to lie. He just isn't a liar. If He were a liar then there would be no basis for faith. But anyone who has taken the time to practice faith in His word knows that He is faithful to it. There are just some things you cannot know until you have tried them out. God wants the attitude that Job eventually got. "Though He slay me yet will I trust Him." I’m not there yet but I, like Paul, press towards the mark.Is there another god that has authority over this one? the truth god?
Of course not. Christians want to believe that god cannot lie because if he could, then it would be a massive blow to their entire belief system (if god can lie, then its entirely possible that he lied about the whole afterlife thing)
That is very true. If God could be found out to be a liar then yes there would be no basis for faith in Him. Is this yet another argument form silence or can you prove this to be the case? Have you found an instance where you know God was lying about something? Let us have it and be done with this discussion.There is absolutely no basis for Christians to believe that God is telling the truth. (even leaving aside the multiple separations the information has to pass through between scripture and the source of that scripture where humans could have lied or made mistakes)
Well assuming He exists at all then He has revealed two ways in which we can operate. 1. To trust in what we see rather than in what He says. or 2. To trust what He says. If you ever take the time to study Gods Word you will notice a pattern of faithfulness from beginning to end in His word, especially with regards to the promises He made to Abraham. That through His seed the whole world would be blessed. Christ came from the seed of Abraham and through Him the whole world is blessed because He died for the whole world and the whole world’s sins are forgiven. The only reason why some have not forgiveness of sins is because they reject this provision of Christ. That's their prerogative. If they want forgiveness then accept that they are forgiven through Him. That they don't, results in them staying in their sins.Its not about laws, its about right and wrong. Some things are always wrong no matter who does them or what the law says. It is inherently wrong to rape a child. It is inherently wrong to torture something for your own pleasure. Even if God did these things, they would still be wrong.
In some countries it is wrong to behead people yet in others it is ok. Depends on the culture. There is no universal definition of sin. If there is an originator then what that originator says is wrong, is wrong. Not what the product of that originator thinks should be wrong. Rape might be wrong but it is not wrong because you said it is.Jesus is said to have died without ever committing a sin. That was in human terms, not godly 'he can do anything he likes' terms. If Jesus went around murdering and raping people, would you still think he died without sin? (according to your logic that everything god does by definition must be right)
The Bible points out that God emptied Himself and took upon Himself the likeness of sinning flesh. Jesus Christ was the servant of God the Father. He said my meat is to do the will of the Father who sent me. He was constrained down a particular path that only He could go. When He prayed in the garden “if it be possible let this cup pass from me never the less not my will be done but thine" that was a further emptying. The scripture says that He was obedient unto death. He was subject to the law that God subjected us to. In order for Him to get rid of its hold on us and to be faithful to His own word that "for sin comes death" he had to fulfil it in the flesh of man in order that all flesh can be delivered from its hold and ultimate condemnation. The law required that only one near of kin could redeem a lost inheritance, that is why He was kinned to us, made flesh and blood as we are. We cannot chose to not be flesh and blood but He could. And He chose to take on this flesh and blood and fulfilled the perfect law and to take the penalty of death for those who cannot keep it. So no, Jesus could not have gone around and raped and murder and yet still be called the spotless lamb slain from the foundations of the world that had to be without blemish as the Old Testament sacrificial lambs had to be without blemish or spot. If Jesus had thought a wrong thought once in His lifetime then His sacrifice could not have been accepted as adequate in the presence of the Father when He ascended and presented His sacrifice to Him. Not only was it accepted as adequate but it is forever adequate. That is why He is now seated (a picture of work finished) at the right hand of God. And you want to tell me that God is not faithful to His Word? He is faithful, faithful to His own hurt. Would you out of love for another send your only begotten son to pay the penalty for evil people's sins in order that they might have forgiveness? God's goodness is incomprehensible and the suggestion that He is a liar can only begotten from the pit of Hell.Actually, we do have a fair idea what life for early humans was like. We have discovered this through science, not holy books. Science allows us to explore things that happened in the past 'on the other side of the fence'. Only willful ignorance prevents you from sharing in that exploration.
