The snip

John Mason

2 stroke wrote: »

I would think him keeping his options open to have kids in another relationship is the last thing any wife would want to think about.

well, what about if the wife was run over by a bus then?

Cathmandooo

irishbird wrote: »

well, what about if the wife was run over by a bus then?

Exactly! If I died I'd want my husband to live his life and be happy after me, that could mean he meets someone and wants to have children with her. I wouldnt like to be the cause of him not being happy again.

coffee_cake

Abigayle wrote: »

The consequence falls on me because I am the one that gets pregnant. I refuse to apologise for being a woman. And, as a woman, Ive paid my dues. I think you are thinking outside of the relationship box Blue. I dont mean that to sound in any way patronizing, but why should it always be the woman that has to hop up on the hospital bed.

Who's asking you to apologise for anything?
Personally if someone had to get the op done, I would say it's my body, I'd rather get it done myself than rely on someone else.

I get that you are very responsible what happens to your body, I admire that. But if the woman bears children for her husband, the very least he can do out of respect is to have a small procedure done.

Mmmf.
While I agree it's probably better, and no doubt a great choice when decided together, it's this "it's the least he can do and he has to do it" attitude I'm not comfortable with

Women face catastrophic body changes in their life time. Day in day out, we fear pregnancy, or infertility, menopause is hellish for a lot of women, I personally live in great fear of ovarian or breast cancer. Yes, these other illnesses are not on topic, but what Im getting at is - we suffer enough.

Eh tbh I'd regard all that as completely unrelated, but hey that's me...

professore

Thrill wrote: »

It's a bad idea to get the snip imo. Relationships often fall apart and people go their separate ways. If that happens and he were to meet someone else, want to settle down and have kids with the new love of his life, then he's screwed.

A man would want to be nuts to get it done. A woman either, unless she was absolutely 100% sure she never wanted another. Theres no telling what the future holds. I know of plenty of failed marriages/relationships involving people with kids. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone else here has as well. They go on and meet new partners and have kids together.

That would be denied to those who've had the snip.

In most cases it's reversible ... I'm a man with 3 kids, I don't want any more. If I do split with my wife and meet someone else I still don't want any more.

Dragan

I think it's a bit foolish to expect anyone to get any kind of life altering operation without discussing it with them first. If I found out any long term girlfriend "expected" anything like that it would be a point of contention for me.

Ask me first.

ambro25

professore wrote: »

In most cases it's reversible ...

Enlighten me, please. As I know for a fact that "in most cases it's not reversible".

professore wrote: »

I'm a man with 3 kids, I don't want any more. If I do split with my wife and meet someone else I still don't want any more.

Yay you :pac: But hey, guess what... not everyone is you! Fancy that!

Balmed Out

a vasectomy has around a 50 % chance of reversal while tubal ligation is reversable in nearly every case. The risks of suffering unwanted side affects is also far higher for a vasectomy.
As for posters complaining about all they do for men, f off. Unless your giving your kid away then you bear the child for you and your partner. The idea that women alone worry about unplanned pregnancies, infertility and cancers is just bizare.
The sexism from many girls posts is ridiculous. Ye are just so lucky not to have to be bothered shaving your face every single day, to have to worry about unsightly bulges appearing in your pants when your doing your shopping etc etc. Ye really dont know how good ye have it. Seriously though unless youve lived as both a man and a woman you cant give out about physical facts relating to your sex vs the other.

St Bill

Balmed Out wrote: »

to have to worry about unsightly bulges appearing in your pants when your doing your shopping etc etc.

If you want to steal things and hide them down your pants then that's your decision

Macha

Balmed Out wrote: »

a vasectomy has around a 50 % chance of reversal while tubal ligation is reversable in nearly every case. The risks of suffering unwanted side affects is also far higher for a vasectomy.
As for posters complaining about all they do for men, f off. Unless your giving your kid away then you bear the child for you and your partner. The idea that women alone worry about unplanned pregnancies, infertility and cancers is just bizare.
The sexism from many girls posts is ridiculous. Ye are just so lucky not to have to be bothered shaving your face every single day, to have to worry about unsightly bulges appearing in your pants when your doing your shopping etc etc. Ye really dont know how good ye have it. Seriously though unless youve lived as both a man and a woman you cant give out about physical facts relating to your sex vs the other.

