The Freemasons

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

Fair enough, charge withdrawn.

So I take it that you agree that freemasonry is a benign organisation, and a force for good?

The more I think about it the more open to the idea I am. Honestly, and this thread has been educational for me. There is still some conflicting ideas in my head and moreso relating to days gone by - specifically the prominent role it's played in anti-Church and anti-monarcy movements, even here in Ireland with the United Irishmen, the seemingly involvement in occult practices also makes me uncomfortable to tell the truth. Obviously I am in favour of a charity focused group which is based on self-improvement and raising personal morality. On the other hand all criminal enterprises need a credible front. Could the partially public face of masonry be a front? Improbable but not impossible I'd say. I don't doubt that you (or any other masons here) are honest people. However there are the groups of people who claim to be innocent - a) The innocent and b) the guilty. So I don't think it is unreasonable to not accept the unsupported word of a mason on masonry.

I do realise this puts you in a "damned if I do and damned if I don't" position but locked doors, secret knocks and the like lead to speculation and if these very same secrets and locked doors prevent the honest mason from divulging their actions, be they honest or not its a circle which will just revolve infinitely.

nullzero

yekahS wrote: »

You're still not answering the question.

I'll try and repeat it in a simpler way for you.

I understand that you don't want to accept that the freemasons on this thread are telling the truth. I'm not sure why, but you don't, fair enough.

Why would that then lead you to the conclusion that the truth about freemasonry lies somewhere between what the people who know what they are talking about say, and what BB says, that we are a racist, subversive terrorist organisation?

If you want me to make the question even more simple I can try.

What the hell are you talking about?
I never said that I don't want to believe what the Freemasons here are saying, you're putting words in my mouth, the bare faced cheek of you.

I have repeatedly stated that I have no agenda against the Freemasons and that from a purely logical perspective it's not good enough to take the word of a member of the Freemasons as proof that there is nothing wrong with the organisation.

You're just assuming that I want to believe the Freemasons are up to something, thats your problem.
I really don't appreciate you being so condescending towards me, as if I need your inane claptrap simplified.

If you had bothered to read what I have posted here on this subject instead of jumping to conclusions you'd have seen what I was getting at.

The truth I am sure lies somewhere in the middle of both of the arguments put forward here. I'm not jumping to conclusions myself, I've never said Freemasons are terrorists or institutionally racist.
You say I should take your word for it becasue you "know what you're talking about", but you're part of the organisation itself, you could concievably be covering yourself.

I'm really annoyed with you, how dare you make a fool of me, shame on you.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

hooradiation wrote: »

You claimed this is "an affront to a free democracy", the above does not explain the previous claim.

You seem to be making the mistake that if they refer to somoene as "Master" within a given context (this is assuming the original claim is true) then that extends to all contexts.

Would someone who refers to their partner as "Master" in the confines of the bedroom also be an affront to a free democracy if they were also a public servant or can you accept that people can and do compartmentalise their lives especially when it comes to the professional and private?

Dear me. For a start the original claim is true, Worshipful Master is the correct term. Next, what context would you think that referring to someone as "master" who is at the very top of the (localised) hierarchy is in?

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

nullzero wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about?
I never said that I don't want to believe what the Freemasons here are saying, you're putting words in my mouth, the bare faced cheek of you.

I have repeatedly stated that I have no agenda against the Freemasons and that from a purely logical perspective it's not good enough to take the word of a member of the Freemasons as proof that there is nothing wrong with the organisation.

You're just assuming that I want to believe the Freemasons are up to something, thats your problem.
I really don't appreciate you being so condescending towards me, as if I need your inane claptrap simplified.

If you had bothered to read what I have posted here on this subject instead of jumping to conclusions you'd have seen what I was getting at.

The truth I am sure lies somewhere in the middle of both of the arguments put forward here. I'm not jumping to conclusions myself, I've never said Freemasons are terrorists or institutionally racist.
You say I should take your word for it becasue you "know what you're talking about", but you're part of the organisation itself, you could concievably be covering yourself.

I'm really annoyed with you, how dare you make a fool of me, shame on you.

No one else can make a fool out of you. That's something a person does to themselves.

I still don't understand your insistence that the truth probably lies 'somewhere in the middle'. I am trying to figure out what you find convincing that would lead you to believe the truth lies in the middle, rather than just being honest and admitting you haven't a notion.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

There is a tendency here to focus on us, as we are a small group of men and have no influence in manner which we are accused of. This is a distraction to the real issues and the people who are exerting undue influence in such matters.

