The snip

The Sweeper

Just a little friendly moderator reminder that this thread is about the snip and not your belief systems kids mmmkay?

milod

I had a good female friend. She faced the sterilisation quandary and asked her (now ex) husband to have the vasectomy. He refused and said he wanted more kids. She said she'd had two thanks, and that was plenty for her.

In the end, she decided to be sterilised for several reasons:

1. She felt that as the primary decision maker, it was her fertility that was in question - husbands don't have babies.

2. An affair, a drunken mistake, or worse still, a rape still left her open to pregnancy.

3. Her potentially vasectomied husband would essentially have a license to shag anyone else, without a condom, and bring home the resulting nasties.

You may think reasons 2 and 3 are especially cynical, but she's a pragmatic woman, not a fantasist, and took account of the sort of things that do actually happen in life...

BTW, in theory, I would have a vasectomy if it were the only practical option.

However that's easy for me to say because I don't have to... Me and my good female friend ended up together when she left her husband...

Macha

milod wrote: »

I had a good female friend. She faced the sterilisation quandary and asked her (now ex) husband to have the vasectomy. He refused and said he wanted more kids. She said she'd had two thanks, and that was plenty for her.

In the end, she decided to be sterilised for several reasons:

1. She felt that as the primary decision maker, it was her fertility that was in question - husbands don't have babies.

2. An affair, a drunken mistake, or worse still, a rape still left her open to pregnancy.

3. Her potentially vasectomied husband would essentially have a license to shag anyone else, without a condom, and bring home the resulting nasties.

You may think reasons 2 and 3 are especially cynical, but she's a pragmatic woman, not a fantasist, and took account of the sort of things that do actually happen in life...

BTW, in theory, I would have a vasectomy if it were the only practical option.

However that's easy for me to say because I don't have to... Me and my good female friend ended up together when she left her husband...

1. Despite the posters who run to the abortion thread every 90 seconds, most women are of the opinion that both men and women have babies, especially if they're in a long-term, serious relationship.

2. I understand that one but the morning after pill is very effective in emergency cases.

3. No offense intended but with those thought processes going on, I'm not surprised he is now her ex-husband.

I would have said that all 3 points were cynical.

doonothing

Wow, there's pragmaticism and then there's pessimism! I understand there's also trust, and then there's naivety, but does trust only apply when there's no risk whatsoever involved?

My friend believes that all men, when they enter puberty, should have sperm samples frozen for future use, and vasectomies. Now there's pragmaticism

stovelid

milod wrote: »

3. Her potentially vasectomied husband would essentially have a license to shag anyone else, without a condom, and bring home the resulting nasties.
..

I'm surprised that more people haven't touched on this aspect either.

Also, when somebody decides that their family is complete, to end the chance of their partner potentially fathering children elsewhere.

Macha

Again, why are you having children with this man if you fear he may do this? I don't think trusting your partner is naivity; it's vital to a relationship.

If my partner factored this into his thinking, I would be very hurt and vice versa.

So stovelid, are you saying that the better option is for the woman to be on 30+ years of hormonal treatment? I'm not saying either option is ideal but I do thingkthey are the only two options. I have yet to hear a viable third option.

stovelid

taconnol wrote: »

So stovelid, are you saying that the better option is for the woman to be on 30+ years of hormonal treatment? I'm not saying either option is ideal but I do thingkthey are the only two options. I have yet to hear a viable third option.

My point was only in response to milod.

But no, I wouldn't ever countenance a vasectomy for any other reason than my own choice. Nor would I ask my wife to undergo sterilization.

Also: '30 years of hormonal treatment' can include 1-29 years of self-elected contraceptive choice that had nothing to do with your current partner.

To that end, I won't be browbeaten into a vasectomy by some bizarre tit-for-tat contraceptive battle. The idea that it should be offered as some kind of squaring-up with your partner in return for bearing children is equally ludicrous.

