Why do people lose faith?

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

There is no sin that cannot be forgiven where mercy is sought.

Except for sinning against the holy ghost -- how is that done?

RealEstateKing

There is no sin that cannot be forgiven where mercy is sought.

Really?

It's like having a conversation with a kid about a Superhero called "Super-Fantastic Man"

Q: "He can do anything?"

A: "Anything at all."

Q: "And he fights crime."

A: "Yes he fights crime."

Q: "Um so, why doesnt he just abolish crime altogether?"

A: "Ummmm....."

And of course the answer is either: (A) There is no SuperFantasticMan (B) SuperFantasticMan is not omnipotent (C) Superfantastic Man does not love us.

Which is it?

Im sure the answer will be something along the lines of, "Well, those rules dont apply to SuperFantasticMan cause he's Superfantastic."

*sigh*

2000 years of intellegence wasted on bending around this elementary stuff.

Zombrex

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Really?

It's like having a conversation with a kid about a Superhero called "Super-Fantastic Man"

Q: "He can do anything?"

A: "Anything at all."

Q: "And he fights crime."

A: "Yes he fights crime."

Q: "Um so, why doesnt he just abolish crime altogether?"

A: "Ummmm....."

And of course the answer is either: (A) There is no SuperFantasticMan (B) SuperFantasticMan is not omnipotent (C) Superfantastic Man does not love us.

Which is it?

Im sure the answer will be something along the lines of, "Well, those rules dont apply to SuperFantasticMan cause he's Superfantastic."

*sigh*

2000 years of intellegence wasted on bending around this elementary stuff.

The official answer is that he cannot abolish crime because that would be abolishing our free will to commit crime (in the same way that not letting us fly would be abolishing our free will to fly ... oh wait :pac:)

RealEstateKing

That not only means he can do cool things like lifting buildings, it also means he can change the nature of reality:

(A) All the horrible things that happen to human beings that have nothing to do with their own actions - earthquakes, tsunamis, diseases, cylones and so on.

Why doesn't SuperFantasticMan simply abolish them? If he is infinitely loving and inifintiely powerful, this is easily within his power. But he doesnt do it. To not do this is fair enough, it isnt an easy thing to do. However to be infinitely powerful and not do this means he is evil.

We are asked to beleive that when I, nice comfy Westerner that I am, plead with him to help me pass my exams, he grants it (sometimes). But a billion miserably poor people on the planet pray to him every day and he does nothing for them.

Yes, yes, I know "SuperFantasticMan" moves in mysterious ways. Again that type of reasoning could be used to justify anything: "Stalin moves in mysterious ways: The 60 million people dead in the Gulag - its all part of Stalin's 5 year plan for a glorious socialist future!"

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

SW, I really think you're misrepresenting God there.



God is infinitely merciful to those who repent and seek forgiveness. There is no sin that cannot be forgiven where mercy is sought.

Eh, well if you read my post properly you wouldn't get that impression. I asked the poster where did she get the notion that God is merciful? Then I answered: "The New Testament?" Then I proceeded to point out that Jesus in the New Testament speaks more about Hell than he does about Heaven. Does that mean I think God is not merciful? No! It means if the poster is going to use the New Testament as a reference to a merciful God and the Old Testament to a un-merciful God then the poster would be wise to understand that Jesus did not come to save the world, rather to save some out of the world. "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34. Not everyone is going to be saved. There will be many not saved, many more than there are that will be saved. The ignorance about true Christianity on this forum from the non-Christians is nothing short of staggering. With the exception of Wickinight who has it to a tea but I know doesn't believe it. Read Wicknights posts again people and this will give you a good idea as to what God is really like. Sure He is good and merciful and all that great stuff but He doesn’t have to be in order to be God. The only thing that keeps Him God is power. Not love or mercy. And He is not out there asking you to like it. God is not on trial. Disbelieve in Him or hate Him all you like. If He exists then He is going to win and you are going to burn. But if you say but the words "Jesus is Lord" then you shall be saved. That is the only door that is open into life eternal for all of us. You can choose not to enter if you like. As PDN says, the fact that this door even exists is Amazing Grace.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

I wouldn't want to go to heaven anyway.