This I actually agree with, or am close to agreeing with. I think it is quite likely that masons have been made scapegoats throughout history and have had the spotlight shone onto them by the real criminals at various points. I do take your golf club analogy on board, it is a valid point and I actually don't want you to "admit" to anything, just be as honest as possible within the confines of your oaths and obligations. I must say it's interesting talking to masons, about masonry at least.

nullzero

yekahS wrote: »

No one else can make a fool out of you. That's something a person does to themselves.

I still don't understand your insistence that the truth probably lies 'somewhere in the middle'. I am trying to figure out what you find convincing that would lead you to believe the truth lies in the middle, rather than just being honest and admitting you haven't a notion.

I don't have a notion?
Fair enough, lets say I don't, why should I take the word of a Freemason when they say the Freemasons are completely above board?
Can you not see how simply accepting one side of the argument doesn't add up to a logical conclusion?

Lets say hypothetically that you and all the Freemasons here are involved in all sorts of sordid affairs thanks to your membership of the Freemasons, why would any of you come onto this forum and admit to it?
Surely you would as members of the Freemasons be duty bound to not reveal these secrets.

I'm not pointing fingers or making accusations, I'm simply stating a simple fact.

You have put words in my mouth and misrepresented me and your tone has been disrespectful and insulting, I have a right to take grievance with that.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

No one else can make a fool out of you. That's something a person does to themselves.

I still don't understand your insistence that the truth probably lies 'somewhere in the middle'. I am trying to figure out what you find convincing that would lead you to believe the truth lies in the middle, rather than just being honest and admitting you haven't a notion.

Yekahs it's not just non-masons that makes these claims. Many ex-masons who were far more qualified to speak than you on masonry have made similar and far worse claims. Read some of John Robison, David Bernard and Avery Allen for example. Another example would be that the anti-masonic party, the first "third-party" in the US were founded by an ex mason.

squod

A group to make contacts.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Oh FFS, you're posting in these threads long enough to know they've nothing to do with us. Anyone can use the word Lodge. Lots of B&B's do around the country.

So you say. Remember it wasn't until I started asking similar questions in the last thread that I got any kind of reasonable answer. So just to clarify again, no link. That right?

Dude111

The puppets

I accidently voted the wrong option!!

I think they are a group of ppl who dont like being trapped in the prison they are in and they try to live outside it in a peaceful way.....

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Dude111 wrote: »

I accidently voted the wrong option!!

I think they are a group of ppl who dont like being trapped in the prison they are in and they try to live outside it in a peaceful way.....

Unless you are a mason yourself it is you who is locked outside the masonic world not the other way round.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

[SIZE=+2]This is an example of an initiation ceremony into Witchcraft and is remarkably similar to the Entered Apprentice initiation.

I've changed text to red the highlight the similarities and numbered them.

Most of the similarities are approximate but close enough to be significant. For example, masons tie the towline around the initiates kneck three times whereas witches the cord around the initiates ankle and wrists or mason initiates have their chest pierced by a compass while the in the witchcraft example below the initiate has their finger pierced with a needle..

Coven Initiation[/SIZE]


Note: This is a strict example of a coven initiation. Many covens vary in initiation rites and there are many forms and variations. This should be considered and example.


1.Candidates for initiation should be in good mental and physical health. 2.They should also be of legal age and 3.sought out the Craft of their own free will.



Before being accepted into the Coven (s)he should spend sometime learning about the Craft and magic and such. (S)he should know about practices that most people get uptight about. She should be told that initiations are perfectly safe and voluntary. Also, if at any time prior to taking the oath she wants to back out, she can do so with out fear or other recriminations.



The candidate must chose a Craft name. This name should not be a common American name and must have personal meaning to the candidate. Traditionally the apprenticeship lasted for a year and a day.
This is a good idea if it can be done. 4.Before (s)he can be initiated, the Coven must vote. 5.A single no is sufficient to not allow the candidate to be initiated into that particular Coven.



This ritual is written for use in the woods. There has to be a path leading from the staging area to a clearing where afire can be lit. To save time, the fire should be setup but not lighted. The bathtub should be set up along the path and filled with warm water and the other ingredients. The water will also have to be consecrated.