That said, for various reasons, we have never used 'hormonal treatment' in our relationship, and I can honestly say that I'd give any future male chemical contraceptive a bash when our family is finished.

A elective surgical procedure, however, is my choice.

Macha

I take your points, but I'm still waiting for someone to suggest that magical 3rd option that doesn't mean the woman is on extended hormonal treatment or the man has a vasectomy...It's not about being 'brow-beaten' into anything. It's about accepting that one or the other most probably will have to happen and if one person puts their foot down, they're necessarily forcing the other person into a corner.

I think your comment about the contraceptive being taken with another partner can be resolved quite easily: if I do end up with a new partner in my 50s, ie, after those 29 years with someon else, I know menopause will be just around the corner so there will be no vasectomies on the cards.

Can I ask you a personal question: if you don't rely on hormonal treatment, what do you rely on?

stovelid

taconnol wrote: »

I take your points, but I'm still waiting for someone to suggest that magical 3rd option that doesn't mean the woman is on extended hormonal treatment or the man has a vasectomy...It's not about being 'brow-beaten' into anything. It's about accepting that one or the other most probably will have to happen and if one person puts their foot down, they're necessarily forcing the other person into a corner.


Can I ask you a personal question: if you don't rely on hormonal treatment, what do you rely on?

Condoms. Then for a period of time, nothing. At the moment, an unborn baby. .

Not saying that I wouldn't fancy a vasectomy later in life, but too many things could happen in the near future for me to undergo an operation that is not guaranteed as reversible.

Macha

Well congratulations

stovelid

taconnol wrote: »

Well congratulations

Thanks.

Maybe the coming months will have me baying for the snip...

Tigerbaby

i had the snip at age 32. 16 years on we are still together. it took a lot of worry away from our relationship, allowed us to relax an awful lot more. thus we become more complete, and the "gift of the snip" showed my wife how commited i was! as a procedure it wasnt that painful, and has been more than compensated by our closeness and contentedness in the intervening years.

I would say that if you are "finished" forming a family, then you could do a lot worse than vasectomony. it has brought us a deeper sensuality in an emotional as well as a physical sense.

finally, believe me there are NO affects to a mans perfromance after the snip. I was an average lover before it and i havent changed since !

its a personal decision though, and every person must make their own mind up.

all the best,
T

Kernel32

I am male, married 10 years and have 2 kids. I intend to get the snip this year. We are both done having kids and would like to reduce the chances of a surprise. It's also by far the simplest solution. It's a minor surgery and relatively cheap in comparison to tube tying for a woman which is much more involved. A lot of the reasons I have read about on this thread to not get it done I find disturbing. If you don't trust each other then a vasectomy is the least of your worries and if your immediate reaction is fear without even educating yourself then your doing your partner a disservice.

tallaght01

To kernel and tigerbaby...

I think it's fair enough to point out that vasectomy is a popular and effective form of contraception. You're absoloutely right in saying that it's a very viable option.

But what do you guys think about being "expected" to have it done by your partner?

Did you guys have it done of your own free will, or were you coerced?

Abi

Tigerbaby wrote: »

it took a lot of worry away from our relationship, allowed us to relax an awful lot more. thus we become more complete, and the "gift of the snip" showed my wife how commited i was! as a procedure it wasnt that painful, and has been more than compensated by our closeness and contentedness in the intervening years.

I would say that if you are "finished" forming a family, then you could do a lot worse than vasectomony. it has brought us a deeper sensuality in an emotional as well as a physical sense.

finally, believe me there are NO affects to a mans perfromance after the snip. I was an average lover before it and i havent changed since !

its a personal decision though, and every person must make their own mind up

Kernel32 wrote: »

I am male, married 10 years and have 2 kids. I intend to get the snip this year. We are both done having kids and would like to reduce the chances of a surprise. It's also by far the simplest solution. It's a minor surgery and relatively cheap in comparison to tube tying for a woman which is much more involved.

immediate reaction is fear without even educating yourself then your doing your partner a disservice.

