The Freemasons

Aquarius34

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robroy1234 wrote: »

King Mob - in terms of a higher power, that cannot be destroyed nor created, and that is omnipresent, that could range from an all-seeing God, Allah, Jehovah, a divine being, one God to rule over other lesser gods, or energy. However assigning intelligence to a higher power or to another being is beyond our capabilities. It reminds me of people that portray animals having human traits despite these animals following a set pattern of behaviour. Considering that a higher power - Supreme Being would be far more intelligent than ourselves.

However the requirement for entry into Freemasonry is a belief in a Supreme Being, regardless of what the Supreme Being is. There is no requirement to justify one's belief, or to assign any characteristic or intelligence to that Supreme Being.

What a pile of bullsh*t.

Freemasons worship "a" being. The term worship does not entitled itself to worshiping to something omnipresent Jehovah is a being, he is not "God", he is not omnipresent, he's just a created being like anyone else is. Again that is what freemasons worship whether they know it or not. Freemasonry was founded by Jehovah. He is the same guy who founded religion also.

When you put your faith, belief or worship to a "supreme" being outside of yourself, you can be sure you are been conned into giving your power to something outside of yourself. When you give your power to something outside of yourself you are not recognising the creator within or acknowledging the creator you are within.

We can argue this to the moon and back, the Freemasons can keep spinning on this issue, but this is the reality here and this is the deception at work. This is exactly why this planet is so goddamn corrupt. This is exactly why this society is backwards, corrupt and segregated.

We will have to face the truth sooner or later.

Torakx

Aww... stole my Rook! hehe.

Yeah I do agree, that most importantly over anything else,what has made me a better man after half my life spent in a religion/cult being naive and deluded about myself, was realising that I did not need to supplicate to a higher power outside of myself, for my problems, wishes, dreams or solutions or morals.

As soon as I became fully independant I started to heal in many ways.
What I had been hinting at, over a series of posts, was the idea (as Aquarius stated) that the Gods we worship take a certain amount of our willpower, intellect,motivation...so many things really.

And when I found the God in me, it was me who gained these things, not an external force like my old religion, who would direct me on my life and morals.
Which crumbled when I left.
Its was a fallacy of a shell that surrounded me.I left, it all fell apart dramatically.
But after the chaos, I did find myself and I now have that power.
Chose my own morals, rebuilt my faith(in myself this time) etc.
And started to search for the real world I hadnt seen before.
And the real people!

My CT regarding the Freemasons rules, and my focus on the supreme being, is that without this shell on every(or most) members,due to the requirement of externalizing your "soul" for want of a better word,a certain amount of control and supplication to the organisation is assured.
A certain amount of ignorance is likely.

I believe, as I think Aquarius does, that this mechanic in the human mind is what religion was used for since ancient times, as a means to control large groups of people or prevent them from becoming fully independant.

Of course some may do fine under this umbrella.
But I still feel they just appear to be doing fine.Or maybe they dont really take the religious side seriously at all and just lied to get into the Freemasons and/or lied on their oath.

The new fallacy up and coming strong is our new masters the aliens/annunaki what ever.
A powerfull outsde force/beings that will come and solve all our problems.
Sounds familiar eh?
I call it religion 2.0 for the next age.Probably hoping at some stage this will come true along the way.
The history channel proves me correct I think.Masses of people already have a veil over their eyes.
This will be a piece of cake to pull off over a 100+ years.

My view on the world anyway lol

SoulandForm

A group to make contacts.

Aquarius34 are you a Gnostic?

Do you consider that matter is the creation of a fallen created being?

Absolam

A money making group.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

What a pile of bullsh*t.

Are you disagreeing with Robroys idea of what a higher power is, or the entry requirements for Freemasonry? Either way, your argument is not compelling.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Freemasons worship "a" being.

I think it has been repeated sufficiently; belief in a Supreme Being is a requirement for entry to the Freemasons. It does therefore obviously follow that most Freemasons worship a being.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

The term worship does not entitled itself to worshiping to something omnipresent Jehovah is a being, he is not "God", he is not omnipresent, he's just a created being like anyone else is.

That is actually nonsense. Perhaps you would care to rephrase?

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Again that is what freemasons worship whether they know it or not. Freemasonry was founded by Jehovah. He is the same guy who founded religion also.