The candidate should be brought to the staging area by 6.their sponsor. She should be wearing clothing that can be cutaway easily by a sword without undoing buttons or stepping out of pants legs. The candidate should be lead down the path by the sponsor.After a little ways a member of the Coven, the Challenger,should step onto the path. They might want to wear a mask. They take the sword that they carry and say:
"Who comes to the gate?"
The candidate, coached before hand, answers:
"It is I, (new Craft name), child of earth and starry heaven."
Challenger:
"Who speaks for you?"
Sponsor:
"It is I, ________ , who vouches for her."
The Challenger holds the point of the sword up to the candidates heart, and says:
"You are about to enter a vortex of power, a place beyond imagining,where birth and death,dark and light, joy and pain, meet and make one. You are about to step between the worlds, beyond time, outside the realm of your human life. You who stands on the threshold of the dread Mighty Ones, have you the courage to make the essay? For know it is better to fall on my blade and perish than to make the attempt with fear in thy heart!"
The apprentice answers:
"I tread the path with perfect love and perfect trust."
The Challenger replies:

"Prepare for 7.death and rebirth."
And the Challenger takes the sword and cuts off the apprentices clothing till (s)he is standing naked. The Challenger grounds their sword to the Earth. The Challenger should then 8.blindfold the candidate and 17. tie a cord around their wrists and one ankle while saying:

"And (s)he was bound as all living things must be, who would enter the Kingdom of Death. And Her feet were neither bound nor free."
The candidate is led to the tub and bathed, while still blindfolded, by the rest of the Coven. While being bathed, (s)he must remain quiet. She is helped from the tub and dried off. The candidate is then carried to the Circle. Everyone in the Coven, starting with the High Priest (Priestess in the case of a man), kisses her and says:
"Thus are all first brought into the world, and thus are all first brought into the Coven."
The High Priest (Priestess in case of a man) now leads the candidate to each of the four corners and introduces her to the Guardians, of course going deosil.
"Hail Guardians of the Watchtowers of the East and all the Mighty Ones of the Craft. Behold _________(new name), who will now be made Priestess and Witch."
The candidate is brought back to 9. the altar. 10. The High Priest kneels and gives her the Five Fold Kiss; that is, he kisses her on both feet, both knees, womb, both breasts, and the lips,starting with the right of each pair. He says, as he does this:
"Blessed be thy feet, that have brought thee in these ways.
Blessed be thy knees, that shall kneel at the sacred altar.
Blessed be thy womb, without which we would not be.
Blessed be thy breasts, formed in beauty.
Blessed be thy lips, that shall utter the Sacred Names."
For the kiss on the lips, they embrace, length-to-length, with their feet touching each others. When he reaches the womb, she spreads her arms wide, and the same after the kiss on the lips.The candidate is then measured with the other piece of cord, from head to toe. The cord is cut. She is then measured around the head and chest and knots are tied to mark these lengths.The High Priestess rolls up the cord, and asks the candidate:
11 "Are you willing to swear the oath?"
The candidate answers: "I am."
The High Priestess asks:
"Are you willing to suffer to learn?"
The candidate answers: "Yes."
The High Priestess takes the apprentice's hand, and with 11. a needle properly purified by fire and water, pricks her finger,squeezing a few drops out onto the measure. The candidate then 12. kneels, and places one hand on her head and the other beneath her heel and she repeats what is read to her. The High Priest says:
"This is the Charge of the Coven:
13. That I will keep secret what I am asked to keep secret, and never divulge the names or dwelling places of our people unless by their consent.


