The snip

Nevyn

vandalise thier body....

wow.

sorry but while I do think a guy has to want to have it done and for a lot of reasons it can make sense saying it is vandalising thier body esp when compared to the vandalisation to a womans body during pregnancy never mind giving birth my brain just boggles.

Phototoxin

Thaedydal wrote: »

vandalise thier body....

wow.

sorry but while I do think a guy has to want to have it done and for a lot of reasons it can make sense saying it is vandalising their body esp when compared to the vandalisation to a womans body during pregnancy never mind giving birth my brain just boggles.

no offence Thaedydal but you're talking rubbish. Pregnancy is not 'vandalising' your body. It is a natural thing and the creation of life, it is the complete opposite of vandalism. Vandalism would be if the baby was like that of Aliens and sort of punched or clawed its way out !

Additionally I recall reading in a medical text book (will have to find it) that even vasectomy isn't 100% effective in some cases as someone once got pregnant even tho the bloke had the snip. Maybe it was a botched procedure though.

Macha

Would 30-odd years of artificial hormonal treatment fall into your definition of body vandalism, Phototoxin?

nomorebadtown

Thaedydal wrote: »

saying it is vandalising thier body esp when compared to the vandalisation to a womans body during pregnancy never mind giving birth my brain just boggles.

vandalisation of childbirth? hmmm. if you dont want your body vandalised, dont have kids.

i know you pride yourself on being a feminist but the topic is 'would you expect your man to have a vasectomy?' instead yer bitchin about what a raw deal the wimmins have a man's role is frequently reduced to that of a sperm doner so you have to understand the reservations about having an unnecessary op down there. it may make sense in some cases but where the boys are concerned, its not all about the logical.

nomorebadtown

taconnol wrote: »

Would 30-odd years of artificial hormonal treatment fall into your definition of body vandalism, Phototoxin?

a woman decides to go through 30 years of hormonal treatment and it can be reversed without any snipping >_<

Nevyn

Tell that to every women who mourns how they looked after they have had a child,
so much so there are post birth surgical make overs being marketed and books to explain to children that mammy is having a tummy tuck to get thier figure back.


Ok then compare the small scare from a vascetomy to those of an episiotomy.

I would prefer to be a bloke and have a vascetomy scar as aboy modifcation then
the litany of change that happen to a womans body when she had kids.

While no bloke should be forced into having the snip it is something that should be better educated about , hell all of the contraceptive choices should be better be explained to people.

monkeyfudge

A friend of mine had her husband get it done after they'd had two kids and felt it was enough..

But the vasectomy reversed itself after a while and she ended up pregnant again.. she wasn't too happy about that.

nomorebadtown

monkeyfudge wrote: »

A friend of mine had her husband get it done after they'd had two kids and felt it was enough..

But the vasectomy reversed itself after a while and she ended up pregnant again.. she wasn't too happy about that.

is this how marriages work

fenris

The increased risk of dementia is also worth considering.


http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN1318440120070213

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/nu-vmp021207.php

Macha

nomorebadtown wrote: »

a woman decides to go through 30 years of hormonal treatment and it can be reversed without any snipping >_<

I would say most women 'decide' to go through 30 years of artificial hormonal treatment though lack of choice. What are the alternatives with similar effectiveness rates?

You're right that it can be reversed without any snipping but then again, the pill hasn't been around long enough for the long-term effects to be fully understood. However there are signs that there could be some lasting effects:

"Thus, as a consequence of the chronic elevation in sex hormone binding globulin levels, pill users may be at risk for long-standing health problems, including sexual dysfunction."
Source: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/35663.php

Moreover, pill users can suffer a myriad of short-term effects (well, not so short-term if you're taking them for 30 years..), such as:weight gain, breast pain, irregular bleeding, nausea, acne, loss of libido and mood changes.

Those are the tame ones. How about increased risk of breast cancer? Or blood clots in limbs, lungs or brain? High blood pressure?

