The Freemasons

Seaneh

A group to make contacts.

I just wanted to cross post this post I made regarding Mason's in a thread in After Hours a few months ago.

The man I spoke to, whom I've spoken to several times since, has no reason to lie, I have no reason to believe he is lying, he has shown me photos of himself and others in masonic robes and has shown me stuff like his ring and various other items. He still retains friends form his former lodges (he's moved around a bit in his life).

He actually doesn't think any of them believe a word of it, and that they all just kinda go along with it as a "thems the rules" sort of thing, because it's all absolutely bonkers.

He just couldn't pretend it wasn't a load of nonsense any more.

Seaneh wrote: »

I recently had a conversation with a former high ranking member of the Irish Freemason movement.

He is currently "agnostic on the verge of atheism but honestly just don't give a **** anymore".

When he joined he was an Anglican, he father was a vicar.

Anyway, he said for the first 15year ish it was all harmless if a bit odd at times but as he moved up the ranks it got weirder and weirder.

When you join you have to profess a belief in "a God" it doesn't matter what faith, you just have to believe in God, after that, religion isn't mentioned at meetings etc ever. However, as you go through the ranks, at a certain level the higherarchy "reveal" "secrets of the craft" to you in drips and drabs which eventually leads to them revealing that masons worship satan, they sacrifice animals, loads of other weird stuff. He said he never believed a word of it but had been a member for so long and it was such a big part of his life and social circle he just went along with it.

Eventually left because it got too weird for him when he was in his 60's.

He's in his 70's now.


Lovely man, was an interesting story.

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

From what I gather from his posts is that he is completely anti-mason and more than likely google information and read books of the ilk. His knowledge was tested and he failed the riddle that was posed therefore not a mason nor ever has been.

For myself I have a Mother and her number is pretty well known....

People can see for themselves, and the way you carry on forth on this forum shows you up. I am not here to show you up. I am here to post my views on this forum and I happen to want to discuss on this thread. I think a lot of people are not to bothered about asking you much questions. I don't at all associate you with Absolam. Abasolam doesn't retort to petty immature remarks constantly or make ridiculous comments about drinking and whatever in his posts. I don't even bother to respond to you, because there is no point really.

Captain fish

A money making group.

I am also a traveller, and my mother is in the ww / wx area, . Isn't is funny that people believe everything they read on google?

SoulandForm

A group to make contacts.

Captain fish wrote: »

I am also a traveller, and my mother is in the ww / wx area, . Isn't is funny that people believe everything they read on google?

The sexual image of the Square and Compass is very creepy and weird given how they ban women from most Lodges.

enno99

Captain fish wrote: »

I am also a traveller, and my mother is in the ww / wx area, . Isn't is funny that people believe everything they read on google?

No more amusing than people jioning up here with a superiority complex thinking they will be taken seriously

Absolam

A money making group.

enno99 wrote: »

Well a lot of high level freemasons clearly saw some merit in numerology why do you dismiss it

If the purpose of joining freemasonary is to gain enlightenment why would you not strive for the ultimate experience and embrace all the organization has to offer
If there is another door to be opened can you truly say you know all about freemasonary until you have opened it

It's more accurate to say that some Freemasons are interested in numerology, some are interested in qubalah, some are interested in esotericism. Whilst Freemasonry has room to accommodate Islam, Judaism, Christianity et al, there's room to accommodate those who are, shall we say, more immersed in the less usual aspects of faith. As I posted before, these are not aspects of Freemasonry, these are aspects of Members belliefs that they see reflected in the way they approach Freemasonry.
The purpose of joining Freemasonry is not to gain enlightenment, or if someone joins with that purpose they'll probably be very disappointed. Ditto anyone looking for 'the ultimate experience'. The purpose of Freemasonry is to make good men better.

Absolam

A money making group.

SoulandForm wrote: »

The sexual image of the Square and Compass is very creepy and weird given how they ban women from most Lodges.

I think it's really creepy how some people can see the Square and Compasses as a sexual image... It's got to take a lot of really wanting to see it that way. Says more about the weirdness of the person who sees sexuality in a couple of pieces of metal than anything else, in my opinion....

