Why do people lose faith?

Akrasia

If the holy spirit is so powerful, and if people who have 'faith' believe that the holy spirit communicates directly with them, then why do believers lose their faith? (it happens all the time)

How can someone be 'touched' by the holy spirit, yet abandon that belief later on in life? (It seems to make no sense.)

I'm not just talking about people who go through severe trauma, where their entire family is killed when a lightning rod crushes them after falling off a church.

What is Gods position regarding people who devoted their entire lives to God, but have a crises of belief in their later years?
If you spend 99.9999% of your life believing in god, but you die suddenly in a freak accident in an instant when you rejected belief in God (perhaps during a car accident in which you witness the innocent children of your devoted devout sister suffering a slow agonising death) do you automoatially suffer the same 'punishment' of all 'unbelievers' or (for catholics who missed a confession of a sin)

Could Mother Theresa get rejected by god for rejecting God in her later years while Hitler could gain admission to heaven for 'finding God' in his last moments in his bunker just before he knew he was going to die.

PDN

Moderating Note
Different Christians may answer this differently according to their theological beliefs. I would suggest to other Christian posters that they don't turn this into a discussion on the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine of Calvinism. Posts that are just rehashing that argument rather than addressing the OP's questions will be moved to an existing OSAS thread.
PDN

Akrasia, I would want to clarify what you mean by 'abandoning belief'. Christian faith is more than just how strongly you happen to believe at any given moment. Faith is much more about making a choice to trust and follow Jesus Christ as it is intellectual assent to His existence. So, if we take someone such as Mother Theresa, who apparently struggled with doubts all her life, this does not mean that she was drifting in and out of a state of salvation depending on how strong her belief was at any given moment. Think of it as being a bit like a marriage. Every good and long lasting marriage will include days where one spouse didn't actually feel like they were head over heels with their partner, but they remained faithful to the vows and commitment they had made.

So, by 'abandoning belief' I assume you are talking about actual apostasy - where someone makes a determined decision that they will not be a Christian any more and henceforth are not going to follow Christ.

Calvinists will generally argue that such a person never had a genuine faith in Christ to begin with, and in some cases I think they are correct. There are people who go to church and go through the rituals of religion because of family upbringing, peer pressure etc, yet never have any genuine relationship with Jesus Christ. In such cases their apostasy is a cultural shift and has little or nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

But I also believe that there are people who are genuinely followers of Christ and yet choose to abandon their Christianity. Interestingly, such people often retain a belief in the existence of God, and even in the truth of the Gospel, but choose instead to embrace an adulterous relationship or some other lifestyle incompatible with Christianity. Such cases do not happen 'all the time' (if they did then Christianity would be shrinking worldwide rather than growing rapidly) but they do happen sometimes. I believe it is down to free will - just like accepting Christ is also about free will.

The Holy Spirit is certainly essential to salvation and leading us to a place of faith, but the Bible also speaks of sins that we can commit that will grieve, or even quench, the Holy Spirit. Other Scriptures speak about "building ourselves up in the faith". I believe that certain practices (such as prayer, reading the Bible, worshiping God, fellowshipping with other believers) build up a Christian's dependence on, and relationship with, the Holy Spirit. This means that when tragedies etc. strike then our faith is strong enough to make us grow spiritually stronger, not weaker, in those times.

My own opinion is that an apostate, who deliberately chooses to abandon their commitment to Christ and dies in a state of apostasy, will indeed be judged as an unbeliever - irrespective of whether their period of apostasy lasted for one day or for twenty years. He who endures to the end will be saved.

Salvation is not an accumulation of brownie points for living a Christian life. It is a free gift that is appropriated by faith.

As for your final point about Hitler. Yes, I believe if someone genuinely makes a decision to follow Christ, even on their very deathbed, then they will be saved. However, such last gasp conversions are only to be viewed as unfair if you see the Christian life as some kind of struggle and sacrifice to be endured with gritted teeth until you get your reward at the end. That s not how I see it. For me, being a Christian is abundant life, it is much more fun than my old atheist lifestyle. So, someone who dies one day after their salvation is to be viewed like someone who dies one day after getting married - they may still get to heaven, but they missed out on a whole lot of fun!

JimiTime

^^ Great post PDN.

I don't think the Holy Spirit is as active as many believe these days. There is a scripture, I think in Revelation, about God pouring out some of his spirit in the last days. This would indicate to me, that its going to be an event that has been missing, so when he does pour out his spirit, we will once again see obvious signs of it, not ambiguous 'feelings' etc. I think there are alot of people out there who believe that the holy spirit is in them, when IMO its not. Thats not to say I dismiss people who claim it. I look at the gifts and fruits of the spirit as described in scripture, and see if the person exibits any of them. Its great for weeding out the Charlatans, and the misguided. Thats my opinion anyway.

BTW PDN, I was always under the impression that apostacy was when someone sins against the spirit, no?

Asiaprod

JimiTime wrote: »

BTW PDN, I was always under the impression that apostacy was when someone sins against the spirit, no?

Apostasy (IPA: /əˈpɒstəsi/) is the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy. In a technical sense, as used sometimes by sociologists without the pejorative connotations of the word, the term refers to renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to one's former religion. One who commits apostasy is an apostate, or one who apostatises. The word derives from Greek αποστασία, meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing".