I will never understand that attitude. Lots of people seems to have this notion that people in Heaven spend eternity worshiping God like a sycophant/lapdogs/drones. I don't think it's like that at all. Everyone who is saved will however understand the enormity of sin after they die and will be eternally grateful to God for His mercy.

What could be better that living in perfect union with God. We become "divinized" and share in God's nature which means sharing his holiness, purity, goodness, joy etc, etc. Sounds rather nice to me. And if you think God would bore people, think again.

Wicknight wrote: »

The issue is why the only alternative to that is to be dragged kicking and screaming to a place of eternal torture and suffering and lakes of fire.

There is an alternative and it's called Purgatory and is a temporary state.

Wicknight wrote: »

If Jesus has already paid the debt of sin for all of humanity, why are people still being made to pay of that debt in hell?

Why would God continue to punish people in hell if the punishment has already been taken by Jesus. How does it serve justice to punish twice?

God offers the hand of mercy to all of us. What is He to do if we don't reach out and be saved? Force us against our will?

robindch wrote: »

Except for sinning against the holy ghost -- how is that done?

There are a couple sins that cannot be forgiven such as rejection of God's mercy/obstinate refusal to repent and presumption of forgiveness.

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Really?

It's like having a conversation with a kid about a Superhero called "Super-Fantastic Man"

It's simple, God respects our free-will.

JimiTime

RealEstateKing wrote: »

And of course the answer is either: (A) There is no SuperFantasticMan (B) SuperFantasticMan is not omnipotent (C) Superfantastic Man does not love us.

Or D)you haven't the Knowledge, Wisdom or forsight to understand.

Soul Winner

Wicknight wrote: »

The official answer is that he cannot abolish crime because that would be abolishing our free will to commit crime (in the same way that not letting us fly would be abolishing our free will to fly ... oh wait :pac:)

Well in Daniel the prophecy does state that he will put an end to sin and finish transgression.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

Does this mean God will one day take our free will away? To be honest I really don't know!

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Eh, well if you read my post properly you wouldn't get that impression. I asked the poster where did she get the notion that God is merciful? Then I answered: "The New Testament?" The I proceeded to point out that Jesus in the New Testament speaks more about Hell than he does about Heaven. Does that mean I think God is not merciful? No! It means if the poster is going to use the New Testament as a reference to a merciful God and the Old Testament to a un-merciful God then the poster would be wise to understand that Jesus did not come to save the world, rather to save some out of the world.

I can't agree with that! Why would God discriminate? Jesus came to save everyone but not everyone accepts the gift of salvation.

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: 5 "One mediator"... Christ is the one and only mediator of redemption, who gave himself, as the apostle writes in the following verse. 6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.

Soul Winner wrote: »

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34.

Meaning what?

Soul Winner wrote: »

Sure He is good and merciful and all that great stuff but He doesn’t have to be in order to be God. The only thing that keeps Him God is power. Not love or mercy.

Where did you get that idea? Read 1 John 4:16 and see that God IS Love!

StormWarrior

Soul Winner wrote: »

The only thing that keeps Him God is power. Not love or mercy. And He is not out there asking you to like it. God is not on trial. Disbelieve in Him or hate Him all you like. If He exists then He is going to win and you are going to burn.

So basically, God is going to burn most of the people in the world just because he can. Nice! And some people want to spend eternity with this dude! I could understand and accept it if he was putting us on trial to find out which were suitable for heaven and just extinguish the rest, but if he's going to torture the rest for eternity just because he can...... well, that's pretty mean.

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

There is an alternative and it's called Purgatory and is a temporary state.


It's simple, God respects our free-will.

But isn't purgatory just for those who are going to heaven once their sins are cleansed? If God respects my free will, he will respect the fact that I don't want to go to his heaven or hell! But if this version of God exists, I'm guessing I don't have a choice.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

There is an alternative and it's called Purgatory and is a temporary state.

And how does purgatory fit in with the whole 'jesus died for our sins' thing?

If you genuinely ask for forgiveness you're supposed to be forgiven. How is there a half way point between genuinely asking for forgiveness and not genuinely asking for forgiveness?

God offers the hand of mercy to all of us. What is He to do if we don't reach out and be saved? Force us against our will?

