WIT University

Roanmore

Just read a discussion on another website (link below) which says Mary Hanafin is set to refuse University status for WIT. Just wondering if this is a definite decision or whether it's just rehashed, the thread was only started today.

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=31636

willy84k

i heard shes claiming there enough 3rd level entries with in university's from the south east as to not need a university!!!i think it should be upgraded its got the facilities

mike65

Business and Finance guru Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev spoke about the ambition for a university here

Mike.

fricatus

mike65 wrote: »

Business and Finance guru Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev spoke about the ambition for a university here

Mike.

Hardly surprising since he works for UCD and is a Research Associate in Trinity.

Likewise Hanafin...with two of the country's seven universities in south Dublin, she's hardly going to want to upset her constituents and share the cake with the culchies.

I always found it galling that the greater Dublin area, with 1.5 million people*, has four universities**, whereas the rest of the country, with 2.5 milllion people, has three.

*Dublin city and county: 1 million people, three universities. Outside Dublin, 3 million people, four universities, if you don't consider Maynooth a Dublin university.
** I include Maynooth because it's on a Dublin Bus route

Paddy@CIRL

When we had problems with the College last year (No printers working at all), we were told by Professor Byrne that if we had University status, we wouldn't have these problems.

To me thats the biggest load of horlix ever. They are blaming all their problems on not being a University, if they can't operate as an I.T. they have no hope of being a successful University.

mike65

Quality contribution there!

Mike.

meldrew

The minister is sitting on the Port report since last year which if it was negative towards the upgrading would have been published months ago , she definitely seems to have it in for the people of the south east alright , the main reason coming from government seems to be if they upgrade wit they'll have to upgrade all the other ITs which is a weak argument

Sully

No problem posting the link as long as the sites okay

Nolanger

Always wondered why Waterford NEEDS a University - is it a plan to finally stop young middle-class people from leaving that city?
If there was to be a Uni in the SE of this country is the Cork Road with its industrial and social housing estates the ideal location?
What I'm saying is that maybe the image of the city needs to improve before it's granted a Uni.

stick-dan

How many people who have posted here wanting WIT to become a university have no direct involvement of previous involvement with Waterford IT? I would reckon that the number would be fairly low.I'm a fellow student studying in WIT and would love for it to be granted university status to give me an even better looking degree but who are we all kidding. The only reason we are all complaining and campaigning for it to be granted University status is because we all want better qualifications leaving there. If we are being realistic about the whole situation WIT is nowhere near good enough to be granted university status. Paddy@CIRL said that

When we had problems with the College last year (No printers working at all), we were told by Professor Byrne that if we had University status, we wouldn't have these problems.

To me thats the biggest load of horlix ever. They are blaming all their problems on not being a University, if they can't operate as an I.T. they have no hope of being a successful University.

and i have to agree.The people in WIT blame everything that goes wrong on the fact that they are not a university. How would WIT being a university have made the printers not fail when they did. Load of B****x.The administration running WIT cannot even organize properly. They absolutely made a mockery of the January examinations but although we have been "assured" that it will not happen again it should never have happened in the first place. In my opinion which will no doubt be met with opposition, Until WIT can function properly and adequately as an IT it has no chance or right to try and become a university.

Sully

While I agree with your points, thats not why the minister is refusing the application. Shes looking for any excuse to do so, and keeps stalling. We wont get Uni while Final Fail are in government. Vote with your feet - get rid of the corupt goverment we have running this country.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

Always wondered why Waterford NEEDS a University - is it a plan to finally stop young middle-class people from leaving that city?
If there was to be a Uni in the SE of this country is the Cork Road with its industrial and social housing estates the ideal location?
What I'm saying is that maybe the image of the city needs to improve before it's granted a Uni.

- To offer parity of educational opportunities to Waterford and the South East.
- To offer parity of educational investment to Waterford and the South East.
- To support the National Spatial Strategy, where Waterford must serve the same regional function as Cork, Limerick and Galway.
- To offer a level playing field in attracting foreign direct investment and high tech. industry.
- To offer non-technical degrees.
- To make third and fourth level education more accessible to the people of Waterford and the South East.
- To address socio-economic deficits extant in Waterford and the South East, including a lower than average number of degree holders in the region, lower than average incomes, less and lesser quality FDI into the region, by far the lowest number of business start-ups of the five cities, less employment opportunities, less tertiary investment, and so on.