JimiTime

Asiaprod wrote: »

Apostasy (IPA: /əˈpɒstəsi/) is the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy. In a technical sense, as used sometimes by sociologists without the pejorative connotations of the word, the term refers to renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to one's former religion. One who commits apostasy is an apostate, or one who apostatises. The word derives from Greek αποστασία, meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing".

Thanks Asia. The biblical context I always thought was using the definition 'Revolt against'. Usually carried out by people who had Holy Spirit. In this context its the unforgivable sin, a sin against the spirit. I know that various religions have adopted the meaning, 'to abandon ones religion'. I know of one in particular that teaches, that to leave their religion is apostacy. It may be apostacy againt that religion, but its not apsostacy against God. Am I confusing you yet:)

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Faith is much more about making a choice to trust and follow Jesus Christ as it is intellectual assent to His existence.
...
There are people who go to church and go through the rituals of religion because of family upbringing, peer pressure etc, yet never have any genuine relationship with Jesus Christ.

I think this is what he is getting at, people who may continue to follow the religion without actually believing in it any more.

Using your marriage example, a person can go through the process of marriage, stay committed to their vows, but that doesn't mean they love their wife. They may hope that they will at some point find that love again, and they may be fully committed to seeing the marriage out, doing everything they are supposed to do, but if they died on that day they would have died not loving their wife or husband.

So if a person who has lost faith, who does not believe God is real, while still following all the practices of the religion, believing even that all the teachings are good even if God isn't real, and who may hope some day to find that faith again, dies on the day they have no faith, what happens to them?

kelly1

PDN wrote: »

For me, being a Christian is abundant life, it is much more fun than my old atheist lifestyle.

You were an atheist??? :eek: How did your conversion happen?

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

You were an atheist??? :eek: How did your conversion happen?

I reached a point where a lot of the stuff I had been told as a kid didn't really make sense anymore - so I started looking at things more rationally, thinking for myself, and weighing up the evidence.

Also, from a pragmatic standpoint, I wasn't happy with how my life was turning out. I had a serious addiction and life seemed pretty pointless. I looked around me and tried to see of there were any other people whose lives were both fulfilling and beneficial to others. Most, if not all of the people I encountered who lived such lives seemed to be Christians. That gave me an incentive to explore Christianity.

Soul Winner

Akrasia wrote: »

If the holy spirit is so powerful, and if people who have 'faith' believe that the holy spirit communicates directly with them, then why do believers lose their faith? (it happens all the time)

How can someone be 'touched' by the holy spirit, yet abandon that belief later on in life? (It seems to make no sense.)

I'm not just talking about people who go through severe trauma, where their entire family is killed when a lightning rod crushes them after falling off a church.

The source that tells us about the Holy Spirit is the same source that tells us how to get Him/Her/It in us. That source says that the only way to get Him/Her/It in you is by faith in God's Word of promise. This faith action is usually started with the profession that you believe that Jesus is Lord and that you verbally ask Him to order your life. This same source also states that while it is called today that we should not let a promise of God sit on the shelf unclaimed. So from this we can deduce that we need faith in God's Word of promise and to have that faith daily. So with that basis I can only assume that when people lose their faith it is because they have allowed circumstances to overshadow God's Word of promise and in turn let go of the faith connection and thus lose the spirit. Think of it like a contract between God and man, which said contract states that in order for the spirit of God to remain in you, you must maintain this daily faith action in God's Word of promise. When you stop the faith action in God's Word of promise then you grieve the spirit away.

Akrasia wrote: »

What is Gods position regarding people who devoted their entire lives to God, but have a crises of belief in their later years?
If you spend 99.9999% of your life believing in god, but you die suddenly in a freak accident in an instant when you rejected belief in God (perhaps during a car accident in which you witness the innocent children of your devoted devout sister suffering a slow agonising death) do you automoatially suffer the same 'punishment' of all 'unbelievers' or (for catholics who missed a confession of a sin)

Its all in the contract. God is not a respecter of persons. He will honour faith no matter who it is that genuinely has it. He is a man of His Word.

Akrasia wrote: »

Could Mother Theresa get rejected by god for rejecting God in her later years while Hitler could gain admission to heaven for 'finding God' in his last moments in his bunker just before he knew he was going to die.

Absolutely. God hates quitters and loves sinners. He died for sinners not for righteous people. He also hates people who put Him on trial as much as He hates people who don't trust His Word. God might be all loving to those with a right heart toward Him but He can also hate as good as anyone. The important thing to remember is that God is not the one on trial, we are. When this is truly seen, only then can the heart be convicted, the knee bend and the mouth cry out to God: "Lord be merciful to me a sinner” this is where all the great men of God throughout history start. A recognition that God does not need us as much as we need Him.

To all those who do not like a God like this all I can say to you is to hope and pray that He doesn’t exist because this is the God that has been revealed by the scriptures like it or lump it. Your non acceptance of Him is not and will not ever ever be a factor to be considered, you either get with God’s ways (even reluctantly) or go to hell. Simple. And if you’ve convinced yourself that God doesn’t exist then bully for you. I hope you have a nice life. If you are ever called forth from the grave to give an account of yourself you will find out pretty fast that you were wrong all along. And sure even if you are right, nobody will be the wiser will they? You won’t be able to come back and tell anyone. And even if you could there’ll still be those die hard religious freaks that will never believe you anyway

So to sum up. People lose faith because they stop acting in faith. To act in faith is like being charge by the Holy Spirit once you've plugged into it by faith, just like a mobile phone gets charged when it is plugged into the source of power. And in the same way that mobile phones will eventually stop working until it gets charged, so too will the Holy Spirit stop working in us if we stop acting in faith. To gain entry to eternal life we must keep our daily connections to God’s Word by faith and to continue to do that until the end, until we lay down our earthly fleshly garments for once and for all.

