The Freemasons

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

See, you're being dishonest again. Thats not what you asked PaintDoctor.

You asked:



Which is a different question, and untrue.

It's not what I asked originally but he ducked the question .

This is probably why

THE CHARGES OF A FREE-MASON EXTRACTED FROM The Ancient RECORDS of LODGES beyond Sea, and of those in England, Scotland, and Ireland, for the Use of the Lodges.


4. Behaviour in Presence of Strangers not Masons.
You shall be cautious in your Words and Carriage, that the most penetrating Stranger shall not be able to discover or find out what is not proper to be intimated, and sometimes you shall divert a Discourse, and manage it prudently for the Honour of the worshipful Fraternity.

so I made it simpler. I already know the answer anyway.

From A Textbook of Masonic Jurisprudence by Bro. Albert G. Mackey. pg 164 & 164

Apprentices also have the right to apply for advancement to a higher degree...He is eligible for advancement; but here this right ceases. It goes no further than the mere prerogative of applying. It is only the right of petition. The apprentice has, in fact no more claim to the second degree than the profane has to the first. It is a most mistaken opinion to suppose that when a profane is elected as a candidate, he is elected to recieve all the degrees that can be conferred in a Symbolic lodge. Freemasonry is a rigid system of probation. A second step never can be attained unless sufficent proof has been given that the candidate is "worthy" and well qualified. A candidate who received the first degree is no more assured by this reception that he will reach the third than he will attain the Royal Arch...Hence on the petition of an Apprentice to be passed as a Fellow Craft a ballot should always be taken...Any other view would exclude the inherent right which is declared by the Regulations of 1721 to exist in every Lodge, of being the best judges of the qualifications of it's members.

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - in relation to any International conspiracies etc., such as the P2 scandal, you will find that the Vatican was far more involved and that Roberto Calvi was known as God's banker, he was the fella found under blackfriars bidge. The P2 group wasn't at all Masonic, as no initiations took place and that the Grand Lodge of Italy rejected it. The P2 members were mostly former supporters of the Fascist Party. As for the KKK, they are a localised organisation based in the Southern States of the US, and are violent racists. They have no association beyond the confines of the US. Any other conspiracy theory that we are involved with such organisations as the Bilderburg, the Illuminati etc., are so ridiculous that they cannot be taken seriously, but many violent conspiracy theorists do take them seriously. As for the New World Order, there has Only been one global entity that has strove to be the major force in the world, besides that of the UN, and that is the Vatican. But, this is not a religious debate and therefore we will stop at this point concerning the influence of certain religious groups, churches and organisations in politics, economics, medicine, and the private lives of citizens. Suffice it to say, the people whom it seems accuse us of doing all sorts of things in society are the very ones committing these acts.
I think that many people have dreamt up some ideas that we have some arcane, secret, known to us select few and that we jealously keep it guarded for our own selfish ends. They get more so annoyed when discovering that this is completely untrue. We do have a secret ballot, but that is not strange or different to any other organisation, and we are free to pick and choose the type of member we want in our organisation.
Brown Bomber - there is somewhat of a problem when using old terminology, and in our case our wording and phrases have not changed since freemasonry was formed. This has given rise to a present day interpretation of what we say. A prime example of a modern interpretation from an ancient concept would be to look at Mel Gibson's Braveheart, in the film he is always referring to Freedom - but only in the modern sense, in those days William Wallace was a supporter of John Balliol, King of Scotland and puppet to Longshanks. If you go back to that time with a modern interpretation of Freedom you would find that it would be a completely alien concept to them.

Owen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Now here you are either a) Lying or b) So ignorant of a basic tenet of freemasonry rendering it impossible that you actually are a mason as you claim (meaning you are lying).

In summary, you are lying?...Why?

Right ... so lets see. I'm not using this forum in an anonymous manner by hiding behind a username (Unlike you) ... my signature links to my business which is easily verifiable (Unlike you) ... It's quite easy to meet me in person given those details and ask me for a tour of the Lodge room in Cork. Quite a few users here have done it. With a bit of detective work from my sig, you can get my real name, and then make a quick telephone call to Molesworth Street and find out my office in Lodge for this year if you'd like. Or if you want to come to Cork, I'll give you a tour myself.

