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WIT University

Roanmore

Just read a discussion on another website (link below) which says Mary Hanafin is set to refuse University status for WIT. Just wondering if this is a definite decision or whether it's just rehashed, the thread was only started today.

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=31636

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willy84k

i heard shes claiming there enough 3rd level entries with in university's from the south east as to not need a university!!!i think it should be upgraded its got the facilities

mike65

Business and Finance guru Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev spoke about the ambition for a university here

Mike.

fricatus

mike65 wrote: »

Business and Finance guru Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev spoke about the ambition for a university here

Mike.

Hardly surprising since he works for UCD and is a Research Associate in Trinity.

Likewise Hanafin...with two of the country's seven universities in south Dublin, she's hardly going to want to upset her constituents and share the cake with the culchies.

I always found it galling that the greater Dublin area, with 1.5 million people*, has four universities**, whereas the rest of the country, with 2.5 milllion people, has three.

*Dublin city and county: 1 million people, three universities. Outside Dublin, 3 million people, four universities, if you don't consider Maynooth a Dublin university.
** I include Maynooth because it's on a Dublin Bus route

Paddy@CIRL

When we had problems with the College last year (No printers working at all), we were told by Professor Byrne that if we had University status, we wouldn't have these problems.

To me thats the biggest load of horlix ever. They are blaming all their problems on not being a University, if they can't operate as an I.T. they have no hope of being a successful University.

mike65

Quality contribution there!

Mike.

meldrew

The minister is sitting on the Port report since last year which if it was negative towards the upgrading would have been published months ago , she definitely seems to have it in for the people of the south east alright , the main reason coming from government seems to be if they upgrade wit they'll have to upgrade all the other ITs which is a weak argument

Sully

No problem posting the link as long as the sites okay

Nolanger

Always wondered why Waterford NEEDS a University - is it a plan to finally stop young middle-class people from leaving that city?
If there was to be a Uni in the SE of this country is the Cork Road with its industrial and social housing estates the ideal location?
What I'm saying is that maybe the image of the city needs to improve before it's granted a Uni.

stick-dan

How many people who have posted here wanting WIT to become a university have no direct involvement of previous involvement with Waterford IT? I would reckon that the number would be fairly low.I'm a fellow student studying in WIT and would love for it to be granted university status to give me an even better looking degree but who are we all kidding. The only reason we are all complaining and campaigning for it to be granted University status is because we all want better qualifications leaving there. If we are being realistic about the whole situation WIT is nowhere near good enough to be granted university status. Paddy@CIRL said that

When we had problems with the College last year (No printers working at all), we were told by Professor Byrne that if we had University status, we wouldn't have these problems.

To me thats the biggest load of horlix ever. They are blaming all their problems on not being a University, if they can't operate as an I.T. they have no hope of being a successful University.

and i have to agree.The people in WIT blame everything that goes wrong on the fact that they are not a university. How would WIT being a university have made the printers not fail when they did. Load of B****x.The administration running WIT cannot even organize properly. They absolutely made a mockery of the January examinations but although we have been "assured" that it will not happen again it should never have happened in the first place. In my opinion which will no doubt be met with opposition, Until WIT can function properly and adequately as an IT it has no chance or right to try and become a university.

Sully

While I agree with your points, thats not why the minister is refusing the application. Shes looking for any excuse to do so, and keeps stalling. We wont get Uni while Final Fail are in government. Vote with your feet - get rid of the corupt goverment we have running this country.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

Always wondered why Waterford NEEDS a University - is it a plan to finally stop young middle-class people from leaving that city?
If there was to be a Uni in the SE of this country is the Cork Road with its industrial and social housing estates the ideal location?
What I'm saying is that maybe the image of the city needs to improve before it's granted a Uni.

- To offer parity of educational opportunities to Waterford and the South East.
- To offer parity of educational investment to Waterford and the South East.
- To support the National Spatial Strategy, where Waterford must serve the same regional function as Cork, Limerick and Galway.
- To offer a level playing field in attracting foreign direct investment and high tech. industry.
- To offer non-technical degrees.
- To make third and fourth level education more accessible to the people of Waterford and the South East.
- To address socio-economic deficits extant in Waterford and the South East, including a lower than average number of degree holders in the region, lower than average incomes, less and lesser quality FDI into the region, by far the lowest number of business start-ups of the five cities, less employment opportunities, less tertiary investment, and so on.

And yes, if it halts the 'brain drain' or the glut of young middle class people leaving the city, all the better! Not only are they leaving, but their mammies and daddies are subsidising landlords, universities (capitation fees) and small business in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Dublin for 4 years, as if the economies of those cities weren't doing well enough as it was with the combined investment of a university, an IT and whatever private sector investment is brought along with them.