Torakx

Absolam wrote: »

It's more accurate to say that some Freemasons are interested in numerology, some are interested in qubalah, some are interested in esotericism. Whilst Freemasonry has room to accommodate Islam, Judaism, Christianity et al, there's room to accommodate those who are, shall we say, more immersed in the less usual aspects of faith. As I posted before, these are not aspects of Freemasonry, these are aspects of Members belliefs that they see reflected in the way they approach Freemasonry.
The purpose of joining Freemasonry is not to gain enlightenment, or if someone joins with that purpose they'll probably be very disappointed. Ditto anyone looking for 'the ultimate experience'. The purpose of Freemasonry is to make good men better.

I think a good point was made recently about doors being opened.
At what level does enlightnement reach its peak?
Is that the same as all the doors being opened so to speak in Freemasonry?
And finally, how does a Freemason know all the organisations agendas etc, if they have not reached the higher levels? Or is that a myth?

If its not a myth then you are a top level Freemason or must admit you may be mis-representing the order in some respects.
Or so it seems, based on those interesting points made earlier.

Absolam

A money making group.

That's assuming that Freemasonry is a path to enlightenment; but it's not.
So the level at which enlightenment reaches its peak is not a question for a Freemason, it's a question for a Buddhist, or someone who is on a path to enlightenment.
Therefore it's not the same as all doors being opened so to speak in Freemasonry; a Freemason is not on a path to enlightenment through Freemasonry, though he may be on a personal path to enlightenment which influences the way he views Freemasonry.

The idea that there are 'top levels' of Freemasonry is a myth; there are appendant orders which Freemasons may join. Many people mistake this for higher levels because the degrees have higher numbers, but this is a fallacy. To be Grand Master a Mason needs only be a 3rd Degree Master Mason; so a 3rd degree Mason could have far more 'power' (though probably more accurate to say has more work to do) than a 33rd degree Mason. That said, a 33rd degree Mason would almost certainly have a great deal of influence, not because of his degree, but because to have taken that degree would mean being a member for over 40 years (probably). In that time you can make a lot of good friends.
So no misrepresentation, just a better understanding of the basic premises involved.

Torakx

Ah I see.
So who would decide on when you gain a new degree?
And what would the difference be if any between 3rd degree and 29th for example?
It seems from what your saying that there is no difference only time spent as a Freemason(active one I presume).

ps. what are you doing up past 4 am! my excuse is im a crazy CT'er

Absolam

A money making group.

For Craft degrees (1,2,3) there is a minimum time period required between degrees (this is also the case in appendant bodies), and the brethren of the Lodge have to feel a member is ready to move on to the next degree. Some appendant bodies a Mason can apply for membership, some require the Mason to be invited. Some have a maximum number of members; so for instance the Supreme Council of 33rd Degree Ancient and Accepted Rite only has 33 33rd Degree members; a member of the Council can't take his 33rd Degree until a 33rd Degree resigns or dies.
A 29th degree Mason is someone who has chosen to join various appendant bodies. Generally someone who has plenty of time on their hands, as there is a fairly hefty time commitment involved; quite a few Masons choose to only join appendant bodies once they retire and have a lot of spare time.

And the reason I'm up is I'm not in Ireland at the moment . Nothing to do with the Freemasons, just work!

Torakx

Absolam wrote: »

For Craft degrees (1,2,3) there is a minimum time period required between degrees (this is also the case in appendant bodies), and the brethren of the Lodge have to feel a member is ready to move on to the next degree. Some appendant bodies a Mason can apply for membership, some require the Mason to be invited. Some have a maximum number of members; so for instance the Supreme Council of 33rd Degree Ancient and Accepted Rite only has 33 33rd Degree members; a member of the Council can't take his 33rd Degree until a 33rd Degree resigns or dies.
A 29th degree Mason is someone who has chosen to join various appendant bodies. Generally someone who has plenty of time on their hands, as there is a fairly hefty time commitment involved; quite a few Masons choose to only join appendant bodies once they retire and have a lot of spare time.

And the reason I'm up is I'm not in Ireland at the moment . Nothing to do with the Freemasons, just work!

Appendant?
For what purpose? If you dont mind me asking.
Im curious what would take up so much time inside a body that is not the main part of the society.
Im guessing that there arent at least 33 appendant bodies within Freemasonry.
Maybe its split up into 3rds?

Also of note is that some of these bodies depend on members beign invited to join.
How do you know there is not some pedophile ring in one of these appendant bodies to which you have not been invited?

Is it possible that an appendant body could for example be a pedophile ring and call its self some other name.While inviting any masons they choose from any degree?
As you said 1-3 degrees are the important ones.Maybe anyone within that range could be invited?