You're trolling, right? You clearly haven't read any references that have been put up during this thread and are pulling facts out of the air to support your opinion.

The risks surrounding female sterilisation are much higher than male sterilisation. Go back and find my post where I reference a study showing minimum 14 deaths due to female sterilisation in 1 year and none for men. Male sterilisation is a straighforward procedure, whereas women have to be in hospital for up to 2 weeks.

Female sterilisation reversal success is at around 50% but male sterilisation refersal is at 30% so they aren't a million miles away from each other.

What? You have to shave your face every day? I think I'll save most of my sympathy for women who have to shave their armpits legs and bikinis every day. Or wax (ouch) And if they dont? Well I certainly remember all the hoo-haa when Julia Roberts showed up with hairy armpits on the red carpet. The media couldn't talk about anything else. Man shows up without shaving? Meh.

Or what about the fact that women have to pay more on average to get their hair cut in a salon? The social pressure to buy and wear makeup? High heels? I could go on.

Just on the topic of only women having to worry about unplanned pregnancies. Can I ask the men in here if there are ever any signs put up in men's bathrooms about unplanned pregnancy help lines, etc? It would be interesting if there were.

Balmed Out

taconnol wrote: »

You're trolling, right? You clearly haven't read any references that have been put up during this thread and are pulling facts out of the air to support your opinion.

The risks surrounding female sterilisation are much higher than male sterilisation. Go back and find my post where I reference a study showing minimum 14 deaths due to female sterilisation in 1 year and none for men. Male sterilisation is a straighforward procedure, whereas women have to be in hospital for up to 2 weeks.

Female sterilisation reversal success is at around 50% but male sterilisation refersal is at 30% so they aren't a million miles away from each other.

I cant find the post with a reference to that 'study' but I would question its reliability. You have to compare like with like ie sterilisation as a purely lifestyle choice in a western medical facility. Many tubal ligations occur after a c section and this isnt a like vs like comparison. This idea that tubal ligations are an extremely complicated operation is wrong, they are often done under a local anaesthetic.
Depending on where you check the figures for succesful reversal of a vasectomy vary from 50 to 70 %.
Successful repair of the fallopian tubes is now possible in 98% of women who have had a tubal ligation, regardless of the type of sterilization procedure.
IVF in vitro fertilization may overcome fertility problems in patients not suited to a tubal reversal.

Your Wrong and are pulling facts out of the air to support your opinion. Research it like i did honey.

As for the rest of your post, save me the violin music. Oh those terrible social pressures from the world around us. We both, as in either gender have to live with these.

taconnol wrote: »

What? You have to shave your face every day? I think I'll save most of my sympathy for women who have to shave their armpits legs and bikinis every day. Or wax (ouch) And if they dont? Well I certainly remember all the hoo-haa when Julia Roberts showed up with hairy armpits on the red carpet. The media couldn't talk about anything else. Man shows up without shaving? Meh.
Or what about the fact that women have to pay more on average to get their hair cut in a salon? The social pressure to buy and wear makeup? High heels? I could go on.

Dont go pointing your witches finger at men being the cause of your problems, i have no memory of this Julia Roberts episode. Not many men read this type of 'media'. If women preasurise eachother in this way then thats too bad but ill save my sympathy for something else. Lots of women dont shave so often and most guys dont care.

taconnol wrote: »

Just on the topic of only women having to worry about unplanned pregnancies. Can I ask the men in here if there are ever any signs put up in men's bathrooms about unplanned pregnancy help lines, etc? It would be interesting if there were

And whats the breakdown in the location of condom machines. Does it mean that women dont care if a guy wears one or not? Hardly. Dont be grasping at silly straws.