Not torture us for all of eternity.

There are a couple sins that cannot be forgiven such as rejection of God's mercy/obstinate refusal to repent and presumption of forgiveness.

Cannot be forgiven? I thought god was omnipotent.

It's simple, God respects our free-will.

He does not, he threatens eternal damnation if we don't believe in him. Thats black mail, it's recognised in contract law as coercion and an impairment of free consent and the contract is null and void.

Soul Winner

StormWarrior wrote: »

So basically, God is going to burn most of the people in the world just because he can. Nice! And some people want to spend eternity with this dude! I could understand and accept it if he was putting us on trial to find out which were suitable for heaven and just extinguish the rest, but if he's going to torture the rest for eternity just because he can...... well, that's pretty mean.

You're still viewing things through your view of what justice is. God does the same thing. Whatever He says is right IS what's right, not what you or I say or think is right. You're criteria for right and wrong is not necessarily the one that will be the determining criteria throughout eternity. Someone’s criteria will be THE determining criteria and if God exists then it will be His.

Mena

Soul Winner wrote: »

You're still viewing things through your view of what justice is. God does the same thing. Whatever He says is right IS what's right, not what you or I say or think is right. You're criteria for right and wrong is not necessarily the one that will be the determining criteria throughout eternity. Someone’s criteria will be THE determining criteria and if God exists then it will be His.

Is this where we go back to the old testament and its barbaric teachings?

Akrasia

Soul Winner wrote: »

You're still viewing things through your view of what justice is. God does the same thing. Whatever He says is right IS what's right, not what you or I say or think is right. You're criteria for right and wrong is not necessarily the one that will be the determining criteria throughout eternity. Someone’s criteria will be THE determining criteria and if God exists then it will be His.

thats a very convenient argument.
Everything god does is right by definition, but only if god does it, if we follow his example by burning people who don't believe the same things we do, then suddenly thats wrong.

If god murders thousands of innocent children in their sleep to try and prove a point to a corrupt dictator, thats right, but if a human did anything even remotely close that, they'd be viewed as histories greatest monster.

God can commit genocide, and his followers will still think he did the right thing.

kelly1

StormWarrior wrote: »

But isn't purgatory just for those who are going to heaven once their sins are cleansed?

The purpose of purgatory is to cleanse us of attachment to sin and to pay the debt of temporal punishment as opposed to eternal punishement. What I'm saying is that when we sin, we don't get off scott free. Yes we avoid hell but there is a still a price to pay for sin. Only the perfectly pure can enter Heaven and very few of us reach that level of holiness.

StormWarrior wrote: »

If God respects my free will, he will respect the fact that I don't want to go to his heaven or hell! But if this version of God exists, I'm guessing I don't have a choice.

True, you don't make the rules.

Akrasia wrote: »

And how does purgatory fit in with the whole 'jesus died for our sins' thing?

If you genuinely ask for forgiveness you're supposed to be forgiven. How is there a half way point between genuinely asking for forgiveness and not genuinely asking for forgiveness?

Jesus saves us from eternal punishment. If I steal money from someone, wouldn't I expect to have to give the money back even after they forgave me?

StormWarrior

Soul Winner wrote: »

You're still viewing things through your view of what justice is. God does the same thing. Whatever He says is right IS what's right, not what you or I say or think is right. You're criteria for right and wrong is not necessarily the one that will be the determining criteria throughout eternity. Someone’s criteria will be THE determining criteria and if God exists then it will be His.

Of course I agree with the logic that if this god exists and is all powerful he can do whatever he wants. But just because he has the power to do so doesn't make him right. If I'm walking down the street and see a little kid, I could easily beat them up and steal their lunch money because I'm more powerful. But that doesn't make it right that I do. Of course God's criteria would be the determining criteria but that does not make it morally right. As said in another thread, if we are created in God's image then we must have a similar sense of justice to god. And anyone in their right mind can see that eternal torture for disbelief is not just. There's no external moderator checking God's actions, so his actions are only right because he says he is. No different to a dictator.

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

True, you don't make the rules.

So you agree that God is not too bothered about respecting our free will?