It's very kind of you to tell us who to worship, but most of us would rather choose for ourselves. You appear to know Jehovah quite well, but I'm afraid he's fibbing to you if he told you he founded the Freemasons and religion.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

We can argue this to the moon and back, the Freemasons can keep spinning on this issue, but this is the reality here and this is the deception at work.

Aw now, we're not arguing.

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

SoulandForm wrote: »

Aquarius34 are you a Gnostic?
Do you consider that matter is the creation of a fallen created being?

Like what the bible states? It depends on what you mean on by what is a fallen angel. If it's from the biblical perspective, I don't believe in any of that. I just acknowledge that we all come from the source, we all make up the source and we are fragments of it. We are all part of the consciousness of all that is.

Freemasonry is a religion and it was designed to worship the Annunaki gods who came here a long time ago.

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Are you disagreeing with Robroys idea of what a higher power is, or the entry requirements for Freemasonry? Either way, your argument is not compelling.

I'm not interested in trying sound compelling to you, it's obvious you are going to stick your head in the ground when it comes to the truth of it.

I think it has been repeated sufficiently; belief in a Supreme Being is a requirement for entry to the Freemasons. It does therefore obviously follow that most Freemasons worship a being.

Well obviously.

It's very kind of you to tell us who to worship, but most of us would rather choose for ourselves. You appear to know Jehovah quite well, but I'm afraid he's fibbing to you if he told you he founded the Freemasons and religion.

Aw now, we're not arguing.

He didn't tell me.;)

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

Of course Jehovah wouldn't admit it. But that would be only telling and letting the cat out of the bag, now wouldn't it.

Absolam

A money making group.

Torakx wrote: »

My CT regarding the Freemasons rules, and my focus on the supreme being, is that without this shell on every(or most) members,due to the requirement of externalizing your "soul" for want of a better word,a certain amount of control and supplication to the organisation is assured. A certain amount of ignorance is likely.

Can you explain why you think that requiring a belief in a Supreme Being assures a certain amount of control and supplication to the (presumably Masonic?) organisation?
It would appear to me that it assures the opposite; each member is likely to have ties to a religious organisation which will require (I presume) supplication of the relevant divinity, and will control/prescribe the persons' religious behaviour, which neccasarily would restrict any influence the Masonic organisation might try to exert on a members' "soul", particularly when the Masonic organisation doesn't have the option of presenting divine will as a rationale.

Absolam

A money making group.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I'm not interested in trying sound compelling to you, it's obvious you are going to stick your head in the ground when it comes to the truth of it.

Indeed, I will have to hastily find a suitable hole once you present some 'truth'. But I wasn't asking you to sound compelling, I was asking which of Robroys points you were being so colourfully dismissive of.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

He didn't tell me.;)

Ah. Would I be right in thinking you worked it out for yourself?

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Of course Jehovah wouldn't admit it. But that would be only telling and letting the cat out of the bag, now wouldn't it.

So... did he tell you that?

Aquarius34

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Absolam wrote: »

Indeed, I will have to hastily find a suitable hole once you present some 'truth'. But I wasn't asking you to sound compelling, I was asking which of Robroys points you were being so colourfully dismissive of.

I've explained my points already on that.

Ah. Would I be right in thinking you worked it out for yourself?

What do you think?

So... did he tell you that?

He sure says a lot of things, didn't get to meet him yet, no?;) What a pity.

Absolam

A money making group.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Freemasonry is a religion and it was designed to worship the Annunaki gods who came here a long time ago.

Are you presenting this as a 'truth' or a fact? Just so we know how to proceed...

Aquarius34

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Absolam wrote: »

Are you presenting this as a 'truth' or a fact? Just so we know how to proceed...

The truth is the truth.

To proceed, it would be logical to face the truth in that respect.

Absolam

A money making group.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I've explained my points already on that.

No... Robroy posted and you replied:

Aquarius34 wrote: »

What a pile of bullsh*t.

He made two points; I'm only asking which one you were referring to.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

What do you think?

I might have given you a clue when I said 'Would I be right in thinking'...

Aquarius34 wrote: »

He sure says a lot of things, didn't get to meet him yet, no?;) What a pity.

I'll comfort myself knowing you'll pass on my warmest regards the next time you speak

Absolam

A money making group.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

The truth is the truth.