Balmed Out

One other thing I dont mean to trivialise social pressures of women but you cant put the blame on men. Its like men giving out that male health issues such as testicular cancer get far less money spent per patient in terms of publicising the risks etc then womens, thats not womens fault its mens for not standing up and making it a bigger issue.

Abi

bluewolf wrote: »

Who's asking you to apologise for anything?
Personally if someone had to get the op done, I would say it's my body, I'd rather get it done myself than rely on someone else....

I did not mean apologise in the literal sense. LOL it would be a cold day in hell before that would happen. And I think our difference of opinion lies within our difference of circumstances tbh.

bluewolf wrote: »

While I agree it's probably better, and no doubt a great choice when decided together, it's this "it's the least he can do and he has to do it" attitude I'm not comfortable with...

There is no probably about it. My angle is the comparitive health implications. I never actually said a guy 'has to do it' either. But I do know one thing, it was my OH that brought it up with me because of our nearly-every-month scares. I thought it was quite responsible of him, and showed he was comfortable enough as a man to take the step.

bluewolf wrote: »

I'd regard all that as completely unrelated, but hey that's me...

I pointed that out myself, watch for it ->

Women face catastrophic body changes in their life time. Day in day out, we fear pregnancy, or infertility, menopause is hellish for a lot of women, I personally live in great fear of ovarian or breast cancer. Yes, these other illnesses are not on topic, but what Im getting at is - we suffer enough.

I think you are either picking me up completely wrong or being pointlessly rebellious. Im hoping its option one, because Im not burning my bras..

Macha

Balmed Out, you have quite a short memory. On the one hand you say that women don't know how good they have it because men have to shave. When I point out that women have to shave a whole lot more you chastise me for bringing up 'terrible social pressures'. I could say exactly the same thing to you, but that would be hypocritical of me.

Eh 'witches finger'? I'd cut out the name calling if I were you. The 'honey' came across as quite condescending as well, just in case you're interested.

I don't think women pressurise themselves, I think society (which is made up of men and women) pressurises women to look a certain way - and have oddly hairless bodies..Again I'm not blaming men for anything - you're kinda putting words in my mouth.

BTW - "Julia Roberts unshaven armpits" gets about 6,000 pages in Google - pathetic.

Just on the condom machines, they put them in women's toilets as well, just in case you weren't aware of that. I think it would be very telling if there were no unplanned pregnancy signs in men's toilets - it means the NGOs don't think they have an audience there.

Anway, that's totally off-topic. I'd like to see some references for your claims on sterilisation reversal success rates please. Oh, and also that tube litigation is done under local anaesthetic often because the NHS in the UK don't agree with you. According to them, fertility only returns in 50%-80% of cases, and that depends on age and type of procedure done. Also the majority of procedures are done under general anaesthetic. Did someone say 'grasping at silly straws'?

Balmed Out

taconnol wrote: »

Balmed Out, you have quite a short memory. On the one hand you say that women don't know how good they have it because men have to shave. When I point out that women have to shave a whole lot more you chastise me for bringing up 'terrible social pressures'. I could say exactly the same thing to you, but that would be hypocritical of me.

Eh 'witches finger'? I'd cut out the name calling if I were you. The 'honey' came across as quite condescending as well, just in case you're interested.

I don't think women pressurise themselves, I think society (which is made up of men and women) pressurises women to look a certain way - and have oddly hairless bodies..Again I'm not blaming men for anything - you're kinda putting words in my mouth.

BTW - "Julia Roberts unshaven armpits" gets about 6,000 pages in Google - pathetic.

Just on the condom machines, they put them in women's toilets as well, just in case you weren't aware of that. I think it would be very telling if there were no unplanned pregnancy signs in men's toilets - it means the NGOs don't think they have an audience there.

Anway, that's totally off-topic. I'd like to see some references for your claims on sterilisation reversal success rates please. Oh, and also that tube litigation is done under local anaesthetic often because the NHS in the UK don't agree with you. According to them, fertility only returns in 50%-80% of cases, and that depends on age and type of procedure done. Also the majority of procedures are done under general anaesthetic. Did someone say 'grasping at silly straws'?

