The Freemasons

Absolam

A money making group.

Perhaps you can explain what leads you to believe Freemasonry in Ireland is important on a spiritual level in the world of Freemasonry? Speaking as a Freemason the entire concept is frankly bizarre.

I don't know what 'power' you think Freemasonry exercises in either Ireland or the UK, but since neither organisation involves itself in politics or religion, I assume you're talking about the power of charity. Freemasonry in the UK has a large membership, making it the second largest charitable giver outside the National Lottery, but I don't really think that's an exercise of 'power'.

The idea that a lot of the American Revolution was planned out by Freemasons is a bit silly, even though there were famously Freemasons involved (on both sides). The idea that a lot of it was planned by Freemasons in Dublin really exceeds the bounds of credulity.... So perfect CT stuff. I'd love to know what you're basing your assertion on.

getz

The puppet masters.

a lot of the money raised from charity by the masons goes to their own charity, they have even raised enough money to build their own masonic cemetery in england and planted it with yew trees hence the police name for operation saville [yew tree]

robroy1234

Getz - I would suggest for you to use sources that are far more reliable - Tony Gosling is a dubious fella at least and always concocting weird conspiracy theories - one with a deranged woman with mental illness who believed that Mossad and the Libyans were after her. I don't much about it as it does border on the nutty side of things and that is the domain of all conspiracy theorists.

Absolam - I wouldn't mind having some power and influence - then at least I would be able to enforce what I really want - my mortgage cleared and daytime TV cleared off that useless stuff such as Jeremy Kyle and cooking shows.

You all have to agree that Jeremy Kyle is terrible - for me its the overweight, tattooed idiots with bad teeth that do my head in....

robroy1234

Ah Getz - you have a sense of humour - for a CTer that's a rarity. I still don't see a link between myself and my Irish Brethren and Savile - you are constantly making references to such. Maybe you can enlighten us all...

getz

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Ah Getz - you have a sense of humour - for a CTer that's a rarity. I still don't see a link between myself and my Irish Brethren and Savile - you are constantly making references to such. Maybe you can enlighten us all...

sense of humour? you meen old masons never die,but you,ll have to join to find out.

Absolam

A money making group.

getz wrote: »

a lot of the money raised from charity by the masons goes to their own charity, they have even raised enough money to build their own masonic cemetery in england and planted it with yew trees hence the police name for operation saville [yew tree]

In the first part; ALL the money raised by Freemasons for Masonic Charities goes to Masonic Charities; registered, with boards of directors, and inspectable like any other registered charities. ALL of of the money raised for non-Masonic charities goes to those non-Masonic charities, who provide receipts to the Lodges so all the members who wish to review the accounts can see for themselves that the money is where it ought to be.

As for the second part, the naming of operation Yewtree, as a CTer I'm sure you know full well the process for the naming of such operations, and it has nothing to do with Masonic cemeteries.

robroy1234

Yep - old masons never die, they just sit there in meetings either falling asleep or talking loudly how meetings years ago were much better....

robroy1234

However I intend to live forever - and if that is not possible then I would prefer to pass away at the age of 119, shot by a jealous husband of a beautiful model....

getz

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Yep - old masons never die, they just sit there in meetings either falling asleep or talking loudly how meetings years ago were much better....

and there was me thinking it was all about bonking chickens and rolling up trouser legs

robroy1234

No chickens or any other animal/livestock allowed in the lodge, no bonking either (I leave that til I get home and chase the wife around the house), and haven't rolled up the trouser leg for many years. You have been watching Monty Python, which is a good thing.

getz

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

No chickens or any other animal/livestock allowed in the lodge, no bonking either (I leave that til I get home and chase the wife around the house), and haven't rolled up the trouser leg for many years. You have been watching Monty Python, which is a good thing.

that proves my point,gandhi

you can tell how civilized people are by the way they treat their animals,

Absolam

A money making group.

Sorry, what was your point? People would be more civilised if they bonked chickens? That's pretty out there, even for this forum! :eek:

enno99

Absolam wrote: »

That's two very loaded questions there.

Firstly, it might help to be more specific about what you mean by 'all aspects of Freemasonry'. For instance, it could take many years for a Mason to be fully aware of all the financial aspects of just his own Lodge; some Lodges have been operating continually for hundreds of years, and have entire rooms full of financial records; that's a lot of Treasurers' reports to go through and understand. Some Lodge historians spend decades researching the history of just their own Lodge; researching every aspect of the history of the Order could be the work of a lifetime, maybe more. Knowing everything that can be known about every aspect of Freemasonry would seem a daunting task. However, to forestall the obvious rebuttal, just because a Master Mason in Cork doesn't know the ins and outs of the finances of the Grand Lodge of Virginia, it doesn't follow that an organisation can exist within the organisation without the knowledge of the membership; all Lodges are required to submit membership lists, minutes, finances and capitation to their Grand Lodge, and appendant bodies do the same to their governing bodies. Any body existing within the Order shows up even it's just the minutiae of insurance costs and paper use.