And BTW, I didn't dodge any question. I was out yesterday at the Tom Jones concert, there's a life beyond the Internet and Boards

You asked the question about there being secret ballots for the higher orders of Masonry (Bearing in mind as pointed out to you at length, there's no higher order than than of a Master Mason, the others are complimentary). I rightly told you there was no secret ballot for those degrees. There is a secret ballot for someone who applies to join as an Entered Apprentice, but it's the only time a secret ballot is ever held. That, is an entirely different question/answer to the one you directed at me.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So perhaps you briefly could explain how I am "avoiding the point" and have been "caught out"as I see zero evidence of it.

Of course you do. Nonetheless, you tried to ignore PaintDoctors point that American Freemasonry is different from Irish Freemasonry, and tried to make it appear you were talking about English Freemasonry.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not making stuff up, it is rather dishonest for you to claim this. I've primarily quoted from official masonic sources.

I'm not saying you made up your quotes, but you did make up your conclusions:

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You can be be blackballed and refused the opportunity to attain the higher levels can you not?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Now here you are either a) Lying or b) So ignorant of a basic tenet of freemasonry rendering it impossible that you actually are a mason as you claim (meaning you are lying). In summary, you are lying?...Why?

You've presented your conclusion and called someone a liar, with no basis other than your own ideas; you made it up.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And Are you saying that there are no higher levels in masonry than entered apprentice?

That's not what I said, and you know it's not what I said, again you're making things up.

Brown Bomber wrote:

And you don't have to be a mason to know that there is secret balloting within masonry. It is an easily verifiable fact. Do you deny this?

It's no secret there is secret balloting in Masonry. Why would I deny it? That doesn't mean you can stretch the truth and imagine that there is secret balloting on your choice of imaginary subjects, because to claim that would be lying.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to be another mason to lie publically in this thread?

I haven't seen any evidence of a Mason lying on this thread. I have seen you call people liars because they disagree with you though.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Is there secret balloting in Irish freemasonry?

Yes indeed, as has been explained to you.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yet more obfuscating on your part. It's rather ironic that article written by a Freemason and taken from a freemasonic source confirming the inherent importance of the older texts to freemasonry is belittled by a freemason for being an old text don't you think?

I'm not certain how it would be ironic, but I'm not belittling the article in any case. These things are of immense historical interest to Freemasons, and I very much enjoy reading them. I simply don't imagine for a second that historical articles such as the one you linked are definitive treatises on Modern Freemasonry, because that would be idiotic.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So your local golf club welcomes members "willing to let themselves become a better moral person and a more charitable person to all mankind" WTF

What club wouldn't?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Methinks you through out the golf club at the end because to disguise the fact that you'd just mentioned three religions when masonry supposedly isn't religious in nature. Actually, I have a question if you don't mind... What specifically would masonry have to change about itself to become religous (assuming it's not already)

Freemasonry isn't a religion, many Freemasons are religious. I don't think an organisation can become religious; it either is or isn't a religious organisation.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

They are all easily explained.

That does not stop them from being slurs.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

In summary, you are lying?..He was.

No, he just knew more than you about the subject. You made up the idea that there is secret balloting for higher levels; he told you you were wrong.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

it excludes and discriminates against people BORN with deformities or disabilities. According to freemasonry's own documents it does.

No, according to your interpretation of the documents you've seen it does. Whilst ignoring the fact that it's easy to actually see Freemasons with deformaties or disabilites by standing outside a Masonic Hall for a while. If you're really interested, you can ask them if they were born with them. Or would that be too much like finding out the truth instead of making things up?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part 1.Selective quoting continuing the pattern on dishonesty. "I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part."

My not noting that you came to a conclusion is dishonest? Do you really think the substance of your statement was in any way misrepresented?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

2. It's a natural logical conclusion that you cannot be trusted regarding freemasonry in discourse with the profane because you are oath-bound to protect it's "hidden doctrines". How can you possibly try to argue against this?