To proceed, it would be logical to face the truth in that respect.

Right, and apples are apples, but bees make honey. Does that mean you're offering your statement as a 'truth' or a fact?

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

No... Robroy posted and you replied:

He made two points; I'm only asking which one you were referring to.

Amazing how other posters can understand the point's I've raised, but you can't seem too.

I might have given you a clue when I said 'Would I be right in thinking'...

Really, that's amazing.

I'll comfort myself knowing you'll pass on my warmest regards the next time you speak

Ha, don't take yourself so seriously.

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Right, and apples are apples, but bees make honey. Does that mean you're offering your statement as a 'truth' or a fact?

Yes, apples are apples and a spade is a spade.

You can toss your head and try determine what isn't and what's not till the cows come home, but the truth is what it is. Freemasons worship Jehovah.

The truth is always going to show up in the end. Like I said earlier you can sit here and shake your head all you want, that's your problem. It's not my problem. I really don't care if Freemasons do know the truth or not. They have been fooled enough to follow along in the first place anyway.

Absolam

A money making group.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

You can toss your head and try determine what isn't and what's not till the cows come home, but the truth is what it is. Freemasons worship Jehovah.

So you're saying it's a 'truth' not a fact. I just wanted to be clear, that's all.

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

So you're saying it's a 'truth' not a fact. I just wanted to be clear, that's all.

:rolleyes:

Torakx

Absolam wrote: »

Can you explain why you think that requiring a belief in a Supreme Being assures a certain amount of control and supplication to the (presumably Masonic?) organisation?
It would appear to me that it assures the opposite; each member is likely to have ties to a religious organisation which will require (I presume) supplication of the relevant divinity, and will control/prescribe the persons' religious behaviour, which neccasarily would restrict any influence the Masonic organisation might try to exert on a members' "soul", particularly when the Masonic organisation doesn't have the option of presenting divine will as a rationale.

Mark 12:17 highlights it a little maybe
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's".
That doesnt leave much for me,when you think about it. lol

The very habit of doing this relieves people of their open mindedness and independant habit of thinking that we first have as a child.

This seems to me, to be one of the main requirements to become initiated.

We are all conditioned by our enviornment obviously and adapt to suit it.
Religion takes advantage of this I believe and keeps people in a state of ignorance in general.
They tend to give up the need to search for answers, to question things.
Why should they?
All the answers are in their faith and government/society they belong to and that will guide them.
Just sit back and flow down the river....Where it goes nobody knows lol

I beached a few years ago and am camped on the side watching everyone float past...or so it seems..to speak in parables.

Its not that i think all Freemasons are like this.Its more that I feel this requrement helps them root out independant thinkers and a knowledge that their members are under the control of a faith already,so they build on those foundations.
Apparently making good men better.
Dare I say religious, even more religious in other aspects of life or thinking?

robroy1234

Torakx - If you are so overwhelmingly concerned about control and other people controlling you, then obviously you would have to do away with human behaviour and behavioural psychology, that would include all forms of education - regardless of which of the pedagogical schools you would adhere to, all forms of sport - as this would involve learning behaviour. This also requires you giving up what is essentially a human being, because you are a slave to Maslow's hierarchy of Needs. Then on top of that all forms of communication - even this website, considering that it features the very essence of mass control - advertising. This particular website actually owes it existence to such mass control of advertising. Advertising is the most surest form of mass control as if it wasn't then there wouldn't be advertising on the internet, TV, radio, newspapers, billboards etc., and I wouldn't have to explain to young athletes that Lucosade Sport or Red Bull won't make them perform better with the exception of training and preparation.
The thing is though there is a huge difference between Mass Control and Peer Identity and Acceptance. Mass Control is an extremely volatile and at times a negative force to contend with and is susceptible to stirring of the emotions - I suggest that you guys watch "The Wave" this is a perfect example of Mass Control Manipulation and is based on true events in the US.
Peer Identity and Acceptance is more loosely based and can be seen within a group of people sitting in a room - a good look around and you would see people mirroring each other, this is not Mass Control but Peer Identity and Acceptance.

Now as for worship - there is no worship of any deity in the Lodge, we all believe in a Supreme Being - and as stated before that Supreme Being is whomever we choose. But, there is no worshiping going on in the lodge nor any discussion on religious matters at all.