Im just posing an idea.And hope you can pull it down easy enough with an explanation.
Also I was just curious whee yu were postign from
I didnt think you were in Irleand, up the wicklow mountains sacrificing goats between posts


The overall theory im getting at is, maybe the Freemasons is like a foundation or platform for other goups to use.A conduit maybe, for running these various "orders" and recruiting from a stable filtered base population.

That seems like a logical system for a secret(oops secretive lol) society to become powerfull in many aspects of life.

robroy1234

The Appendant bodies mean that it is not required to be a member of them, so they are entirely optional, very much like the Shriners in the US.
As for it being a pedophile ring - that is quite an accusation you are making there. Considering that I am a member of some of these appendant bodies I do not like it one bit of being called a pedophile - so I suggest Torakx you apologise on that part.

As for being a powerful organisation here in Ireland - I don't think that any organisation that is not a political entity but has tremendous political clout and power is the GAA.

enno99

robroy1234 wrote: »

The Appendant bodies mean that it is not required to be a member of them, so they are entirely optional, very much like the Shriners in the US.
As for it being a pedophile ring - that is quite an accusation you are making there. Considering that I am a member of some of these appendant bodies I do not like it one bit of being called a pedophile - so I suggest Torakx you apologise on that part.

As for being a powerful organisation here in Ireland - I don't think that any organisation that is not a political entity but has tremendous political clout and power is the GAA.

He never said you were a pedophile and as you are not a member of all these appendant bodies you cant tell what goes on there can you

Why do keep thinking this is personal and all about you ?

Torakx

robroy1234 wrote: »

The Appendant bodies mean that it is not required to be a member of them, so they are entirely optional, very much like the Shriners in the US.
As for it being a pedophile ring - that is quite an accusation you are making there. Considering that I am a member of some of these appendant bodies I do not like it one bit of being called a pedophile - so I suggest Torakx you apologise on that part.

As for being a powerful organisation here in Ireland - I don't think that any organisation that is not a political entity but has tremendous political clout and power is the GAA.

I think you covered the GAA quite well already.Maybe you should make a thread here on these forums to discuss the CT.

I mentioned pedophile rings because I know of Freemasons who were kicked out after gettign caught biening involved in them and I was using thatscenario as an example that is following along the lines of the CT I posed earlier on iin this thread.
I didnt even mention Irish Freemasons or yourself or anyone else.
I was asking is it possible and for good reasoning why it is certainly not, so I can eliminate that frm my thoughts.

Besides I was talking to Absolam about this and certainly cant see how you were implicated.Or do you have anything to add in those regards?
You may remember this is a conspiracy theory forums.
A place where I go to research both facts and theories and the unbelievable.
I simply am posing a scenario.The fact you jumped at me over the idea, makes me want to question it fully now.
These apendant bodies may be the answer I was searching for to get closer to finding if all this stuff is applicable or not to Freemasons.

robroy1234

Torakx wrote: »

I think you covered the GAA quite well already.Maybe you should make a thread here on these forums to discuss the CT.

I mentioned pedophile rings because I know of Freemasons who were kicked out after gettign caught biening involved in them and I was using thatscenario as an example that is following along the lines of the CT I posed earlier on iin this thread.
I didnt even mention Irish Freemasons or yourself or anyone else.
I was asking is it possible and for good reasoning why it is certainly not, so I can eliminate that frm my thoughts.

Besides I was talking to Absolam about this and certainly cant see how you were implicated.Or do you have anything to add in those regards?
You may remember this is a conspiracy theory forums.
A place where I go to research both facts and theories and the unbelievable.
I simply am posing a scenario.The fact you jumped at me over the idea, makes me want to question it fully now.
These apendant bodies may be the answer I was searching for to get closer to finding if all this stuff is applicable or not to Freemasons.

there is nothing to question. pedophile is abhorent and disgusting. as for my own level in appendant degrees there is nothing untowards that goes on. the only downside is time, and expense going to meetings.

