The Freemasons

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

They are to Freemasonry what the Hitler Youth was to the NSDAP? Right?

Well, no. Interesting Godwin, but no.... the Hitler Youth probably had more in common with Ógra Fianna Fáil than DeMolay, but it was certainly a youth organisation so I can see where you'd try for a tenuous connection (though I can't really see why other that a fairly ham-fisted smear attempt).
Still, I'm sure you'd be quick to point out that not all members of the Hitler Youth became members of the Nazi party, as not all members of Ógra Fianna Fáil join Fianna Fail, and not all members of DeMolay became Freemasons, so it doesn't really do anything to back up the idea that Walt Disney was a Freemason.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Don't they as a rule call you and your fellow masons "DADs"?

Well, as you've no doubt read, Senior DeMolays, Masons, or other adult mentors who supervise the Chapter are usually referred to by the moniker "Dad," a term hearkening back to one of the first members, who thought of founder Frank Land as the father he never knew and called him "Dad Land". In recent years, women have also served as "advisors" for the group and are referred to as "Mom".
Again, I can see how a selectively partial rendition of that might help you try to draw a closer tie between DeMolay and Freemasonry (and even, maybe, try to subtly give the impression of improprietous closeness between adults and children in the order? Hmm..), but it doesn't really do anything to assist the contention that Walt Disney was a Freemason?

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Well, no. Interesting Godwin, but no.... the Hitler Youth probably had more in common with Ógra Fianna Fáil than DeMolay, but it was certainly a youth organisation so I can see where you'd try for a tenuous connection (though I can't really see why other that a fairly ham-fisted smear attempt).
Still, I'm sure you'd be quick to point out that not all members of the Hitler Youth became members of the Nazi party, as not all members of Ógra Fianna Fáil join Fianna Fail, and not all members of DeMolay became Freemasons, so it doesn't really do anything to back up the idea that Walt Disney was a Freemason.
Well, as you've no doubt read, Senior DeMolays, Masons, or other adult mentors who supervise the Chapter are usually referred to by the moniker "Dad," a term hearkening back to one of the first members, who thought of founder Frank Land as the father he never knew and called him "Dad Land". In recent years, women have also served as "advisors" for the group and are referred to as "Mom".
Again, I can see how a selectively partial rendition of that might help you draw a closer tie between DeMolay and Freemasonry (though I don't know why you'd bother; there are much closer ties than that!), but it doesn't really do anything to assist the contention that Walt Disney was a Freemason?

I apologise for any offense caused with the Hitler stuff, just couldn't think of a better example of a youth group that exists as a precursor to the real deal.

You are correct I think that Disney wasn't a fully-fledged Mason, for the reasons you've given though I do wish you wouldn't obfuscate so.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You are correct I think that Disney wasn't a fully-fledged Mason, for the reasons you've given though I do wish you wouldn't obfuscate so.

Really? Which part of the below do you think was confusing, willfully ambiguous, hard to interpret, bewildering, or stupefying?

Absolam wrote: »

Even the idea that Disney was a Freemason is restricted to the less factually oriented internet sites; he never claimed to be a Mason, no one close to him said he was a Mason, there's no actual evidence of him being a Mason, and tellingly, he doesn't appear on any of the lists of famous Freemasons that American Freemasonry so proudly produces. If Arnold, Berlusconi, & Hoover can appear on the lists, I doubt anyone is trying to hide Disney.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Really? Which part of the below do you think was confusing, willfully ambiguous, hard to interpret, bewildering, or stupefying?

I said obfuscate. You are speaking with authority here as a mason, with a knowledge greater than any of us non-masons. The idea that Disney was a freemason was raised, which you rejected, which is fine but the whole truth is that while No, it seems highly unlikely he was a freemason proper he was a member of the De Molays, who are part of the Freemasonic family.

I just wish that if you know these things you would inform us.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I said obfuscate.

You did.
obfuscate 1.to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
wiki: Obfuscation is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, willfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You are speaking with authority here as a mason, with a knowledge greater than any of us non-masons. The idea that Disney was a freemason was raised, which you rejected, which is fine but the whole truth is that while No, it seems highly unlikely he was a freemason proper he was a member of the De Molays, who are part of the Freemasonic family.