Yeah. How selfish of some women to consider the possibility that their partner might subject their bodies to artificial procedures in the name of contraception.

nomorebadtown

well someones got a bee in their bonnet!:D
i never said anything about being selfish. my issue is that any one could 'expect' anyone else to go throught with an operation that was not strictly necessary. its not like women go on the pill purely on the behest of men and if a man expected a woman to go on the pill even if it was something she was not comfortable with, then i'm sure he'd get a right bollocking ( ) from the readers of this forum.

Macha

Sorry nomorebadtown, I'm been stuck in front of my feckin laptop studying all weekend. I'm not in the best of moods so apologies!

thebman

Thaedydal wrote: »

Tell that to every women who mourns how they looked after they have had a child,
so much so there are post birth surgical make overs being marketed and books to explain to children that mammy is having a tummy tuck to get thier figure back.


Ok then compare the small scare from a vascetomy to those of an episiotomy.

I would prefer to be a bloke and have a vascetomy scar as aboy modifcation then
the litany of change that happen to a womans body when she had kids.

While no bloke should be forced into having the snip it is something that should be better educated about , hell all of the contraceptive choices should be better be explained to people.

No offense but the whole argument of why guys should get this done so far seems to be but look what women go through for men?

Women don't have to go through anything for men that they aren't willing to do. You don't have to have kids and you don't have to take the pill. Those are choices every woman makes just like getting the snip should ultimately be up to the guy and pressuring your partner on any of these issues isn't exactly a fair thing to do IMO.

Pyr0

I love how no one replied to Farohar, which was an excellent post btw.

If my other half expected me to get the snip because "she's done her part" I'd be thinking is this the type of woman I want in my life, it has 'Control freak' written all over it.

It should be a mutual agreement between both parties, and at the end of the day its the mans choice, the woman has no right to demand or push anything.

Macha

I think you're being a bit too theoretical brim4brim. All of my girlfriends take the pill because they know that leaving it to condoms is like playing with fire - in reality, women don't have a huge amount choice. What are the alternatives?

doonothing

Like... a lot of this argument is that the woman's been through enough on the contraception side, it's the man's turn. Fair enough if that's an agreement between the partners, but as a blanket rule it's just silly.
What's the equivalent penance the man has to complete for what the women's been through to have children? Or her period?

Macha

Doesn't follow because there's nothing a man can do when a woman has her period.
However, we're talking about a situation where he does have an option, albeit an unpleasant one.

Balmed Out

Having unnecessary surgery is vandalising ones body. To ask someone to get a vasectomy or to tie their tubes is just ridiculous and would tell me the person is selfish, a bit of a control freak and well a bit cruel.

Pregnancy and birth are natural processes and are the consequence of ones own choices.

Taking the pill is again ones own choice. If anyone tries to pressurise you to do it then dump them. Women dont have an obligation to take it. I prefer girlfriends not to but would never actually say so to them. I think people are more blasse about condoms due to the pill and this leads to unplanned pregnancies. Its easy to forget to take it or for it not to work due to sickness or whatever. I also think its side effects can be a bit much.

Personally i have always worn a condom I prefer to be responsible myself for my health and avoiding getting anyone pregnant. It means you have to be sure to always carry them and to be prepared to pause and put one on in the midst of passion but ffs its not that big a deal.


Why bring up an episiotomy ? I could be wrong but i dont think they are even carried out anymore.

If someone wants a vasectomy or their tubes tied then fair enough but no one else and im including their partners have the right to suggest or push it.

thebman

doonothing wrote: »

Like... a lot of this argument is that the woman's been through enough on the contraception side, it's the man's turn. Fair enough if that's an agreement between the partners, but as a blanket rule it's just silly.
What's the equivalent penance the man has to complete for what the women's been through to have children? Or her period?

Exactly the whole unwritten, man has no knowledge of rule of you owe me is not going to go down well with the man, just to let the women in the thread know in advance, expect a lot of roaring from most guys as most guys are pretty protective of their (for lack of a better word) equipment.

taconnol wrote: »

I think you're being a bit too theoretical brim4brim. All of my girlfriends take the pill because they know that leaving it to condoms is like playing with fire - in reality, women don't have a huge amount choice. What are the alternatives?

There aren't a lot I suppose but the woman still has the choice not to go on the pill. Its up to every couple to read up on what they think are viable options for them. There is no one size fits all solution and I'm not going to get into a debate on different types of contraception because I don't want to. Wikipedia probably has good articles on this assuming they haven't been vandalised by someone.