And yes, if it halts the 'brain drain' or the glut of young middle class people leaving the city, all the better! Not only are they leaving, but their mammies and daddies are subsidising landlords, universities (capitation fees) and small business in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Dublin for 4 years, as if the economies of those cities weren't doing well enough as it was with the combined investment of a university, an IT and whatever private sector investment is brought along with them.

The WIT has three campuses (that I know of): the main campus on the Cork rd., the College st. campus and the new Carriganore west campus. All new buildings will be built in Carriganore. As to the Cork rd.'s location, DCU is built in the same sort of area, and nobody is saying it shouldn't be a university because of it. In fact, why you'd invent whole new unthought of arguments against the WIT being upgraded, I don't know.

What about Limerick's image incidentally? Not the best image in the world, but they have a university. I really don't get this business of Waterford people coming up with all these crazy extra reasons why the WIT shouldn't be upgraded when opponents of the upgrade have enough as it is. It would not be a big deal in terms of time and money (relatively speaking) to upgrade the WIT to a university, but it would be a massive deal to the local and regional economy. That's the bottom line. It has to happen.

Psychedelic

how can WIT ever operate at university level without the adequate funding?

and university status is not just about a better education, it would mean millions more in our local & regional economny, it would attract big businesses and more knowledge based industry. it's estimated that having a university would mean an extra €90m annually for the regional economy.

having university status means less 'brain drain' i.e. less local leaving students would be leaving waterford to go somewhere to get a university education and they wouldn't need to leave waterford to get a decent job.

merlante

stick-dan wrote: »

If we are being realistic about the whole situation WIT is nowhere near good enough to be granted university status. Paddy@CIRL said that

The qualifications that the WIT awards are accredited by the same bodies as those of the universities. If the WIT requires investment to catch up in terms of buildings, then it should get it. WIT has more student numbers than NUI Maynooth. It generates almost as much research funding as NUI Maynooth, despite being an IT, and having a lesser remit and lower funding.

I have studied and worked in three third level institutions: 2 universities and an IT. I don't see a significant difference between where the WIT is at and where some of the smaller universities are at. The potential of a Waterford University is massive, and existing unviersities know well that their student numbers would be hit hard if the WIT were upgraded. A WU would not be the smallest university either, in a matter of a few years it would outstrip NUIM and DCU, and in time maybe UL.

As a matter of interest, have you seen many Irish universities to make a valid comparison with WIT? And please bear in mind that you are asking a lot of an IT to be a university when it has the remit and the funding of an IT. WIT is close though, and the funding would come with and after the upgrade, but not before it.

stick-dan

You'll be waiting a long while for fianna fail to be out of government ya know that don't ya. We all stupid cos bertie is accepted. Just look at his recent ongoings like. The whole tribunal and he stomping around the place meeting people acting like nothing has happened. And you know why this is. He's "our bertie, sure ya got to love him" we have noone to blame but ourselves.We let him back in last year.I'm not political but all the other parties will promise you the sun moon and the stars and even to go so far as to make WIT a university. When will you all wake up these topics are originally brought up at election times to swing votes.Come on like don't be guliable.Another example of these promises would be the new train station. Has anyone passed it lately, Jaysus construction is flying there aint it :rolleyes:

Psychedelic

i don't believe for a second that if fine gael or others had of got into government in the last elections that they would have granted university status to WIT.

sure it would still be the same problem, upgrading WIT means less piece of the funding cake for the other universities and there will always be people (ministers) against it.

i've never heard of any of the opposition parties pressure the government about upgrading WIT.

aidan24326

stick-dan wrote: »

Another example of these promises would be the new train station. Has anyone passed it lately, Jaysus construction is flying there aint it :rolleyes:

And who is Waterford's minister? It wouldn't be that eejit Cullen by any chance?

dlofnep

We need a Uni in Waterford, but right now WIT needs a huge upgrade in technology.

stick-dan

I think cullen is the minister for social welfare isn't he? But you are dead right Psychedelic when you said

i don't believe for a second that if fine gael or others had of got into government in the last elections that they would have granted university status to WIT.

the college is indeed been held back by other universities anonymously protesting so they wont lose their funding but it is my honest opinion that the cork road campus as yet is just not ready to become a university. The students union told me and fellow boarder sully a few weeks ago of an engineering building being constructed on the cork road campus in the next year or so and what with the new health promotion building due to be open on the cork road campus in a couple of months once all that construction has been finished and the college upgraded technically aswell then it would be a right time to consider university status. But not now..

ec18

stick-dan wrote: »

.Another example of these promises would be the new train station. Has anyone passed it lately, Jaysus construction is flying there aint it :rolleyes:

Construction was delayed due to an objection...but the objection was overruled and permission granted.