Torakx

The questions posed still stand.
Im afraid I may be like a Dog after a bone on this one until I am satisfied that the scenario I posed is impossible.
Unless you are a member of all the apendant bodies how would you know what they are all about?
My questioning the structure and running of your society should be a good thing, for surely you have done this to the fullest extent before becoming a member!
I am simply seeking clarification on the many things I do not understand about Freemasons and also trying to eliminate the idea posed earlier aswell.
This isnt about me trying to pin something on someone or some group.
I genuinely spend years lookiga t a topic before coming to any solid decisions.I do not trust my judgement and have often changed my stance over the years.
This line of questioning is part of my process.
If it is too hard to read, you could always not open this CT thread and stick to the real world facts on other forums.

robroy1234

Torakx wrote: »

The questions posed still stand.
Im afraid I may be like a Dog after a bone on this one until I am satisfied that the scenario I posed is impossible.
Unless you are a member of all the apendant bodies how would you know what they are all about?
My questioning the structure and running of your society should be a good thing, for surely you have done this to the fullest extent before becoming a member!
I am simply seeking clarification on the many things I do not understand about Freemasons and also trying to eliminate the idea posed earlier aswell.
This isnt about me trying to pin something on someone or some group.
I genuinely spend years lookiga t a topic before coming to any solid decisions.I do not trust my judgement and have often changed my stance over the years.
This line of questioning is part of my process.
If it is too hard to read, you could always not open this CT thread and stick to the real world facts on other forums.

i am in the appendant to the level that i have the time and finances to be at. freemasonry is voluntary but does include dues, and cost of travel, meals etc., the appendant degrees only complement the three degrees of the craft and does not infer superiority over the craft or greater enlightenment.

Absolam

A money making group.

I'll break this up to try and be as clear as possible:

Torakx wrote: »

Appendant?
For what purpose? If you dont mind me asking.

Appendant as in additional to the main body of Freemasony. Not for a purpose, just that Freemasonry as such consists of Craft Masonry, and accepted additions are considered appendant.

Torakx wrote: »

Im curious what would take up so much time inside a body that is not the main part of the society.

Well, a Freemason attends his Craft Lodge; that's a minimum of one meeting a month. Each appendant body can also be one meeting a month. Many Freemasons are members of more than one Craft Lodge, and often visit other Lodges. So very quickly you can find yourself attending ten meetings or more per month; it's not the appendant body that (neccasarily) takes up so much time, it's the cumulative amount.

Torakx wrote: »

Im guessing that there arent at least 33 appendant bodies within Freemasonry.
Maybe its split up into 3rds?

There are five appendant bodies in (Irish) Freemasonry;
Chapter of Prince Masons
Royal Arch Chapter
Council of the 33rd Degree Ancient & Accepted Rite.
Council of Knight Masons
Preceptory of Knights Templar
You could think of each as a Lodge, answerable to a governing body, like a Grand Lodge. Each one confers different numbers of degrees.

Torakx wrote: »

Also of note is that some of these bodies depend on members beign invited to join. How do you know there is not some pedophile ring in one of these appendant bodies to which you have not been invited? Is it possible that an appendant body could for example be a pedophile ring and call its self some other name.While inviting any masons they choose from any degree?
As you said 1-3 degrees are the important ones.Maybe anyone within that range could be invited?

As you see above, it's not possibe to just invent an appendant body and crew it with the people you want; the bodies exist and new ones don't just get added.
Of course it's possible that a Chapter or Council or Preceptory is entirely filled by members of a paedophile ring; just very improbable. More improbable than, say, your next door neighbours house, or (as Robroy might say) your local GAA club. There are a couple of reasons why the probability is so small:
1) Each Lodge/Council/Chapter/Preceptory is subject to oversight from its' Grand governing body. That means representatives visiting and checking ritual, procedures, minutes, accounts, activities etc which would mean a great deal of work to appear to be behaving like all the other Lodges/Councils/Chapters/Preceptories.
2) All of the above are frequently visited without warning by members from other Lodges/Councils/Chapters/Preceptories, who have no connection at all other than membership, and would tend to throw a spanner in the works if they noticed something untoward going on.
3) Most importantly; each appendant order draws its' members either directly from Craft Lodges or from other appendant orders. So it's a closed pool. The initial membership has already been vetted as being likely to be 'good men capable of being made better', and professes a belief in a supreme being. So broadly speaking, likely to be anti-paedophiles in the first place. If somehow, a paedophile gets into an appendant body, the only people he can recruit are not likely to be sympathetic; he'd have to be very careful who he discusses even the idea of paedophilia with. Since it's not an anonymous, or even public, area, he only needs to sound out one unsympathetic person for the whole plot to collapse and trap him; he's given the organisation his name, address, phone number, email, members have probably met his wife and family.

So, why would a paedophile limit the potential members for their paedophile ring in the first place, whilst at the same time abandoning anonymity and ensuring that everyone he asks to join the ring has access to his name and address, as well as a list of his known associates?
Much safer to just walk up to random strangers in a public place and ask them to join his paedophile ring, at least that way he can run away!