A good promise to verbally claim when you are feeling like you just want to give up is:

“He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:8

Akrasia

PDN wrote: »

My own opinion is that an apostate, who deliberately chooses to abandon their commitment to Christ and dies in a state of apostasy, will indeed be judged as an unbeliever - irrespective of whether their period of apostasy lasted for one day or for twenty years. He who endures to the end will be saved.

Thanks for the long reply.

This is the bit I really have trouble with. It doesn't fit in with any concept of justice that I can think of. You have admitted that you were an atheist in your youth. If you had gotten hit by a car back then and died, you would suffer eternal damnation, but because you survived you had the chance to find god and find salvation. Its an eternal punishment or reward based on a very arbitrary and temporal criteria, your temporary state of mind at the moment of your death.

Salvation is not an accumulation of brownie points for living a Christian life. It is a free gift that is appropriated by faith.

There are other factors that affect things. If you are in a car accident and you watch your family die horribly you might very well forsake god immediately afterwards and mean it totally, and then your soul is in the hands of the emergency services. If you die in the ambulance you will go to hell, but if you survive and eventually make your peace with god then you'll be saved again.
Its just not fair.

As for your final point about Hitler. Yes, I believe if someone genuinely makes a decision to follow Christ, even on their very deathbed, then they will be saved. However, such last gasp conversions are only to be viewed as unfair if you see the Christian life as some kind of struggle and sacrifice to be endured with gritted teeth until you get your reward at the end. That s not how I see it. For me, being a Christian is abundant life, it is much more fun than my old atheist lifestyle. So, someone who dies one day after their salvation is to be viewed like someone who dies one day after getting married - they may still get to heaven, but they missed out on a whole lot of fun!

That is good for you that believing is its own reward, but for Mother Theresa, her life was extremely harsh and I'm sure her reward in heaven must have kept her going though some of the hard times and if she suffered damnation just because she couldn't force herself to believe anymore doesn't seem like something a just god would do.

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

Thanks for the long reply.

This is the bit I really have trouble with. It doesn't fit in with any concept of justice that I can think of. You have admitted that you were an atheist in your youth. If you had gotten hit by a car back then and died, you would suffer eternal damnation, but because you survived you had the chance to find god and find salvation. Its an eternal punishment or reward based on a very arbitrary and temporal criteria, your temporary state of mind at the moment of your death.

As a Catholic, I believe that the state of one's soul at the point of death determines their eternal destiny. With sanctifying grace in our souls, we are saved; In a state of mortal sin, we face damnation. I believe God takes care of those who love Him. So, for example someone commits a mortal before crashing their car, I would expect that God would give that person sufficent time to make a confession before dying or allow them to live. We're all weak human beings and we sometimes fall because of this and God understand this. On the otherhand, someone could commit apostasy in which they reject their faith and God. This person couldn't expect to receive mercy. So I don't think chance really has much part to play in salvation because God is a perfect judge.

Akrasia wrote: »

There are other factors that affect things. If you are in a car accident and you watch your family die horribly you might very well forsake god immediately afterwards and mean it totally, and then your soul is in the hands of the emergency services. If you die in the ambulance you will go to hell, but if you survive and eventually make your peace with god then you'll be saved again.
Its just not fair.

Forsaking God would show a lack of faith. Of course it would be very difficult to deal with but turning against God would be foolish because God isn't to blame. Rather it would be better to pray for fortitude.

Akrasia wrote: »

That is good for you that believing is its own reward, but for Mother Theresa, her life was extremely harsh and I'm sure her reward in heaven must have kept her going though some of the hard times and if she suffered damnation just because she couldn't force herself to believe anymore doesn't seem like something a just god would do.

I don't accept that Mother Teresa lost faith in God, that was media speculation. From what I read, she went through a common spiritual experience known as the "Dark night of the Soul". She felt abandoned by God but still continued to have faith.

gordon_gekko

always amuses me how with religous people , god is to credit for everything that goes right but to blame for nothing that goes wrong

if only i had the same deal going with my part time security work at a nightclub

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

To all those who do not like a God like this all I can say to you is to hope and pray that He doesn’t exist because this is the God that has been revealed by the scriptures like it or lump it. Your non acceptance of Him is not and will not ever ever be a factor to be considered, you either get with God’s ways (even reluctantly) or go to hell. Simple.