I cant remember how you put it but you made some sort of reference to how great wikipedia is and if you have a look at it you will see all the statistics i mentioned. look up vasectomy and tubal ligation.

I think the name calling began with troll and as for honey that was supposed to be condescending in just the same way troll was. You went onto say my figures were plucked from the air, i hope you can retract that.

Men as well as women try to look their best when they go out or whatever but i think its fair to say a lot of women will comment on what other women wear in a way that men just dont do. Men make very little coments on others appearence, women do. These social pressures do for the most sake come from other women. A lot of women / girls can be very cruel to eachother, ive listened to thin girls who were bullied for being too thin, and not so thin girls being bullied for being overweight. Guys dont do this to anything near the same degree.
Im sorry if the witches figure comment was unfair but it seems that some posters have a chip on their shoulders that they are women and in their minds this means they get a monopolisation on lifes problems. You quoted my message and in my mind defended this opinion. If i luck at a quote from a message or two ago "Day in day out, we fear pregnancy, or infertility, menopause is hellish for a lot of women, I personally live in great fear of ovarian or breast cancer. Yes, these other illnesses are not on topic, but what Im getting at is - we suffer enough." The menopause comment excluded men face all these same worries (obviously a different set of cancers).

Going back to the original topic.
It is selfish, controlling and just plain wrong to expect someone of either sex to sterilise themselves.

As for the responsibility for contraception if a woman chooses to take the pill, thats their choice. It shouldnt be done as some sort of tit for tat arrangement. I will continue prefer to be responible for myself and use a condom with due care and attention. If theres any problem i have no problem paying for a morning after pill. I think the pills side affects can be a bit much.

Oh and as for shaving most women dont need to shave most days. Men do. And that comment was obviously lighthearted anyhow. You should have been able to tell by me continuing on with "seriously though".

Nevyn

Blamed out if you do have a problem with witches and their fingers it could be that you have never had a good look at the finger of a real witch, if that is the case I will happily invite you to take a look at the middle finger on my left hand.

Balmed Out

Thaedydal wrote: »

Blamed out if you do have a problem with witches and their fingers it could be that you have never had a good look at the finger of a real witch, if that is the case I will happily invite you to take a look at the middle finger on my left hand.

and what does witch rhyme with

Nevyn

Balmed Out wrote: »

and what does witch rhyme with

Oh I am one of them as well, tis a description I am very comfortable with and a fair amount of people who post on this site are aware of just how much of a bitch I am, oh sorry were you looking for a medal for observational skills or were you trying to insult me ?

Balmed Out

to be honest i was just pointing out that you were attacking someone for no reason, i made no comment to you and whatever chip on your shoulder leads you to respond to a comment not directed at you is beyond me.

stovelid

2 stroke wrote: »

I would think him keeping his options open to have kids in another relationship is the last thing any wife would want to think about.

Hence some of the blase assumption(s) that it's OK to pressure him into getting the snip.

Balmed Out

"I doubt your comment in this thread was a slip of the keyboard given how witches pointing their fingers implies them cursing a man's manhood."

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Are you crazy. Who knows that????? I used the term witch in the common usual way, describing a female behaving in a bitchy way. In the same way a guy might be called a langer, meaning bitch or bastard but not in such a crude way.

How many people believe in real witches to be fair?
Look im sorry if your pagan and witches have some sort of significance with that but to be honest its not something i would expect somebody to.

As for taking care when a witch is watching that ssimply childish, i wont be threathened or bullied by someone who takes a blasse comment to heart like that. As i said sorry if what i said offends your religion or whatever but kop yourself on.
"I doubt your comment in this thread was a slip of the keyboard given how witches pointing their fingers implies them cursing a man's manhood."
please

Nevyn

Really so it's common where you are in cork Donal to call women witches in a demeaning and dismissive fashion ?