WIT shouldn't be a university, the organisation is a sham atm...Christmas exam results are still not available and its the week of midterm...There is also the possibility that the results could be delayed by another week....at this stage i'm wondering if the results for christmas will be out before the summer ones.

merlante

stick-dan wrote: »

I think cullen is the minister for social welfare isn't he? But you are dead right Psychedelic when you said

the college is indeed been held back by other universities anonymously protesting so they wont lose their funding but it is my honest opinion that the cork road campus as yet is just not ready to become a university. The students union told me and fellow boarder sully a few weeks ago of an engineering building being constructed on the cork road campus in the next year or so and what with the new health promotion building due to be open on the cork road campus in a couple of months once all that construction has been finished and the college upgraded technically aswell then it would be a right time to consider university status. But not now..

Are you actually insane? These are insignificant, trifling things that will be ironed out on a timescale of months or a couple of years. We are talking about securing an upgrade that will position the institution at the same table as UL, NUIG, DCU, UCC, etc., that will secure the future of Waterford and the South East for decades to come. The argument for and against are based on present and future demographics, macro-economic grounds, the national spatial strategy, national educational and research strategies, regional concerns over the next 50 years, NOT whether or not such and such a building could do with a lick of paint, or whether the canteen food is nice, or whether the computers there right now are the latest and greatest.

This is big picture stuff, and believe you me, by the time the university comes to Waterford, even if the cabinet signed off on it tomorrow morning, the computers would be one if not two generations ahead of what they are at now. I wonder what the computers were like in DCU and UL when they got upgraded back in 1989? Not the point.

stick-dan

Merlante,
i can assure you that i am not insane, well not officially
How many c*ck ups have the college made with regard to you. I have personal experience with the lack of proper organisation within the college on numerous occasions. I just don't see it as proper standard for a place that will someday inevitably be a university. Its my opinion based on my personal experience there.

As far as bickering over canteen food goes, a a few licks of paint, do you really think i was pushing these as the factors why it shouldn't be an institute. Trust me the canteen is alot better than D.C.U. any day :P I actually never mentioned the canteen but thats beside the point lol. The new buildings are a giant step forward. Personally i think they should relocate the whole thing to carrignore campus, There is so much room there and it would be a beautiful campus albeith inaccessible to students with no car but it would never happen so never mind.

Merlante, you say that

The argument for and against is based on present and future demographics, macro-economic grounds, the national spatial strategy, national educational and research strategies, regional concerns over the next 50 years

. Research and Educationally a university in waterford would be a wonderful thing bringing fresh young minds to the county and increasing the intellect also no doubt. Spatially it is probably not feasible if we are honest.The cork road campus should WIT be granted University status would never be able to cope with the massive influx of students located in the south east counties who would undoubtedly choose waterford over Galway or limerick course selection permitting obviously. WIT is probably in the final phase of its expansion in the cork road campus at the moment what with the up and coming construction of the new engineering building and the near completed construction of the health promotion building, two great additions when completed So there will be nowhere to expand to accommodate an influx. WIT is packed as it is, not full like but noticeably packed. Just my opinion is all.:)

AdMMM

It's strange. Some prominent people in this forum keep saying that WIT isn't organised or efficient enough to be deserving of University. However, they fail to take into consideration that WIT (while being one of the most heavily funded IT's) doesn't receive nearly as much funding as any of the universities. WIT are operating on limited resources (in comparison to the universities) and as such can't be expected to be able match the organisation and efficiency of institutions who receive substantially more funding.

With all this being said, I don't think that WIT do that bad a job at coordinating the years academic activities. I've had friends go to many of the universities and I hear the same complaints from them regarding delayed exam results and conflicting timetables. Third level institutions are behomeths and as a result it's extremely difficult to get everything working smoothly. I think that WIT are doing a fine job, given what they have available to them and I don't think this widespread (and in my mind, false) perception of them being a shambles re: organisation should be a contributing factor in deciding whether or not they are suitable to become part of a university.

Sully

Probably makes little difference to this thread, but the college are upgrading all the computers in the IT Building this summer. The PCs currently in the IT Building are being moved around the college including the library.

run_Forrest_run

ec18 wrote: »

...
WIT shouldn't be a university, the organisation is a sham atm...Christmas exam results are still not available and its the week of midterm...There is also the possibility that the results could be delayed by another week....at this stage i'm wondering if the results for christmas will be out before the summer ones.