The WIT has three campuses (that I know of): the main campus on the Cork rd., the College st. campus and the new Carriganore west campus. All new buildings will be built in Carriganore. As to the Cork rd.'s location, DCU is built in the same sort of area, and nobody is saying it shouldn't be a university because of it. In fact, why you'd invent whole new unthought of arguments against the WIT being upgraded, I don't know.

What about Limerick's image incidentally? Not the best image in the world, but they have a university. I really don't get this business of Waterford people coming up with all these crazy extra reasons why the WIT shouldn't be upgraded when opponents of the upgrade have enough as it is. It would not be a big deal in terms of time and money (relatively speaking) to upgrade the WIT to a university, but it would be a massive deal to the local and regional economy. That's the bottom line. It has to happen.

Psychedelic

how can WIT ever operate at university level without the adequate funding?

and university status is not just about a better education, it would mean millions more in our local & regional economny, it would attract big businesses and more knowledge based industry. it's estimated that having a university would mean an extra €90m annually for the regional economy.

having university status means less 'brain drain' i.e. less local leaving students would be leaving waterford to go somewhere to get a university education and they wouldn't need to leave waterford to get a decent job.

merlante

stick-dan wrote: »

If we are being realistic about the whole situation WIT is nowhere near good enough to be granted university status. Paddy@CIRL said that

The qualifications that the WIT awards are accredited by the same bodies as those of the universities. If the WIT requires investment to catch up in terms of buildings, then it should get it. WIT has more student numbers than NUI Maynooth. It generates almost as much research funding as NUI Maynooth, despite being an IT, and having a lesser remit and lower funding.

I have studied and worked in three third level institutions: 2 universities and an IT. I don't see a significant difference between where the WIT is at and where some of the smaller universities are at. The potential of a Waterford University is massive, and existing unviersities know well that their student numbers would be hit hard if the WIT were upgraded. A WU would not be the smallest university either, in a matter of a few years it would outstrip NUIM and DCU, and in time maybe UL.

As a matter of interest, have you seen many Irish universities to make a valid comparison with WIT? And please bear in mind that you are asking a lot of an IT to be a university when it has the remit and the funding of an IT. WIT is close though, and the funding would come with and after the upgrade, but not before it.

stick-dan

You'll be waiting a long while for fianna fail to be out of government ya know that don't ya. We all stupid cos bertie is accepted. Just look at his recent ongoings like. The whole tribunal and he stomping around the place meeting people acting like nothing has happened. And you know why this is. He's "our bertie, sure ya got to love him" we have noone to blame but ourselves.We let him back in last year.I'm not political but all the other parties will promise you the sun moon and the stars and even to go so far as to make WIT a university. When will you all wake up these topics are originally brought up at election times to swing votes.Come on like don't be guliable.Another example of these promises would be the new train station. Has anyone passed it lately, Jaysus construction is flying there aint it :rolleyes:

Psychedelic

i don't believe for a second that if fine gael or others had of got into government in the last elections that they would have granted university status to WIT.

sure it would still be the same problem, upgrading WIT means less piece of the funding cake for the other universities and there will always be people (ministers) against it.

i've never heard of any of the opposition parties pressure the government about upgrading WIT.

aidan24326

stick-dan wrote: »

Another example of these promises would be the new train station. Has anyone passed it lately, Jaysus construction is flying there aint it :rolleyes:

And who is Waterford's minister? It wouldn't be that eejit Cullen by any chance?

dlofnep

We need a Uni in Waterford, but right now WIT needs a huge upgrade in technology.

stick-dan

I think cullen is the minister for social welfare isn't he? But you are dead right Psychedelic when you said

i don't believe for a second that if fine gael or others had of got into government in the last elections that they would have granted university status to WIT.

the college is indeed been held back by other universities anonymously protesting so they wont lose their funding but it is my honest opinion that the cork road campus as yet is just not ready to become a university. The students union told me and fellow boarder sully a few weeks ago of an engineering building being constructed on the cork road campus in the next year or so and what with the new health promotion building due to be open on the cork road campus in a couple of months once all that construction has been finished and the college upgraded technically aswell then it would be a right time to consider university status. But not now..

ec18

stick-dan wrote: »

.Another example of these promises would be the new train station. Has anyone passed it lately, Jaysus construction is flying there aint it :rolleyes:

Construction was delayed due to an objection...but the objection was overruled and permission granted.

WIT shouldn't be a university, the organisation is a sham atm...Christmas exam results are still not available and its the week of midterm...There is also the possibility that the results could be delayed by another week....at this stage i'm wondering if the results for christmas will be out before the summer ones.

merlante

stick-dan wrote: »

I think cullen is the minister for social welfare isn't he? But you are dead right Psychedelic when you said

the college is indeed been held back by other universities anonymously protesting so they wont lose their funding but it is my honest opinion that the cork road campus as yet is just not ready to become a university. The students union told me and fellow boarder sully a few weeks ago of an engineering building being constructed on the cork road campus in the next year or so and what with the new health promotion building due to be open on the cork road campus in a couple of months once all that construction has been finished and the college upgraded technically aswell then it would be a right time to consider university status. But not now..