Torakx wrote: »

The overall theory im getting at is, maybe the Freemasons is like a foundation or platform for other goups to use.A conduit maybe, for running these various "orders" and recruiting from a stable filtered base population.

Logically, the group would have to have existed either before or during the founding of Freemasonry, in order to insert itself into the structure. Then, the membership would have to include the kind of people the group wants in the group. Difficult to build a nefarious group when you've restricted your recruitment pool to men generally inclined towards goodwill.

Torakx wrote: »

That seems like a logical system for a secret(oops secretive lol) society to become powerfull in many aspects of life.

That's a bit of a misconstruction; Freemasonry isn't powerful in many aspects of life. How then can a secret group within be powerful in many aspects of life, especially without coming to the attention of the host organisation?

enno99

Many Freemasons are members of more than one Craft Lodge

But robroy said different the reason he gave for Enda kenny not being a mason is he would have met him at his lodge in mayo ?

Absolam

A money making group.

No, he didn't say different. What he said was that Enda Kenny wasn't a member of the Masonic Lodge in Mayo.

enno99

Absolam wrote: »

No, he didn't say different. What he said was that Enda Kenny wasn't a member of the Masonic Lodge in Mayo.

yes and when if asked if he could be a member of another lodge he said no that was the only lodge he could join
meaning if he was not a member of the mayo lodge he was not a feemason
I need to go back and look again

enno99

Ok here is his statement


You can only join at your local lodge - so for Enda Kenny that would be here in Mayo and not Dublin or elsewhere. There are certain dispensations towards particular cases such as work commitments and university/college studies, but in regards to people like Enda Kenny his normal place of residence is Mayo therefore he has to be a member of the local lodge in order to be a Freemason

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79171774&postcount=712

Absolam

A money making group.

Joining is not the same as being. A candidate has to join a Lodge where he resides, which is called his 'Mother Lodge'. A Master Mason can affiliate to other Lodges as well if he chooses, but his Mother Lodge remains. If someone, like Enda Kenny, lives in one place but has substantial work commitmements in another location, they might be allowed to join a Lodge in that location, by dispensation from the residential jurisdiction. So if Enda Kenny joined a Lodge, it would have to be either the one in Mayo, or approved by the one in Mayo. Either way, as a member of the Mayo Lodge, RobRoy would know about it.

enno99

Ok kinda grasping what you are saying there

So if I lived in cork for most of my life then moved to dublin after a few years I wanted to join the freemasons I would need a reference from the lodge in cork

would this also be the case if I had moved to England or elsewhere

Absolam

A money making group.

No if you were resident in Dublin permission from Cork would not be needed, as long as the scrutineers were satisfied that you were resident for sufficiently long, and intended to stay. They might still seek permission though, as a matter of courtesy. England operates under the Grand Lodge of England, which is separate to the Grand Lodge of Ireland; they would still satisfy themselves that you were resident for sufficiently long, and intended to stay, but would not so much seek permission from your home jurisdiction,as courteously extend notification of their intent to initiate you, understanding that certain replies from your home jurisdiction might coincide with them changing their mind about your initiation.

enno99

So what is the sufficient length of time you would need to be a resident
could you join while in university in Dublin stating that when you leave you will be taking up residence in Dublin

Absolam

A money making group.

I don't have a copy of the rules to hand, so I can't say if there's a specified time period, but personally I would want someone to have been resident for at least a year before considering them. So potentially, a second year student maybe, bearing in mind the minimum age requirement is 21, with a lower age limit for the sons of members (not something I've ever dealt with so I don't know the age limit for that).

enno99

Absolam wrote: »

I don't have a copy of the rules to hand, so I can't say if there's a specified time period, but personally I would want someone to have been resident for at least a year before considering them. So potentially, a second year student maybe, bearing in mind the minimum age requirement is 21, with a lower age limit for the sons of members (not something I've ever dealt with so I don't know the age limit for that).

would this require any form of dispensation from your local lodge

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

enno99 wrote: »

So what is the sufficient length of time you would need to be a resident
could you join while in university in Dublin stating that when you leave you will be taking up residence in Dublin

Just as long as you believe in "supreme beings" you're all part of the club.:D
I nearly tried to take a bottle of water onto the plane one time, but I realise that would be a criminal offence. I don't think I would be a good candidate to join. Not saying I would, but there you go!