Go on humour me. Tell me about this other side of the fence so. I'm all ears.We certainly never had the ability to fly or any other supernatural abilities. We know this because the human body is physically incapable of flying under its own power. (lots of people died trying to prove this wrong) Imagining a superman style adam is pretty laughable, its not something an intelligent and mature adult should be taking seriously.
A perfect example of the subtle put downs I was talking about earlier. How is it ok for you guys to put us down but when we do it you run home to Mammy moderator?We weren't, adam never existed, and the common evolutionary ancestor for homo sapiens certainly did not carry all of us around in his loins. And even if he did, it is totally unfair to punish the offspring of someone for the activities of his ancestor that he did thousands of years before they were even born.
Who said God has to be fair? You're cultural upbringing, you're frame of reference that you are trapped in tells you that. God doesn't have to be fair in order to be God. Your concept of "fair" is inherited culturally.It used to be that the debt of a father fell on his son (through intergenerational slavery and bonded labour) I don't know how much of this was justified through reference to religious texts, but thankfully, we've moved past such barbarism in western democracies.
Ah yes the western civilised democratic world. What a model standard for perfect living.The moon has glory? Its just a huge rock that separated from earth billions of years ago. The only 'glory' it has is gravity and its ability to reflect light from the sun.
I think the Moon is quite beautiful, but you see what you want to see I suppose. As a side road: Can you tell why the moon doesn't rotate on its axis? Strange how something which supposedly separated from the earth billions of years go can still be shaped spherically and never moves except to orbit this beautiful planet of ours. Why does it not rotate on its axis? Surely the momentum of such a separation would cause the moon to spin. Why no spinning? Just curious not relevant to this discussion I know.0 -
Where would you prefer to live, and in what time?Soul Winner wrote: »Ah yes the western civilised democratic world. What a model standard for perfect living.
Er, the moon does spin on its axis -- at exactly the same rate as it rotates about the earth -- that's why we see the same view all the time. You've been reading creationists on astronomy again, haven't you...?Soul Winner wrote: »As a side road: Can you tell why the moon doesn't rotate on its axis? Strange how something which supposedly separated from the earth billions of years go can still be shaped spherically and never moves except to orbit this beautiful planet of ours. Why does it not rotate on its axis? Surely the momentum of such a separation would cause the moon to spin. Why no spinning? Just curious not relevant to this discussion I know.
<cough, cough>Soul Winner wrote: »I think the Moon is quite beautiful, but you see what you want to see I suppose.
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Do you believe there is any evidence or any information at all that would cause you to lose your faith?
If I believed that then I wouldn't have the faith I have would I? There was one time when I was puzzled over something Jesus said to the women after the resurrection. He said do not touch me, I have not yet ascended to the father. Yet in another appearance to His disciples he allows them to touch Him. Did this make me loose my faith? No, but it bugged me fro ages. My faith said that if God is truth then there is an answer to this. What I failed to realise at this time was that the problem arose only in my mind. It was not in the scripture. Jesus could have made many ascensions after the resurrection between the time He spoke to the woman and the time he appeared to his disciples. In fact He tells the woman that that is what He was going to do and to tell His disciples about it. After more study I also found out why the woman was not allowed to touch Him until He had presented Himself to His Father. It was to do with an Old Testament Law. The High Priest could not be touched until He offered the sacrifice in the Holy of Hollies in the Tabernacle in the Old Testament otherwise he would have to do it all over again. Once the sacrifice was accepted and the priest came out only then could he be touched. Anyway that's just one example of something that bugged me. What I usually find when I delve deeper into things like this is more times than not I come away with an even stronger faith than before.0 -
We always have free will even in Heaven. In God's universe, there are two ultimate destinations for all of us and there's nothing anyone can do change that. Our destination is our own choice.