Secondly, most Lodges would not provide someone to guide members in the esoteric aspects of the Craft. Primarily because Esoterica is a very subjective subject which is driven more by an individuals interest in the subject generally, than any content in Freemasonry. Some 'esoteric' Masons will find aspects of Freemasonry which illuminate their understanding of the Rapture, other 'esoteric' Masons will find the same aspects deepen their understanding of Wicca, or reveal the depths of Qubalah. It's more the perspective than the content. For instance, the author you linked has also written an essay on the esoteric Masonic aspects of the game of Chess. It doesn't mean Freemasons invented, or influenced, Chess, it just means he's really into seeing Masonic esoterica in things. By the way Pietra Stones is a fantastic website. There's lots of brilliant content there, but don't mistake it for a definitive guide to the content of Freemasonry; it's more of a paper review journal for Masonic scholars (whether they're Masons or not), and there are plenty of conflicting opinions and ideas on there, none of which represent an 'official' stance of Freemasonry. Still well worth a read though.

Jesus thats hard on the eyes

Im asking about the esoteric side and all the true meaning of symbolism

I read an article about a 24inch rule /measure where it meant a lot of different things it went on about how it formed a triangle related to number 6 and into the tarot cards and so on

I guess what im saying is that the symbols and rituals and the understanding that low level freemasons ( not trying to belittle anyone ) have of them would mean completely different things to those with the more hidden (esoteric ) knowledge

Does your lodge have someone versed in this knowledge who could guide you ?

robroy1234

Enno - that would be me for the lodges here in the West. I do all the working tools for degrees and include the working tools that are no longer mentioned within the degrees, and I also include some of the symbols that are also no longer in use. The 24 inch gauge represents time, that is due to the main divisions and how long it would take for an operative stone mason to measure and shape the stone that he is working on. The divided number is not six but it is eight. Three sets of eight equal twenty-four and the division represents time spent in your vocation, time in rest and recreation and time devoted to your respective Supreme Being. As far as I am aware there is no link to the Tarot Cards.

Getz - I get your point with how we treat animals - I mean we have lost the ability to distinguish between Horse meat and Beef.

enno99

robroy1234 wrote: »

Enno - that would be me for the lodges here in the West. I do all the working tools for degrees and include the working tools that are no longer mentioned within the degrees, and I also include some of the symbols that are also no longer in use. The 24 inch gauge represents time, that is due to the main divisions and how long it would take for an operative stone mason to measure and shape the stone that he is working on. The divided number is not six but it is eight. Three sets of eight equal twenty-four and the division represents time spent in your vocation, time in rest and recreation and time devoted to your respective Supreme Being. As far as I am aware there is no link to the Tarot Cards.

Getz - I get your point with how we treat animals - I mean we have lost the ability to distinguish between Horse meat and Beef.

Yes the piece I read also mentioned 8hrs to work 8hrs to do good deeds and 8hrs to relax/sleep


i will try find it and post

So do you practice the esoteric side of freemasonary ? or fully understand it

robroy1234

There is no esoteric side of Freemasonry. What happens is that different Masons focus on different areas of Masonry. Some prefer to concentrate on the rituals and wordings, others the administration, some on the history, and with the various parts of to degrees some of us are versed in the working tools and the rituals whilst some on other parts. There is nothing that can surmised from all of this as everything "should" be done from memory without any recourse to any books or written material, this means that various brothers concentrate on particular areas.

It is funny to think that people believe that we have some sort of magical/ esoteric rituals and powers. One fella a few months ago, whom didn't know that I am Freemason, stated quite categorically that Freemasons in meetings form a circle and chant the numbers of the lottery. I of course couldn't stop but giggle at such an assertion, but he actually, really believed it to be the case.

enno99

here is the article I was talking about

The 24" Gauge: An Emblem of Balance and Harmonization

In considering the gauge numerologically, it can very simply offer the value of 6 when we sum the digits of its length – 24 = 2+4 = 6.) Let us endeavor to lay bare any occulted correspondences to the gauge’s value of 6; we will seek after them in the Torah, in the Qabalah and finally in the Tarot.


http://www.theblazingstart.blogspot.ie/2013/01/the-24-gauge-emblem-of-balance-and.html#more

robroy1234

The best way to understand the role of the working tools and symbols in Freemasonry is to look at how the Ancient Greeks and Romans practiced and orated their public speaking. The techniques they used included imagining walking into a room or a house and there are certain objects, items or people and that reminds them of a certain word or phrase. They are simply just memory aids in order to help the orator remember what s/he is talking about. In regards to Freemasonry the working tools and symbols act in the same way.