Are you actually insane? These are insignificant, trifling things that will be ironed out on a timescale of months or a couple of years. We are talking about securing an upgrade that will position the institution at the same table as UL, NUIG, DCU, UCC, etc., that will secure the future of Waterford and the South East for decades to come. The argument for and against are based on present and future demographics, macro-economic grounds, the national spatial strategy, national educational and research strategies, regional concerns over the next 50 years, NOT whether or not such and such a building could do with a lick of paint, or whether the canteen food is nice, or whether the computers there right now are the latest and greatest.

This is big picture stuff, and believe you me, by the time the university comes to Waterford, even if the cabinet signed off on it tomorrow morning, the computers would be one if not two generations ahead of what they are at now. I wonder what the computers were like in DCU and UL when they got upgraded back in 1989? Not the point.

stick-dan

Merlante,
i can assure you that i am not insane, well not officially

How many c*ck ups have the college made with regard to you. I have personal experience with the lack of proper organisation within the college on numerous occasions. I just don't see it as proper standard for a place that will someday inevitably be a university. Its my opinion based on my personal experience there.

As far as bickering over canteen food goes, a a few licks of paint, do you really think i was pushing these as the factors why it shouldn't be an institute. Trust me the canteen is alot better than D.C.U. any day :P I actually never mentioned the canteen but thats beside the point lol. The new buildings are a giant step forward. Personally i think they should relocate the whole thing to carrignore campus, There is so much room there and it would be a beautiful campus albeith inaccessible to students with no car but it would never happen so never mind.

Merlante, you say that

The argument for and against is based on present and future demographics, macro-economic grounds, the national spatial strategy, national educational and research strategies, regional concerns over the next 50 years

. Research and Educationally a university in waterford would be a wonderful thing bringing fresh young minds to the county and increasing the intellect also no doubt. Spatially it is probably not feasible if we are honest.The cork road campus should WIT be granted University status would never be able to cope with the massive influx of students located in the south east counties who would undoubtedly choose waterford over Galway or limerick course selection permitting obviously. WIT is probably in the final phase of its expansion in the cork road campus at the moment what with the up and coming construction of the new engineering building and the near completed construction of the health promotion building, two great additions when completed So there will be nowhere to expand to accommodate an influx. WIT is packed as it is, not full like but noticeably packed. Just my opinion is all.:)

AdMMM

It's strange. Some prominent people in this forum keep saying that WIT isn't organised or efficient enough to be deserving of University. However, they fail to take into consideration that WIT (while being one of the most heavily funded IT's) doesn't receive nearly as much funding as any of the universities. WIT are operating on limited resources (in comparison to the universities) and as such can't be expected to be able match the organisation and efficiency of institutions who receive substantially more funding.

With all this being said, I don't think that WIT do that bad a job at coordinating the years academic activities. I've had friends go to many of the universities and I hear the same complaints from them regarding delayed exam results and conflicting timetables. Third level institutions are behomeths and as a result it's extremely difficult to get everything working smoothly. I think that WIT are doing a fine job, given what they have available to them and I don't think this widespread (and in my mind, false) perception of them being a shambles re: organisation should be a contributing factor in deciding whether or not they are suitable to become part of a university.

Sully

Probably makes little difference to this thread, but the college are upgrading all the computers in the IT Building this summer. The PCs currently in the IT Building are being moved around the college including the library.

run_Forrest_run

ec18 wrote: »

...
WIT shouldn't be a university, the organisation is a sham atm...Christmas exam results are still not available and its the week of midterm...There is also the possibility that the results could be delayed by another week....at this stage i'm wondering if the results for christmas will be out before the summer ones.

I agree! It's a pity to see some things have not improved there over the years...I went there between 95 and 99 and it was badly managed then also.

Listen, the staff of WIT are just pushing for Uni status so they will get more money on top of their already cosy numbers. They feel they have a god given right for Uni status, they should cop on and focus on their real jobs.

As a fellow class member once said (during a lecture), "WIT is a glorified secondary school", we all had a quiet laugh but Richard Lacey (Computer Science) wasn't impressed...:D:D

merlante

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

I agree! It's a pity to see some things have not improved there over the years...I went there between 95 and 99 and it was badly managed then also.

Listen, the staff of WIT are just pushing for Uni status so they will get more money on top of their already cosy numbers. They feel they have a god given right for Uni status, they should cop on and focus on their real jobs.

