WIT University

merlante · 15-02-2008 7:08pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ok, I'll spell it out, the reason Ireland doesn't need another university is because we have too many as it. Another university would further compromise the standard of the universities in Ireland (as someone pointed out, only Trinity is a "rated" university). It's nothing to do with the universities being anti-Waterford and everything to do with the university sector trying to stop the continual "dumbing down" of Irish third level institutions.

I don't see how you're struggling to understand this concept.

This is the root of the problem right here. We have 7 universities. You ask me to prove why 8 would be better than 7. I, on the other hand, am supposed to take it as a given that less universities would be better, or that another university would 'further' compromise the standard of universities in Ireland.

How many universities do we think we should have? 1, 3, 5? When you argue that WIT should not be upgraded, you're only arguing with people from the south east, but your basic position appears to be that 7 universities is not what you want either, you'd prefer to reduce the number. So if that is your argument, say so, and tell us how many universities there should be, and I'd say (although we won't see it on this board) that there would be a lot more opposition to your position.

You say that the standard of university education is being 'compromised' and 'dumbed down'. Where is you evidence for this? How many 'rated' universities do you think a sparsely populated country of 4.2 million people ought to have. Do you honestly expect us to have more than one or two? Is whether or not a university is rated among top universities in the world the sole criterion for determining the success of a university? What about providing degree level education to a region? What about driving a regional economy?

Do you think that reducing access to university education, which leads to lesser numbers holding degrees in 'the regions', to inject more cash into a select few institutions is a win win situation? What affect would this have on the national spatial strategy?

Getting back to the question of does Ireland need another university.

There may or may not be an economic advantage to the country to upgrading the WIT. It will rejuvinate the regional economy (which helps the state as a whole) and reduce the region's reliance on subsidies in the form of social welfare, grant aid, etc. (which helps the state as a whole), but on the other hand it would split the 3rd and 4th level education spend fractionally more, mitigating against economies of scale. As I said before, though, we should be
aiming the centralise university administration (e.g. one central administration for all the NUI Universities) rather than centralising universities geographically.

Causing internal inequalities and migrations of people (students) from one region to another could be another cause of inefficiency in the national economy.

At the end of the day, an international expert, Dr. Port, has submitted a report to the government. He has looked into this exact question in detail.

In terms of social benefits to the country, the state has a certain obligation to provide core services equally across the country. Although this may be beyond you if you see the world in sheer economic terms, our society and culture 'benefits' from being more fair and equitable. Does this mean that we put a university in every town? No. But if we have a certain distribution of universities at the moment, i.e. one for every half million or so people, that is situated at the centre of a populous region in a city which a certain critical mass, and there is one gaping exception to this distribution, then the situation should be rectified -- as a national as well as regional priority.

If you don't accept that what I've said amounts to any real benefit to the country as a whole -- minus the benefit to the south east, which would be massive -- then you probably don't think there are any benefits to any of the other universities either, except perhaps the select few that in your opinion should be turned into 'rated' universities.

Incidentally, Finland has one of the best education systems in the world, and it has a lot more than 7 universities, as well as the equivalent of an IT sector, for more or less the same population as Ireland. There is no rulebook out there that specifies the exact number of universities a country should have, or even how exactly a university should be constituted.

ec18 · 15-02-2008 7:16pm

what about norland? :P

stick-dan · 15-02-2008 8:21pm

Merlante you are the one missing the point no doubt.

"The idea of a university as i am sure you will agree with is that a university is a place of the highest standard of education available that students who are truly determined to succeed will strive to gain entry into. "

So we have seven universities in Ireland. Woop di Do!!!

The only university in Ireland is trinity the rest are glorified IT's fact. Trinity is the only university which would stand high in prestige. The rest all bow in it's shadow.

So you want WIT to become another glorified IT with University Status but NOT with university education? You earlier in the initial stages of the thread said that if WIT was to get university status it could attract top class lecturers.Reality check, compare the education faculty there to Trinity!My god you would want to be attracting a lot of top class minds to lecture there to match Trinity. Damn near the entire work force apart from a select few brilliant minds within WIT that are wasted there.

Come on like they are nowhere near ready.Have you not noticed that it is the current students of WIT on this thread saying it is not ready. It would be easy for us to push for university status for WIT so we may have a chance at university degrees but we truly believe it isn't ready.

conbob · 15-02-2008 10:46pm

im just wondering. at the end of the day. whats the difference between a university and an it?

Sully · 15-02-2008 10:52pm

conbob wrote: »

im just wondering. at the end of the day. whats the difference between a university and an it?