Hell it is then I guess ... still, in my view that is better than the alternative of simply not existing, so here hoping you guys are right

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

Hell it is then I guess ... still, in my view that is better than the alternative of simply not existing, so here hoping you guys are right

Well in my view it would be better to not exist at all than to be tormented day and night for eternity in a lake of fire. The only good thing about God not existing would be that this Hell would also not exist. Hell is avoidable though and in general most people who want to avoid it will do so. If you're not too bothered about avoiding such a God awful existence then there's not much anyone can do to help you avoid it is there? If Hell actually does exist then not believing it exists won’t do much to lower the temperature down there will it? That's why it states in proverbs that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. To the modern mind this is not a very fashionable idea but then God was never one to keep up with popular opinion. The thing people get confused about with God is that they have this erroneous notion that God is up there actually considering what we think of Him, that somehow He will eventually see things our way and change. That our opinions of how He operates will somehow get an audience with Him. They won’t. God is the way He is and He is going to stay that way no matter what we worms think of Him. We are lucky though, we have a chance to pick the winning side before the race is up. However, the angels that fell are doomed for this eternal damnation with no option to choose otherwise. This literal once in a lifetime salvation chance was purchased by God Himself through the sacrifice of His own Son Jesus Christ who is to be praised forever, and all He asks of us is daily acts of faith in His Word of promise, and for that He will give us eternal life. Even the atheists on this forum who pride themselves in their atheism have a chance to put that aside and start acting on God’s promises in their daily lives. God will honour anyone’s faith no matter what their background is or no matter how doomed they think they are because of past things they’ve said and done. All sins are forgiven but the sin against the holy spirit will not be forgiven. That sin IMO is the rejection of this salvation offer by God through His Son.

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well in my view it would be better to not exist at all than to be tormented day and night for eternity in a lake of fire.

Well how bad can it actually be?

I mean "pain" is just a neurological response to outside stimulous. Too much pain over too long a period and the brain simply shuts the body down. Fire destroys pain sensors, so rather quickly the ability for your body to even sense pain would simply burn off. Assuming that your body is indestructable (you are supposed to be in a lake of fire for eternity, so the fire obviously cannot destroy too much of you) you would have a pretty sweet, albeit a bit boring, existence from then on.

Certainly better than not existing at all.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Well how bad can it actually be?

More than you can possibly imagine.

Wicknight wrote: »

I mean "pain" is just a neurological response to outside stimulous. Too much pain over too long a period and the brain simply shuts the body down. Fire destroys pain sensors, so rather quickly the ability for your body to even sense pain would simply burn off. Assuming that your body is indestructable (you are supposed to be in a lake of fire for eternity, so the fire obviously cannot destroy too much of you) you would have a pretty sweet, albeit a bit boring, existence from then on.

Certainly better than not existing at all.

Wicknight, the suffering in Hell is spiritual. In Hell, you have no brain, no pain sensors, no body, only your soul. I would urge you to read this:

http://www.divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

It's amazing how many times I've heard people say going to Hell wouldn't be so bad. Don't be fooled! Why go to Hell when you could be crowned in Heaven , victorious with Christ, living in perfect joyful bliss with your loving and merciful Creator. Anyone who says that Hell couldn't be all that bad needs to have their head examined!

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

More than you can possibly imagine.

If you can't possibly imagine it then how can you say it is that bad?

kelly1 wrote: »

Wicknight, the suffering in Hell is spiritual. In Hell, you have no brain, no pain sensors, no body, only your soul.

Well then it ain't going to hurt.

What is the point of the "lake of fire" though?

kelly1 wrote: »

I would urge you to read this:

http://www.divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

Yeah, no idea what she is talking about.

Darkness yet you can see? So that would be not darkness then.

Fire of the soul? What does that even mean? Fire is a chemical reaction between oxygen and other elements. It creates heat which damages skin and other organic tissue, which is why we consider fire to be dangerous and why being burned is painful. I have no idea what fire of the soul is. Is our soul damaged by rising tempratures or chemical reactions?

Kinda hard to be scared of something that sounds so silly.

kelly1 wrote: »

Why go to Hell when you could be crowned in Heaven , victorious with Christ, living in perfect joyful bliss with your loving and merciful Creator.

Plenty of reasons.

For a start I object to the idea of being artificially made happy (one of the reasons why I try and avoid mood altering drugs) and I know I wouldn't be happy in heaven unless I was forced to be (which a lot of Christians seem to believe they would be, lest they miss people not in heaven with them)

Why would anyone want to go to heaven when they had an alternative?

kelly1

God have mercy on you! If you think Hell is better that non-existence, you really are doomed.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

you could be crowned in Heaven, victorious with Christ,

I don't get that at all -- how can you be 'victorious' with somebody when all you've done is jump through the hoops that the somebody set up for you? That seems to reduce humans to something akin to errant puppies in a celestial dog-obedience class.

Dudess

Soul Winner, the picture you're painting of God is of a pretty despotic dude. What could be so wonderful about him? And we have to love him, or else? Not very benevolent to me...

I don't believe in a higher power with human traits but I'd much rather the loving, merciful notion of god rather than your Old Testament, fire and brimstone guy any day.

HalloweenJack

Faith is lost because people lose trust in their religion.

That's what happened to me. I was a devout Catholic until I was about 13 when I realised that the Catholic Church is not as great as it's made out to be (need I say more?).

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

I don't get that at all -- how can you be 'victorious' with somebody when all you've done is jump through the hoops that the somebody set up for you? That seems to reduce humans to something akin to errant puppies in a celestial dog-obedience class.

Christ paid the penalty for our sins but we must fight against evil in this world. We have the devil, the flesh and the world to contend with. Over coming these temptations and putting God before created things is a victory. Giving into temptation and being a slave to selfish desires and earthly pleasures is to lose the battle. Doing God's will is true freedom, sin is slavery.