Macha

Wikpedia know all.. they have a comparison table of effectiveness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods#Comparison_table

Condoms only half as effective as pill? No thanks..

Interestingly male sterilisation has a higher effectiveness rate than female sterilisation..hmm..

ozchick

Thrill, I am sorry you have such insecure views of relationships. Maybe that is your experience, or people you know.

My husband volunteered to have it done after our third baby (when bub was 9 months old). His Dad was one of the first in Oz to have it done (due to family medical connections) and he and my MIL said how great it was and how much better their love life was without the worry. Took away any fear of another unplanned pregnancy (we conceived just looking at either other ) and wouldn't have changed it for anything.

I think it's a very personal decision and anyone who isn't totally committed to their relationship and partner may want to think twice. We had been married eight years when he had it done and have now been married 30! If I had to think twice cos my relationship wouldn't last, then I wouldn't have much faith in my relationship in the first place, would I?

He had a local so he didn't have the drugged and possible vomiting wake up afterwards. Not sure it was such a good idea when he heard the surgeon say to the nurse 'I'm not as good on the left side as the right' :D Few recovering issues but never looked back.

Better than unwanted children whom you can't afford to raise.

Balmed out, episiotomies ARE still carried out, often out of necessity rather than let a woman tear. She can do plenty in preparation to maybe help avoid one, but the facts are, if the baby is too big, then a cut is going to heal much better than a tear.

doonothing

taconnol wrote: »

Doesn't follow because there's nothing a man can do when a woman has her period.
However, we're talking about a situation where he does have an option, albeit an unpleasant one.

Ok, maybe not a period, but how about, if a woman's vagina tears during childbirth, should the man have to get a circumcision maybe? Where is this line drawn of what each member of a relationship "owes" each other? I think that's a horrible way to look at love, it should be more about what each person is willing to do for the other, not demand from the other...

Rogueish

It is something myself and my OH have mentioned. I've taken responsibility for the contraception for the last 6 years and will do until our family is finished. He doesn't like condoms and prefers not to use them. Which is fair enough in a monogamous relationship but I expect him to take his turn either when the male pill comes out or the snip.

We've already had an accident with condoms where one split and as a result neither one of us has faith in them as a longterm contraceptive.

But it isn't something I that would enforce. It is something that we would have to discuss and look at the options. We are talking about another 10 years or so in the future so god knows what will be about then.

The thing is that if I go off the pill and he is unwilling to use or take alternative precautions there ain't gonna be any action in the bedroom or anywhere else

coffee_cake

why do none of the women here want to be "snipped"/tied instead

is there something i am missing
i think i would prefer to do it myself instead of expecting someone else to

Macha

Doonothing: This isn't about making men suffer just for the hell of it. You might find this a bit unbelievable but I do actually love my partner and would have to be a bit sick to want to exact my 'revenge' on him. Your bizarre analogy of a vagina tearing during childbirth is as ludicrous as that of periods. Again, the difference is with contraception, when all the kids are born, the man can actually take on the responsibility of contraception. Do you understand the logic?

I think a horrible way to love would be if my partner just expected me to take hormonal treatment until I hit the menopause, then I go through more hormonal mayhem for a few more years until I'm finally free at around the age of 60. And all the time, they could just go through a simple operation.That's selfish to me.

Bluewolf, I wouldn't be against being snipped but the male sterilisation has a much higher success rate than on women. So if a couple use the logic that the pill is more effective then the same logic should be applied to sterilisation. Seems only fair to me.

Abi

bluewolf wrote: »

why do none of the women here want to be "snipped"/tied instead

is there something i am missing
i think i would prefer to do it myself instead of expecting someone else to

I can only speak from the angle of a mother. I've faced the scalpel on three occasions. One of which was hip to hip. Now, the way I see it is this: a small cut underneath his nether regions is the least he could do for me.

If a pill is forgotten, or Im ill - have a vomiting bug / the runs - guess who the onus falls on? that is correct. Me.

By no means, am I gunning for men here - but I feel its the guys way of meeting half way.