Employers have a tendency to take on Uni Students rather then IT Students. If I had a degree in Computer Science from an IT and stick-dan had it from a Uni and we applied for the same job - Dan would probably get it. Why, is beyond me.

Plus, Universities get more cash so they can expand more, offer better courses, look for higher grade lecturers as they can afford to pay them etc. It basically just improves what courses and lecturers can teach there, and offers better job opportunities to students.

There is a knock-on affect around the area.

conbob · 15-02-2008 10:55pm

Sully wrote: »

Employers have a tendency to take on Uni Students rather then IT Students. If I had a degree in Computer Science from an IT and stick-dan had it from a Uni and we applied for the same job - Dan would probably get it. Why, is beyond me.

Plus, Universities get more cash so they can expand more, offer better courses, look for higher grade lecturers as they can afford to pay them etc. It basically just improves what courses and lecturers can teach there, and offers better job opportunities to students.

There is a knock-on affect around the area.

ah i see. thanks

i was only thinkin there whether to go to n it or a uni... now i know which 1

Sully · 15-02-2008 10:58pm

Bare in mind some of the ITs are pretty good and are just as recognised as a Uni.

ec18 · 15-02-2008 11:17pm

WIT- exam results today-But they don't give you all of your results...yeah eveywhere else suffers the same problems

15-02-2008 11:29pm

merlante wrote: »

- To offer parity of educational opportunities to Waterford and the South East.
- To offer parity of educational investment to Waterford and the South East.
- To support the National Spatial Strategy, where Waterford must serve the same regional function as Cork, Limerick and Galway.
- To offer a level playing field in attracting foreign direct investment and high tech. industry.
- To offer non-technical degrees.
- To make third and fourth level education more accessible to the people of Waterford and the South East.
- To address socio-economic deficits extant in Waterford and the South East, including a lower than average number of degree holders in the region, lower than average incomes, less and lesser quality FDI into the region, by far the lowest number of business start-ups of the five cities, less employment opportunities, less tertiary investment, and so on.

And yes, if it halts the 'brain drain' or the glut of young middle class people leaving the city, all the better! Not only are they leaving, but their mammies and daddies are subsidising landlords, universities (capitation fees) and small business in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Dublin for 4 years, as if the economies of those cities weren't doing well enough as it was with the combined investment of a university, an IT and whatever private sector investment is brought along with them.

The WIT has three campuses (that I know of): the main campus on the Cork rd., the College st. campus and the new Carriganore west campus. All new buildings will be built in Carriganore. As to the Cork rd.'s location, DCU is built in the same sort of area, and nobody is saying it shouldn't be a university because of it. In fact, why you'd invent whole new unthought of arguments against the WIT being upgraded, I don't know.

What about Limerick's image incidentally? Not the best image in the world, but they have a university. I really don't get this business of Waterford people coming up with all these crazy extra reasons why the WIT shouldn't be upgraded when opponents of the upgrade have enough as it is. It would not be a big deal in terms of time and money (relatively speaking) to upgrade the WIT to a university, but it would be a massive deal to the local and regional economy. That's the bottom line. It has to happen.

By your rhetoric, then Sligo IT needs to be upgraded to a university too.

ec18 · 15-02-2008 11:46pm

merlante you keep mentioning carraignore campus....but there is nothing there for students yet....construction has only just started that won't be a viable alternative at least a year if not more

mayordenis · 16-02-2008 2:05am

judging by how quick the last few buildings have gone up it'll be a fully functional campus by the morning.

16-02-2008 2:50am

Sully wrote: »

Employers have a tendency to take on Uni Students rather then IT Students. If I had a degree in Computer Science from an IT and stick-dan had it from a Uni and we applied for the same job - Dan would probably get it. Why, is beyond me.

Thats simply not true......I'm in engineering and IT courses are often more pragmatic and so students from ITs are prefered to green uni grads.

merlante · 16-02-2008 3:36am

stick-dan wrote: »

Merlante you are the one missing the point no doubt.

"The idea of a university as i am sure you will agree with is that a university is a place of the highest standard of education available that students who are truly determined to succeed will strive to gain entry into. "

So we have seven universities in Ireland. Woop di Do!!!

The only university in Ireland is trinity the rest are glorified IT's fact. Trinity is the only university which would stand high in prestige. The rest all bow in it's shadow.

So you want WIT to become another glorified IT with University Status but NOT with university education? You earlier in the initial stages of the thread said that if WIT was to get university status it could attract top class lecturers.Reality check, compare the education faculty there to Trinity!My god you would want to be attracting a lot of top class minds to lecture there to match Trinity. Damn near the entire work force apart from a select few brilliant minds within WIT that are wasted there.