Ah well if it's natural then it's fine isn't it? But as we've discussed before; "profane" and "hidden doctrines" are your terms not mine. And as a self professed "profane" individual it's only natural that you'd be well up on the oaths binding me to protect your "hidden doctrines". I couldn't possibly argue against this, because you're the only one who has any idea what you're talking about. The perfect, unassailable position for a CTer.

robroy1234

In relation to Bomb bomber's comments and responses and to any other for that matter, I am pretty much at ease with whatever idea people may have of us, regardless if the they believe we are for good or evil. We continue on in the manner that is suitable for us. It is the same way in other walks of life, considering that athletes still continue competing despite allegations of steriod abuse, Politicians still decide on political matters regardless of financial scandals, priests and pastors still preach and minister to their respective parishioners in spite of the abuse relevations, and so therefore we will continue with upholding our traditional practices, becoming better men within ourselves, and providing some funds towards our chosen charities - this in respect to a multitude of accusations which none of us individually or collectively are capable of doing.
People can believe whatever they want to believe, they are adults and perfectly capable of making informed decisions for themselves, the only problem is when the incorrect information is relayed to them and despite evidence contrary to that information they continue on, unable or unwilling to accept that mind-mapping exercise of the paradigm shift.
This leads to another problem which is part of the structure of freemasonry in that some people get confused about. This problem is that in terms of myself, my own personal opinion about a subject - whether it is political, economical, religious, medical etc., is MY OWN THOUGHT, and I do not speak for or represent freemasonry when expressing such thoughts. Not one Brother mason in Ireland can speak on these subjects on behalf of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. These subjects are never discussed, and never printed or expressed in the lodge before, during and after meetings. Therefore the Grand Lodge of Ireland remains aloof and silent on all issues domestic and international that is in these spheres.
But, as mentioned previously, there have been certain historically famous freemasons who have done amazing things in their lives, whether that is through Science, Medicine, Economics, Politics, etc., but these achievements were done outside of freemasonry and not because of freemasonry. Therefore it is quite common for people to jump to conclusions that what we do not say in Public - we influence in Private.
As for certain aspects of membership - I could be a member of a local golf club, people can see me enter the club, play the game, sit in the clubhouse, but my membership number which allows me to enter the club and use the facilities is for my own use only and is private to me only.

So for the people like Bomb Bomber, I can understand your position, but we are only just trying to enjoy our membership to an organisation that we prefer to be members.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Brown Bomber - in relation to any International conspiracies etc., such as the P2 scandal, you will find that the Vatican was far more involved and that Roberto Calvi was known as God's banker, he was the fella found under blackfriars bidge. The P2 group wasn't at all Masonic, as no initiations took place and that the Grand Lodge of Italy rejected it. The P2 members were mostly former supporters of the Fascist Party.

To be fair by all accounts P-2 was a regular lodge. That's even how they came to be known as P-2. In an effort to organise the lodges the Grand Lodge of Italy had the regular lodges draw lots to see how they would be numbered, Lodge Propoganda drew lot two becoming P-2.

Gelli and P-2 were only expelled after the police raid on Grand Master Lucio Gelli's home, long after the terrorist attacks in Milan and Paetano.

robroy1234 wrote: »

As for the KKK, they are a localised organisation based in the Southern States of the US, and are violent racists.

Yes they are violent racists and they were founded by Freemasons and revived by Freemasons in their second even more violent and racist incarnation.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Any other conspiracy theory that we are involved with such organisations as the Bilderburg, the Illuminati etc., are so ridiculous that they cannot be taken seriously,

The Bavarian were very much real they were founded and run by a Freemason, Adam Weishaupt. They were very much subversive. I don't see what your argument is here.

I'm not saying the Klan/Illuminati/P-2 are the same as regular masonry just that they are evidence of the dangers of freemasonry which is vulnerable to be used as a vehicle for these "violent racists" and so on. Freemasonry itself, imo is based on supremacism: the initiate over the profane and is shrouded in secrecy with a vast international network making it a natural target for infiltration.

robroy1234 wrote: »

but many violent conspiracy theorists do take them seriously.

I am not aware of any violent attacks by conspiracy theorists on freemasons.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Brown Bomber - there is somewhat of a problem when using old terminology, and in our case our wording and phrases have not changed since freemasonry was formed. This has given rise to a present day interpretation of what we say. A prime example of a modern interpretation from an ancient concept would be to look at Mel Gibson's Braveheart, in the film he is always referring to Freedom - but only in the modern sense, in those days William Wallace was a supporter of John Balliol, King of Scotland and puppet to Longshanks. If you go back to that time with a modern interpretation of Freedom you would find that it would be a completely alien concept to them.