That I will learn and try to master the Art Magical; but ever remember the rune: "What good be the tools without the 14. inner light? What good be magic without wisdom sight?"
That in due course I will strive to find a worthy pupil in magic,to whom in future years I can hand down the knowledge I acquire.
That I will never use the Art Magical merely to impress foolish persons, nor for any wrongful end.
15. That I will help the Craft of the Wise, and hold it's honor as I would my own.
That I consider these vows taken before the Elder Gods; and that if I betray this Charge I accept as my just reward that retribution of destiny which overtakes those who basely betray the trust and confidence that others have placed in them. Know that none can escape the fate, be it curse or blessing, which they make for themselves, either in this life or in another life.
The High Priestess says:
"Repeat after me: 'I, ________, do of my own free will most solemnly swear to protect, help and defend my sisters and brothers of the Art and to keep the Coven's Charge.
I always keep secret all that must not be revealed.
This do I swear on my mother's womb and my hopes of future lives, mindful that my measurehas been taken, andin the presence of the Mighty Ones.'
All between my two hands belongs to the Goddess."
The candidate repeats the oath. The Coven shouts:
16. "So mote it be!"
The High Priest says:
"Arise and be anointed"
The High Priest then makes an X mark on the initiates forehead,breast and genitals while saying:
"May your mind be free. May your heart be free. May your body be free.
I give you the Craft name of ______"
The rest of the Coven members grab her suddenly, lift her if possible and carry her three times around the Circle, laughing and shrieking. They then lay her face down before the altar and press her into the ground. Gradually the pressure changes to stroking. They chant her new name, raising a Cone of Power over her. The blind fold is removed and (s)he is told:
"Know that the hands that have touched you are the hands of love. Thus are all first brought into the world, and thus are all first brought into the Coven."
The Charge of the Goddess is spoken and any other myths, mysteries, and secrets are revealed. She is also told the Coven names of all the members. The High Priestess returns the measure, saying:
"In the Burning Times, when each member of the Coven held the lives of the others in their hands, this would have been kept and be used against you should you endanger the others. But in these more fortunate times, love and trust prevail, so take this, keep it or burn it, and be free to go or to stay as your heart leads you."
The service goes on as usual, be it New or Full Moon or Sabbat. Before the Circle is opened, the new initiate is taken to the four corners again and introduced to the Guardians again.
© Starhawk; "The Spiral Dance: Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of t h e Goddess"; HarperRow 1979 Valiente, Doreen; "Witchcraft for Tomorrow"; Phoenix Publishing 1985

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

[SIZE=+2][/SIZE]
16. "So mote it be!"

I should clarify this term is used by the witches is a masonic term. According to Masonicworld.com " No Lodge is ever opened or closed, in due form, without using it."
http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artoct02/so_mote_it_be.htm

Absolam

A money making group.

Sooo... an initiation into a (from your text) female organisation for putative witches has commonalities with an initiation into a male organisation of freemasons. Insofar as they are both initiations, I suspect they will share those commonalities with many other initiations? Since they are, and I don't hesitate to use the word again... initiations. So what point are you making, Freemasons are like witches?

I take issue with a couple of points you've made; Freemasons do not tie the towline around the initiates kneck three times nor do mason initiates have their chest pierced by a compass. Not in Irish Freemasonry anyway, nor in any other Masonic initiation I've seen.

Thanks for the MasonicWorld link; some nice graphics on the site

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Sooo... an initiation into a (from your text) female organisation for putative witches has commonalities with an initiation into a male organisation of freemasons. Insofar as they are both initiations, I suspect they will share those commonalities with many other initiations? Since they are, and I don't hesitate to use the word again... initiations. So what point are you making, Freemasons are like witches?

My Confirmation was an initation. I didn't have to take any secrecy vows or enter the church blindfolded. And freemasons are like witches in the sense that they dabble in the occult.

Here is another religious ritual that both the Entered Apprentice and the Witchcraft initiation are remarkably close to - Mormonism, started by...surprise, surprise a Freemason, Joseph Smith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKG5kMnZZcM

Absolam wrote: »

I take issue with a couple of points you've made; Freemasons do not tie the towline around the initiates kneck three times

According to the Irish Ritual of Craft Freemasonry as Worked Under Warrant of the Grand Lodge pg 8 the cable-tow is wrapped around the Entered Apprentice three times. http://books.google.se/books?id=oZt9rIaq3psC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=lesser+lights+grand+lodge+of+ireland&source=bl&ots=eYLxGmdOzG&sig=z4S4z_e5abh93m4voCvJDUguMEk&hl=sv&ei=6fUFTobCLIrFswbhws2dDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tow&f=false

THE CABLETOW IN FREEMASONRY The halter's first appearance in Freemasonry is in a document known as the DUMFRIES No. 4 MANUSCRIPT which dates to about 1710. The reference is in two questions in the catechism: Q: Hou were you brought in A: Shamefully wt a rope about my neck Q: Whay a rop about your neck A: To hang me if I should Betry my trust We may note, in passing, that the penalty for improper disclosure at the dawn of the Grand Lodge era was quite different from ours. But, in terms of our subject of interest, if the Fraternity could assume the right to hang a man for improper disclosure, if it were able to take a member's life, it could only do so - then, as now - if the member gave that right! And so, the Cabletow still retained its symbolism as a token of submission. As far as I am aware, the Cabletow is part of the preparation of every Freemason in the world and in every ritual it carries a connotation of submission, of humility, of servitude.