Aquarius34

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Now as for worship - there is no worship of any deity in the Lodge, we all believe in a Supreme Being - and as stated before that Supreme Being is whomever we choose. But, there is no worshiping going on in the lodge nor any discussion on religious matters at all.

And Jehovah would agree with you I am sure. It seems all rosy with what you say doesn't it. I mean if it is true what you say. What's the whole point then. You sit in a lodge, doing rituals, having meetings and all that jazz, but the requirement to be part of the lodge means you must believe in a supreme being. What's the point in that. Why do you have to "join" a club for this? What's the logic in it. You know you try to talk about logic, but you don't seem to show it on this point at all. What makes it more illogical is having all the members believing "in different deities and different supreme beings.

Doesn't it all sound a bit off the wall......

P.S you mentioned worship in previous posts, and now you are refraining from the word.

Torakx

Oh my. I dont even know where to start to correct those comments RobRoy hehe.

Its like you took what I said and twisted it to look like I am afraid of any influence in anyones life.
Im well aware of all influences.
I also stated....

We are all conditioned by our enviornment obviously and adapt to suit it.

It so happens I do not agree with advertising,media interfering in sports and television in peoples sitting rooms.
And many other things that influence society and change culture.

I happen to be stuck living in under those conditions.If I was able to I would be living out in the wilds.But that is not realistic as this global society fast encroaches on any of these habitatble territories.

robroy1234

I don't know how you are going to correct Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - I mean you can try to go without oxygen....but, I don't think you will get far. Let me know how you get on with the revolt against those dastardly physiological needs....

As far as anyone goes, we are slaves to our physiological needs from which all human behaviour develops from. As for advertising - most of which is targeted and some just thrown out there - now I am very tempted by these Iranian Singles and by then directed to Russian Brides page to the right of this box - however, my wife wouldn't appreciate any of this and no doubt the next advert would be for marriage counselling.....Now to me water is water, but to some people it is Deep River Rock, or Ballygowen or whatever it is, but the advertising is so clever that they would persuade you that there water is purer than....water - and so how are we going to test that?
Oh well I won't shed any tears over that, I don't have any Kleenex - I mean tissues.....

As for the worshiping - you can believe in Yahew, Jehovah, Allah, Hindu, Shiva, Budha, etc., as your respective Supreme Being. Within the Lodge whomever you believe in is the Supreme Being - so a Jew, Christian and Muslim can all sit in a lodge, their respective deity as their own faith, but equal in the lodge, and with no discussion of religious matters ever to held within the lodge.

Torakx

robroy1234 wrote: »

I don't know how you are going to correct Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - I mean you can try to go without oxygen....but, I don't think you will get far. Let me know how you get on with the revolt against those dastardly physiological needs....

As far as anyone goes, we are slaves to our physiological needs from which all human behaviour develops from. As for advertising - most of which is targeted and some just thrown out there - now I am very tempted by these Iranian Singles and by then directed to Russian Brides page to the right of this box - however, my wife wouldn't appreciate any of this and no doubt the next advert would be for marriage counselling.....Now to me water is water, but to some people it is Deep River Rock, or Ballygowen or whatever it is, but the advertising is so clever that they would persuade you that there water is purer than....water - and so how are we going to test that?
Oh well I won't shed any tears over that, I don't have any Kleenex - I mean tissues.....

What has all this got to do with anything I wrote ^^
I genuinely dont know.Unless its an attempt to twist my words.
But for discussions sake, I will wait for a reason first.
And If you could please refer back to my comments, so I know which points exactly you are refering to.

robroy1234

The very habit of doing this relieves people of their open mindedness and independent habit of thinking that we first have as a child

Now this would be taken as a Rousseau concept of "Man is born free but everywhere in chains."

So the argument extends to the level of at which point are we really free, and what exactly is being "Free" and "Freedom" all about. In fact the words "Free" and "Freedom" are bandied about so much, with so little thought to what they actually mean. Is it - lack of responsibility, the ideal existence of that doing nothing or doing something without facing any consequence to one's actions/inactions.

I can assure you though, that for myself in regards to everyone else, there is no mass control, or manipulation from here. As for rooting out independent thinkers - that is definitely not the case here, all fellow brethren that I know are highly intelligent and independent blokes - and so strict are we that we do not allow any discussion of religion and politics in the lodge we don't even know who supports which football teams.