That's a very valid point and it is duly noticed.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Right ... so lets see. I'm not using this forum in an anonymous manner by hiding behind a username (Unlike you) ... my signature links to my business which is easily verifiable (Unlike you) ... It's quite easy to meet me in person given those details and ask me for a tour of the Lodge room in Cork. Quite a few users here have done it. With a bit of detective work from my sig, you can get my real name, and then make a quick telephone call to Molesworth Street and find out my office in Lodge for this year if you'd like. Or if you want to come to Cork, I'll give you a tour myself.

That's nice of you, genuinely. I don't live in Ireland though, would've been interesting.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

And BTW, I didn't dodge any question. I was out yesterday at the Tom Jones concert, there's a life beyond the Internet and Boards

I'd say most of the people at a Tom Jones concert were "out";)

PaintDoctor wrote: »

You asked the question about there being secret ballots for the higher orders of Masonry (Bearing in mind as pointed out to you at length, there's no higher order than than of a Master Mason, the others are complimentary). I rightly told you there was no secret ballot for those degrees. There is a secret ballot for someone who applies to join as an Entered Apprentice, but it's the only time a secret ballot is ever held. That, is an entirely different question/answer to the one you directed at me.

OK I hold my hand up, it appears I was wrong and I think we had our wires crossed a little which didn't help. If I wrongly accused you of lying I apologise. Live and learn and all that. However, you said it is a "choice" for the initiate to take the higher degrees. I dispute this. Surely not every Entered Apprentice is suitable to become a Master Mason? There is no due dillegence? No observance of the Entered Apprentice? Just your in...learn your cathecism like a good lad and read this book on symbols and you'll get your Master Mason's degree in a few weeks. It reminds me of when I was in the Cubs getting badges for tying a knot or the special olympics were everyone gets a medal.

Also, I am 100% sure that some of the degrees outside the craft degrees are by invitation only.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Of course you do. Nonetheless, you tried to ignore PaintDoctors point that American Freemasonry is different from Irish Freemasonry, and tried to make it appear you were talking about English Freemasonry. .

I've already explained this to you; as if any explanation was actually necessary. I was adressing squod and sharing a link. Why you continue to labour the point is anyone's guess.

FWIW I did address Paintdoctors non-relevant point i.e. American and Irish masonry are different. I never disputed this, I am aware that they are different. My point was that Jefferson's work was a reprint on Anderson's 1723 Constitution. Perhaps you could honestly share the significance of this constitution to Irish masonry?

Absolam wrote: »

I'm not saying you made up your quotes, but you did make up your conclusions:

I "made up" MY CONCLUSIONS? :pac: Someone call RTE news, there is a guy thinking for himself coming to conclusions of his own.

BTW you haven't cited a single source for your assertions yet.

Absolam wrote: »

Freemasonry isn't a religion, many Freemasons are religious. I don't think an organisation can become religious; it either is or isn't a religious organisation.

OK I'll put it another way. In your view why isn't Freemasonry a religion?

Absolam wrote: »

Ah well if it's natural then it's fine isn't it? But as we've discussed before; "profane" and "hidden doctrines" are your terms not mine.

And yet.more.obfuscation.

"Hidden Doctrines" was not my term it was a quote from The Principles of Masonic Law by Bro. Albert G. Mackey (as stated!)

. It is evident, for instance, that an idiot could neither understand the hidden doctrines that might be communicated to him, nor could he so secure such portions as he might remember, in the "depositary of his heart," as to prevent the designing knave from worming them out of him

Profane? My term? Nope, it's a masonic term which you undoubtedly know yourself already.