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

Well how bad can it actually be?

I mean "pain" is just a neurological response to outside stimulous. Too much pain over too long a period and the brain simply shuts the body down. Fire destroys pain sensors, so rather quickly the ability for your body to even sense pain would simply burn off. Assuming that your body is indestructable (you are supposed to be in a lake of fire for eternity, so the fire obviously cannot destroy too much of you) you would have a pretty sweet, albeit a bit boring, existence from then on.

Certainly better than not existing at all.

Well if you look at it in the same way as for the positive eternity. "No eye has seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." Then it would read: "No eye has seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who hate Him." So just like the pleasures that are at His right hand forever more have not even been conceived by man throughout history, so too the reality of eternal damnation. The only thing that might come close to picturing it would be to describe it as burning in a lake of fire forever with no pain sensors burning off or wearing down, as it would be a spiritual death rather than a physical bodily death. I've oft tried to conceive of how terrible an existence like that would be but even the terribleness that I can conceive it to be (which is pretty terrible) I'm sure doesn't even begin to compare with the real affliction of the soul by the licks of flames. Plus you also are alone, no one can ever help and no one ever wants to ever help and it will be this way forever with never ever ever a chance of getting free from it. Even if I didn't believe in God or Hell, I would still consider this to be a much worse existence than to not exist at all.

kelly1

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Faith is lost because people lose trust in their religion.

That's what happened to me. I was a devout Catholic until I was about 13 when I realised that the Catholic Church is not as great as it's made out to be (need I say more?).

Hello HJ, welcome to the forum!

I tend to disagree with you. People tend to lose faith because they lose touch with God. We are all urged in scripture to pray constantly. I've discovered this from experience. If I stop praying for an extended period (day or two) I tend to fall away from God and towards sin.

BTW, I used to think the Church wasn't anything special but then I saw the error of my ways, thanks to God.

God bless,
Noel.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

We have the devil, the flesh and the world to contend with.

Both of which Jesus, in his god persona, is said to have created. And having created them, he then wants us to avoid the dangers of both and tells us that we're going to hell if we don't. That makes no sense at all at any level.

I'd be quite rightly committed to a secure institution if I threatened my kid with throwing her into burning sulfer, but how come you see this as 'love' when a deity threatens exactly the same thing?

Soul Winner

Dudess wrote: »

Soul Winner, the picture you're painting of God is of a pretty despotic dude.

NEWS Flash: In Heaven God is the top dude. If you don't want to bow to Him then that's your business. Doesn't change anything, all that's happening is you just don't like that fact.

Dudess wrote: »

What could be so wonderful about him?

He died for you.

Dudess wrote: »

And we have to love him, or else? Not very benevolent to me...

When you're drowning and you know that you are going to die, and someone at risk to themselves jumps in and rescues you, you don't have to talk yourself into liking that person when he/she brings you to the shore. When all the dust of tradition and BS is blown off the essence of what Christianity is only then can one have an informed opinion on it. God does not want coerced love and worship. He wants it freely given or not at all. When you truly recognise what Christ did for us only then can the proper response come. God hates imitation Christianity, and the world is rife with it. Which (believe it or not) is why you have the opinion you have of it. Not your fault, just too many bad Christian Leaders and Teachers in the world.

Dudess wrote: »

I don't believe in a higher power with human traits but I'd much rather the loving, merciful notion of god rather than your Old Testament, fire and brimstone guy any day.

Did you ever stop to think how we got our human traits? Why do you automatically assume that they are human? The Word states that God made us in His image? Maybe that included some of His traits? So assuming they are His traits to begin with, then why can’t He retain them?

You say that you much rather the loving, merciful notion of God rather than my Old Testament, fire and brimstone guy. Well for one He’s not ‘my’ Old Testament guy. And there is plenty of goodness and mercy dispensed in the Old Testament despite what some selective readers might think. And where did you get the notion that God is loving and merciful? New Testament? Well if you read the record, Jesus talks more about Hell and damnation than He does about Heaven.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

God have mercy on you! If you think Hell is better that non-existence, you really are doomed.

Well yes, that is the point. Being "doomed" is better than not being. And being saved from this doom is not worth the price one must pay. So either way, doomed it is.

That is just my opinion of course, others may disagree.

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

The only thing that might come close to picturing it would be to describe it as burning in a lake of fire forever with no pain sensors burning off or wearing down, as it would be a spiritual death rather than a physical bodily death.

I have no idea what that is supposed to actually mean, and I doubt you do either.

These are just scary words, strung together. When you actually think about it they are nonsensical.

It does mean anything. A "lake of fire"? Is that water that is on fire? Is it a mountain formation that has collected rain water because the water cannot escape to lower ground (ie, a lake). Where is this lake or these mountains? What is the "fire"? Is that the chemical reaction of oxygen and heat? What is on fire?

Its hard to be scared of something that is so silly.

HalloweenJack

kelly1 wrote: »

I tend to disagree with you. People tend to lose faith because they lose touch with God. We are all urged in scripture to pray constantly. I've discovered this from experience. If I stop praying for an extended period (day or two) I tend to fall away from God and towards sin.