I agree! It's a pity to see some things have not improved there over the years...I went there between 95 and 99 and it was badly managed then also.

Listen, the staff of WIT are just pushing for Uni status so they will get more money on top of their already cosy numbers. They feel they have a god given right for Uni status, they should cop on and focus on their real jobs.

As a fellow class member once said (during a lecture), "WIT is a glorified secondary school", we all had a quiet laugh but Richard Lacey (Computer Science) wasn't impressed...:D:D

merlante

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

I agree! It's a pity to see some things have not improved there over the years...I went there between 95 and 99 and it was badly managed then also.

Listen, the staff of WIT are just pushing for Uni status so they will get more money on top of their already cosy numbers. They feel they have a god given right for Uni status, they should cop on and focus on their real jobs.

As a fellow class member once said (during a lecture), "WIT is a glorified secondary school", we all had a quiet laugh but Richard Lacey (Computer Science) wasn't impressed...:D:D

As another poster said, these administrative problems occur with regularity in every 3rd level institution. There is no practical difference between the WIT administration and the administration of most universities (Trinity being the obvious exception because it's been there for centuries). Maybe when you think university, you think of Harvard or Oxford, but no university in Ireland is up to their standard, and even they probably still have a lot of the administrative problems the WIT has.

As was also said, any other deficiencies that the WIT might have with respect to universities would be ironed out with the upgrade, which would give WIT the scope and funding it needs to compete with the other universities.

What I think is unfair is to compare the WIT to a university prior to it being upgraded. Expecting an IT to function as a university before upgrading it to a university is a catch 22!

There are a lot more people than the staff of the WIT that want to see an upgrade. Everyone within commuting distance of the city and at an age where they are thinking of having kids want a university so that their kids can be educated at home. The old story with the staff of the WIT was that they were against it because they didn't want to have to upskill or pursue research. So you can take either cynical line! In reality, everyone benefits, both inside the college, locally and across the region. It's win win.

The 'this <insert institute> is just a glorified secondary school' comment/joke is probably made in every IT and university. ITs and universities in Ireland function like secondary schools. All of them (except maybe Trinity). If you are upset by this, blame the system, maybe blame TV for giving you unrealistic expectations, or study abroad, but WIT is not to blame. Having worked within a university department I can say that students are not considered adults; they are considered children that will run riot unless you control them strictly, and hand feed them material. (That is the reality, and maybe it's not too far off the mark although I disagree with the spirit of it.)

Someone mentioned that WIT would somehow not be able to accommodate the extra students resulting from an upgrade. Are they aware of the new Carriganore west campus, that will one day be the main campus of the college? Are they aware that the institute already has 10,000 full and part time students, the same as DCU and more than NUI Maynooth?

One problem that is practically unique to Waterford is this tendency towards committing political suicide. We have people trying to fight the good fight to get a university for the region, then we have a legion of *Waterford* people sniping against them from the sidelines, as if there wasn't already opposition enough. The big picture is that unless there is a university in Waterford, Waterford will fail to compete with cities like Limerick and Galway in the future and will become a city in name only. So it would be nice if people put their bitterness aside for the common good.

run_Forrest_run

A very good reply merlante, I can't argue with anything you have said, you seem to have the experience to back it up.

OK, I will concede on the 'glorified secondary school' remark as yes, I agree that many students do act like kids and it is necessary to control them so that they do not disrupt the rest of the class and the mature people (I don't mean mature as in mature students in terms of actual age!) who want to pay attention and learn can do so without messers...this usually fizzles out after first and second year though.

I still think though that OK, even if it is an IT it needs to perform like a university in order to convince the powers that be that they are capable and ready for university status, a bit like a trainee pilot, they need to know and perform all the tasks of a qualified pilot before they can be officially classes as a qualified pilot themselves. <sorry if this example is confusing!>

maybe I should pop in to the college some time to see how it has changed, any time I drive past I am impressed by the amount of new buildings but has the quality of service improved? And yes, I know many existing universities are far from perfect but it is up to WIT not to get worked up with those aspects but instead to focus on their own operations and aim to improve it all the time and get rid of any driftwood along the way.

stick-dan

What upgrades would a granted upgrade to university status bring to WIT itself? I know all the attributes it would bring to waterford and the south east.But what actual benefit would it bring to the college.Are we talking merely of money?I'm not being cynical here i would genuinely like to know if anyone has a glue on the subject?