I can't quite see how this can be classed as free will though. It's basically, "Believe that this dude died for your sins, or else burn forever in eternal torture."
Firstly, one cannot make oneself believe, and secondly, it's still not much of a choice. If God was respecting my free will I would have an alternative to heaven or hell. Really, if God was respecting my free will he would have (somehow) asked me if I even want to be created in the first place. To paraphrase a section in a book called "The Mystic Christ" (forget who wrote it now) the general Christian idea of God is that of a bloke who created these sentient creatures, put them in a world rigged so that they would fail his tests and then torture them for eternity as punishment. Either one believes in Jesus and obeys Gods laws, or they suffer horribly. I can't see where free will comes into it. Is it free will for me to try and convince myself to believe in Jesus and love God, or choose to burn instead? I choose neither! Where's my free will?0 -
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What alternative would you suggest? You don't understand what it means to sin against God what rejecting Him means. Our whole life is a pilgrimage towards God's ultimate glorious plan for us. Of course you can turn your back on this.
The alternative could be that God just wipes out the existence of the rest of us. I don't have a problem with this and it seemes fairer than hell. Once again, if we don't understand what rejecting God means, why should we suffer for it? Of course we can turn our back on God, but only if we get burned forever instead.0 -
Well no-one who leaves this earth is perfectly pure, you will be cleansed by purgatory. So why not cleanse everyone? when they die, they can get the evidence that god is real and be offered purgatory followed by heaven. Alternatively, their existence can be wiped out. I still haven't seen any convincing argument on this forum for the existence of an everlasting hell.You'll get what you deserve. Only the perfectly pure can exist in God's presence and exclusion from God's presence is Hell. You will certainly understand this when you die. A person in a state of mortal would rather go to Hell that Heaven because darkness cannot tolerate light as scripture says. Ugliness detests beauty.0 -
That is Jesus' promise to you. I strongly recommend that you read some biographies of the saints for ideas as to just how much God can act in a person's life.
What of the people who knock and another God reveals himself, like Allah? Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, after all.0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »Are you guys serious? We Christians get put down all the time on this our own forum for believing in God
If anyone on this forum said that someone believing in God "has to be missing a few nuts and bolts in the cranial department" they would be given a warning or possibly banned.Soul Winner wrote: »Oh but when we give you a taste of your own medicine it is cry to the mods time. Give me a break!
No one cried "mods time" ... I warned RealEstateKing not to respond in like to your insult, as he would be breathing the charter, which was confirmed by the warning he received from PDN.0 -
Where would you prefer to live, and in what time?
Haven't thought about that much. Mars when it was supposedly habitable maybe?
You see what happens when we judge things from our limited perspective? If you could see my faceEr, the moon does spin on its axis -- at exactly the same rate as it rotates about the earth -- that's why we see the same view all the time. You've been reading creationists on astronomy again, haven't you...?
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No one cried "mods time" ... I warned RealEstateKing not to respond in like to your insult, as he would be breathing the charter, which was confirmed by the warning he received from PDN.
If Soulwinner had made such an insult he would have received an infraction. I believe that his statement was that anyone who chose hell over heaven, believing both to be real and being aware of their nature, would be a few fries short of a happy meal (or words to that effect).0 -
It still doesn't follow that a creator must necessarily have the ability to control his creation.Soul Winner wrote: »You don't produce children you re-produce them. There is a difference. There are two words in the Hebrew for create. On is used to create something out of something already created and the other is to create from nothing at all. Can you create in the sense of the latter? Can you choose the design of your child. Can you choose the eye colour. You are not in control at all. If God exists then He is the true originator and owner and therefore has the right to do whatever He pleases with what He originates and the thing which He originates can decide that it doesn't like what the originator is doing but it is not the one with the power to do anything about is it?
One thing I can create is an idea or a piece of Art. But once I release that creation into the world I suddenly lose control over it. (it could be stolen, it could be used out of context or it could inspire someone else to have a different idea that I might not agree with)
There is no logical necessity for a creator to be all powerful over the creation.