Condensed from an article by

Bro. John Alexander
http://masonicfax.net/cabletow.htm

Absolam wrote: »

nor do mason initiates have their chest pierced by a compass. Not in Irish Freemasonry anyway, nor in any other Masonic initiation I've seen.

Here is apparent video evidence of an enterered apprentice ceremony in Turkey where the compass is substituted by the sword.

(I'd actually be interested on your take on the first section. The second footage is obviously suspect)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TTnmMd7SOY

SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE FREEMASONRY OF THE 1830s
and
THE MORMON ENDOWMENT (pre-1940)
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/mason-endow.htm

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - I like many Masons do not pretend nor state that we are perfect, or the lodge, or freemasonry in general is a perfect organisation. We do try to be better men, this is vastly different from being perfect men. We use the tools of the operative Mason to guide us and teach us to be better, but as in everything in life - perfection is not really a human trait.
We have to honest and upfront with many aspects, this not only refers to freemasonry but to every other areas of society. The Catholic Church here in Ireland has been struggling for the past few years with scandals and the after effects of the abuses committed. Our banks and politicians have been far from honest and upfront with their behaviour and certain practices. As you are aware there are more pressing issues affecting Ireland than a witchhunt against an organisation that has done more for Ireland than the detractors harp on about. Here in Mayo, there is a place called Foxford. This place not only famous for Admiral Brown, but also for the Woollen Mill. The textiles once produced was famous worldwide, the mill started by a Nun, and fnding no support from the Diocese approached a freemason from Enniskillen. He provided finance and practical advice as well as travelling to Foxford to get the process moving. A look around the former mill building, the National School and Catholic Church nearby you can easily spot the Masonic symbols dotted about the place.

hooradiation

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Dear me. For a start the original claim is true, Worshipful Master is the correct term. Next, what context would you think that referring to someone as "master" who is at the very top of the (localised) hierarchy is in?

Doesn't matter.
You said that a public servant calling someone else master is "an affront to a free democracy".
I am now trying to find out if you're consistent in this belief or if it's just a case of it's wrong simply because you believe that masons do it.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

My Confirmation was an initation. I didn't have to take any secrecy vows or enter the church blindfolded. And freemasons are like witches in the sense that they dabble in the occult.

Actually, your confirmation was a confirmation. Your baptism was your initiation into the Christian cult; are you saying your christian initiation wasn't a proper one because you didn't take secrecy vows and enter the church blindfolded, or that Masonic initiations aren't proper initiations because they're not like Christian ones? Whilst I accept that some people who believe they are witches believe they dabble in the occult, I challenge you to provide any evidence whatsoever the Freemasonry dabbles in the occult. And to forestall the obvious, the fact that occultists such as Alastair Crowley were also Freemasons is no evidence; lots of accountants are Freemasons but that doesn't make the Chartered Accountants of Ireland a Masonic organisation, nor does it mean that the Grand Lodge of Ireland can do your taxes.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Here is another religious ritual that both the Entered Apprentice and the Witchcraft initiation are remarkably close to - Mormonism, started by...surprise, surprise a Freemason, Joseph Smith.

One of the founders of Mormonism was a Freemason. Would it not be more surprising if the rituals he created didn't contain elements from Freemasonry?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

According to the Irish Ritual of Craft Freemasonry as Worked Under Warrant of the Grand Lodge pg 8 the cable-tow is wrapped around the Entered Apprentice three times.

This seems to be from a book supposedly printed in 1957? The short answer is; this is not current Masonic ritual. I doubt it was in 1957 either, but I wasn't around then so I wouldn't presume to say. Either way, you're changing the wording from your original statement:

Brown Bomber wrote: »

masons tie the towline around the initiates kneck three times (sic) mason initiates have their chest pierced by a compass

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Here is apparent video evidence of an enterered apprentice ceremony in Turkey where the compass is substituted by the sword. (I'd actually be interested on your take on the first section. The second footage is obviously suspect)

It all looks a bit suspect to me. The Grand Lodge of Turkey was recognised by the Grand Lodge of Ireland in 1970, so I would expect their ritual to be reasonably regular. There's very little in this video that is familiar to me, so I personally would be cautious of it. But at least no one is being pierced by a compass in it, eh?