No, the whole truth is there is no substantial evidence to suggest he was a Freemason. Not even an improper Freemason, or a partly fledged Freemason (members of DeMoley are neither), though introducing such terms is obfuscation in my opinion. DeMolay International is an organisation associated with Freemasonry, it's members are not Freemasons, it is not a part of Freemasonry, it is not a Masonic organisation. The idea of it being 'part of the Freemasonic family' is a nebulous one at best; it certainly doesn't tie Walt Disney in any substantive way to Freemasonry, any more than being a member of Rainbow would make a woman a Freemason (and Rainbow are far more 'masonic' than DeMolay).

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I just wish that if you know these things you would inform us.

I think I've been quite clear about what I understand with regard to Walt Disneys association with Freemasonry. I very much doubt delving into his membership of DeMolay goes any way towards explaining how the imagery on TV3s Toy Show is unlikely to be the result of Masonic influence, so you may understand why I didn't think it was a subject worth introducing; if anything it is, as you say, obfuscation.

AnonymousBosch

AnonymousBosch wrote: »

Anyone know?
They seemed to have a few lodges going near and far, then their main website seemed to be going under reconstruction, then they just had a facebook page, and then not long ago - poof! They were gone! Only sign of them online now is a couple of newspaper items from a couple years back, and Pillars of Dublin No. 8 Lodge.

Now there's fertile ground for conspiracy mongering...

Well, well, well... there was a split: between the Grand Masonic Orient and three members styling themselves the Grand Orient, from Lodge Tricolour No. 1, from which they were expelled by the GMOIrl for "serious un-masonic conduct". A bunch of other sub lodges voted to stay in the GMOIrl.

The Pillars of Dublin No. 8 site has now become defunct, as the gmoirl site before it.

All I can find now remotely similar is "Lodge Phoenix": no stated connection with previous orient(s).

I'm kind of disappointed.

Not2Good

I see Wonderpedia have an article on the free masons this month, I quickly glanced through it but seems to offer anything new, Havent read it in detail yet..

patrick cuttle

I believe gods banker who was found hanging from black friars bridge had unhappy connections with the freemasons, the Catholic church, and the mafia. So all three have connections in that all three had a motive to murder the man

Absolam

A money making group.

I remember that story....

lohal

A money making group.

patrick cuttle wrote: »

I believe gods banker.......

Why do you believe this, did he tell you?

enno99

Absolam wrote: »

2) Evidence that a Detective Chief Inspector Phil Cuthbert existed, and was jailed as a result of Operation Countryman. That would be a good follow up. .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcr6Ol7pKUU

@0.50

Absolam

A money making group.

Had Nick Davies offered the tv show as evidence (and it must be noted, he didn't), I think it would be fair to say another journalist telling the same (part of a) story isn't evidence the story is true, only that they agree. The source that the journalist used... Now that might be evidence.
But he didn't bother with either......

Well done for sticking at it for ten months though.

enno99

[QUOTE=Absolam;95179965

Well done for sticking at it for ten months though.[/QUOTE]

LOL hardly

It was one of these I saw this and thought if you moments

Have a nice day

pueblo

Anyone read much about the Monarch programming/ MK Ultra etc and link to freemasons?

Also anyone know anything about the shriners? I had a relation who was one and I'm interested in it's links with freemasonry.

Overheal

There's a shriners hospital in Greenville, SC that functions basically like St. Judes, it's a childrens hospital where families are never charged a cent of their expenses. Is that what youre referring to?

http://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org/Locations/greenville

Absolam

A money making group.

For some reason I can't hyperlink on my iPad today, but there's a bit of discussion of the Shriners from about post 796 on this thread; if you have a read and have any questions I'll try to answer them; I'm not a Shriner but I know some.

pueblo

Overheal wrote: »

There's a shriners hospital in Greenville, SC that functions basically like St. Judes, it's a childrens hospital where families are never charged a cent of their expenses. Is that what youre referring to?

http://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org/Locations/greenville

Well yes it's the same group, I know very little about them except that they are sort of an 'advanced freemasonry' type organisation.

pueblo

Absolam wrote: »

For some reason I can't hyperlink on my iPad today, but there's a bit of discussion of the Shriners from about post 796 on this thread; if you have a read and have any questions I'll try to answer them; I'm not a Shriner but I know some.