Come on like they are nowhere near ready.Have you not noticed that it is the current students of WIT on this thread saying it is not ready. It would be easy for us to push for university status for WIT so we may have a chance at university degrees but we truly believe it isn't ready.

If your 'glorified IT' can teach all courses to all levels, including Arts courses, and have equal access to research funding, and in all other ways compete with 'glorified ITs' in other regions, then I'll take your 'glorified IT' over the current IT any day, as will Limerick, Galway, Maynooth, DCU, etc.

Being recognised internationally is only one of many criteria that make a good university. Our 'glorified ITs' and regular ITs have been supplying graduates to blue chip US companies in Ireland, such as Intel, Microsoft, etc. for many years now, and long may that continue. Germany has very few acknowledged 'world class' universities, but only a fool would write off German third level education.

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that Trinity is not the best college in Ireland to study certain subjects, which some of the 'glorified ITs' do far better. But hey, who cares about good education, it's all about the name right? And in any case, all universities in Ireland attract top class academics, some more than others it's true, but all of them have more scope to do so than the WIT at the moment.

The IT is as ready as DCU or UL or NUIM were when they were upgraded. I don't care what a few bitter students have to say about the IT. I know better.

The reality of the matter is, whether or not the WIT is upgraded has very little to do with the quality of the WIT, which already surpasses what is expected of an IT, it will be a political decision informed by mainly demographic and strategic concerns.

merlante · 16-02-2008 3:41am

Deleted User wrote: »

By your rhetoric, then Sligo IT needs to be upgraded to a university too.

No, Sligo is a much smaller centre, which is in population decline, in a much smaller, much more sparsely populated region. The demographic argument for a university in Waterford and the south east is more compelling than the arguments for universities in the Mid west, Maynooth or DCU. Sligo on the other hand might warrant a university in about 150 years time if things go their way.

16-02-2008 3:57am

merlante wrote: »

No, Sligo is a much smaller centre, which is in population decline, in a much smaller, much more sparsely populated region. The demographic argument for a university in Waterford and the south east is more compelling than the arguments for universities in the Mid west, Maynooth or DCU. Sligo on the other hand might warrant a university in about 150 years time if things go their way.

Population decline in the north west?Even Leitrim's population increased in the last census

WIT:Let's face it,it does well for an IT but would it really adapt to being an university?

merlante · 16-02-2008 1:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Population decline in the north west?Even Leitrim's population increased in the last census

WIT:Let's face it,it does well for an IT but would it really adapt to being an university?

The population of Sligo town:
2002: 19,735
2006: 19,402

Not a huge decrease it's true, but when the country as a whole grew by around 8% over those four years, it's pretty bad.

Waterford's population, in comparison, was 49,213 in 2006, and Tramore, a few miles outside the city, is already half the size of Sligo at 9,634, and growing at about 20% every 5 years.

More importantly, the population of the north west is nothing near that of the south east.

The WIT could adapt to being university within a relatively short time frame. It's research output in terms of generated research funding is just slightly less than NUI Maynooth. It has the physical space for expansion with the new Carriganore, west campus. It's has the same student numbers as DCU and more than NUI Maynooth, although the student profile would change with an upgrade, with certs and diplomas likely moving to Carlow or Wexford, and more degrees in Waterford. WIT is at least as developed as the NHIED would have been when it was upgraded to DCU. It can already award degrees, masters and phds, and it is pushing the boundaries on what courses it can run, but is heavily restricted by the IT designation.

It is operating above and beyond it's IT remit already, and could very quickly operate at a university level if the funding and powers of a university were made available to it. The NIHEs in Dublin and Limerick were given 5 years to reach the required standard when they were upgraded to DCU and UL respectively in 1989. Waterford is at least at the same standard today.

Nolanger · 16-02-2008 1:17pm

stick-dan · 16-02-2008 1:59pm

merlante wrote: »

If your 'glorified IT' can teach all courses to all levels, including Arts courses, and have equal access to research funding, and in all other ways compete with 'glorified ITs' in other regions, then I'll take your 'glorified IT' over the current IT any day, as will Limerick, Galway, Maynooth, DCU, etc.

Being recognised internationally is only one of many criteria that make a good university. Our 'glorified ITs' and regular ITs have been supplying graduates to blue chip US companies in Ireland, such as Intel, Microsoft, etc. for many years now, and long may that continue. Germany has very few acknowledged 'world class' universities, but only a fool would write off German third level education.

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that Trinity is not the best college in Ireland to study certain subjects, which some of the 'glorified ITs' do far better. But hey, who cares about good education, it's all about the name right? And in any case, all universities in Ireland attract top class academics, some more than others it's true, but all of them have more scope to do so than the WIT at the moment.