Torakx

Your getting close to what im saying.
I see it simply that a man who is willing to let a fictional being control his life is in some respects or other going to be more vunerable than somebody who does not believe in that which he cannot prove to himself exists.
Faith...i suppose.
I dont have faith in anything.I only believe really that nothing is certain and anything is possible.
I do bandy words about, but hope my meaning is understood.

Actually the fact it is a supreme being and not just a religion may highlight my point.

I was looking for something to sketch and came across a wonderfull Carl Jung quote.
might aswell post the pic for emphasis

Absolam

A money making group.

Torakx wrote: »

Mark 12:17 highlights it a little maybe
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's". That doesnt leave much for me,when you think about it. lol The very habit of doing this relieves people of their open mindedness and independant habit of thinking that we first have as a child. This seems to me, to be one of the main requirements to become initiated.

To avoid confusion, the requirement is a belief in a Supreme Being. Being relieved of open-mindededness and independant thought is not a requirement.
I understand you ascribe those attributes to people who are members of religions but I would point out the majority of great thinkers in history have been members of religions; their membership didn't impair their independant thinking or open mindedness. Albertus Magnus, Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī, Nicolaus Copernicus, Ibn al-Nafis , Johannes Kepler, Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī, Galileo Galilei, Ibn al-Haytham, René Descartes.. that's before we even look at the last 200 years. In fact I'd hazard a guess that there have been more famous and accomplished 'religious' open minded independant thinkers than 'non-religious'. Not because it makes a difference, but because it doesn't.

Torakx wrote: »

Religion takes advantage of this I believe and keeps people in a state of ignorance in general. They tend to give up the need to search for answers, to question things. Why should they? All the answers are in their faith and government/society they belong to and that will guide them.

Again, I think you're ascribing your experience with one religion to all religions; some religions attempt to keep people in a state of ignorance with regard to certain specifics. But it does not follow that people tend to give up the need to search for answers or to question things, as the list above demonstrates. It's much fairer to say that a certain kind of person is inclined not to think for themselves when provided with an accomodating environment.

Torakx wrote: »

Its not that i think all Freemasons are like this.Its more that I feel this requrement helps them root out independant thinkers and a knowledge that their members are under the control of a faith already,so they build on those foundations. Apparently making good men better.

I hope the above demonstrates the fallacy of this; religion doesn't weed out independant thinkers, so the requirement doesn't either. I also dispute the term 'control'; you surely don't imagine that every Roman Catholic is 'controlled' by the Church do you? Far too many constantly defy and break the Church rules for that to be a realistic assertion. If the Freemasons were trying to build on those foundations of 'control', we'd be on shaky ground indeed. I daresay the whole thing would have collapsed hundreds of years ago.

Torakx wrote: »

Dare I say religious, even more religious in other aspects of life or thinking?

You can say most members are religious, in one form or another. But only more religious if you mean more moral... and I suspect you'd object to equating religious with moral. Quite rightly in my opinion.

Torakx wrote: »

I see it simply that a man who is willing to let a fictional being control his life is in some respects or other going to be more vunerable than somebody who does not believe in that which he cannot prove to himself exists.

Would he be more or less 'vulnerable' if he could prove beyond doubt, to both himself and everyone else, that his life was controlled by an omniscient, omnipotent, concretely right in front of you being? He would still be being controlled. It seems to me this is fast becoming a religious discussion, rather than one about Freemasonry; the verifiabilty and or limitations of any given deity is not something that concerns Freemasonry, only the various people that believe in it.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

And Jehovah would agree with you I am sure.

Since you seem to have a direct line we'll have to take your word for that...

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I mean if it is true what you say. What's the whole point then. You sit in a lodge, doing rituals, having meetings and all that jazz, but the requirement to be part of the lodge means you must believe in a supreme being. What's the point in that. Why do you have to "join" a club for this?

Nobody said you have to join the club. If you don't see the point, that's fine, nobody's making you join in.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

You know you try to talk about logic, but you don't seem to show it on this point at all. What makes it more illogical is having all the members believing "in different deities and different supreme beings.

What's illogical about accepting that people believe what they want? Seems quite logical to me.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Doesn't it all sound a bit off the wall......