I never lost touch with God. I just stopped believeing in Catholicism, and therefore stopped believing in God as well.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Well yes, that is the point. Being "doomed" is better than not being. And being saved from this doom is not worth the price one must pay. So either way, doomed it is.

What price? True happiness is in doing God's will. Sin, far from being freedom to act, is slavery and results in damnation for those who cling stubbornly to it.

Wicknight wrote: »

I have no idea what that is supposed to actually mean, and I doubt you do either.

These are just scary words, strung together. When you actually think about it they are nonsensical.

It does mean anything. A "lake of fire"? Is that water that is on fire? Is it a mountain formation that has collected rain water because the water cannot escape to lower ground (ie, a lake). Where is this lake or these mountains? What is the "fire"? Is that the chemical reaction of oxygen and heat? What is on fire?

Its hard to be scared of something that is so silly.

Why do you keep thinking in physical terms? Can you not even try to imagine a spiritual existence? Obviously the fire described in scripture isn't the kind of fire found in nature because natural fire cannot have any effect on a soul. Spiritual fire to me means anger, oppressive claustrophia, severe discomfort, torment etc. But the loss of God is the main torment, never mind the "fire".

Having said that I accept that it would not be beyond God's power to produce some kind of spiritual fire that we can't imagine.

kelly1

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I never lost touch with God. I just stopped believeing in Catholicism, and therefore stopped believing in God as well.

Seems a bit contradictory? How do you keep in touch with God and not believe in Him?

PDN

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well if you look at it in the same way as for the positive eternity. "No eye has seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

The way this verse is commonly used is one of my pet hates. If you are going to quote 1 Corinthians 2:9 then I suggest you carry on and include the remainder of the sentence in verse 10: "but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit."

Taken in context this is not saying that eternity is some kind of mystery that we can't understand. Quite the opposite. It is saying that with the help of the Holy Spirit we can have a good idea of what eternity will be like.

MrPudding

PDN wrote: »

I reached a point where a lot of the stuff I had been told as a kid didn't really make sense anymore - so I started looking at things more rationally, thinking for myself, and weighing up the evidence.

This sounds exactly like my experience. That is why I am an atheist now. Funny how two people weighing up the same evidence can come to completely polar opposite conclusions. Still, I am glad it helped you sort out your life.

MrP

Soul Winner

PDN wrote: »

The way this verse is commonly used is one of my pet hates. If you are going to quote 1 Corinthians 2:9 then I suggest you carry on and include the remainder of the sentence in verse 10: "but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit."

Taken in context this is not saying that eternity is some kind of mystery that we can't understand. Quite the opposite. It is saying that with the help of the Holy Spirit we can have a good idea of what eternity will be like.

Hey P, chill out, its me Quite true and thanks for pointing it out but the reason I used this verse was to make the point that just like Heaven is hard to conceive of so too is Hell.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

What price?

Following the doctrine of a religion that I feel is often immoral and wrong.

For example, the teaching on homosexuality. Homosexuality is not wrong. In fact it can be wonderful, as some of my gay friends who are very much in love and very happy, demonstrate. I can pick plenty of other examples, but you all follow my posts so I imagine you all know my objections to your religion.

If you god does exist, and he demands I follow his teachings, I wouldn't. Following something that I believe is immoral and wrong is not worth what is on offer.

Considering though that I am personally far more scared of the oblivion that most likely awaits me than your religion's concept of hell, it seems like an even easier choice.

But then again we could be both wrong, and we are going to be reincarnated as rabbits ...

kelly1 wrote: »

True happiness is in doing God's will.

Possibly. But true happiness at the cost of ones beliefs in right and wrong is again too high a price to pay. I would rather be miserible.

kelly1 wrote: »

Why do you keep thinking in physical terms? Can you not even try to imagine a spiritual existence?

The words you are using to describe hell are descriptions of physical things (fire, lakes etc etc).

So I would ask why does your religion describe hell in physical terms?

If you are trying to explain to me what hell is like and you use descriptions with physical terms there is little point giving out that I'm not imagining a "spiritual existence", what ever that is supposed to be.

kelly1 wrote: »

Obviously the fire described in scripture isn't the kind of fire found in nature because natural fire cannot have any effect on a soul. Spiritual fire to me means anger, oppressive claustrophia, severe discomfort, torment etc.

Why does it mean that to you? Are you just picking not very nice feelings and assuming the this is what they mean? could you not just pick another set of words that are different?

And where does the lake come into it?

kelly1 wrote: »

But the loss of God is the main torment, never mind the "fire".

Well I don't have God at the moment, and I'm doing ok.

kelly1 wrote: »

Having said that I accept that it would not be beyond God's power to produce some kind of spiritual fire that we can't imagine.

Would he call it "fire" though? Sure if we can't imagine it then it is nothing like anything we have known, and as such there wouldn't be a word to describe it.

Fire is fire. These words mean something. It is a word describing a known concept. Saying that spiritual fire is nothing like fire is a bit silly. If it is nothing like fire why use the word in the first place?

Akrasia

Wicknight wrote: »

Considering though that I am personally far more scared of the oblivion that most likely awaits me than your religion's concept of hell, it seems like an even easier choice.

Whats so scary about oblivion? There is literally nothing to be afraid of.
I think Immortality is scarier than oblivion. There is no escape and it will never end. I think an eternity in 'heaven' worshiping god sounds just as horrific as an eternity in hell being burned in a lake of fire.