StormWarrior

kelly1 wrote: »

The purpose of purgatory is to cleanse us of attachment to sin and to pay the debt of temporal punishment as opposed to eternal punishement. What I'm saying is that when we sin, we don't get off scott free. Yes we avoid hell but there is a still a price to pay for sin. Only the perfectly pure can enter Heaven and very few of us reach that level of holiness.

But it's still only for those destined for heaven. It doesn't change the fact that God will send some to hell only because they didn't believe in him.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I will never understand that attitude. Lots of people seems to have this notion that people in Heaven spend eternity worshiping God like a sycophant/lapdogs/drones. I don't think it's like that at all. Everyone who is saved will however understand the enormity of sin after they die and will be eternally grateful to God for His mercy.

Well it seems to me that God will remove our free will, wipe our memories of our loved ones and friends who aren't in heaven so we don't mind they aren't there, and then make us "understand" the enormity of sin (not sure how that works, but it is hard not to imagine a mafia don). He will then put us in a state of perfect happiness, which sounds very disturbing.

Heaven seems more like the drug in "A Brave New World" that just puts people in a coma of bliss, than actual proper existence.

At least in hell you still seem to be "you", you still seem to have all your memories and personality and awareness.

kelly1 wrote: »

What could be better that living in perfect union with God.

Depends on what you want.

For me a lot of things. For you apparently nothing.

kelly1 wrote: »

Sounds rather nice to me. And if you think God would bore people, think again.

Why would I think again? Does it say in the Bible that people have PlayStation 3s in heaven? Or does God simply remove our ability to be bored?

kelly1 wrote: »

There is an alternative and it's called Purgatory and is a temporary state.

If it is a temporary state then it isn't an alternative.

kelly1 wrote: »

God offers the hand of mercy to all of us. What is He to do if we don't reach out and be saved? Force us against our will?

Please explain why torturing us for eternity in a lake of fire is the only (permanite) alternative to forcing us into heaven?

Its like saying "Well you can come with us to DisneyLand or we can shoot you in the head, your choice? Whats that? You don't want to go to DisneyLand. Right, bulliet to the brain it is"

kelly1 wrote: »

It's simple, God respects our free-will.

And yet we can't fly.

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

You're still viewing things through your view of what justice is. God does the same thing. Whatever He says is right IS what's right, not what you or I say or think is right. You're criteria for right and wrong is not necessarily the one that will be the determining criteria throughout eternity. Someone’s criteria will be THE determining criteria and if God exists then it will be His.

Do understand that such a set up make it impossible for you, or any human, to determine if God is good?

Which is why it is doesn't work when you guys say things like

God demonstrates his goodness

God demonstrates his holiness

He can't demonstrate that if what you say above is true, because you lack the ability to assess if what he is demonstrating actually is good or holy.

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

And yet we can't fly.

Really? I must then sufferer from a reoccurring dream whereby I'm shunted into an 'aer-o-plane' run by a crappy budget 'air-line' called RyanAir. Madness, I know!

It is a feeble argument to imply that our unavoidable adherence to the overarching laws of the universe somehow limits our free will. Whatever an individual decides is entailed in the notion of 'free will', the concept, in its broadest understanding, is subject to the same constraints for the atheist as it is for the theist, namely: the laws of physics which govern our place in the universe. If you decided that 'free will' is the ability to do, control, think, have, say, or be anything, and I mean anything, then that notion of 'free will' can't exist in our universe. After all, humans, fish, planets or atoms can not and never will be able to do certain things. If you were of a mind that the ability to do anything is impossible, then your implication that man's inability to fly unaided calls into question 'free will' becomes something unsupportable by the manner in how the universe operates.

We live in a democracy, and although there are certain limitations placed upon us - I can't, for instance, legally go on a bank robbing spree - I do not consider that my free will is constrained. You probably do, though!

Still, I could well imagine if God granted mankind the ability to walk though walls you would be arguing that the ability to not walk through walls proves that God gave us no free will.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

Jesus saves us from eternal punishment. If I steal money from someone, wouldn't I expect to have to give the money back even after they forgave me?

you keep changing the rules. either Jesus atoned for our sins or he did not.