The IT is as ready as DCU or UL or NUIM were when they were upgraded. I don't care what a few bitter students have to say about the IT. I know better.

The reality of the matter is, whether or not the WIT is upgraded has very little to do with the quality of the WIT, which already surpasses what is expected of an IT, it will be a political decision informed by mainly demographic and strategic concerns.

Any more contradictions you would like to add merlante? Read your last line of that post.The quality of WIT has everything to do with weather WIT is ready to be upgraded yet. Come on like be realistic. What, you want WIT to be upgraded just because it will help the community and not help bring a higher standard of education like the purpose of a university is supposed to do?Is that what you would like to see? Get real and get WIT it.:)

merlante wrote: »

If your 'glorified IT' can teach all courses to all levels, including Arts courses, and have equal access to research funding, and in all other ways compete with 'glorified ITs' in other regions, then I'll take your 'glorified IT' over the current IT any day, as will Limerick, Galway, Maynooth, DCU, etc.

Being recognised internationally is only one of many criteria that make a good university. Our 'glorified ITs' and regular ITs have been supplying graduates to blue chip US companies in Ireland, such as Intel, Microsoft, etc. for many years now, and long may that continue. Germany has very few acknowledged 'world class' universities, but only a fool would write off German third level education.

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that Trinity is not the best college in Ireland to study certain subjects, which some of the 'glorified ITs' do far better. But hey, who cares about good education, it's all about the name right? And in any case, all universities in Ireland attract top class academics, some more than others it's true, but all of them have more scope to do so than the WIT at the moment.

The IT is as ready as DCU or UL or NUIM were when they were upgraded. I don't care what a few bitter students have to say about the IT. I know better.

The reality of the matter is, whether or not the WIT is upgraded has very little to do with the quality of the WIT, which already surpasses what is expected of an IT, it will be a political decision informed by mainly demographic and strategic concerns.

Right so point listened to there. But now go off and do some research and tell me what university in ireland offers a great education in all areas?? Trinity was not designed to offer a great education in all areas. It was designed to offer superb education in the areas it would be covering. For trinity to expand to cover other areas just to provide an all round coverage of subjects would be wrong it would dilute the quality of the university itself.

I think merlante we both agree on one thing. Leaving aside a timeline we both want WIT at some stage to be a university.:D*(personally i think its not ready and you do that is our only difference of opinion.)

But i have asked the following question in this thread already. What are the cold hard facts and findings that have been conducted that suggest WIT is so good. Leave aside all the benefit to the town, the south east ,etc. What is so great about the Institution itself that warrants it to be a university. I want to know that answer.Enlighten me please.:)

ec18 · 16-02-2008 2:10pm

mayordenis wrote: »

judging by how quick the last few buildings have gone up it'll be a fully functional campus by the morning.

But at the moment there is only one building out there

merlante wrote: »

I don't care what a few bitter students have to say about the IT. I know better.

The reality of the matter is, whether or not the WIT is upgraded has very little to do with the quality of the WIT,.

I'm sorry but how exactly am I bitter?...any pray tell almighty merlante what qualifies you to say that you know better...I am currently in the WIT and deal with the administration, so my opinion is first hand and based from experience but what are you basing yours on...some god given that rite you believe waterford has to a university?....because for the past few days you've been like a broken needle....missing the point.

Nolanger wrote: »

all that shows that Waterford is not the top IT in Ireland and gives further reason for not upgrading it

fricatus · 16-02-2008 3:52pm

ec18 wrote: »

all that shows that Waterford is not the top IT in Ireland and gives further reason for not upgrading it

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

First of all, that "league table" has been pasted in there with no commentary whatsoever on what statistical bases have been used for the awarding of points. That's not to question the methodology of the authors, just to say that Nolanger, perhaps you might paste that in as well, so as we're not debating it in a vacuum.

Secondly, ec18, take a look at the actual figures. The points difference on this table between WIT and the top IT in the country, DIT, is actually very little.

To illustrate my point, if DIT gained 30 points on its current score, it would stay in its current position of 8th on the table, whereas if it lost 30 points, it would drop to 11th, with Waterford, Galway and Cork moving up.

I venture to say that the increase in funding that would come from university designation would push WIT quickly up into UL/NUIM territory, in the areas of staff/student ratios and research. Similarly, the increase in prestige (of the "university" title) would increase the score in the area of LC points, and probably in terms of firsts/2:1s and completion (due to a higher percentage of more motivated students).

Deleted User wrote: »

By your rhetoric, then Sligo IT needs to be upgraded to a university too.