But then again we could be both wrong, and we are going to be reincarnated as rabbits ...

At least re-incarnation is something new. Without new experiences (or at the very least, the possibility of new experiences), 'life' is totally pointless.

Dudess

Soul Winner wrote: »

God does not want coerced love and worship. He wants it freely given or not at all.

But you're in big trouble if you don't love or worship him...

And where did you get the notion that God is loving and merciful?

Devout christians.

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

http://www.divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

The thing is, although there are alot of reports of Christians having visits with God or in hell, there are reports from non-Christians as well. Non-religious people having near death experiences and meeting loved ones somewhere nice, rememberances of past lives and people of other faiths meeting their religious leaders. Maybe these people are all just hallucinating whatever it is they believe in?

Akrasia

Soul Winner wrote: »

NEWS Flash: In Heaven God is the top dude. If you don't want to bow to Him then that's your business. Doesn't change anything, all that's happening is you just don't like that fact.



He died for you.



When you're drowning and you know that you are going to die, and someone at risk to themselves jumps in and rescues you, you don't have to talk yourself into liking that person when he/she brings you to the shore. When all the dust of tradition and BS is blown off the essence of what Christianity is only then can one have an informed opinion on it. God does not want coerced love and worship. He wants it freely given or not at all. When you truly recognise what Christ did for us only then can the proper response come. God hates imitation Christianity, and the world is rife with it. Which (believe it or not) is why you have the opinion you have of it. Not your fault, just too many bad Christian Leaders and Teachers in the world.



Did you ever stop to think how we got our human traits? Why do you automatically assume that they are human? The Word states that God made us in His image? Maybe that included some of His traits? So assuming they are His traits to begin with, then why can’t He retain them?

You say that you much rather the loving, merciful notion of God rather than my Old Testament, fire and brimstone guy. Well for one He’s not ‘my’ Old Testament guy. And there is plenty of goodness and mercy dispensed in the Old Testament despite what some selective readers might think. And where did you get the notion that God is loving and merciful? New Testament? Well if you read the record, Jesus talks more about Hell and damnation than He does about Heaven.

This is one of the most contradictory posts I have read anywhere in a long time.

God is 'wonderful' even though hes not loving or merciful. (what's the opposite of loving and merciful?? Vengeful and hate filled (or at best, ambivalent).
Are these things wonderful qualities? What separates the vengeful and hate filled god with Satan?

Didn't Jesus teach that forgiveness is a virtue? How can forgiveness be reconciled with vengefulness. they're the exact opposite. Is god not virtuous?

In the Lords prayer, Jesus said 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'

So god demands that we forgive others and implies that he will forgive us, but you're saying he's not merciful?

That means he is dishonest or misleading, and if that is true, then how can you trust anything he says.
If even God is capable of even one single lie or deception, then nothing can be trusted.

Soul Winner

Akrasia wrote: »

This is one of the most contradictory posts I have read anywhere in a long time.

God is 'wonderful' even though hes not loving or merciful. (what's the opposite of loving and merciful?? Vengeful and hate filled (or at best, ambivalent).
Are these things wonderful qualities? What separates the vengeful and hate filled god with Satan?

Didn't Jesus teach that forgiveness is a virtue? How can forgiveness be reconciled with vengefulness. they're the exact opposite. Is god not virtuous?

In the Lords prayer, Jesus said 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'

So god demands that we forgive others and implies that he will forgive us, but you're saying he's not merciful?

That means he is dishonest or misleading, and if that is true, then how can you trust anything he says.
If even God is capable of even one single lie or deception, then nothing can be trusted.

How can I argue with someone who says that I said things that I didn't say? Please re-read my post and then read your response then read mine again then read your response and you'll know what I'm talking about, or at least you should.

And where did I say: "God is 'wonderful' even though hes not loving or merciful."?

God can be whatever He damn well wants to be, that's the point. If He exists at all He can be meaner than anybody if He so chooses, including Satan. But He has guaranteed in His Word to give eternal life to those who will trust Him, so my advice would be to go with that. If you do not like ultimatums like this then SO WHAT. It doesn't matter what you like, that is also the point. If God exists then your opinion is as important to Him as a fart in the wind. Are you getting the point yet? If He exists at all then He’s not up there looking for friends or taking votes to see if His methods meet with your approval. You either get with His program or you’re dead. There is no other God revealed in scripture except this one. And He has proven, acted out and openly shown His love for us in what He wrought through Christ. The ball is in your court, you reject it if you want to. God has done His part.

Soul Winner

Dudess wrote: »

But you're in big trouble if you don't love or worship him...

Well put it this way, if you were God would you choose to spend all eternity with people who you knew would forever put you on trial over your methods and dealings with them instead of trusting you? "Doth the clay talk back to the Potter saying, what makest thou?"

If you were God would you gift people who you knew hated your guts with eternal life?

MrPudding

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well put it this way, if you were God would you choose to spend all eternity with people who you knew would forever put you on trial over your methods and dealings with them instead of trusting you? "Doth the clay talk back to the Potter saying, what makest thou?"

If you were God would you gift people who you knew hated your guts with eternal life?

Eternity is a long time to be surrounded by sycophants.