As a fellow class member once said (during a lecture), "WIT is a glorified secondary school", we all had a quiet laugh but Richard Lacey (Computer Science) wasn't impressed...:D:D

As another poster said, these administrative problems occur with regularity in every 3rd level institution. There is no practical difference between the WIT administration and the administration of most universities (Trinity being the obvious exception because it's been there for centuries). Maybe when you think university, you think of Harvard or Oxford, but no university in Ireland is up to their standard, and even they probably still have a lot of the administrative problems the WIT has.

As was also said, any other deficiencies that the WIT might have with respect to universities would be ironed out with the upgrade, which would give WIT the scope and funding it needs to compete with the other universities.

What I think is unfair is to compare the WIT to a university prior to it being upgraded. Expecting an IT to function as a university before upgrading it to a university is a catch 22!

There are a lot more people than the staff of the WIT that want to see an upgrade. Everyone within commuting distance of the city and at an age where they are thinking of having kids want a university so that their kids can be educated at home. The old story with the staff of the WIT was that they were against it because they didn't want to have to upskill or pursue research. So you can take either cynical line! In reality, everyone benefits, both inside the college, locally and across the region. It's win win.

The 'this <insert institute> is just a glorified secondary school' comment/joke is probably made in every IT and university. ITs and universities in Ireland function like secondary schools. All of them (except maybe Trinity). If you are upset by this, blame the system, maybe blame TV for giving you unrealistic expectations, or study abroad, but WIT is not to blame. Having worked within a university department I can say that students are not considered adults; they are considered children that will run riot unless you control them strictly, and hand feed them material. (That is the reality, and maybe it's not too far off the mark although I disagree with the spirit of it.)

Someone mentioned that WIT would somehow not be able to accommodate the extra students resulting from an upgrade. Are they aware of the new Carriganore west campus, that will one day be the main campus of the college? Are they aware that the institute already has 10,000 full and part time students, the same as DCU and more than NUI Maynooth?

One problem that is practically unique to Waterford is this tendency towards committing political suicide. We have people trying to fight the good fight to get a university for the region, then we have a legion of *Waterford* people sniping against them from the sidelines, as if there wasn't already opposition enough. The big picture is that unless there is a university in Waterford, Waterford will fail to compete with cities like Limerick and Galway in the future and will become a city in name only. So it would be nice if people put their bitterness aside for the common good.

run_Forrest_run

A very good reply merlante, I can't argue with anything you have said, you seem to have the experience to back it up.

OK, I will concede on the 'glorified secondary school' remark as yes, I agree that many students do act like kids and it is necessary to control them so that they do not disrupt the rest of the class and the mature people (I don't mean mature as in mature students in terms of actual age!) who want to pay attention and learn can do so without messers...this usually fizzles out after first and second year though.

I still think though that OK, even if it is an IT it needs to perform like a university in order to convince the powers that be that they are capable and ready for university status, a bit like a trainee pilot, they need to know and perform all the tasks of a qualified pilot before they can be officially classes as a qualified pilot themselves. <sorry if this example is confusing!>

maybe I should pop in to the college some time to see how it has changed, any time I drive past I am impressed by the amount of new buildings but has the quality of service improved? And yes, I know many existing universities are far from perfect but it is up to WIT not to get worked up with those aspects but instead to focus on their own operations and aim to improve it all the time and get rid of any driftwood along the way.

stick-dan

What upgrades would a granted upgrade to university status bring to WIT itself? I know all the attributes it would bring to waterford and the south east.But what actual benefit would it bring to the college.Are we talking merely of money?I'm not being cynical here i would genuinely like to know if anyone has a glue on the subject?

ec18

One example of why WIT should not be upgraded yet is the parking....What would it be like if it grew to the size of UCD? horrible....theres too many problems atm until it gets running more efficiently for its size...than it shouldn't be upgraded

merlante

ec18 wrote: »

One example of why WIT should not be upgraded yet is the parking....What would it be like if it grew to the size of UCD? horrible....theres too many problems atm until it gets running more efficiently for its size...than it shouldn't be upgraded

You know what, you're right. The WIT shouldn't be upgraded because of 'parking'. Because there's no possible way that parking can be expanded alongside everything else. No, you're right, given that there are a fixed number of parking spaces handed out to the WIT by God at the beginning of time, there is no hope for expansion (not even on the new 150 acre west campus).

And what about the trees on the College st. campus? Those trees are hardly up to university standard now that I think of it. I can see now I've been peddling a farce all along!

Sully

merlante; Take it easy, no need to get to personal! Making excellent points, but dont get to upset!

The parking is an issue that they are looking into. They are very limited due to planning restrictions on the green area but I believe they are looking into getting an underground car park.

I agree in general WIT deserves Uni Status - I just dont think its ready for it YET. The problems everyone complains about are common in ITs, I believe, but I just dont know if WIT is anywhere near ready for University. It needs a few more years, I think, to get prepared and sort out their campuses (there moving away from College St.) and most of the in-house problems.