WIT University

Sully

Moonbaby wrote: »

Give me a real life example. I know people from all walks, and from their expierences and the backgrounds of their colleagues I don't think that is true at all.
At the end of the day a degree is just a entry requirement to a profession.
They don't have high expectations of a graduate and after that your based on your work expierence. Where your degree is from and what grade you achieve is rarely relevant. IMO.

I cant as I ain't graduated yet, but a lot of people I spoke to felt this is the situation. I always thought that a University Degree is better then a degree obtained from an IT - a lot of people I ever spoke to seemed to think this.

Ill try get a real life example for you, but right now im just saying from what previous people have told me.

Amazotheamazing

merlante wrote: »

This is the root of the problem right here. We have 7 universities. You ask me to prove why 8 would be better than 7. I, on the other hand, am supposed to take it as a given that less universities would be better, or that another university would 'further' compromise the standard of universities in Ireland.

How many universities do we think we should have? 1, 3, 5? When you argue that WIT should not be upgraded, you're only arguing with people from the south east, but your basic position appears to be that 7 universities is not what you want either, you'd prefer to reduce the number. So if that is your argument, say so, and tell us how many universities there should be, and I'd say (although we won't see it on this board) that there would be a lot more opposition to your position.

You say that the standard of university education is being 'compromised' and 'dumbed down'. Where is you evidence for this? How many 'rated' universities do you think a sparsely populated country of 4.2 million people ought to have. Do you honestly expect us to have more than one or two? Is whether or not a university is rated among top universities in the world the sole criterion for determining the success of a university? What about providing degree level education to a region? What about driving a regional economy?

Do you think that reducing access to university education, which leads to lesser numbers holding degrees in 'the regions', to inject more cash into a select few institutions is a win win situation? What affect would this have on the national spatial strategy?

Getting back to the question of does Ireland need another university.

There may or may not be an economic advantage to the country to upgrading the WIT. It will rejuvinate the regional economy (which helps the state as a whole) and reduce the region's reliance on subsidies in the form of social welfare, grant aid, etc. (which helps the state as a whole), but on the other hand it would split the 3rd and 4th level education spend fractionally more, mitigating against economies of scale. As I said before, though, we should be
aiming the centralise university administration (e.g. one central administration for all the NUI Universities) rather than centralising universities geographically.

Causing internal inequalities and migrations of people (students) from one region to another could be another cause of inefficiency in the national economy.

At the end of the day, an international expert, Dr. Port, has submitted a report to the government. He has looked into this exact question in detail.

In terms of social benefits to the country, the state has a certain obligation to provide core services equally across the country. Although this may be beyond you if you see the world in sheer economic terms, our society and culture 'benefits' from being more fair and equitable. Does this mean that we put a university in every town? No. But if we have a certain distribution of universities at the moment, i.e. one for every half million or so people, that is situated at the centre of a populous region in a city which a certain critical mass, and there is one gaping exception to this distribution, then the situation should be rectified -- as a national as well as regional priority.

If you don't accept that what I've said amounts to any real benefit to the country as a whole -- minus the benefit to the south east, which would be massive -- then you probably don't think there are any benefits to any of the other universities either, except perhaps the select few that in your opinion should be turned into 'rated' universities.

Incidentally, Finland has one of the best education systems in the world, and it has a lot more than 7 universities, as well as the equivalent of an IT sector, for more or less the same population as Ireland. There is no rulebook out there that specifies the exact number of universities a country should have, or even how exactly a university should be constituted.

To be honest, I think considering the size of our country, we only need 3 or 4 elite institutions, at the minute the university sector is bloated as it is, and some courses, are simply there so people can go, "yeah, I went to college and drank for three years". I know this is at odds with your "every parish should have a university" theory, but the fact is, standards are already low in Irish universities.