[SIZE=-1]PROFANE[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]A word used by Freemasons to refer to non-Masons. Although probably not intended as a pejorative, it nonetheless comes across as such due to how the meaning of the word has changed over the years. Within the context of Masonic ritual the word maintains value, however outside the lodge it should not be used.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]- Source: MasonicDictionary.com[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]PROFANE[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]This has a technical meaning in Masonry, nevertheless it adheres closely to the original significance of the word. Fanum was the Latin for temple; pro meant “before,” in the sense of “outside of.” It is the picture of man standing on the outside, not permitted to enter. It has tlfis same sense in Masonry; the “profane” are those men and women who stand outside of Masonry. The word here, of course, has nothing to do with profanity in the sense of sacrilegious language.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]- Source: 100 Words in Masonry[/SIZE]

Absolam wrote: »

And as a self professed "profane" individual it's only natural that you'd be well up on the oaths binding me to protect your "hidden doctrines". I couldn't possibly argue against this, because you're the only one who has any idea what you're talking about. The perfect, unassailable position for a CTer.

On the contrary they are masonic terms used by masons. Why obfuscate?

Wolfe Tone

A money making group.

Meh, they just seem to be a club with some fancy symbols. I say its kinda neat having the rings and handshakes and stuff.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

So for the people like Bomb Bomber, I can understand your position, but we are only just trying to enjoy our membership to an organisation that we prefer to be members.

I genuinely wish you all the best with it. Honest. You've been highly dignified in your exchanges with me despite the difficult circumstances for you. If masonry has contributed to this I commend it. It's honestly nothing personal, I don't hate masonry or masons. My father-in-law is a mason.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Meh, they just seem to be a club with some fancy symbols. I say its kinda neat having the rings and handshakes and stuff.

"Signs and symbols rule the world, not words nor laws."
- Confucius

nullzero

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Meh, they just seem to be a club with some fancy symbols. I say its kinda neat having the rings and handshakes and stuff.

Begs the question why would anyone want to bother being a member?

Owen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'd say most of the people at a Tom Jones concert were "out";)

lol, cheeky bugger!!

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Surely not every Entered Apprentice is suitable to become a Master Mason? There is no due dillegence? No observance of the Entered Apprentice? Just your in...learn your cathecism like a good lad and read this book on symbols and you'll get your Master Mason's degree in a few weeks. It reminds me of when I was in the Cubs getting badges for tying a knot or the special olympics were everyone gets a medal.

There is a relatively short period of time to wait between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd degrees, but every EA can and is entitled to become a Master Mason. Becoming a Worshipful Master's a different thing, anyone can do that too, but they must show that they have learned their ritual, and understand the working of the Lodge fully. Nearly everyone does this anyway.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Also, I am 100% sure that some of the degrees outside the craft degrees are by invitation only.

There are indeed - but having said that, nearly everyone gets invited anyway. It's just a technicality, and like all clubs, it's more fun when there's more people, so it's in everyone's interest to invite as many as possible. Ideally, you'd want to be retired to take on the additional degrees/side orders. If you wanted to with the various Lodges around each province, you could be out every night of the week, and most people just don't have time to do that.

robroy1234

Bomb Bomber - you raise some pretty valid points, but here a few areas that I do take issue with. I visited the Grand Lodge of Italy a few years and they presented me with a fantastic book on Italian Freemasonry in English. I presented it to my lodge and invited any Brother to read it. The book goes into detail of the events during the rise of Mussolini and the crackdown on freemasonry. Many Italian freemasons like many throughout Europe during the second world war ended up in concentration camps or were executed. It also goes into detail about Gelli and the Propaganda Deux (P2) and their illegal activities. Gelli used blackmail, bullying, intimidation and bribery into forcing prominent men into that organisation. They were involved with certain banking irregularities with the Vatican bank and when a substantial amount of money went missing Roberto Calvi went on the run, and later found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge. As for the KKK and white supremist groups in the States, we are talking about a different kettle of fish. As I mentioned earlier - what we do outside of the lodge in our own free time, has nothing to do with the workings of the lodge. I can have any opinion on politics, medicine, philosophy, education, economics etc., these areas of interest have nothing to do with freemasonry and my opinions on these matters are not the opinion of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. We have Brothers who are politically right of centre, and some who are left of centre, we have Brothers who are catholic, protestant, jewish and muslim - none of these things matter in the lodge. So I if say to you that I believe that for medical reasons abortion should be acceptable - that is my own opinion and not the position of the Grand Lodge of Ireland or that of any other mason. In relation to the KKK I guess that you are referring to Albert Pike, but in fairness the KKK has a far more stronger link to the National Rifle Association than any other organisation. In fact they were formed by the same people at the same time in response to the same issues.