On this point I disagree with Merlante... an upgrade of Sligo to university level would be a very good thing in spatial and socio-economic terms. However, if there are arguments against an upgrade for Waterford, then these are only amplified in the case of Sligo.

stick-dan wrote: »

Are you Actually in the college at the moment because i am as is ec18. We both encountered two different major mess-ups this year so far in conjunction with the college and that's only this year. It is stupid for you to be insisting that ec18 means that we can't be upgrading the college due to the canteen or paint. We are not that fickle. The college is not ready at the moment.As was said earlier in the thread the cork road campus would not be capable to cope with a large influx of would be university students if WIT was granted university status right now.

No I'm not, stick-dan, I'm a 34-year-old with a mortgage, so I have to work all the hours God sends me so as to cope

But I am a graduate of WRTC, as it was, and proud to say so. I graduated in 1995, and by all accounts, the leaps forward that WIT has taken since then are staggering. A cousin of mine and another very good friend are lecturers there, and were students there back in the day, and they back this up.

Myself, I don't have any link with the place, other than it being my alma mater, but even to drive by and see the concentration of buildings on the Cork Road campus is proof that massive progress has been made since my time there. When I left, all that was there was the main building (the third floor had just been completed), the other building (the one with the Well) across the bridge, and the student residences over towards Browne's Road. We had a crappy prefab library at the back of the Well that we called "the Fridge".

The influx of students that you talk about is a red herring: there is a quota on student numbers in each course and that can be varied as resources permit. Student numbers will stay the same, or more likely, rise at the same rate as at present; what will change is that points for each course will rise.

A slight correction: I didn't mention paint, I mentioned parking, canteen and IT services as being some bugbears that while important, should not stand in the way of an upgrade.

However, you're talking about two major mess-ups this year that somehow prove that WIT is not ready for an upgrade. I'm not expecting you to name names and go into detail, but can you give us an idea of what kind of mess-ups we're talking about? How do they demonstrate that WIT should not be upgraded? Do these simply not happen in TCD, UCG, etc., or do we just not hear about them?

JohnC. · 16-02-2008 5:55pm

ec18 wrote: »

merlante you keep mentioning carraignore campus....but there is nothing there for students yet....construction has only just started that won't be a viable alternative at least a year if not more

Surely that means nothing as even if they got the upgrade, it wouldn't actually happen for a while and Carraiganore will be running before then?

Nolanger · 16-02-2008 8:08pm

Ranked according to marks scored in six key performance areas:

1
Average points for entry - The median Leaving Certificate points obtained by honours degreecourse entrants, weighted by the latest data on the number of students on each course.

2
Research - A measure of research efficiency, which compares competitive research funding income in 2007 with the number of full-time equivalent academic staff.

3
Employment - The percentage of graduates known to be seeking employment six months after graduation.

4
Firsts/2:1s - The percentage of highest-quality degrees.

5
Student-staff ratio - Full-time and part-time students.

6
Completion rates The percentage of entrants who completed courses for which they enrolled.

OTHER INDICATORS IN THE PROFILES
Teaching staff
Sports facilities
Accommodation

blanko · 16-02-2008 8:10pm

2007 spend on higher education by city
Dublin €573m
Cork €191m
Limerick €147m
Galway €142m
Waterford €49m

Source http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/waterford-%E2%80%98severely-disadvantaged-brian-oshea/

Here is some (biased) background to the upgrading debate:
There are two funding pools for higher education in Ireland. University and IoT. Dublin is a capital city with almost 1.5 million people using the city. Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford have functionally similar populations (Cork a little bigger than the rest). Limerick, Galway and Waterford all have a similar population using the city daily. Waterford as a community is divided into five political regions (County Waterford run from Dungarvan, South Kilkenny, South Wexford, South Tipp) which have traditionally pulled in a different direction. Historically there were two university level institutions in Waterford (St Johns college and the De La Salle College in Faithlegg) which are both closed. When the NUI was established the college that should have been located in Waterford was established in the smaller and poorer city of Galway to support the Irish language.

The upgrading is about achieving parity of spending within the region and bringing tertiary participation in the South East up to national levels. The young people of the south east are being disadvantaged by this underspending- there parents tax money is subsidising universities in other locations. The staging costs of sending a child to UCC, UCD or the others is of the region of €10,000 per year in excess of having them live at home. This is a form of stealth tax on the middle class children of the south east. not every town can have a university, and many students choose to live away from home but there are over 500,000 people living within commuting distance of WIT and this is a sufficiently big enough pool to need and support a university.