Balmed Out

Yes lady death, 32 of St Michaels Secondary School Dublin 11 it is. Some people do actually use the term witch outside of pagan circles and halloween. Its also normal for someone to respond in a demeaning and dismissive manner when spoken to in the same manner in the first place. Way to go for being able to follow a link and use my name, lots of claps. Its also nomal where im from to apologise when inadvertantly causing offence as i did. Its also normal to apologise when ones wrong, but you dont seem capable of that.

b3t4

Balmed Out wrote: »

As for the responsibility for contraception if a woman chooses to take the pill, thats their choice. It shouldnt be done as some sort of tit for tat arrangement. I will continue prefer to be responible for myself and use a condom with due care and attention. If theres any problem i have no problem paying for a morning after pill. I think the pills side affects can be a bit much.

Right so, you and your partner choose to only rely on condoms therefore she does not have to take the pill continously. You may think yourself all high and mighty with allowing your partner not to take the pill regularly but you're perfectly happy to potentially force her into a situation that she might have to take a 6 month dose of it i.e. the morning after pill? How on earth does that make sense to you?

A

Seraphina

Balmed Out wrote: »

As for the responsibility for contraception if a woman chooses to take the pill, thats their choice. I

you're kidding right?

this all seems to come back to women choosing the pill and choosing to have kids. guess what? its not that simple. even condoms PLUS the pill have a failure rate, and i'm sorry, but like FUCK i'm going to trust condoms and nothing else to prevent pregnancy, and i think if you were the one at the risk of getting pregnant, you wouldn't either.

fact is, i'm 23 and looking at another 25ish years of hormonal contraception, to prevent something i am NEVER going to want in the first place. you can't even IMAGINE the kind of side effects some of this stuff gives you, and it really pisses me off the way men are so blasé about contraception. all this 'i use a condom and i use it carefully' is bollocks, even careful use has a higher risk than the pill alone.

yeah i'm sure unplanned pregnancies are awful for men too. at the end of the day, you can walk away, and women can't. sure you might be hauled into court for maintenence (and i don't deny some guys do get screwed) but a lot of men can and do walk away, throw her some money each week from afar, and get on with their lives.

personally? i'd have an abortion and not go through with an unplanned pregnancy, which in itself is a horrific operation. i'd get my tubes tied if it was actually an option for me, but as Thaed has pointed out, the backwards views of some doctors in Ireland that women are baby making machines means its not possible. not forgetting the horrible hormonal side effects having that done at my age would leave me with.

i would never force or expect anyone to have an operation, but i really don't think guys appreciate the **** we go through just being women, and getting so worked up about having a vasectomy is ridiculous, especially when it *is* reversible, and i'm sure if you couldn't reverse it, and really desperately wanted to have kids/ more kids, you could extract semen for artificial insemination anyway. if it were that bloody simple for women, i would have had it done years ago

i really dont think we'd have this kind attitude from guys if you actually knew what it was like.

Crash

b3t4 wrote: »

Right so, you and your partner choose to only rely on condoms therefore she does not have to take the pill continously. You may think yourself all high and mighty with allowing your partner not to take the pill regularly but you're perfectly happy to potentially force her into a situation that she might have to take a 6 month dose of it i.e. the morning after pill? How on earth does that make sense to you?

A

That has to be one of the most bizarre arguments i've ever heard here.

So, they're making use of a form of contraceptive which under perfect circumstances is 98% effective, loses around another 13% on that due to improper use or accidents in certain cases, and is the only form of contraceptive available to a man other than a surgical procedure.

But apparently, thats not enough because he's potentially forcing her to have to take the morning after pill? what is your argument here, that he should get a vasectomy because of this? or what, because, otherwise thats simply a poorly structured argument.

I'm reasonably happy with using condoms as mine and my partners chosen form of contraceptive, at that stage it is essentially out of my hands as to her choice of being on and off the pill. And to be honest, I think you would have a hard time finding a man who would not be more than willing, if the situation arose and the recipient of the pill had to be the man, to take such a treatment. Unfortunately, the basic difference in male and female anatomy mean that the person recieving such a dose is female, and that is regrettable. but:

1) you cannot hold the opposite gender responsible for anatomical differences
2)you cannot lambast someone for their choice of contraceptive, and in this case choosing the only form of contraceptive that is mmale-oriented.