I'm really not sure of the point you're trying to make with your post? That Freemasonry appears in all sorts of things in life is obvious, you'll find references in literature, movies, schools, hospitals, as many places as you might look really. Many organisations and groups borrow from Freemasonry, or are Masonically styled; there's a wealth of information (and misinformation) available to anyone who cares to look, as you yourself have discovered, and there's plenty of people who'll use or abuse that mis/information, as it suits them. A lot of Freemasons are happy to share what we think is suitable with people who are genuinely interested in the Order. We don't seek to obfuscate, or misdirect, or mislead, because we are genuinely interested in helping people understand a fraternity that we thoroughly enjoy and are proud of being a part of. After all, we're not a secret society!

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - You mention earlier that the cable toe goes round the initiate's neck three times - No. This is not at all true, even the picture you posted earlier shows this. As for the sword - only one person carries the sword in the Lodge and it is never used for entry of an initiate. If you were a freemason you would know that and wouldn't have to draw such misinformation from unreliable sources. You could have asked one of us and got a straight answer, albeit we won't tell you the passwords etc., in the same way as I won't give you my athletics club membership number. Nothing dodgy, just that one's membership is personal to each to his own.

Now as for confirmation, holy communion and baptism, firstly I was blessed for being ugly enough as to not to attract the unwanted attention of the priest, and for the first two you are forgetting one highly important fact - Baptism and Holy Communion - is done not through free will and accord. You are Baptised without you will and knowledge when as a baby, and go through Holy Communion as "Rite of Passage" in the school system, again without your full own will. At least with Confirmation you are given some choice. But, on the whole the practice of catholicism is blind obedience to the Pope, and the Church.

I can probably safely assume that we have all gone through this system so pretty much know full well of growing up Roman Catholic. However the choice of becoming a freemason is one of free will and accord, so that a man cannot be coerced and forced into freemasonry.

As for the witchcraft stuff - I am pretty much interested in that stuff, especially that I was raised part of my life in England, not far from where the last witch in England was burnt at the stake (Dedham, near Colchester) The witchfinder General did most of his hunting around the Manningtree area and had his headquarters in Colchester as well. According to the Malleus Maleficarum the priesthood were taught to look for redheads and left handed people - Well I am well and truly fecked...
Also hunted were midwives, and most whom were tortured and killed were women. But, then look who were the practitioners of the occult in terms of Alchemy - Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle etc., men...

But, as for the actual practice of the occult - methinks not., I doubt very much that we could call up the devil as for most of the time we don't even get the words right...and at worse forget some of the ritual -I've done that and didn't remember until the meeting was over.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

I haven't got the energy here to respond to your points individually now as it's 2 am here but I would like to say this. I apologise if I have offended any of you, I genuinely don't mean to, you all seem like decent lads. I just wanted to make clear that I don't see masonry as some kind of arch-nemesis. My interest as I've said comes from curiousity, not just because of the secrets, though I think there is a natural inclination to want to know just because it is a secret. The curiosity comes from masonry's real or otherwise history from the antiquities to the Templars/Rosicrucians to the House of Rothschild and the European monarchies to today and all that's in between. The connections to the occult and Jewish mysticism and the like just adds an extra layer of intrigue compounded the exhibitions of masonic power today in corporate logos, architecture, Hollywood etc. I'd be just as interested in it if it was pure fiction to be honest. I don't look for freemasons under my bed at night, I don't view them as an enemy in any respect. I mean it's not freemasons who are dropping bombs on innocent people in Libya as I speak. I have no interest in being critical of masons beyond a Conspiracy Theory forum, if it so happened that I was sitting next to you on a plane tomorrow and I noticed your masonic lapel I wouldn't think any different of you. In many way I suppose I was just playing devil's advocate which is not worth it if it causes offense as it's just an excercise in imagination for my own entertainment.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

hooradiation wrote: »

Doesn't matter.
You said that a public servant calling someone else master is "an affront to a free democracy".
I am now trying to find out if you're consistent in this belief or if it's just a case of it's wrong simply because you believe that masons do it.