Btw, I'm pretty sure the lads drawing the dole any where in Ireland would still be drawing the dole if there was a university next to the dole office. If you really, really want to qualify as something, you'll find a way, not having a university on your doorstep is hardly an excuse.

stick-dan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

To be honest, I think considering the size of our country, we only need 3 or 4 elite institutions, at the minute the university sector is bloated as it is, and some courses, are simply there so people can go, "yeah, I went to college and drank for three years". I know this is at odds with your "every parish should have a university" theory, but the fact is, standards are already low in Irish universities.

Btw, I'm pretty sure the lads drawing the dole any where in Ireland would still be drawing the dole if there was a university next to the dole office. If you really, really want to qualify as something, you'll find a way, not having a university on your doorstep is hardly an excuse.

Here Here now we are finally getting to the point.

merlante

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

To be honest, I think considering the size of our country, we only need 3 or 4 elite institutions, at the minute the university sector is bloated as it is, and some courses, are simply there so people can go, "yeah, I went to college and drank for three years". I know this is at odds with your "every parish should have a university" theory, but the fact is, standards are already low in Irish universities.

Btw, I'm pretty sure the lads drawing the dole any where in Ireland would still be drawing the dole if there was a university next to the dole office. If you really, really want to qualify as something, you'll find a way, not having a university on your doorstep is hardly an excuse.

You must have some grave mental deficiency to equate 'the only city and large region which does not have a university should have a university' with 'every parish should have a university'.

It's pretty clear you're just trolling now.

Amazotheamazing

merlante wrote: »

You must have some grave mental deficiency to equate 'the only city and large region which does not have a university should have a university' with 'every parish should have a university'.

It's pretty clear you're just trolling now.

Cheers for getting personal, but no, I'm not trolling.

You have yet to show anything other than a bruised Waterford ego as to why Ireland actually needs an eighth university. Like I said all along, I can see why Waterford would love one, but I don't see why Ireland needs it. We're not short of places in universities as it is, points are dropping.

stick-dan

Thats true university points are dropping. Such high specialty courses like medicine are lowing their points to get students in suggesting there is the brain-drain that is suggested.maybe only half brains are being drained away if it is only the high points course lowering points.:)

Amazotheamazing

stick-dan wrote: »

Thats true university points are dropping. Such high specialty courses like medicine are lowing their points to get students in suggesting there is the brain-drain that is suggested.maybe only half brains are being drained away if it is only the high points course lowering points.:)

The baby boom of the 1970-early 1980's has passed, we simply don't need as many places anymore. Of course certain courses, medicine etc will always be sought after but in general, the urgency for places has passed.

stick-dan

yup:)

merlante

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The baby boom of the 1970-early 1980's has passed, we simply don't need as many places anymore. Of course certain courses, medicine etc will always be sought after but in general, the urgency for places has passed.

Yes, but our population in increasing very strongly from immigration and our birthrate is higher now than it has been since the 80's. Institutions are also targeting foreign and mature students. The potential of student numbers from the last two groups is far from exhausted.

The urgency for places is geographical at the moment, with an undersupply in the SE and an oversupply in Dublin/East.

Amazotheamazing

merlante wrote: »

Yes, but our population in increasing very strongly from immigration and our birthrate is higher now than it has been since the 80's. Institutions are also targeting foreign and mature students. The potential of student numbers from the last two groups is far from exhausted.

The urgency for places is geographical at the moment, with an undersupply in the SE and an oversupply in Dublin/East.

Eh, the reason they are doing this is because they need to fill the places because the numbers doing the leaving cert is dropping, in other words, too many places already, too few students.

Like I said, there is an oversupply already, if geographical concerns are the only problem, the ultimate solution will be to improve infrastructure to make Waterford "closer" in travelling time to both Cork and Dublin. it mightn't be what you want, but I'd be surprised if it's not what happens.

Now, you can argue that Maynooth doesn't merit a university, or perhaps Limerick shouldn't have gotten one since it's so close to both Cork and Galway, or that DCU was a mistake, but sadly, the current existance of UL, NUI, M, and DCU are massive factors against a university in Waterford, and I don't see how they'll be overcome.

stick-dan

They are making waterford closer to dublin in travelling time thats what the new road is sure and it links through the edge of kilkenny carlow kidare and i am not sure where else so all the south east should be relatively quickly interconnected.