+ 1 to both of these posts. Very mature attitudes to the whole matter, and some very valid points I forgot to mention. It is as though as a couple you become sexually liberated, and able to express yourself without fear.

Did you guys have it done of your own free will, or were you coerced?

I understand your angle, but you feel like this probably out of fear of the procedure itself. But there is a big difference between being coerced and discussing your options as a couple. For the majority of couples its the most obvious and easiest solution- that said; no woman is going force her husband to have the snip. But most of the fear is borne from a lack of education on the matter. In a loving, trusting, respectful relationship neither partner forces the other to do anything they dont want to do.

tallaght01

[QUOTE=Abigayle;55804230 I understand your angle, but you feel like this probably out of fear of the procedure itself. But there is a big difference between being coerced and discussing your options as a couple. For the majority of couples its the most obvious and easiest solution- that said; no woman is going force her husband to have the snip. But most of the fear is borne from a lack of education on the matter. In a loving, trusting, respectful relationship neither partner forces the other to do anything they dont want to do.[/QUOTE]

I think there were women on here who would pretty much force their hubbies to have the snip

In response to your points, I have neither a fear of, or lack of education about, the procedure.

However, if you're arguing that a vasectomy is a viable possibility when two people who respect each other's opinions come to the conclusion that it's what they want to do, then I agree. Absoloutely. I think most sensible people accept that vasectomies have their place.

But if you think that the points you make above mean that it's OK to "expect" somebody you supposedly love to have a surgical procedure, then I'm afraid you're simply wrong.

Abi

tallaght01 wrote: »

I think there were women on here who would pretty much force their hubbies to have the snip .

I can only suggest that they know where all exits are at all times :pac:

tallaght01 wrote: »

OK to "expect" somebody you supposedly love to have a surgical procedure

Absolutely not no. I do feel it is the mans choice. My angle has always been that there the female version of the procedure carries a big health risk, but definitely dont think that this is a reason why a man should have it done instead.















/Hides scissors

John Mason

OMG, do people actually believe this? Two points: -

1. If this is how you feel about your partner, you really shouldn’t be with them anymore. If there is no trust there is no relationship;

2. What if the girls he is shagging are on the pill, sterilised, use the morning after pill or abortions for contraception. His vasectomy is not going to stop him bring home STD’s

I really can’t believe what is being said in this thread. Contraception is the responsibility of both people in the relationship.

No woman has the right to force a man to have an operation he doesn’t want. Likewise, if you don’t want to take the pill - don’t. There are plenty of other barrier methods of contraception out there.

Oh and how many women get pregnant each year after their husbands have had the snip.

milod

taconnol wrote: »

1. Despite the posters who run to the abortion thread every 90 seconds, most women are of the opinion that both men and women have babies, especially if they're in a long-term, serious relationship.

2. I understand that one but the morning after pill is very effective in emergency cases.

3. No offense intended but with those thought processes going on, I'm not surprised he is now her ex-husband.

I would have said that all 3 points were cynical.

In response to your points...

1. Women have babies - and no amount of political correctness can change this. If you can't see that the experience is totally different for each gender, and that males have a different aspect and outlook on fatherhood as opposed to motherhood, then your life experience has not taught you that lesson yet.

2. Morning after pills are very useful indeed, if you can get them, or you're totally mentally focussed on the issue, not wracked with doubt or moral concerns, not suffering some post traumatic condition, etc etc etc. Again we have the argument of idealism v. pragmatism.

3. Yes marriages break up, but usually because of a lack of pragmatism, or an excess of idealism. She left him actually; his constant demands to have more children and his idealistic notion that he had some say in her fertility, eventually caused so much upset and argument that the marriage ended.

Taconnl, I'm not arguing against vasectomy here - I'm arguing for some reality around how the decision is made. Some guys might do it, some might not, I probably would, but completely understand those who wouldn't.

The real issue is that the sterilisation choice isn't always based on one parameter, i.e. the relative simplicity of the male op versus the female op. There are many factors to be taken into account and there is no 'right' answer...