Since 1969, when the IoT sector was established, WIT has been very well run, on very very limited resources and now is bigger than two Irish Universities. A number of its courses recruit at higher points than some similar courses in Universities. Some of the IoT's with similar budgets have done just as well (with different market conditions)- GMIT and CIT are obviously shaped by the universities on their doorstep- but both are very well run. This is often because they have a more modern governance structures than universities (as well as a broader stakeholder focus). Others have simply not performed as well for their communities and if better run, could now be knocking on the door of university status if they had a regional need for one.

Reasons not to fund a university in the region are mixed. The strongest argument is that some of the Irish Universities are very weak (Maynooth and DCU) and more competition would further hurt them. But WIT is in a very different geographic space and these colleges are not succeeding because they are failing to recruit at leaving certificate- not because they are under funded. It is simply not good enough to hold up a university case until these failing universities get better strategic direction.

An argument is also being made about international university league tables. These league tables are made up on the back of an envelope by people who have never visited the universities they are judging and certainly not considering the national function of the university. Education is about the needs of the community paying for the service and Irish people have been very well served by their system of education. Rigorous benchmarking against education systems in other countries is an interesting exercise- but is only part of the process of deciding what is best for Ireland.

The courses in WIT are as good as you will find anywhere else- the lecturers are paid the same money as all the other IoT's, which is higher than the teaching grades in Universities. Despite the new buildings at WIT- relatively little is being spent on the campus (UCC's library extension cost the same as WIT's five new buildings in the last decade). There are as many staff with PhDs as elsewhere. The issue is around scale- not enough young people in the south east go to college and WIT cannot take any more people on their courses without more staff, more library space, more ICT resources and more lecture rooms. There is not enough money, space or lecturers time to recruit all the good research students (a lot of 1h graduates do research in other universities- and often leave the region for good). The list of activities that the college should be doing and are not is really long- for example it has no broad based Arts degree (with is usually around 25% of a well balanced university).

Thanks for allowing that rant. I should note that I work in WIT, and have worked in a number of other colleges and universities in Ireland.

merlante · 16-02-2008 8:21pm

stick-dan wrote: »

Any more contradictions you would like to add merlante? Read your last line of that post.The quality of WIT has everything to do with weather WIT is ready to be upgraded yet. Come on like be realistic. What, you want WIT to be upgraded just because it will help the community and not help bring a higher standard of education like the purpose of a university is supposed to do?Is that what you would like to see? Get real and get WIT it.:)

I don't see any contradiction. The fact is that there should be a university in Waterford on demographic and spatial grounds. The fact that there is a high performing IT there that a university can be based on is a bonus.

I would like to see the WIT get upgraded because it would help the entire region and arguably the country, and because it would allow Waterford to teach Arts courses and a higher standard of education (due to the increased funding and powers of a university).

stick-dan wrote: »

Right so point listened to there. But now go off and do some research and tell me what university in ireland offers a great education in all areas??

None, you have to go to England for that.

stick-dan wrote: »

Trinity was not designed to offer a great education in all areas. It was designed to offer superb education in the areas it would be covering. For trinity to expand to cover other areas just to provide an all round coverage of subjects would be wrong it would dilute the quality of the university itself.

Sure, that's my point, so the 'glorified ITs' do have a point then: they pick up the slack on the courses that Trinity aren't interested in; they provide a high standard of education, which is a good thing even if they are not among the top universities in the world.

We are only a country of 4.2 million people after all, how many world class universities do you think we should have. Even one is not bad. But one university is not going to look after the brass tacks of educating our populace.

stick-dan wrote: »

I think merlante we both agree on one thing. Leaving aside a timeline we both want WIT at some stage to be a university.:D*(personally i think its not ready and you do that is our only difference of opinion.)

Well that's something!

stick-dan wrote: »

But i have asked the following question in this thread already. What are the cold hard facts and findings that have been conducted that suggest WIT is so good. Leave aside all the benefit to the town, the south east ,etc. What is so great about the Institution itself that warrants it to be a university. I want to know that answer.Enlighten me please.:)

As I said before, I think there should be a university in Waterford irregardless of whether there was an IT to upgrade there or not, but the fact that there is a high performing IT there is more than meeting the government half way.

I already posted about 'what is so great about the institution' yesterday.

stick-dan · 16-02-2008 8:29pm

fricatus wrote: »

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

No I'm not, stick-dan, I'm a 34-year-old with a mortgage, so I have to work all the hours God sends me so as to cope

But I am a graduate of WRTC, as it was, and proud to say so. I graduated in 1995, and by all accounts, the leaps forward that WIT has taken since then are staggering. A cousin of mine and another very good friend are lecturers there, and were students there back in the day, and they back this up.