Sort it out lad. First you say the use of the term master depends on the context. I tell you the context and now the context "doesn't matter". Make your mind up.

robroy1234

Bomb Bomber - Everyone loves a mystery. They are fun to research and look into and give people like us an interest and somewhere to visit on holiday. When the wife treated me to a trip to Carcassone I few years, I got to indulge in two of my passions - 1. the Carcassone half-marathon was that weekend and I ran finishing 6th. 2. the tour of the mysterious Cathar country including the visit to Rennes-Les-Chatteau. Rennes-Les-Chatteau was quite a bit disappointing as to getting there. The train journey wasn't too bad but the lack of taxis and public transport to Rennes itself meant that we had a long, tiring walk to the place. In all the mystery of the place is far greater than the place itself. If people are looking at some sort of esoteric, meaning to freemasonry, like a kind of "philosophers stone" of enlightenment, then they will be disappointed. The secrets, teachings etc., are all to do with improving oneself, and the tools of masonry are symbolic of how to improve yourself.

I am aware that there are few websites that have posted our passwords, signs, phrases - with the belief in that in doing so it removes the veil of secrecy. They state that once the words and signs are out in the open that we will no longer be a such society, and that the mystic tie is no longer valid. But, they do not realise the most important, fundamental fact about freemasonry, and that is the Mystic Tie is not a word, not a phrase, not a sign, it is none of those things....it is the bond of friendship between brethren.

hooradiation

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Sort it out lad. First you say the use of the term master depends on the context. I tell you the context and now the context "doesn't matter". Make your mind up.

You seem to be confused, I'm sorry if this is proving difficult to follow. Allow me to try and clear this up for you.
You claimed that a public servant referring to another person to 'Master' was an affront to a free democracy.

I am asking if you hold that to be always true, regardless of the context. If they're a free mason or someone who dabbles in role-play in the bedroom or anything else.

I hope this has made things clearer for you.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

hooradiation wrote: »

You seem to be confused, I'm sorry if this is proving difficult to follow. Allow me to try and clear this up for you.
You claimed that a public servant referring to another person to 'Master' was an affront to a free democracy.

I am asking if you hold that to be always true, regardless of the context. If they're a free mason or someone who dabbles in role-play in the bedroom or anything else.

I hope this has made things clearer for you.

Your example was an clear example of a false comparison.

Fantasy (dominatrix roleplay) vs reality (the masonic Worshipful master). The example of the politician roleplaying with his "master" (even then he is subservient within his role) is no more pertinent than the fictional character of Baldrick calling the fictional character of Blackadder "master" to Tony Robinson's real life.

A better example would be the Kung-Fu master.

I hope this has made things clearer for you.

hooradiation

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Your example was an clear example of a false comparison.

Not really. It's intentionally different your mason scenario for the simple reason that I'm trying to find out if you have any consistency on this stance at all.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Fantasy (dominatrix roleplay) vs reality (the masonic Worshipful master). The example of the politician roleplaying with his "master" (even then he is subservient within his role) is no more pertinent than the fictional character of Baldrick calling the fictional character of Blackadder "master" to Tony Robinson's real life.

A better example would be the Kung-Fu master.

I hope this has made things clearer for you.

So, you only find it an affront to a free democracy when a mason does it? Is that what i'm meant to be taking from this?

And as an aside i didn't use the "kung-fu master" example because sensei usually translates as teacher rather than master.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

hooradiation wrote: »

Not really. It's intentionally different your mason scenario for the simple reason that I'm trying to find out if you have any consistency on this stance at all. .

You expect to test for consistency by posing two polar opposite scenarios? Doesn't make any sense.

hooradiation wrote: »

So, you only find it an affront to a free democracy when a mason does it? Is that what i'm meant to be taking from this?.

Nope. Not at all. Nothing to do with masonry per se. Everything to do with a head of state kneeling before a masonic altar behind closed doors swearing a blood oath of secrecy to an organisation.

The Worshipful Master is one of the three lesser lights of Masonry. These lights would be shining on the altar whilst our hypothetical Taoiseach is kneeling before the altar accepting his secret masonic obligations. I could be a little off here on the other two but the Worshipful Master is one of the three lesser lights. I think the other two are the sun and the moon, regardless they are pagan/masonic objects of worship and the Worshipful Master is one of the three. How you can compare this to sex games is beyond me.

hooradiation wrote: »

And as an aside i didn't use the "kung-fu master" example because sensei usually translates as teacher rather than master.