Macha

1. You'd better tell all the men out there who think those kids are theirs. Of couse it's different for both genders. Saying that only women have babies is taking it too far.

2. Sorry I'm not really understanding your point here. I think the catholic church has a few interesting things to say on sterilisation so morality is totally subjective.

3. 'idealistic notion that he had some say in her fertility'?...I'm not sure what to say to that...

Kernel32

tallaght01 wrote: »

Did you guys have it done of your own free will, or were you coerced?

Its very difficult for me to answer that in the same context as how a lot of other people seem to view relationships or their relationships in particular.

For me there was never a question that I wouldn't get it done based on all the available options. You could say I expected to get it done once we were happy that our family was complete. I never felt coerced but I did feel it was the right thing to do for the relationship and for my wife. Why would I avoid a minor procedure and instead keep a lot of the burden on her to ensure our decision to not have more kids was kept?

Dragan

Kernel32 wrote: »

For me there was never a question that I wouldn't get it done based on all the available options. You could say I expected to get it done once we were happy that our family was complete. I never felt coerced but I did feel it was the right thing to do for the relationship and for my wife. Why would I avoid a minor procedure and instead keep a lot of the burden on her to ensure our decision to not have more kids was kept?

I think the only issue that anyone ever had in this thread was that certain posters seemed to feel their fella would get it done simply because they wanted to. I assume had you made the decision to not undergo the procedure your wife would have accepted that. Me thinks some of the people in this thread would be less likely, based on opinions posted.

Kernel32

Dragan wrote: »

I think the only issue that anyone ever had in this thread was that certain posters seemed to feel their fella would get it done simply because they wanted to. I assume had you made the decision to not undergo the procedure your wife would have accepted that. Me thinks some of the people in this thread would be less likely, based on opinions posted.

Well here's my take on this whole "expect" thing.

Personally I don't think it's unreasonable for a woman to expect her partner to have a vasectomy once they reach a point of not wanting any more children or not wanting any children at all. I also don't think it's unreasonable for the man to not want to get it done if he is not fully on board that there will be no more children. At this point it's a discussion within the relationship.

I do think it's unreasonable to not want to get it done because you are fearful of the procedure, or you are considering the fact the relationship may end at some point and you might want kids with someone else. In the latter case you're not thinking inside the relationship but outside the relationship. If that is a consideration for either partner then you have a much bigger discussion to have. I know that relationships do end but you have to deal with that if it happens, if you are committed to the one you are in then commit and don't let factors like that influence your decision.

This is why I find so many of the comments pretty bizarre in this thread, because they are not bound within the context of the relationship which is the only place you can have a discussion like this. Once you take into consideration factors outside those bounds then the way forward will always be clouded.

I'm not sure if any of that made any sense, I am no relationship expert myself.

Well I said to him "Honey when we have our 2 children a girl and boy (in that order) I would expect you to get the snip"

He said "no problem" so that conversation is over and done with

thebman

Kernel32 wrote: »

I do think it's unreasonable to not want to get it done because you are fearful of the procedure, or you are considering the fact the relationship may end at some point and you might want kids with someone else. In the latter case you're not thinking inside the relationship but outside the relationship. If that is a consideration for either partner then you have a much bigger discussion to have. I know that relationships do end but you have to deal with that if it happens, if you are committed to the one you are in then commit and don't let factors like that influence your decision.

That's illogical, as already stated relationships don't always last forever, in fact they don't ever last forever, someone inevitably dies, best case scenario. Your not talking about something that might happen, its more of a matter of when it happens. It might happen too late to be relevant in some cases but that really isn't a reason to not consider you might be unlucky. To claim people aren't fully committed because they have doubts about what the future holds for them is illogical as everybody has doubts and concerns about their future. I find it illogical to tell people that they should be ignoring a trait common to pretty much everyone. To not want this to be taking into account when asking someone to have a permanent operation is unreasonable and illogical IMO.