Myself, I don't have any link with the place, other than it being my alma mater, but even to drive by and see the concentration of buildings on the Cork Road campus is proof that massive progress has been made since my time there. When I left, all that was there was the main building (the third floor had just been completed), the other building (the one with the Well) across the bridge, and the student residences over towards Browne's Road. We had a crappy prefab library at the back of the Well that we called "the Fridge".

The influx of students that you talk about is a red herring: there is a quota on student numbers in each course and that can be varied as resources permit. Student numbers will stay the same, or more likely, rise at the same rate as at present; what will change is that points for each course will rise.

However, you're talking about two major mess-ups this year that somehow prove that WIT is not ready for an upgrade. I'm not expecting you to name names and go into detail, but can you give us an idea of what kind of mess-ups we're talking about? How do they demonstrate that WIT should not be upgraded? Do these simply not happen in TCD, UCG, etc., or do we just not hear about them?

Now you are twisting my words i never said that these two mess ups that happened in wit were the sole grounds for preventing WIT from being a University. On no basis did i mean that and it is wrong for you to suggest so. These mess ups involve very important matters, for example one of the particular mess ups involved most of the IT courses suffering a hugely unfair timetable for their exams this year because WIT left all the scheduling to a last minute job that then got messed up because of a system failure. While this may not seem in any way substantial enough to be a claim it certainly did for at least 50 students i know. This mix up lead a good few IT courses to suffer timetables that were unbelieveably unfair. For all the 2nd Year IT courses the second week of the exams consisted on four exams being held in four days ,i.e. Tuesday 5pm then Wednesday 9am. This was hugely unfair. Our class had particular students in it that had mothers who had to collect their children then bring them kids to training,shopping whatever after a 5pm exam and were then expected to study for an exam at 9am the next morning. Unheard of and totally unacceptable. An appeal was made before christmas to get the timetable changed and we were told practically to either like it or lump it. Not very organised now is it? But that is only one case lets go again. Lets talk about on exam results day how results weren't available for some individuals. Let's talk about physics labs not being equipped enough to provide students with the tool they need to complete experiments. Let's talk about everything. Let's talk about dodgy wireless, aging technology, leaking roofs, lack of parking, Now you'll argue back that all these will be fixed or rectified and maybe you're right. But all these minor and so not so minor problems add up to a not so perfect environment in WIT. The old saying goes "A strong foundation is the key to success". Basically even though you disagree obviously and merlante obviously disagrees also, these problems should be sorted before we go for university status. Get everything running like clockwork then when you push for university status they have no grounds to object. Everyone here on the board wants WIT to have university status just at different times. And yes the development is staggering i agree. But we still have the prefabs there. Surely turning the prefabs into solid structures would have been more benefit than a health promotion and tourism building that could go unused largely if interest in said courses was to drop. Oh and trust me the third floor that was been finished when you were there is no great accomplishment by no means. Alot of the windows are even leaking up there leaving a rather stale smell around the waiting area and the floor feels like it is about to fall asunder so lets scrap that from the great development list also.Maybe WIT should push for more funding than push for university status. That would help the IT alot. I think it is very unfair it is given so little funding.

merlante · 16-02-2008 8:53pm

ec18 wrote: »

But at the moment there is only one building out there

I'm sorry but how exactly am I bitter?...any pray tell almighty merlante what qualifies you to say that you know better...I am currently in the WIT and deal with the administration, so my opinion is first hand and based from experience but what are you basing yours on...some god given that rite you believe waterford has to a university?....because for the past few days you've been like a broken needle....missing the point.

all that shows that Waterford is not the top IT in Ireland and gives further reason for not upgrading it

My opinion is also first hand and based on experience, but I'd rather not get into that. You sound pretty bitter to me, like the WIT killed your dog or something, or maybe like I killed your dog.

Those metrics used in that league table would not really sway me to be honest. I think they're a pretty poor gauge of an institution.

1. - Average points for entry, is a good indicator of demand, but other things such as location and population densities are bigger factors than reputation when it comes to demand. It is a fact that most people go to the institution nearest them, unless they want to go to a university and there is not one in the region.

It is also a little known fact that institutes frequently alter the number of places available on a course at the last minute in order to keep points high when demand falls off dramatically. DCU was caught doing this, but I think they all do it. You can reduce the number of places all you want, and the point requirements will go up.

2. - If 2. is measured correctly then it is a good metric, except that ITs are not supposed to be doing serious research. IT's that have a good score here are actually breaking the rules -- and are to be congratulated for doing so.

3. - This metric says far more about the local economy than about the college. It is only useful in cities where there are more than one institution in the same job market to compete, but pointless where you have 1 institution in a region.