The universe is ordered by physical forces. Whether or not god designed them is for a different debate.I believe this universe was created and is ordered and maintained by God’s Word. How? I don’t know.
Once the laws of physics are there, there is no need for anymore intervention, the universe can operate by itself. God doesn't interfere. There is no evidence (outside of the bible) of any miracles or any divine intervention that can not be explained using science.
Yes, I throw out the rubbish, (or recycle it into compost) I certainly don't put it in an alternate existence and punish it for all eternity.No but you do still throw out the garbage. Now to a gardener the garbage is defined by that which has no good use to him. To God He has defined what is no good to Him and that is those with no faith in Him. And as He is the originator then He can choose that to be the garbage if He so pleases. You might not like that kind of God but I don't see Him checking opinion polls about it.
If there are slugs eating my lettuce I kill them or find a way to stop them from getting to the lettuce.. I don't torture them as punishment, that would be cruel (and serve no purpose)
We can't prove God is lying because none of the claims can be tested in any way. But believing promises about future rewards without any real basis usually results in disappointment.The 'cannot lie' attribute of Gods is just that, an attribute. It is not that He is not allowed to lie. He just isn't a liar. If He were a liar then there would be no basis for faith. But anyone who has taken the time to practice faith in His word knows that He is faithful to it. There are just some things you cannot know until you have tried them out. God wants the attitude that Job eventually got. "Though He slay me yet will I trust Him." I’m not there yet but I, like Paul, press towards the mark.
That is very true. If God could be found out to be a liar then yes there would be no basis for faith in Him. Is this yet another argument form silence or can you prove this to be the case? Have you found an instance where you know God was lying about something? Let us have it and be done with this discussion.
God could easily provide concrete evidence of his own existence and end all of this uncertainty and save billions of souls from damnnation but he chooses not to.
It sounds like a con to me.
You can find fulfilled prophesies in almost any book if you use hindsight to interpret passages to coincide with events you know took place.Well assuming He exists at all then He has revealed two ways in which we can operate. 1. To trust in what we see rather than in what He says. or 2. To trust what He says. If you ever take the time to study Gods Word you will notice a pattern of faithfulness from beginning to end in His word, especially with regards to the promises He made to Abraham. That through His seed the whole world would be blessed. Christ came from the seed of Abraham and through Him the whole world is blessed because He died for the whole world and the whole world’s sins are forgiven. The only reason why some have not forgiveness of sins is because they reject this provision of Christ. That's their prerogative. If they want forgiveness then accept that they are forgiven through Him. That they don't, results in them staying in their sins.
A prophesy is absolutely useless if it doesn't predict things before they happen.
There is a book out that claims the Bible prophecised 9/11. No it didn't cause 9/11 came as a complete surprise and wasn't predicted by any bible scholars before it happened.
It is always wrong to kill an innocent person, even in places where capital punishment is routinely used. There is no culture in the history of human civilisation that would consider killing the first born son in every family to be a morally right thing to do. (there may be some who might consider it an effective strategy, but nobody would argue that it is morally right)In some countries it is wrong to behead people yet in others it is ok. Depends on the culture. There is no universal definition of sin. If there is an originator then what that originator says is wrong, is wrong. Not what the product of that originator thinks should be wrong. Rape might be wrong but it is not wrong because you said it is.
I was referring to things that are not available to our empirical senses. Through science we know what the sun is made out of. According to religion, the sun is just something created by god for the benefit of people. A religious attitude would be 'We can't possibly understand what the sun is, made out of, lets just take it on faith that its a glorious gift from god and use it as proof that god loves us. A scientist will look for ways to find measure and examine the sun so we can understand it better than our 5 senses should allow.Go on humour me. Tell me about this other side of the fence so. I'm all ears.
I never called for a moderator.
A perfect example of the subtle put downs I was talking about earlier. How is it ok for you guys to put us down but when we do it you run home to Mammy moderator?