ec18

One example of why WIT should not be upgraded yet is the parking....What would it be like if it grew to the size of UCD? horrible....theres too many problems atm until it gets running more efficiently for its size...than it shouldn't be upgraded

merlante

ec18 wrote: »

One example of why WIT should not be upgraded yet is the parking....What would it be like if it grew to the size of UCD? horrible....theres too many problems atm until it gets running more efficiently for its size...than it shouldn't be upgraded

You know what, you're right. The WIT shouldn't be upgraded because of 'parking'. Because there's no possible way that parking can be expanded alongside everything else. No, you're right, given that there are a fixed number of parking spaces handed out to the WIT by God at the beginning of time, there is no hope for expansion (not even on the new 150 acre west campus).

And what about the trees on the College st. campus? Those trees are hardly up to university standard now that I think of it. I can see now I've been peddling a farce all along!

Sully

merlante; Take it easy, no need to get to personal! Making excellent points, but dont get to upset!

The parking is an issue that they are looking into. They are very limited due to planning restrictions on the green area but I believe they are looking into getting an underground car park.

I agree in general WIT deserves Uni Status - I just dont think its ready for it YET. The problems everyone complains about are common in ITs, I believe, but I just dont know if WIT is anywhere near ready for University. It needs a few more years, I think, to get prepared and sort out their campuses (there moving away from College St.) and most of the in-house problems.

Traumadoc

I remember when Limerick was a NIHE, I think that WIT will become a university but it will take time.

Roanmore

From the News and Star: Asked if he could give a committment to the people of the South East that a University would be delivered he said "I will give a committment that we will come to a conclusion"

Another earth shattering statement from Bertie Ahern which means absolutely nothing. Given his recent record with profound statements I shouldn't be too surprised. Next he will be asked about next years budget and say "I can confirm we will have a budget in December".

Sully

I gathered from that statment that it will be decided soon but wont be a Uni.

Roanmore

With Bertie Ahern, that statement could mean anything and he never said when that conclusion would be, next month, next year, before the next election?

ec18

merlante wrote: »

You know what, you're right. The WIT shouldn't be upgraded because of 'parking'. Because there's no possible way that parking can be expanded alongside everything else. No, you're right, given that there are a fixed number of parking spaces handed out to the WIT by God at the beginning of time, there is no hope for expansion (not even on the new 150 acre west campus).

And what about the trees on the College st. campus? Those trees are hardly up to university standard now that I think of it. I can see now I've been peddling a farce all along!

You misunderstood the point of my post. Parking was just the easiest example to use. That at present with current facilities the institute may not be able to cope with a huge influx of students. At present in the WIT there are rarely any computers around to use unless you are timetables to use them. And at night many of the computer rooms are used for night courses, so its possible that you may not be able to use the facilities after hours either (Before anyone says anything about that for some courses the software needed is available in one or two rooms)
You mentioned the new 150 acre campus and that is great, but when is it going to be ready? I agree that the SE needs a University, but in its present state WIT would not be able to handle the expected influx of students. By all means in the future when the west campus is completed and all these problems are resolved it should be made a university. But the campaigners do not see these problems, they want it now....and now WIT is not ready.

JohnC.

Won't being given an increased status and increased funding help them solve these problems? I'd think it wouldn't happen overnight either, but they would be told "You will have university status in 3 years" or whatever, so it isn't so much the condition it is in now, but what it will be like when the time comes.

fricatus

ec18 wrote: »

You misunderstood the point of my post. Parking was just the easiest example to use. That at present with current facilities the institute may not be able to cope with a huge influx of students. At present in the WIT there are rarely any computers around to use unless you are timetables to use them. And at night many of the computer rooms are used for night courses, so its possible that you may not be able to use the facilities after hours either (Before anyone says anything about that for some courses the software needed is available in one or two rooms)
You mentioned the new 150 acre campus and that is great, but when is it going to be ready? I agree that the SE needs a University, but in its present state WIT would not be able to handle the expected influx of students. By all means in the future when the west campus is completed and all these problems are resolved it should be made a university. But the campaigners do not see these problems, they want it now....and now WIT is not ready.

ec18, I'm assuming you've never worked in any sort of organisation that's undergoing rapid change if you're thinking like that.