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Aquarius - you are a miserable sod and little wonder that you hate other people who do whatever they want to enjoy life. That is mainly the reason you are on this forum - because everyone avoids and ignores you in your ranting and raving and this is the only outlet to vent your paranoia. Cheer up and start enjoying life, relax, have a drink, and meet a decent woman (if not an indecent woman - which is even better). .

Two pages ago didn't you say that others were been rude, here you are been rude yourself, isn't that a bit ironic? It seems to be your biggest downfall here. You behave like someone who is in complete self denial about life and everything around you. You know what they say about people who point fingers? They have to point at someone else because they cannot face up to what they themselves put out.

robroy1234

Aquarius - you are the one who is rude and obnoxious - now if you please, Enno and I are having a good debate here and trust you to barge in. Now, if you can't take a hint all I can say is go and have a pint, relax and chat up a woman - you will feel far more happier.

Captain fish

A money making group.

I have spent the last two hours reading threads here. Wow! It's amazing to see the absolute horse s@it that is actually believed by some about the masonic meetings and what we are really up to. Where do you do your research?

robroy1234

Now Enno - I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the adding of the digits of the number, there is my view too much obsession over numerology and people getting caught up with codes and messages in numbers etc., Look at Harold Camping and his numerous claims of the end of the world using the numbers in the bible. Same with the Mayan Prophecies...

The real message in the symbols and working tools of Freemasonry is one of remembering of how to behave, these have passed into everyday speech that is constantly used on a regular basis by many people -such as "S/He is an upright person." S/He is level headed" "Is that all-Squared." and if you ever have to deal with teenagers and they are been questioned for some wrong-doing "Don't give me the third degree."

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

Captain fish wrote: »

I have spent the last two hours reading threads here. Wow! It's amazing to see the absolute horse s@it that is actually believed by some about the masonic meetings and what we are really up to. Where do you do your research?

first post:D

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Aquarius - you are the one who is rude and obnoxious - now if you please, Enno and I are having a good debate here and trust you to barge in. Now, if you can't take a hint all I can say is go and have a pint, relax and chat up a woman - you will feel far more happier.

I havent been rude at all. I am just curious as to why you continue to behave so spiteful. You turn most back and forth conversations into a petty immature dialogues.

robroy1234

Aquarius - the first post you ever did on this forum and since then has been full of spite, hatred, accusations and stated many times that you more about Freemasonry than Freemasons and that every Mason on the site is ignorant and stupid.

Captain fish

A money making group.

You lads should treat each other with respect! Why so much vilification?

robroy1234

Well Captain - A few weeks ago Aquarius got on to the forum and informed myself and Absolam that we are low level masons, ignorant of everything that goes on in the lodge, and that he knows more than everyone else. Since then he has been rude and obnoxious to us and is surprised and upset when responded in kind. As you can see Enno here has been respectful and his questions answered appropriately.

Captain fish

A money making group.

Fair enough! Is or has Aquarius been a member of a lodge ? Where does he get his info and greater knowledge?

robroy1234

From what I gather from his posts is that he is completely anti-mason and more than likely google information and read books of the ilk. His knowledge was tested and he failed the riddle that was posed therefore not a mason nor ever has been.

For myself I have a Mother and her number is pretty well known....

enno99

robroy1234 wrote: »

Now Enno - I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the adding of the digits of the number, there is my view too much obsession over numerology and people getting caught up with codes and messages in numbers etc., Look at Harold Camping and his numerous claims of the end of the world using the numbers in the bible. Same with the Mayan Prophecies...

The real message in the symbols and working tools of Freemasonry is one of remembering of how to behave, these have passed into everyday speech that is constantly used on a regular basis by many people -such as "S/He is an upright person." S/He is level headed" "Is that all-Squared." and if you ever have to deal with teenagers and they are been questioned for some wrong-doing "Don't give me the third degree."

Well a lot of high level freemasons clearly saw some merit in numerology why do you dismiss it

It is interesting to note that of the number six, occultist William W. Westcott relates that the ancient Greek mathematician Nicomachus wrote that it was “the fabricator of the Soul, also Harmony.” (NUMBERS – THEIR OCCULT POWER AND MYSTIC VIRTUES, page 66).

William Wynn Westcott (17 December 1848 – 30 July 1925) was a coroner, ceremonial magician, and Freemason born in Leamington, Warwickshire, England.[1] He was a Supreme Magus (chief) of the S.R.I.A and went on to co found the Golden Dawn.

In 1871 he became active in Freemasonry where he become Master of his home Lodge three years later and also the Quatuor Coronati research lodge (Master 1893-94 [2]).

In 1880 he began studying the Kabbalah

If the purpose of joining freemasonary is to gain enlightenment why would you not strive for the ultimate experience and embrace all the organization has to offer
If there is another door to be opened can you truly say you know all about freemasonary until you have opened it