Justice and fairness are intertwined. It is not justice to hold someone responsible for something he/she had absolutely no control over. It is not just to punish an innocent for the crime of someone else.Who said God has to be fair? You're cultural upbringing, you're frame of reference that you are trapped in tells you that. God doesn't have to be fair in order to be God. Your concept of "fair" is inherited culturally.
We're an awful lot better than society of the old testament with all its stonings and animal sacrificesAh yes the western civilised democratic world. What a model standard for perfect living.
beauty and glory aren't the same things.I think the Moon is quite beautiful, but you see what you want to see I suppose.
[/quote] As a side road: Can you tell why the moon doesn't rotate on its axis? [/quote]
It does rotate, it just happens to rotate in such a way that makes it always show the same side to the earth.. It might seem like an amazing coincidence, but it's actually as a result of the earths gravity (the earth has a 'tidal' influence on the moon just like the moon has a tidal influence on the earth and this caused the moons rotation to become synchronised with the rotation of the earth.
There you go. Now can you tell me the reason why you think God would design the moon so that it always shows the same side to the earth? What benefit does that give to humans?
Large Celestial bodies are spherical because of gravity.Strange how something which supposedly separated from the earth billions of years go can still be shaped spherically and never moves except to orbit this beautiful planet of ours.
Gravity pulls everything towards the center of the object. Large objects behave like a fluid (cause of pressure and weight, the stone and metals aren't strong enough to resist the force of gravity. If there was a very high mountain that distorted the shape of the moon, the weight at the base of the mountain would be so heavy it would crush the rocks and the mountain would collapse.
I hope my explanation was satisfactory.Why does it not rotate on its axis? Surely the momentum of such a separation would cause the moon to spin. Why no spinning? Just curious not relevant to this discussion I know.0 -
If Soulwinner had made such an insult he would have received an infraction. I believe that his statement was that anyone who chose hell over heaven, believing both to be real and being aware of their nature, would be a few fries short of a happy meal (or words to that effect).
I said I would choose hell over heaven, and gave the reasons why
Soul Winner responded saying that anyone who would choose hell over heaven is a few cans short of a six pack, a few fries short of a happy meal, a few Christians short of a Crusade. etc etc
Now I don't really care, which is why I didn't complain to you or Asia. I certainly see that as a mild insult, I understand that he thinks such a positions nuts and that anyone who holds such a position is either lying to themselves or a bit crazy.
But lets not pretend it wasn't what it was.0 -
Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. Can't imagine it would be much fun with just the odd bacterium for company though, if even that. No nightlife either and only what I produce myself for wine and beer. Nah, doesn't do it for me!Soul Winner wrote: »Mars when it was supposedly habitable maybe?
That was rather my point -- I can feel the waves of embarrassment from here -- you should try some real science books instead of Ham's and Snelling's frightful nonsense. There are far more interesting things in the universe than stationary moonsSoul Winner wrote: »You see what happens when we judge things from our limited perspective? 0 -
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I just found the book I mentioned earlier, "The Mystic Christ." It's by Ethan Walker and very interesting. I would like to quote a bit that is relevant to the discussions that have been going on in this forum lately:
In Hinduism and Buddhism, the concept of reaping what we sow is called karma. God is not seen as vengeful and punishing but rather compassionate and merciful, waiting to respond to our slightest whimper and call. The jealous, tyrannical god who is perpetually punishing, smiting and casting the naughty into the sulphurus flames of eternal damnation is simply a projection from the minds of humans who are themselves jealous, cruel and punishing. God is love. God is compassionate and watches our suffering with sadness, not anger or contempt. He does not even go so far as to say "I told you so," because that would defy God's eternal spirit of love. God loves us intensely. He has only care and concern that we are ignorant and suffer because of our ignorance. It is a mistake to say that God angrily metes out punishment to sinners. Only egos do that.
Elsewhere in the book it says that Christianity originally preached re-incarnation, and says that everyone gets more chances until they make it to heaven. What do you think?0
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