MrP

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

If you were God would you gift people who you knew hated your guts with eternal life?

The question you should be asking is if you were God would you punish people you know didn't believe you existed with eternal torture?

I think most people would say no.

RealEstateKing

anyone think of any possible crime for which ETERNAL suffering could possibly be a fair punishment?

Simply, mathematically, it doesnt add up: There's nothing you could do that would be so bad it would deserve eternity in hell.

Even Hitler doesnt deserve that.

Given that according to Christian doctrine, people go to hell for far less than committing mass genocide, how can you possibly square that with any idea of a loving God?

Zombrex

RealEstateKing wrote: »

anyone think of any possible crime for which ETERNAL suffering could possibly be a fair punishment?

My understanding is as follows -

Sinning against God is a crime worthy of eternal punishment. The logic is that God is eternal and infinitely perfect and good, therefore disobeying one of his commandments (ie "sinning") is infinitely bad. I'm not sure exactly what infinitely bad means, but it matches the eternal infinite part of God.

It doesn't matter which one you disobey, disobeying one or all of them is just the same. So we are all heading to hell (since everyone sins and it is impossible for someone to never sin. Jesus is the only human to never have sin). God can forgive us if we ask for it and repent and apologies for the sin we have committed and probably will commit. Otherwise we are going to hell because we have disobeyed God, without seeking forgiveness, which is infinitely bad.

No doubt I've go some of the details wrong and ten rabid Christians will now point out all the ways I'm distorting and perverting their religion, so apologies in advance :pac:

RealEstateKing

The logic is that God is eternal and infinitely perfect and good,

Well self-evidently if he sends people to eternal punishment he is obviously not 'good'.

Surely the hell part is considered a metaphor by most Christians nowadays (at least on this side of the pond)? Is that true?

I mean it's obvious that it was an idea that was invented in the days when most people were illiterate, so a simple moral imperative had to be invented, rather than having to tortuously explain why doing certain things was bad:

You dont say to an illiterate farmer in the 8th Century: "Dont be unfaithful to your wife, because ultimately infidelity will lead to a breakdown of intimicy which will, over time, destroy your marriage."

You say : "God says it's bad, you'll go to hell."

Akrasia

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well put it this way, if you were God would you choose to spend all eternity with people who you knew would forever put you on trial over your methods and dealings with them instead of trusting you? "Doth the clay talk back to the Potter saying, what makest thou?" [/quote[
If I was god, I would be more than capable of figuring out a way of avoiding the people I didn't like without having cast them into a lake of fire.

If you were God would you gift people who you knew hated your guts with eternal life?

I don't hate god, I don't believe he exists. If I were god I wouldn't be so petty as to persecute people who have an incorrect but otherwise harmless belief for all eternity.

The logic that god is justified in torturing people who don't believe in him is just the same as the logic that Muslims are justified kill people who don't believe in their version of Allah.

Akrasia

RealEstateKing wrote: »

You dont say to an illiterate farmer in the 8th Century: "Dont be unfaithful to your wife, because ultimately infidelity will lead to a breakdown of intimicy which will, over time, destroy your marriage."

Why not? I think its a much much better argument to say 'Don't cheat on your wife because the harm you cause to your wife will destroy your marriage' than to say 'Don't cheat on your wife because if you do an invisible man will strike you down after you die'


The invisible man idea is what kept people stupid and superstitious for so long instead of encouraging people to contemplate human nature and to come to a empathetic and loving moral philosophy. (The idea that we can only live in a caring society if we are caring ourselves, rather than we can only live in a caring society if everyone agrees to worship a particular invisible man)

RealEstateKing

Of course morality is better when it's derived from mature discussion about ethics.

However the world's major religions developed in a world in which at least 80-90% of people were illiterate. So religion has often been intellectually scaleable.

Ask a peasant farmer in Bolivia about his understanding of Christianity and much of it will be simplistic, naturalistic belief in bogeymen and evil spirits. Ask a Jesuit in Rome and you'll get a much more nuanced explanation.

It has to be that way, otherwise it would be too complicated for the proles and too simplistic for intellectuals.

Zombrex

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Well self-evidently if he sends people to eternal punishment he is obviously not 'good'.

Welcome to the wonderful cyclical world of debating the morality of the Christian God.

The response you would no doubt receive is that you are not in a position to judge if sending people to eternal punishment is obviously "not good". Christians have already determined that God is perfect and good (how they do that is an interesting question), he would not do bad.

You are a wicked sinner, just looking out for yourself, so of course you will say it is bad, just as the rapist says it is bad to be locked up in prison. You say it is bad because you want to blame God for your own wickedness.

God has decided it is good, and he is the ultimate authority to decide what is good or not good. Since he would not do bad it must therefore be a good, just, thing to do, even if we don't see it that way.

You can have a lot of interesting times picking out all the logical flaws in the above. But then you only do that because you are wicked :pac:

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Surely the hell part is considered a metaphor by most Christians nowadays (at least on this side of the pond)? Is that true?

Depends on who you ask. Sometimes the response is that hell is simply a place absent of God. Others believe it is a place of active torture and suffering.

Singer73

Surely religion is a geographical accident of birth? If I was born in a muslim country, it is more than likely I would choose Islam. Likewise in Christian countries.
I was born on the television, so I choose Paul Daniels - his magic is so much more accessible...