My experience in the work environment (I'm in IT) is that decisions are not made based on whether absolutely all the little elements necessary are in place. Generally a decision on which team will run a project or what location a service will be set up in, is determined by factors like cost, which services can afford to be dropped to make way for the new, how easy it will be to hire loads of new staff, that kind of thing. Very rarely does any analysis of the details come into it. That's left to the implementors, and it's usually done last and in a hurry. We recently moved 50 people into a building that had no parking, hot water, canteen, waste disposal, etc.

And let me tell you: if we had waited for all those things to be put in place, we'd still be waiting, and the knock-on effects on our customers (who are the ones who pay our salaries) would have become intolerable and would have hit our corporate image hard.

If we wait for perfect parking, canteen, IT services, trees etc., we'll never have a university. Those are small logistical matters in the context of the overall project, and while they should be tackled urgently, their absence should not be left get in the way of an upgrade of WIT.

ec18

fricatus wrote: »

ec18, I'm assuming you've never worked in any sort of organisation that's undergoing rapid change if you're thinking like that.

My experience in the work environment (I'm in IT) is that decisions are not made based on whether absolutely all the little elements necessary are in place. Generally a decision on which team will run a project or what location a service will be set up in, is determined by factors like cost, which services can afford to be dropped to make way for the new, how easy it will be to hire loads of new staff, that kind of thing. Very rarely does any analysis of the details come into it. That's left to the implementors, and it's usually done last and in a hurry. We recently moved 50 people into a building that had no parking, hot water, canteen, waste disposal, etc.

And let me tell you: if we had waited for all those things to be put in place, we'd still be waiting, and the knock-on effects on our customers (who are the ones who pay our salaries) would have become intolerable and would have hit our corporate image hard.

If we wait for perfect parking, canteen, IT services, trees etc., we'll never have a university. Those are small logistical matters in the context of the overall project, and while they should be tackled urgently, their absence should not be left get in the way of an upgrade of WIT.

I'm sure the surronding residents of WIT feel the same as you as well....we are not talking about a private company that is scared of losing profits and disappointing customers. It's a government institution that is providing a serviceand as such is probably operating at a loss but either way the lecturers get paid. A simple question can everybody arguing that WIT needs to be upgraded now honestly say that the COURSES offered and taught if it gets upgraded will be vastly superior to the ones offered now?

fricatus

ec18 wrote: »

I'm sure the surronding residents of WIT feel the same as you as well....we are not talking about a private company that is scared of losing profits and disappointing customers. It's a government institution that is providing a serviceand as such is probably operating at a loss but either way the lecturers get paid. A simple question can everybody arguing that WIT needs to be upgraded now honestly say that the COURSES offered and taught if it gets upgraded will be vastly superior to the ones offered now?

You're missing my point completely here, so let me make it again: if you waited for everything to be perfect, you'd do nothing.

Let me switch example: would you keep putting off your wedding, having children or buying a new car because you couldn't afford it all out of your savings? Of course not. You'd borrow and deal with the fallout afterwards.

The principle applies just as much to upgrading educational institutions as it does to private enterprise or one's personal life.

jmcc

Waterford needs a university.
When Waterford gets a university, the other universities will suffer from lower intakes.
This will hit Galway and Limerick because of their overlapping cachement area.
It may also affect Cork to a greater extent.

No wonder the scum in Dublin don't want to give Waterford a university.

Regards...jmcc

stick-dan

As said by fricatus.
You're missing my point completely here, so let me make it again: if you waited for everything to be perfect, you'd do nothing.

Let me switch example: would you keep putting off your wedding, having children or buying a new car because you couldn't afford it all out of your savings? Of course not. You'd borrow and deal with the fallout afterwards.

The principle applies just as much to upgrading educational institutions as it does to private enterprise or one's personal life.

Are you Actually in the college at the moment because i am as is ec18. We both encountered two different major mess-ups this year so far in conjunction with the college and that's only this year. It is stupid for you to be insisting that ec18 means that we can't be upgrading the college due to the canteen or paint. We are not that fickle. The college is not ready at the moment.As was said earlier in the thread the cork road campus would not be capable to cope with a large influx of would be university students if WIT was granted university status right now.

I think that we all can agree in the future when carrignore is fully developed and offering full facilities out their it then will be the appropriate time to be pushing for university status. There is no point in pushing for university status now. We are not ready for it and would not be able to cope with it. Give it maybe 5 years, Centre the heartbeat of WIT in Carrignore maybe and then push for University Status. Then the SE will have a university it will be truly proud of. Give it time and don't rush it.WIT is not ready now!

merlante

First off Sully, I won't make things personal, but this is worth getting upset about. It is vitally important for the institute's future, the city and region that the WIT gets upgraded. This decision may even play a big part in the lives of those who are posting here, whether they realise it or not. We have an opportunity, that is still on the table, that may not come back again any time soon.