If there was any organisation or association in Ireland where political matters are discussed and decided upon by certain bankers, businessmen and politicians - then you will be looking at Golf Clubs, and not us. It has been revealed prior to the general election that Brian Cowen played Golf all day with Sean Fitzpatrick then the next day announces the bank guarantee scheme. Every other politician, businessman, banker seem to play Golf and have exclusive membership of clubs such as the K-club. So maybe we should all be looking at Golf clubs instead.

The crux of the problem that concerns us today, especially in relation to the catholic church was the material that was written by Leo Taxil in the 19th Century. Taxil was disgraced and removed from the masonic lodge in France and in spite he wrote a series of allegations against freemasonry, copied no less from the "confessions" and charges against the Templar Knights in 1307. Taxil was then endorsed by the Vatican, but was later found to be a fraud, even boasting publicly that he made everything up. The Vatican instead of retracting the material continued to push it forward and for the past 100 years made decisions based on these fraudulent documents.

enda1

Why do people fear it so much. Is it just cause you're not members? Just cause you are not certain of what they do?

I don't really "get" or understand bridge clubs. But if they wanna spend their Thursday evenings together playing cards then live and let live!
To me it seems like the adult version of the Scouts. Just a way of passing time with people that's not all about drinking down the pub or playing some sport...

robroy1234

Funny that you mention that we are like an adult version of the Scout. Robert Baden-Powel was an ardent freemason and he wanted to set up an organisation to instill the same moral and ethical structure as freemasonry, but not have it directly linked. Unlike the DeMolay International in the US which is directly linked to freemasonry. The off-shoots include the Cubs, the Brownies, the Girl Guides, and the Webelos. The names used in the cubs and scouts such as Arkala (Arkela) came from another notable freemason Rudyard Kipling in his story The Jungle Book.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

My point was that Jefferson's work was a reprint on Anderson's 1723 Constitution. Perhaps you could honestly share the significance of this constitution to Irish masonry?

Actually, your point was:

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It was intended for internal use within the lodges and was written by Master Mason Benjamin Franklin. I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part. The final straw was when Absolam said that Pike is a bit-part player within masonry.

Andersons Constitutions are historically significant for all Freemasons as they chart a portion of the course of the development of Freemasonry. They were used as a model for the original Book of Constitutions of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. And before you leap to any conclusions, the current Constitutions are published and freely available; you might want to buy a copy and compare them to Andersons Constitutions before you draw any inferences.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I "made up"MY CONCLUSIONS? Someone call RTE news, there is a guy thinking for himself coming to conclusions of his own.

Feel free to draw conclusions, just don't present them as facts.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

BTW you haven't cited a single source for your assertions yet.

What assertion?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK I'll put it another way. In your view why isn't Freemasonry a religion?

I suppose the shortest answer is; because it doesn't profess to be one.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And yet.more.obfuscation. "Hidden Doctrines" was not my term it was a quote from The Principles of Masonic Law by Bro. Albert G. Mackey (as stated!) Profane? My term? Nope, it's a masonic term which you undoubtedly know yourself already. On the contrary they are masonic terms used by masons. Why obfuscate?

Actually, these are terms believed by anti Masons to be used by Masons. This is not obfuscation; in over 20 years as a Freemason I've never heard a single Freemason use either term except when quoting an anti-Masonic writer. And I talk to quite a few Freemasons.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

To be fair by all accounts P-2 was a regular lodge. That's even how they came to be known as P-2. In an effort to organise the lodges the Grand Lodge of Italy had the regular lodges draw lots to see how they would be numbered, Lodge Propoganda drew lot two becoming P-2. Gelli and P-2 were only expelled after the police raid on Grand Master Lucio Gelli's home, long after the terrorist attacks in Milan and Paetano. Yes they are violent racists and they were founded by Freemasons and revived by Freemasons in their second even more violent and racist incarnation.