Statistically women live longer as already stated but unless this is in 98% of cases, why should men presume that they'll die first or that the relationship won't end prematurely? After all the reason they are being asked to have the surgery is because the pill being 98% or so (I'm too lazy to go back and double check the stat) effective isn't good enough for women. Why shouldn't men apply the same logic to the relationship when being asked to undergo a permanent procedure (I know it can be reversed sometimes but I don't think its reversible over 95% of the time)? I'm pretty sure less than 90% of marriages are successful at this stage in Ireland so men shouldn't presume they are going to last forever because there is sufficient evidence to doubt this will occur.

Being happy now is not a good enough reason to throw out logic when making a major decision like this and some people here don't seem to think it is a major decision because it can sometimes be reversed (what are the stats on that again?). When its your body, its your choice, you can't tell someone that a small operation isn't going to have a major impact on their life which is the problem most men probably have with this operation. It maybe a small procedure but it has major consequences.

Sorry there are good reasons for a man not to want to undergo the operation no matter how much some people here may dislike that but there are no good reasons for him not to consider it at all or be able to discuss it with his partner in a reasonable way. Of course if the woman demands or tries to insist he undergo the operation then he has sufficient reason to not be reasonable on the issue IMO. If your going to be rude and try to make demands that other people do things to their body that they don't want without being understanding of their reasons for not wanting to and talking it out with them then you shouldn't expect people to be polite, reasonable or give in to your demands.

That is my overly theoretical take on this given I'm not in this situation. Of course men can and should consider it an option but it most certainly is not something women should consider them to be obliged to do for them IMO and I imagine its the opinion of most men.

Dragan

brim4brim wrote: »

(what are the stats on that again?).

about 65%

Kernel32

Lets take a simple scenario. Two people get married and have kids.

When you get married you make a commitment. You say to your partner you are the one for me forever. Forever being until one partner dies. This is your commitment, one or both of you may not hold up your end but that is the commitment you make.

You decide to have children. As part of that decision you commit to each other you will raise those children together and you also believe your relationship is healthy and strong enough to introduce those children into it.

You reach a point where your family is complete. The safest option to ensure that continues that way is a vasectomy. And yes I do believe that is safer than the female pill and just about everything else. Any pill anyone takes for a considerable period of time has risks. But you say, hey hold on a minute, we might break up down the road here and I might want kids with someone else or you might kick the bucket early and I might want to start a new family. It just doesn't make sense to me. If you made the first two commitments then the last one seems like a no brainer to me. In particular you decided to have kids, which is generally non-reversible, but yet balk at the notion of a possibly reversible procedure?

Macha

Well said, Kernel32

Abi

irishbird wrote: »

2. What if the girls he is shagging are on the pill, sterilised, use the morning after pill or abortions for contraception. His vasectomy is not going to stop him bring home STD’s

I dont mean to sound rude, but how is trust an issue here. Im trying to understand your angle. Do you think your partner would shag rings around himself if he got the snip? I know I completely and utterly trust my OH. Its part of being in a relationship / marraige. Without it, there is nothing.

irishbird wrote: »

Contraception is the responsibility of both people in the relationship.

So sterilisations all round then?


Kernel +1 for that post btw. Thought provoking.

Tigerbaby

sorry about the delay replying. I was too engrossed watching my beloved Chelsea finally overcoming Liverpool yesterday !!

re; your question. I didnt feel coerced into the snip. I did feel a bit wobbly about it at the time because I was advised it was a one-way street and very hard to reverse. Also, I'm a bit of a wuss and no man likes having someone messing with his dangly bits.

We had had twins, and didnt really want another set. Managing two little ones together is just a *little* draining.. !! It was a case of me getting a simple procedure done or Mary going through a much more complex operation.

I suppose we looked on it as a team effort, and it was much easier for me to have it done. I honestly dont regret it. The compensations of being relaxed and free of worry together more than make up for it.

Its all good..

best of luck,

T