There have been a lot of posts to the effect that the WIT is limited in such and such a way, and therefore it is unready to be upgraded. Fricatus hit the nail on the head: you make a strategic decision, and then you follow up. You don't begin by aimlessly ticking a thousand little boxes until you wake up one day and find that the names have changed on all the signs. That is not the way it works in business or in the public sector.

Waterford and the south east require a university as soon as possible in order to compete with the other regions and for all of the other reasons that have been given. The case would be a compelling one whether there was a WIT to upgrade or a hole in the ground. Now it just so happens that we have an IT, which, despite having the scope and funding on an IT, is functioning somewhere between an IT and a university. We have met the government more than half way already.

The way you make it perform as a university is by upgrading it. There are a huge number of things that will improve overnight. The status of university will buy increased student numbers, more competition for staff positions, easier access to research funding, more international prestige, etc., etc. There are other things that the status change will not accomplish; these will have to be ironed out in time. But the focus and drive toward a university will likely mean that these issues will also be sorted out efficiently.

What people have to understand is that even if everything was signed off tomorrow, it would take years for the WIT to be upgraded. Years. Easily enough time to fix up any of the fecky little 'problem of the month' issues like the lack of parking, or old computer facilities, or whatever. We need everyone to be pulling in the same direction to make this happen. What we don't need are people coming up with all these extra road blocks, which can easily be sorted down the line whether the decision to upgrade is made or not.

Fricatus is dead right in that the upgrade would drive these improvements, but the improvements, made in isolation over time, will not necessarily drive the upgrade.

ec18

Again I ask the question would upgrading WIT significantly improve the quality of the teaching? why?....(I mean in practice not due to more research money)

Sully

Sources in the college agreed only recently they feel its not ready for an upgrade yet. Half of Tramore and Waterford seem to be teaching in WIT, or have some sort of job in there. As one person went as far to say "The college is run by thickos". Parents and students are fed up of having the stress on a busy college schedule due to continuous college problems. Its a great college, offers good courses and a great campus to students. Its after growing big time and continues to grow. Is it ready? I personally don't think so. Will things improve? More money probably means they can offer more services and add more buildings and courses. Will it fix the internal mess ups that are not just a "problem of the month" and "happen to every college, IT or University"? Will several years be the required time to fix out all these problems and prepare itself for the running with the big boys?

Maybe we feel different since we bare the brunt of the stress of everyday college life in WIT - not cause we have tough courses, but cause the college is a shambles and is continuously running into problems. Its something like seven million in debt. The rest of the problems you will all consider minor, as outsiders, but the students don't agree.

Its a tough one that has people divided...

merlante

ec18 wrote: »

Again I ask the question would upgrading WIT significantly improve the quality of the teaching? why?....(I mean in practice not due to more research money)

More money plus more prestige equals more competition for the best lecturers available, and the funds to buy in and head hunt world class academics. Add to that the research expertise that they bring with them, the additional funding and scope for research, and you have lecturers who can introduce students into cutting edge fields, and who are in a position to offer more postgraduate and research opportunities.

Basically, the same reasons that Harvard has better lecturers (presumably) than DCU, or some Irish universities (presumably) over the WIT.

You don't genetically breed better lecturers or administrators in a lab, you attract them with prestige and cash.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Is it ready? I personally don't think so. Will things improve? More money probably means they can offer more services and add more buildings and courses. Will it fix the internal mess ups that are not just a "problem of the month" and "happen to every college, IT or University"? Will several years be the required time to fix out all these problems and prepare itself for the running with the big boys?

I attended a certain university, which was at the time relatively new, and the campus was a building site for the entire time I was there, and people had many complaints about bad administration, bad organisation, certain aspects being a sham, etc., etc., but I'm sure that the students that are there now are attending a college that is 10 times the place it was when I started. (When I started it wasn't too far ahead of the WIT now and maybe behind in a few respects.)

Which do you think is better? To sort the problems while planning an upgrade to university, or to delay an upgrade -- which may not be on the table in the future -- until all the problems are solved.

Which approach do you think is likely to work best politically?

Sully wrote: »

Its a tough one that has people divided...