If God is still going to punish us for our sins, then what is the point of jesus? Is the 'ultimate sacrifice' not sufficient to atone for me taking the lords name in vain? (it makes absolutely no sense if the 'absolute sacrifice' isn't better than a routine sin.

Soul Winner

Akrasia wrote: »

thats a very convenient argument.
Everything god does is right by definition, but only if god does it, if we follow his example by burning people who don't believe the same things we do, then suddenly thats wrong.

If god murders thousands of innocent children in their sleep to try and prove a point to a corrupt dictator, thats right, but if a human did anything even remotely close that, they'd be viewed as histories greatest monster.

God can commit genocide, and his followers will still think he did the right thing.

If God exists then He is the originator of everything, and therefore the owner of everything and therefore the one who can choose to do whatever He wants with whatever He has originated, including us. When you weed out your garden what do you do with the weeds? You throw them out or burn them. What is no good will be burned. Only the faithful will inherit the Kingdom. Those whose fruits are generated by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which said Holy Spirit can only come in you by faith in God’s Word of promise.

If God is, then He is not subject to the laws that He has subjected us to. Just because it is unlawful for us to kill does not mean that it is unlawful for Him to kill. He makes the laws. Do we now subject the maker of the laws to these very same laws? By what authority do we do that? What power do we have to enforce it? And most importantly what right do we have to do it? The problem with us is that we judge everything from our view point. Part of being a Christian is to die to this self centred view and to more and more come to see things His way. You mightn't like His ways but if He' exists then it is going to be Him that wins the battle of the wills not me or you.

We have free will, but only within the confines of our present abilities. Just like a swimmer in a fast current can splash around in any direction he likes but he is not strong enough to stop the direction current will eventfully bring him. Maybe before the fall we had the ability to fly who knows? Maybe part of the punishment for sin and part of the stripping of the dominion over all things from us was to take away whatever supernatural abilities we possessed before the fall. We will never know what it was like before the fall because we are born on that other side of the fence, with the deck stacked against us. From our point of view we did nothing wrong, but if we were in Adam's loins when he sinned then as penalty came upon Him it also fell on us. Likewise if we are in Christ by faith, God see us as dead with Him and will also raise us with Him on the last day. I don't know what way God is going to judge anyone else but it is guaranteed from God's Word that there is now, nor will there ever be any condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. And as said time and again here, the only way to get in Him is to have Him in you and the only way you can have Him in you is by faith. And faith is trusting God when He speaks.

I don’t know what Heaven will be like but I believe it has a glory all of its own, just like the Earth, Moon and Sun have a certain type of glory different from each other but all the same gloriously beautiful. And if I’m disappointed that there are no PS3s in Heaven when I get there, then I will be plenty pi**ed off I can assure you of that I believe that our former glory (and then some) will be restored to us for simply being faithful in our weakness-riddled-sojourn down here to Him who died for us and rose again, and we will rule and reign with Him throughout Eternity. Realities beyond space and time and human comprehension to explore and rule over. No more death, tears, or suffering. Anyone who would prefer Hell to that has to be missing a few nuts and bolts in the cranial department. And if we are the ones who are wrong about the resurrection of Christ from the dead then we are the ones to be pitied beyond all men. Somebody is wrong and just because you don’t believe in all this stuff doesn’t make you right about it. We’ll see someday won’t we?

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Really? I must then sufferer from a reoccurring dream whereby I'm shunted into an 'aer-o-plane' run by a crappy budget 'air-line' called RyanAir. Madness, I know!

Well while RyanAir can sometimes seem like a nightmare, I would point out that you are not flying. The aeroplane is flying, you are just sitting in it as it does this.

Or to put it another way, bacteria can't fly. Some bacteria that live inside the stomach of birds end up in the air as a consequence of being inside the bird, an organism which can fly, but again it would be rather silly to suggest that because of this bacteria possess the ability to fly.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It is a feeble argument to imply that our unavoidable adherence to the overarching laws of the universe somehow limits our free will.

It limits are free will in every way that God has determined the things we cannot do. We cannot for example, breath under water, even if we wanted to. We cannot fly. We cannot survive in a vaccume.

The reason for pointing all this out is to counter the rather ridiculous claim that God cannot "fix" things like crime, or death, or injury, or murder, or rape etc etc without limiting our free will.