In my face. But you know what I mean. Substitute kung-fu master for chess master then i.e. somebody who is really ****ing good at a certain discipline rather than someone who has formal control over someone. It doesn't make them an actual master over somebody though (like the masonic worshipful master) - Similarly Elvis wasn't a real king and Michael Jackson wasn't a real prince for example.

Look, we could've saved all this fannying around if you had've read my post properly.

In fact the thought of an elected head of state referring reverently to another as worshipful master is an affront to a free democracy.

(I'm aware that "master" is an ambiguous term - masterchef, masterclass etc)

hooradiation

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You expect to test for consistency by posing two polar opposite scenarios? Doesn't make any sense.

But they're not polar opposite, they both involve submitting to another and referring to them as master. The test was to see if a public servant committing such an act of prostration in and of itself was, as you put it, affront to a free democracy or was it something else.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Nope. Not at all. Nothing to do with masonry per se. Everything to do with a head of state kneeling before a masonic altar behind closed doors swearing a blood oath of secrecy to an organisation.

So is it the secrecy then? That public servants, in your opinion, ought not to be involved in any organisation that keeps it's business secret?

Would it therefore be unacceptable to you that a public servant would be or have been a member of alcoholics anonymous or any other organisation that works on that model?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Look, we could've saved all this fannying around if you had've read my post properly.

The problem i have with that post is that i think you're being inconsistent when you claim that certain actions are an affront to a free democracy. Maybe you're not, but this 'fannying around' hasn't helped clear this up.

Absolam

A money making group.

Perhaps I can help to clarify some of this, if not to everyones satisfaction:

1) Everything to do with a head of state kneeling before a masonic altar behind closed doors swearing a blood oath of secrecy to an organisation.

All Freemasons take an oath of secrecy, regardless of their position in life outside of Freemasonry. Equally, the oath does not affect their position in life outside of Freemasonry.


2)regardless they are pagan/masonic objects of worship and the Worshipful Master is one of the three.

I think you're really getting off your point here, as it has nothing to do with who calls who what, but to clarify what you're thinking; there are no Masonic objects of worship. There are no objects of worship in a Masonic Lodge. A bible/torah/quran/whatever you're having yourself is always present, but is not worshipped. Each Mason is encouraged to worship his own god as is appropriate to him. The term Worshipful Master does not mean a Master who is Worshipped, Worshipful is an old fashioned honorific (many town Mayors in England are still called The Worshipful Mayor), and denotes the Master Mason who currently has the honour of presiding over Lodge business.


3) the thought of an elected head of state referring reverently to another as worshipful master is an affront to a free democracy

This is obviously your original point; but I would put this to you; the right to free speech is a cornerstone of a free democracy. If an elected head of state could not refer reverently to another as worshipful master should he so choose, then that, to my mind, would be indicative of the absence of a free democracy.

Richard tea

A group to make contacts.

Well done on de-railing a thread hooradiation.

BB, keep up the good posts:)

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Richard tea wrote: »

Well done on de-railing a thread hooradiation.

BB, keep up the good posts:)

Cheers Richard

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

hooradiation wrote: »

But they're not polar opposite, they both involve submitting to another and referring to them as master. The test was to see if a public servant committing such an act of prostration in and of itself was, as you put it, affront to a free democracy or was it something else.

It was polar opposites. Fantasy vs Real life.

= Hypothetical Masonic Master Mason = Real Life

= Hypothethetical sex games = Fantasy

hooradiation wrote: »

So is it the secrecy then? That public servants, in your opinion, ought not to be involved in any organisation that keeps it's business secret?

Would it therefore be unacceptable to you that a public servant would be or have been a member of alcoholics anonymous or any other organisation that works on that model?

Of course not. The AA example is another false comparison. Look I don't know what to say to you here if you can't differentiate between AA and the Freemasons.

hooradiation wrote: »

The problem i have with that post is that i think you're being inconsistent when you claim that certain actions are an affront to a free democracy. Maybe you're not, but this 'fannying around' hasn't helped clear this up.

I really don't get where you are coming from. Of course unrelated incidents can or can't be an affront to democracy it depends on their own individual merits. Just because a word is common in two seperate scenarios it doesn't mean they automatically have the same results. I would suggest we both have our wires crossed here somewhere.