Reku

Seraphina wrote: »

you're kidding right?

this all seems to come back to women choosing the pill and choosing to have kids. guess what? its not that simple. even condoms PLUS the pill have a failure rate, and i'm sorry, but like FUCK i'm going to trust condoms and nothing else to prevent pregnancy, and i think if you were the one at the risk of getting pregnant, you wouldn't either.

fact is, i'm 23 and looking at another 25ish years of hormonal contraception, to prevent something i am NEVER going to want in the first place. you can't even IMAGINE the kind of side effects some of this stuff gives you, and it really pisses me off the way men are so blasé about contraception. all this 'i use a condom and i use it carefully' is bollocks, even careful use has a higher risk than the pill alone.

Just to point out (hopefully Dragan can correct me if I'm wrong since I believe he's said he works with statistics) AFAIK the combined failure rate of multiple methods of contraception would be the multiple of their individual chances of failure, i.e. a percentage of a percentage, as such the odds of failure of condom+pill is not all that different to that of the vasectomy.

vasectomy = 0.15%
comdom + pill = 8% * 15% = 1.2%
1.2/0.15 = 8 => you're only 8 times more likely to have an unwanted pregnancy with the comdom + pill, so it's not the massive difference some folks seem to be thinking it is, maybe it's just my pessimism colouring my take on those odds but I wouldn't rely on it alone if I were serious about not having (more) kids.

Nevyn

Balmed Out wrote: »

Its also normal for someone to respond in a demeaning and dismissive manner when spoken to in the same manner in the first place.

You should have reported taconnol's post if you had a problem with it.

Nevyn

farohar wrote: »

Just to point out (hopefully Dragan can correct me if I'm wrong since I believe he's said he works with statistics) AFAIK the combined failure rate of multiple methods of contraception would be the multiple of their individual chances of failure, i.e. a percentage of a percentage, as such the odds of failure of condom+pill is not all that different to that of the vasectomy.

vasectomy = 0.15%
comdom + pill = 8% * 15% = 1.2%
1.2/0.15 = 8 => you're only 8 times more likely to have an unwanted pregnancy with the comdom + pill, so it's not the massive difference some folks seem to be thinking it is, maybe it's just my pessimism colouring my take on those odds but I wouldn't rely on it alone if I were serious about not having (more) kids.

Those statistics look well and good and fine and reasonable and then my son calls my name and he is that probability that came into being while using the pill and condoms.

Contraception is imperfect but a vasectomy is less in imperfect then some of the other options.

Dragan

Farohar is pretty much spot on with how he worked out his failure rates but the simple fact of the matter is that a failure rate on paper is generally speaking a pregnancy somewhere.

Personally I would never trust just one form of contraception. If the girl is on the pill then I still use a condom. If I have no condom then I don't have sex. If I had a vasectomy ( actually giving it serious consideration lately , I have no intentions or desire to ever have kids ) then I would still ensure that I was wearing a condom. And even then I could still wind up with a kid on the way and decisions to make and that is not a situation I would ever like to be in but I know it is a decision I will deal with should it ever arise.

The simple fact is that this is not the topic of this thread however, nor is the topic of the thread a blame game for who's fault it is when someone gets pregnant. The simple fact of the matter is that every time I have sex I choose to do so ( as does everyone here for that matter ) in full knowledge that there is a chance, no matter how small, that I could end up in that situation from it.

If you have a hard time dealing with this concept, or with the expected decisions and possible responsibilities that could stem from the act of having sex then do not do it.

It is also pointless in trying to argue the merit of the fears of one side over the fears of another imho.

thebman

Thaedydal wrote: »

Contraception is imperfect but a vasectomy is less imperfect then some of the other options.

Thats very easy to say when your not the one its being done to TBH