It is entirely possible to imagine a world where we for example cannot be murdered, yet we would still possess free will. Or a world where we cannot suffer injury, yet still possess free will. We wouldn't possess the ability to kill each other, but then we don't know possess the ability to survive jumping off a bridge.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

After all, humans, fish, planets or atoms can not and never will be able to do certain things.

That is exactly the point.

These "certain things" were decided by God.

For some unknown reason God decided that it would be a good idea that we are able to kill each other. He decided it would be a good idea that fire burns flesh, ice freezes skin, knifes rupture blood etc. He thought it would be a good idea to allow humans the ability to rape each other.

All these things could have been altered without effecting free will. This, to me, strongly calls into question the idea of a loving god.

The counter-argument to that, that the ability to carry out these horrible things, must be present in this world lest we would lose our ability to act freely doesn't hold for all the reasons you detailed above.

It is not necessary that we have these abilities for us to have free will. We lack plenty of other abilities without it stopping us having free will.

So why do we have these horrible abilities?

RealEstateKing

I love the slippery 'reasoning' Christians use:

(1) God can kill and it's not murder, cause he's God and the rules aren't the same for him.

Ok...with you so far and then....

(2) God can't eliminate suffering without eliminating free will.

Well, um, didnt you just state that he's God and the rules dont apply to him? So surely God CAN eliminate suffering without eliminiting free will, I mean, he's GOD fer chrissakes, the Big Honcho, Mr Omnipotent?

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

If God exists then He is the originator of everything, and therefore the owner of everything and therefore the one who can choose to do whatever He wants with whatever He has originated, including us. When you weed out your garden what do you do with the weeds? You throw them out or burn them.

And when you buy a dog you can do with him as you like. You throw rocks at him and poke him with sticks, set him on fire .... ummm, except you can't.

Just because you own something doesn't mean you have the right to do what ever you wish with it.

Rights are determined by what something is, the properties it has, not who owns it.

A dog has more rights and protection than a plant because a dog is different to a plant, not because they have different owners.

RealEstateKing

When you weed out your garden what do you do with the weeds? You throw them out or burn them.

But your religion also teaches that he's merciful and he loves you.

Zombrex

Soul Winner wrote: »

The problem with us is that we judge everything from our view point.

Right so, then can you all stop saying you have determined God is just and good and fair and merciful, given that you keep stating over and over that we cannot judge if that is true or not. :rolleyes:

Soul Winner wrote: »

We have free will, but only within the confines of our present abilities.

That is exactly the point.

Why would a loving God give us the abilities to do such harm to each other, or give us the abilitity to suffer said harm?

Soul Winner wrote: »

From our point of view we did nothing wrong, but if we were in Adam's loins when he sinned then as penalty came upon Him it also fell on us.

You weren't in Adam's "loins" when he sinned. But even if you were, why would the punishment fall upon us as well?

Hereditary punishment is something that humans long ago deemed unfair and immoral. Funny that God disagrees isn't it. Isn't God supposed to be more moral than us, not less moral?

Why would a loving God punish everyone for something Adam and Eve did?

Soul Winner wrote: »

No more death, tears, or suffering. Anyone who would prefer Hell to that has to be missing a few nuts and bolts in the cranial department.

Anyone, myself included, who would prefer hell to that is not seeking no more tears or suffering.

It may be difficult for you to understand but not everyone longs for something to make their life better. There are more things in life than personal satisfaction.

Soul Winner wrote: »

We’ll see someday won’t we?

Well no we won't. The most likely atheist outcome is that you will die and simply not exist any more.

At which point you won't see anything.

RealEstateKing

No more death, tears, or suffering. Anyone who would prefer Hell to that has to be missing a few nuts and bolts in the cranial department.

And anyone who cant see that hell and heaven are quite plainly inventions designed to appeal to the imaginations of simple-minded 4th century peasants, has to be missing a few nuts and bolts in the cranial department...

You know the way you as a Christian feel when you see Ganesh the elephant God? You think "Oh come on, yis must be having a laugh!"

Try applying the same sceptical rigour to your own and you'll find he falls apart quite quickly.