To avoid the same discussion all over again, I refer you to my last reply when you made that point:

Absolam wrote: »

I categorically dispute that P2 (as referred to) were Freemasons. A Propoganda Due Lodge operating under the Grand Orient of Italy existed from 1877, but the P2 Lodge founded by Gelli in 1966 had its warrant rescinded by GOI in 1974. The fact that he continued to use the name did not mean that he was a Freemason or that the lodge was Masonic; the Masonic Lodge was gone, and Gelli had been expelled from the Order. I would also say that, presuming the terrorism you refer to is the Bologna massacre in 1980, that the terrrorist act was at the time believed to be carried out by Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari, and that two members of P2 were convicted of slandering the investigation (not of participation in the act); and those convictions were later overturned. So whilst there's no doubt in my mind that P2 (non Masonic Lodge) was a fascist reactionary organisation, I don't think anyone has presented any evidence that they ever carried out any terrorist acts.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The Bavarian were very much real they were founded and run by a Freemason, Adam Weishaupt. They were very much subversive. I don't see what your argument is here. I'm not saying the Klan/Illuminati/P-2 are the same as regular masonry just that they are evidence of the dangers of freemasonry which is vulnerable to be used as a vehicle for these "violent racists" and so on. Freemasonry itself, imo is based on supremacism: the initiate over the profane and is shrouded in secrecy with a vast international network making it a natural target for infiltration.

So by your account Freemasonry is dangerous because it is vulnerable to infitration, despite being shrouded in secrecy? How exactly is Freemasonry based on supremacism? Who is supposed to be supreme over whom?

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

The names used in the cubs and scouts such as Arkala (Arkela) came from another notable freemason Rudyard Kipling in his story The Jungle Book.

Aha, the plot thickens. My masonic father-in-law named all his race horses after characters from the Jungle Book. He even owns the copyright to the name of one of them. Hmmmmm...

nullzero

Ok, so in an attempt to skip past the quote towers and unreadable text blocks, are we settled that according to the Freemasons on this thread that the organisation, as far as they know is essentially benign?

Absolam

A money making group.

Yep

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

nullzero wrote: »

Ok, so in an attempt to skip past the quote towers and unreadable text blocks, are we settled that according to the Freemasons on this thread that the organisation, as far as they know is essentially benign?

Benign? All conspiracy theories aside I personally don't consider it benign that that government ministers, judges, civil servants, members of the police force and so on will bow down before a masonic altar blindfolded and noosed like chubbs here.



and swear an oath of secrecy at risk of having their tongues pulled out and other nastiness to the one they will call Worshipful Master. In fact the thought of an elected head of state referring reverently to another as worshipful master is an affront to a free democracy. So there is no doubt when the blindfold is lifted they see some of their other brothers pointing knives and other weapons in their direction.

Absolam

A money making group.

OK, so according to the Freemasons on this thread the organisation as far as we know is essentially benign, and according to Brown Bomber it's an affront to democracy. There we have it.

nullzero

Absolam wrote: »

OK, so according to the Freemasons on this thread the organisation as far as we know is essentially benign, and according to Brown Bomber it's an affront to democracy. There we have it.

Ah right, so Brown Bomber continues to stand by his beliefs and the Freemasons here maintain that their organisation (the one they wouldn't want anyone to know was up to no good if it was) is benign.
I'm guessing that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

autonomy

I got black balled when I tried to join

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

nullzero wrote: »

Ah right, so Brown Bomber continues to stand by his beliefs and the Freemasons here maintain that their organisation (the one they wouldn't want anyone to know was up to no good if it was) is benign.
I'm guessing that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Why?

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - your local Golf Club may also be a benign place, but more politicians, businessmen, bankers etc., are members of golf clubs, go through a selection process for membership, and have no qualms about discussing deals and policies while on the green. If Brian Cowen met Sean Fitzpatrick the day before the bank guarantee scheme was announced in a lodge, then you would have something to go on about with your conspiracy theory. But, Cowen and Fitzpatrick are not and never have been freemasons and they met at a golf club. But, there has never been any uproar or protest against golf clubs, yet more goes on at these places then anywhere else.
In terms of our perceived political power, we are no more "connected" than any other group of people. In Mayo there is only one lodge in Ballina with a small group of members - are you suggesting that these fellas, some whom are farmers, have the whole of Mayo in their grasp and to force the people to vote for Enda Kenny.
A few years ago, long before I joined, I used to work for a government department in Dublin, and one of the most corrupt politicians of the time came from county Kerry. He was extremely generous to a very select group of people in Kerry - none of them were masons, they were all involved in the Horse racing/Stud business.
As for influence around the country, at local and national level you don't need to look any further than the GAA. The GAA in terms of sport funding gets the lion's share as well as Television rights and control of every county's sport partnership. In terms of sporting employment a GAA member would more likely to be employed in a county sport partnership then say a member of the athletic community, even if that athlete has higher qualifications and experience.
There is a tendency here to focus on us, as we are a small group of men and have no influence in manner which we are accused of. This is a distraction to the real issues and the people who are exerting undue influence in such matters.