To put the shoe on the other foot, I would much rather have had a small cut down there than the ordeal I have to go through when having children. My kids births were horrific. I cannot continue with monthly scares with condoms / pills / patches etc. Its not fair on either party.

coffee_cake

Abigayle wrote: »

I can only speak from the angle of a mother. I've faced the scalpel on three occasions. One of which was hip to hip. Now, the way I see it is this: a small cut underneath his nether regions is the least he could do for me.

If a pill is forgotten, or Im ill - have a vomiting bug / the runs - guess who the onus falls on? that is correct. Me.

By no means, am I gunning for men here - but I feel its the guys way of meeting half way.

To put the shoe on the other foot, I would much rather have had a small cut down there than the ordeal I have to go through when having children. My kids births were horrific. I cannot continue with monthly scares with condoms / pills / patches etc. Its not fair on either party.

Sorry Abi but I don't really understand how this answers my question.
Since you agree the consequence falls on you, would you not want to stop this by getting tied yourself and avoid the scares that way?

taconnol wrote:

Bluewolf, I wouldn't be against being snipped but the male sterilisation has a much higher success rate than on women. So if a couple use the logic that the pill is more effective then the same logic should be applied to sterilisation. Seems only fair to me.

I have no idea of success rates so I just googled it and found 99%+ for both male and female. Certainly doesn't seem to be much of a failure rate for female... If you can link me something better I'll stand corrected?

This does sound a little like the "look what I have to go through now it's your turn" take on things, and while I'm sure in a happy relationship some compromise may be reached - if I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting pregnant again I would prefer to ensure it myself.
I don't see why one would think women are "expected" to take the hormonal treatment for an extended time and think this should be avoided by their partner having an operation when they can have one themselves?
Brings me back to my original question really...

Rogueish

The thing is that it is the difference in the severity and the recovery of the operation.

Female sterilisation involves a general anesthetic and major surgery. This is significantly magnified if there is a hysterectomy involved.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/sterilisation_women.htm

Male vasectomy is a much simpler and more straightforward procedure involving a local anesthetic and minor surgery and a seriously reduced recovery time.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/sterilisation_men.htm

That is why it is usually the men who are approached first about sterilisation!

Both methods are significantly successful but if you take into account that the female is usually the primary caregiver to the children (who are probably quite young), more than likely has a job/career, and a household/ mortgage that relies on the same. Feature in the costs of the procedure, loss of income and time off work, pain and discomfort associated with female sterilisation and compare that to minor discomfort, a local anaesthetic and max a full day off work for a male and see what tends to make more sense to a lot of couples.

Abi

bluewolf wrote: »

Since you agree the consequence falls on you, would you not want to stop this by getting tied yourself and avoid the scares that way?

The consequence falls on me because I am the one that gets pregnant. I refuse to apologise for being a woman. And, as a woman, Ive paid my dues. I think you are thinking outside of the relationship box Blue. I dont mean that to sound in any way patronizing, but why should it always be the woman that has to hop up on the hospital bed.

I get that you are very responsible what happens to your body, I admire that. But if the woman bears children for her husband, the very least he can do out of respect is to have a small procedure done. The procedure is done while the man is conscience, takes a small amount of time and great results.

On the other hand, getting the tubes done is far more complicated, and is in fact an operation. Everyone knows the procedures before you go under anasthesia for an op. You are warned that there is a risk of death, and complications.

Women face catastrophic body changes in their life time. Day in day out, we fear pregnancy, or infertility, menopause is hellish for a lot of women, I personally live in great fear of ovarian or breast cancer. Yes, these other illnesses are not on topic, but what Im getting at is - we suffer enough.

Apologies if I got a bit ranty there, but I just dont see why men should have no input in the matter, bar the squirty kind..

AckwelFoley

Moonbaby wrote: »

Yes it is only fair after years of hormonal contraception and baby producing.

:mad:

Would it be fair of a man to ask a woman to get her bits snipped?

Im keeping myself snip free.

I only konw of one man that did it, but he really had to. If his wife had another baby she could die, due to a heart defect they found in her second pregnancy.

In that case i found it oddly romantic