The divide should be between the people of the south east and the people outside of the south east (with the opposite vested interest). Regardless of how many bad experiences you have had in the WIT, I'm sorry, but the whole region needs the upgrade now for the greater good. There is a lot more at stake than exposing the student body to a period of uncomfortably rapid change. There is a window of opportunity that has to be seized.

And once again, the upgrade will take *years*, it will not happen overnight anyway. The process needs to start now.

AdMMM

Sully wrote:

Sources in the college agreed only recently they feel its not ready for an upgrade yet.

If you're trying to make a point, you're doing a bad job of it - your "source" could very well be an overheard conversation between two people in the canteen.

stick-dan wrote:

The college is not ready at the moment.As was said earlier in the thread the cork road campus would not be capable to cope with a large influx of would be university students if WIT was granted university status right now.

I don't mean to offend but that is shockingly bad point. The CAO system is there for a reason - it ensures that a quota of allocated places for each course is met. University status would certainly create more demand for places, which would see courses rise in points but only because the courses would initially be the same size until further campus expansion allowed them to increase places available in courses. In no way would there be an influx of more students, just an influx of higher scoring students.

ec18 wrote:

Again I ask the question would upgrading WIT significantly improve the quality of the teaching? why?

Many of the current teaching staff are employed on a part time (i.e short term contract) basis which is far from ideal if there's expected to be a consistent level of tuition offered to students. University status would open up more funding and allow the college to attract top class lecturers worthy of tenure rather than post-grads who see lecturing as a means to an end.

stick-dan wrote:

Give it maybe 5 years, Centre the heartbeat of WIT in Carrignore maybe and then push for University Status.

Time is of the essense. Reports on the economic development of the region regularly refer to the brain drain in the South East i.e only a fraction of the students who travel to universities end up working back in the South East which has detrimental consequences for the region. Time is not a luxury we can afford to waste if we want Waterford City to be thought of as being on the same (if not higher) level than Galway and Limerick.

Sully wrote:

The problems everyone complains about are common in ITs

Sully wrote:

Maybe we feel different since we bare the brunt of the stress of everyday college life in WIT - not cause we have tough courses, but cause the college is a shambles and is continuously running into problems.

You will find people in every third level institution complaining about their college being a shambles. WIT may be the only college I will ever attend but in considering my options I can honestly say that I researched every college in Ireland which had courses that appealed to me. I went to almost all of the open days and made certain to talk to the relevant people about college life, course content and the quality of the college. I also have friends attending every university in Ireland (with the exception of NUIG) who regularly complain about having 5 minutes to trek across one side of a campus to another, a task that takes at least 15 minutes. You speak as if WIT isn't ready, but if I was to adopt your thinking and combine it with complaints that I've heard, then I would be the first to say that UCC and UL (to name just two) aren't worthy

ec18

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

Many of the current teaching staff are employed on a part time (i.e short term contract) basis which is far from ideal if there's expected to be a consistent level of tuition offered to students. University status would open up more funding and allow the college to attract top class lecturers worthy of tenure rather than post-grads who see lecturing as a means to an end.

Thanks thats the type of answer I wanted not some rant about development in the SE or more research money....simple reason as to why university status wold benefit the students.

@merlante annoying the student body is not the best way to start off being a university
interesting editorial here especially the last part

stick-dan

Ah sure here Tell you what lets end this argument and make carlow the University in the south east. But wait you'll all say that it's not good enough to be a university with regard to if carlow was to make an application to be a university. Sorry if this seems off topic but it will lead back to it in a few. Carlow had its main campus and its Wexford side campus which is better than Waterford's second one i.e college Street. Carlow and wit offer a wide range of courses that are very similar and of the same caliber albeit WIT may have a few extra on offer. carlow even has its own aeroplane for aeronotical student for crying out loud. It may not have the student population of WIT nor near as many computers but a close friend of mine attended WIT last year and switched to continue his course in carlow for family reasons and he says that there is little or no difference between the education received in the two. So let's push for Carlow if that be the case. So go ahead and rule that out straight away and then think of what a student attending the two college's has said, "They are not that different". So as would happen if carlow did make a bid it would be immediately rejected so why shouldn't WIT. let's ask the question that should have been asked in this thread,

WHY SHOULD WIT BE A UNIVERSITY?

Nolanger

Carlow offers a degree in Computer Games Development - one of the few high profile industries that's under-developed in this country.
And it has a more central location in the South East for the surrounding counties.