enda1

nullzero wrote: »

Ah right, so Brown Bomber continues to stand by his beliefs and the Freemasons here maintain that their organisation (the one they wouldn't want anyone to know was up to no good if it was) is benign.
I'm guessing that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Doesn't sound so different to going to mass really. And they're all up to that too, the feckers!

robroy1234

Here is the constitution of the Abbeyfeale Golfing Society.

Abbeyfeale Golfing Society shall operate under the Rules of Amateur Status as laid down by the Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews.

So an ancient set of rules and regulations.

4.1 Application for Membership:
Any person who wishes to join Abbeyfeale Golfing Society must complete a Membership Form, available from the Secretary. This application form must be signed and dated by the applicant. A person duly granted membership shall be liable for their membership fee in accordance with Article 4.3 of this constitution.

4.3 Subscriptions of Members:
The annual subscription for membership of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society will be determined by the incoming Committee and communicated to members at the Annual General Meeting. The subscription rate(non refundable and non transferable) set at this meeting shall remain in force until the next Annual General Meeting except in the case of an Extra Ordinary General Meeting (EGM) convened in accordance with Section 9.2 of this constitution.The committee shall have the power to exclude the name of any person who has not paid their annual subscription for the current year from all prizes until such membership is paid in full.
No subscription is applicable in the case of Lifetime Membership of the Society.

Membership is determined by a committee and reliant on fees being paid.

4.4 Lifetime Membership

The Committee of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society reserve the right to confer Lifetime Membership on any person deemed suitable on approval by the majority of the committee.
Lifetime Membership shall entitle the holder to the same rights and privilege as a full member.

Special preferences made in a hierarchy.

5.0 Code of Conduct of Members.
The public profile of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society is beholden to the members.
The etiquette of the game of golf is of a high standard and the Society seeks to reach and exceed that etiquette.
In the event of any actions or words of a member of the Society bringing the Society into disrepute, a meeting of the Committee shall enquire into such conduct, and may request the member to attend at a committee meeting to discuss the matter.
In the event that the committee decides that the actions or words of any member brings the Society into disrepute the Committee reserve the right to suspend or expel the member from the Society.

6.0 Removal of Membership:
In the event that a player has been found, following investigation by the Committee, of an act bringing the Society into disrepute the Committee reserve the right to remove or suspend the membership privileges of that member. The members of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society will be informed of the reasons for the removal or suspension of any member from the Society.

7.0 Society Officers and Committee:
The Committee of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society shall consist of a minimum five (5), one of whom shall be the Captain of the Society.
The quorum for a meeting of the Committee is three (3) members,one of whom shall be the Captain,Vice-Captain or Secretary and two(2) Committee Member of the Society.
The positions of Captain,Vice-Captain, Secretary,Treasurer,Competition Secretary and Committee Members will be agreed and filled at the Annual General Meeting.

There is a bit more, but the point is that certain requirements for membership of other organisations follow the exact same methods. There is absolutely no difference between the Knights of St. Columba and Freemasonry, the only exception is that the Knights are fully endorsed by the Catholic Church.

hooradiation

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

In fact the thought of an elected head of state referring reverently to another as worshipful master is an affront to a free democracy.

I fail to see how.

nullzero

yekahS wrote: »

Why?

Why?
I'm still undecided to be honest. Why should I take the word of members of the Freemasons? Can I take it from the handful of Freemasons on this forum that every Freemason is a good honest person and that no groups of Freemasons have ever done anything wrong?

If some independent group did a comprehensive evaluation of all Freemasons and their finding proved the Freemasons here to be correct I'd accept it.
I don't think it's unfair for anyone to want more than the say so of members of the very organisation being discussed to prove it to be completely beyond reproach.