4. - This is a total non-metric. Most colleges use relative marking, which means that graduating students are distributed across a 'bell curve' in terms of grades. That means that you have more or less the same number of top grades every year. If one college is more generous statistically than another it says nothing about the quality of the institute, just their internal housekeeping.

5. - Staff student ratios are good, but often colleges only have good ratios because they are expanding quickly, i.e. staff are employed in a department from day one, whereas often it takes a few years to build up the student numbers. You have to invest in advance of students. Also, often colleges that are struggling to attract students have low ratios for obvious reasons.

6. - Completion rates are the most dodgy metrics for an institute imaginable. In order to score highly in this 'pseudo metric' colleges are under real pressure to pass students who should be failing. For this reason, completion rates are meaningless, because colleges that try to do the right thing by keeping standards up score badly in it.

Better judgement for institutions would be as follows:
1. Research output in terms of a) conference/journal papers produced, and b) funding raised.
2. Some kind of measure of internal administrative efficiency.
3. Overall evaluation by external consultants.
4. The achievements of the staff.
5. Value for money.
6. Some kind of evaluation of the success of alumni.
and so on.

Sully · 16-02-2008 9:37pm

Right, is this topic going anywhere? Or are we going around in circles?

ec18 and stick-dan are students in the present day. As am I. Like other (not all) students in the WIT, at present, they do not feel WIT is really ready for University. It deserves to be, but not just yet. There is still a lot going on and I think until things are somewhat more organised - it should not become a University.

I personally don't think any of the Unis in Ireland are anything special. I think we got it all wrong when it comes to what a Uni should be. WIT has potential, but I would like it to turn out to be a very good college: offering great courses, great people lecturing in the courses, less of the problems which affect how the courses are run, great facilities that actually work and offering a range of benefits to the South-East and the students who take part in the courses.

I think your making some interesting points merlante, and you have your opinion as do others. Who has the right take on things? Who knows.

Sully · 16-02-2008 9:37pm

Moonbaby wrote: »

Thats simply not true......I'm in engineering and IT courses are often more pragmatic and so students from ITs are prefered to green uni grads.

It is true in the majority of courses. Its a fact of life really.

merlante · 16-02-2008 9:59pm

Sully wrote: »

Right, is this topic going anywhere? Or are we going around in circles?

ec18 and stick-dan are students in the present day. As am I. Like other (not all) students in the WIT, at present, they do not feel WIT is really ready for University. It deserves to be, but not just yet. There is still a lot going on and I think until things are somewhat more organised - it should not become a University.

I personally don't think any of the Unis in Ireland are anything special. I think we got it all wrong when it comes to what a Uni should be. WIT has potential, but I would like it to turn out to be a very good college: offering great courses, great people lecturing in the courses, less of the problems which affect how the courses are run, great facilities that actually work and offering a range of benefits to the South-East and the students who take part in the courses.

I think your making some interesting points merlante, and you have your opinion as do others. Who has the right take on things? Who knows.

I think if we are going to restate our opinions we are getting nowhere. There is a lot that can be said objectively however. But I get annoyed when I see statements like 'WIT should not be upgraded' as opposed to 'in my opinion WIT should not be upgraded' because I don't see any objective reasons why the WIT should definitely not be upgraded (only people's personal opinions).

I agree with your opinion on Irish universities. They tend not to be the institutions you expect them to be. They are more like an extension of secondary school. But be that as it may, we need the WIT in the same bracket in order for Waterford and the south east to establish itself on an equal footing with other regions. A lot of reports have highlighted the lack of a university as being the source of much of our problems. I honestly don't think there is much of a gap between the WIT and the universities, and I think the upgrade would plug the gap quickly enough.

The thing is, an upgrade would take years to kick in, plenty of time to sort out all of the problems you've mentioned. The institute could then forge ahead with renewed purpose, whereas now there is not much room left for expansion, and as far as some people are concerned, it has already gone too far (e.g. in terms of the amount of research that is conducted and the fact it can award masters and phds).

I feel that if we don't get this sorted now, we'll have to wait a generation before we get another opportunity. The WIT is more or less there, sure there are problems, but my worry is that if we take time out to patch those problems we will miss our window. In an ideal world that is what we'd do, but this is not an ideal world. This issue is sadly a political one so we do not have the luxury of picking a date.

17-02-2008 12:49am

Sully wrote: »

It is true in the majority of courses. Its a fact of life really.

Give me a real life example. I know people from all walks, and from their expierences and the backgrounds of their colleagues I don't think that is true at all.
At the end of the day a degree is just a entry requirement to a profession.
They don't have high expectations of a graduate and after that your based on your work expierence. Where your degree is from and what grade you achieve is rarely relevant. IMO.

WIT University

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