Will check that out thanks

Torakx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMAvlos9reU

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Kybalion

Some hermetic philosophy.
I'm half way through as I post this. It reminds me of the kind of thinking I came across when reading about freemasons and their apparent history.
How does this stand up to masons philosophies?
The wiki for this book seems to hint that it may have been written or published by freemasons.
I wasn't searching for masonic material, but I stumbled across this and thought I'd share.

I would point out the mention of "the all", a description for the universe and everything in it or something like that.
There is mention of a divine paradox between absolute and relative reality.
The universe is mental, held in the mind of the all.
Therefore there are divine absolutes dreamed by the all, our universe and it's laws are both real and not real (divine paradox).
In the absolute sense it is just vibrations(a dream of the all), in a relative sense to the human mind it is real and substantial.

This seems like a great way to allow a mind to accept a higher power, while still maintaining a belief in the relative universe as we experience and interact with it.
Like most philosophies, it is also capable of allowing a student to side step morals and ethics, in this case still living gracefully in the mind of the all(a higher power).

I haven't really thought about this, but it's kind of fun to consider, so there you go
Make of it what you will. i'd like to hear others thoughts on this and of course, if anyone feels like doing some research on the authors, it might prove just as interesting as the philosophy itself.

Absolam

A money making group.

There have certainly been Freemasons who were fans of hermeticism, but I'm not really sure what you mean by how does it stand up to masons philosophies?

Torakx

I suppose you have a good point there.
It's not like freemasons would want an underlying philosophy exposed i think. That is kind of the appeal in some respects I would imagine.

I am mostly curious how much of the hermetic philosophy syncs with the framework of the masonic order. And which parts might not fit at all.
There must be some ideologies existing within the freemasons. For example the need to believe in a higher power. In the hermetic philosophy represented by the "All".
While I wouldn't expect a freemason to share them, I will still ask lol
And maybe someone else here will have some research or thoughts to add to the chaos.
Not really looking for truths. A lot of this personal "research" I do is more for building a foundation for later ventures. Fictional writing, art, philosophy etc.
I may attempt a fantasy fiction novel at some later stage and incorporate many different philosophies, secret societies and so on to add mystery, but also a familiar connection to reality for the readers immersion.

Absolam

A money making group.

Torakx wrote: »

I suppose you have a good point there.
It's not like freemasons would want an underlying philosophy exposed i think. That is kind of the appeal in some respects I would imagine.

No, I think you misunderstand; I'm not suggesting that Freemasons wouldn't want an underlying philosophy exposed. Plenty of Freemasons write papers on their philosophic understanding of Freemasonry all the time, there is quite a lot of work by Freemasons to choose from in the field.
It's the notion that a book on hermeticism should stand up to Freemasons philosophies that I'm wondering about; in what way do you think it's particularly relevant to Freemasons rather than people in general?
For instance, it's not likely to be very palatable to a right wing Christian Freemason, just as it wouldn't be palatable to a right wing Christian non Freemason.
It would probably be of at least passing interest to an occultist Freemason, just as it would to an occultist non Freemason.

Torakx wrote: »

I am mostly curious how much of the hermetic philosophy syncs with the framework of the masonic order. And which parts might not fit at all.

For hermeticists, it fits admirably, just as for Kabbalists, there are fits to be found (or made). Freemasonry makes it quite easy for people to graft their own religious/philosophical perspectives on to suit themselves, which is wny so many Freemasons over the centuries have found it to be a way of expressing their own personal notions in their search for 'truth', or 'enlightenment' or whatever their personal philosophical quest might be.

Torakx wrote: »

There must be some ideologies existing within the freemasons. For example the need to believe in a higher power. In the hermetic philosophy represented by the "All".

The requirement of belief in a higher power isn't an ideology though; kind of the point of Freemasonry is that it is a system of morality compatible with varying ideologies. So there are in fact probably as many ideologies existing within the Freemasons as there are Freemasons.

Torakx wrote: »

While I wouldn't expect a freemason to share them, I will still ask lol And maybe someone else here will have some research or thoughts to add to the chaos.

There are plenty of famous Freemasons (Albert Pike for example) who have shared their ideologies pretty extensively, others are perhaps a little more difficult to find but a quick internet search of published Masonic research papers will throw up heaps of (often contradictory) ideological propositions.

HamsterFace

I saw a Masonic lodge in Havana last week, was kept in pretty good nick too.
In case anyone is interested...