Bards

According to the 9am news on WLRfm, the Port report will be released in full this week

Roen

Report released today clicky here.

AdMMM

Never before have I read something that says so much but means so little. Having read that, I now believe more than ever that the report was simply commissioned as a means to delay the application process.

For those who don't have the attention span to pour through 27 pages of a Leaving Cert quality report, it simply concludes that the Government can either do A, B, C or D. It gives no indication as to what option they think would be better for the IT, the region or the country but ironically recommend against Option D - Doing nothing.

So after two years of waiting, we finally learn that something should be done. Now there's progress.

Amazotheamazing

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

Never before have I read something that says so much but means so little. Having read that, I now believe more than ever that the report was simply commissioned as a means to delay the application process.

For those who don't have the attention span to pour through 27 pages of a Leaving Cert quality report, it simply concludes that the Government can either do A, B, C or D. It gives no indication as to what option they think would be better for the IT, the region or the country but ironically recommend against Option D - Doing nothing.

So after two years of waiting, we finally learn that something should be done. Now there's progress.

Pretty much sitting on the fence as much as possible.

I'm sure both sides will find points which support their own argument in it.

merlante

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Pretty much sitting on the fence as much as possible.

I'm sure both sides will find points which support their own argument in it.

The report is positive about WIT's standard, saying that it would not be out of place as a university in the UK or in Canada. It's positive about the affect it would have on the south east. It says that the cost of an upgrade would not be excessive, and that it would not have a significant affect on other institutions, universities or ITs, with the exception of Carlow IT. It says that it would also be beneficial to the institute, obviously enough. With the WIT being awarding a paltry €1.9m funding this week, compared with DCU's €21m, that kind of says it all.

The report is negative in that he has to work within government policy, and is not allowed to make recommendations that contradict or preempt it, which pretty much guarantees that the government will always have wiggle room to essentially do what it wants anyway.

Considering the OECD report in 2004 is basically government policy, and that report recommends that there be no further universities created in the state, he was never going to outright recommend an upgrade.

He basically says that there are grounds for an upgrade, that the case should be investigated further, but basically the government has to define what minimum requirements an institution should fulfill and give a clear statement about whether applications for university status will be entertained or not. The OECD report says no, but Section 9 of the Universities act 1998 allows for the creation of new universities. So which is it.

He ends by saying that whatever happens, the government should not just 'do nothing'. It should clarify the confusion about potential movements from the IoT to the university sector, and if it decides against upgrading WIT, it must provide the WIT something legitimate to aim for. Since it will expand, and is already conducting university level work, it must be given a clear role and a set of goals for the future.

The current situation where it is competing with universities but not allowed the funding or the scope of a university is intolerable. He points out that some of this was addressed by the Institutes of Technology Act of 2006, but there is some way to go yet.

All that aside, the fact is, the south east will continue to lag behind other large regions until there is some kind of upgrade; something that we can sell to the business community (at the very least) as a top tier institute.

Amazotheamazing

The report is a lot more negative than that, you're simply choosing to ignore it. That is to say, it's balanced, it is neither pro university status or anti it. It sits on the fence.

Btw, I didn't realise Waterford was only 100km from both Cork and Limerick, hardly an insurmountable distance for someone from the southest to travel to get third level education.

merlante

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The report is a lot more negative than that, you're simply choosing to ignore it. That is to say, it's balanced, it is neither pro university status or anti it. It sits on the fence.

Btw, I didn't realise Waterford was only 100km from both Cork and Limerick, hardly an insurmountable distance for someone from the southest to travel to get third level education.

The report is not negative at all regarding the WIT. There is not one negative comment in the whole document about the institution, or reason why it could not be a university. That says an awful lot in itself.

The only source of negativity in the document, and there is a lot of it, is surrounding whether it would be consistent with government policy or not. And the government can make whatever policy they want. Clearly the OECD report knocks the whole thing on its head, but if so, why ask Port?