There are so many of your posts I'd like to refer to here, but there are just so very many that all I can say is, you know what they are!

Aquarius34 wrote: »

P.S you mentioned worship in previous posts, and now you are refraining from the word.

He mentioned the word 'worship' three times in the post you quoted and replied to. I think you may be mistaking the meaning of 'refraining'.

Torakx

hehe your dancing a fine jig again.
That is my opinion on it though.Its my experience aswell.
We can debate it for weeks.
But I tend to side with experience.
Of all the people I met out of the JW's, the only ones to become more aware of their enviornment and the control it has to any extent are those who broke away with me.
The rest wander about oblivious to alot of stuff.

You can say that is just cult behaviour.
I tend to think it is rooted in their unwavering faith in God to direct their every move.
Not all masons would be like this.But a good many may have a smaller version of this mechanic going on.And any version of it, is not great for an independant open mind.

Yes many religious people can be intelligent.I knew many in the cult who were really great chess players.
I mean they beat me sometimes :P hehe
But overall completely ignorant in other ways.

There are different types of smarts I believe and I prefer to leave myself open to growing on all fronts that I possibly can.
A faith or belief in a supreme being to me is a sign of looking outside yourself for something or assigning power of some kind.

Absolam

A money making group.

Torakx wrote: »

hehe your dancing a fine jig again.

I'm happy to be more specific on any points you think I'm dancing around...

Torakx wrote: »

That is my opinion on it though.Its my experience aswell. We can debate it for weeks. But I tend to side with experience.
Of all the people I met out of the JW's, the only ones to become more aware of their enviornment and the control it has to any extent are those who broke away with me. The rest wander about oblivious to alot of stuff. You can say that is just cult behaviour. I tend to think it is rooted in their unwavering faith in God to direct their every move.

I don't disagree with your assessment, but you have to admit it is your assessment of one relatively small religion based entirely on your personal experience. In my own experience, I've met very few people who believe God directs their every move, and I know people from quite varied faith backgrounds, so your singular experience (I am in no way diminishing or denigrating your experience as a personal life event) is hardly a basis for a balanced evaluation of the unifying factors of all religions, and how that affects the membership of Freemasonry.

Torakx wrote: »

Not all masons would be like this.But a good many may have a smaller version of this mechanic going on.And any version of it, is not great for an independant open mind.

I agree; about the same proportion of Freemasons are easily led as any other cross section of society.

Torakx wrote: »

Yes many religious people can be intelligent.I knew many in the cult who were really great chess players. I mean they beat me sometimes :P hehe But overall completely ignorant in other ways.

Well, we were actually talking about being open-minded and independant thinkers; do you agree that many religious people can be open-minded and independant thinkers? I do agree many religious people can be intelligent, and strategists, but only that some are partially ignorant in some ways; overall and completely are really far too sweeping a generalisation to be realistic.

Torakx wrote: »

A faith or belief in a supreme being to me is a sign of looking outside yourself for something or assigning power of some kind.

I agree that faith is generally externalised; most people who think they are God are walking a fairly slim tightrope. I don't think it means assigning power of any kind though; if you believe God is omnipotent you're not conferring that power upon him, since you're not omnipotent yourself. Regardless, these are not issues of Freemasonry, these are issues of theology; the discussion would probably find more interesting contributions than mine on the Religion & Spirituality forum.

Torakx

Ah maybe we have different understandings of what im talking about,when I speak of the God in me.
I didnt say I was God, I hope I didnt, as that may confuse people.
There is no tightrope in that respect, I think.
In my view its about self acceptance and responsibility on many levels.
Pretty much as the Carl Jung quote indicates or is hinting at.
When you externalise you are in some ways dreaming.
Depends on how much you externalise though, doesnt it?

My experience was an extreme one in some ways and why I thought it a good example of a lesser dynamic in people who supplicate themselves to other external percieved supreme beings,Gods,religions etc.

You mentioned led.I suppose that might be a description.
Im not great at expaining myself I know that.
Its not that I believe this is the be alland end all of humans neurosis.
I see these dynamics as some of many parts.
There are people who worship other role models and give up other powers to them too.
I have issue with that aswell.
However we are here talking about Freemasons and the supreme beings/religions their members subscribe to and the possible reason for the need to have such a faith and any possible consequences.