The reality is the guy was given a pretty weak remit.

If you think I've oversold something, then say so, rather than casting vague aspersions.

Nolanger

SIF Cycle II funding (listed according to lead Institution)

Athlone Institute of Technology: €238,000
Cork Institute of Technology: €4,205,000
Dublin City University: €21,640,000
Dublin Institute of Technology: €4,385,000
Dundalk Institute of Technology: €1,988,000
Galway / Mayo Institute of Technology: €2,049,000
Institute of Technology, Blanchardstown: €515,000
Institute of Technology, Carlow: €2,039,000
Institutes of Technology Sector facilitated by Institutes of Technology Ireland: €9,961,000
University Sector facilitated by the Irish Universities Association: €5,459,000
Letterkenny Institute of Technology: €893,000
Limerick Institute of Technology: €878,000
National University of Ireland, Galway: €824,000
NUI Maynooth: €320,000
Trinity College Dublin: €7,029,000
University College Cork: €5,013,000
University College Dublin : €15,276,000
University of Limerick: €12,500,000
Waterford Institute of Technology: €1,903,000

Sully

Still reading through the doucment.. finding it on the bench, maybe a little more towards favouring WIT but the main problem seems to be government policy on this!

stick-dan

We therefore note that it would be helpful if the Government made a clear statement of its intentions with regard to potential future designations to avoid institutions and officials expending time on unsuccessful applications.

took this as the key point of the report myself. It is not fair, all arguements for and against aside, that WIT have spent so much time on this whole situation if it was an empty suggestion or promise made on the governments behalf at some stage.

merlante

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Btw, I didn't realise Waterford was only 100km from both Cork and Limerick, hardly an insurmountable distance for someone from the southest to travel to get third level education.

FYI:
Waterford - Limerick: 128km
Waterford - Cork: 126km

A fairly tough commute every morning wouldn't you say? If students have to actually move it doesn't matter so much where they move to. Sure we could just send all 3rd level students to the UK and just focus on research here!

dlofnep

merlante wrote: »

FYI:
Waterford - Limerick: 128km
Waterford - Cork: 126km

A fairly tough commute every morning wouldn't you say? If students have to actually move it doesn't matter so much where they move to. Sure we could just send all 3rd level students to the UK and just focus on research here!

Agreed, it's a 2 and a half hour - 3 hour drive. Work up the petrol costs for that for the week and you're living on beans on toast.

For those who can't afford to live away from home (ie: me) - it's not viable to go to either of these. Maybe if it was an hour drive, it wouldn't be too bad. But nearly 3 hours each way is too much of a commute.

mike65

Anyone see the News and Star article - Cork Road to be renamed university Road by plebiscite I think?

Thats the kind of Field of Dreams nonsense that makes people look silly rather than determined.

Mike.

Sully

mike65 wrote: »

Anyone see the News and Star article - Cork Road to be renamed university Road by plebiscite I think?

Thats the kind of Field of Dreams nonsense that makes people look silly rather than determined.

Mike.

Completely retarded idea.

JohnC.

But it is the road to the university...in Cork.

run_Forrest_run

Kahless wrote: »

But it is the road to the university...in Cork.

Amazotheamazing

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The baby boom of the 1970-early 1980's has passed, we simply don't need as many places anymore. Of course certain courses, medicine etc will always be sought after but in general, the urgency for places has passed.

Agreed!:)

merlante

merlante wrote: »

FYI:
Waterford - Limerick: 128km
Waterford - Cork: 126km

A fairly tough commute every morning wouldn't you say? If students have to actually move it doesn't matter so much where they move to. Sure we could just send all 3rd level students to the UK and just focus on research here!

Donegal to Galway?Way further than Waterford is to either Dublin,Cork or Limerick

merlante

Deleted User wrote: »

Donegal to Galway?Way further than Waterford is to either Dublin,Cork or Limerick

Yeah, but Derry is on the border!