WIT University

blanko · 29-02-2008 1:53pm

The Port report confirmed what we already know. WIT is performing at a university level, the region needs a university and the cost of a university in the south east is modest. It also noted that demographics indicate that we are at the bottom of a decline and numbers in higher education in Ireland should double by 2020. It noted that it was neither sustainable nor practical to commute to Dublin or Cork from most of the South East.

Clearly Carlow is an import player in whatever happens to Waterford, but WIT can not apply on Carlow's behalf. WIT submission was silent on Carlow, leaving it open to dialog with the department and WIT in its own interest- either becomign part of a University of the South East (as WIT would become) or retaining its status as an IoT.

Rather obviously it also noted that the other universities would not want WIT to become a university, but there is no specific argument put down.

ec18 · 05-03-2008 4:09pm

I have a question..Would you be angry if the Govt decided to build a brand new university for the south east instead of upgrading WIT?.....(please respond YES or NO)

merlante · 05-03-2008 6:24pm

ec18 wrote: »

I have a question..Would you be angry if the Govt decided to build a brand new university for the south east instead of upgrading WIT?.....(please respond YES or NO)

That's what we were originally campaigning for for decades, until it became apparent that a brand new university was not going to happen, and that the WIT was starting to get close.

So definitely: NO.

Even the current campaign is for a 'university of the south east'. WIT's upgrade application is a related but different thing.

Sully · 06-03-2008 12:50pm

merlante: Did you write in a letter to the editor in this weeks Munster? If so, nice work!

merlante · 06-03-2008 1:55pm

Sully wrote: »

merlante: Did you write in a letter to the editor in this weeks Munster? If so, nice work!

No, but I know a man who did.

blanko · 06-03-2008 6:43pm

Yes- I would be upset if the government established a green field university. The SE needs a university and it would be cheaper and sensible to use the existing university like institution. Not using the investment in WIT would be really stupid.

That said, I would not mind if it meant folding WIT into another structure, joining it with other IoTs or merging it with an existing university. I would not object if new management or new management structures were brought in. I would not object if the college was split with some becoming a part of a new university and some remaining as a IoT.

In short I want a university in the south east not because it would be good for the WIT and those working there- universities have lower salaries at the bottom of the scale (where most working lecturers reside but they have a handful of highly paid professorships) and much shorter holidays for staff. Becoming a university would involve a considerable amount of work and would be uncomfortable for many working in WIT- but the region needs it. The young people of the south east must be given the investment that is being made in the other regions in Ireland.

Minto · 06-03-2008 7:30pm

Sully wrote: »

merlante: Did you write in a letter to the editor in this weeks Munster? If so, nice work!

I don't buy the munster, any chance of a scan Sully?

Sully · 06-03-2008 7:54pm

Minto wrote: »

I don't buy the munster, any chance of a scan Sully?

I don't buy it either

ec18 has the "Campus Corner" in it also.

It will be on the website on Friday I do believe (the paper in general).

Ri na hEireann · 10-03-2008 5:19pm

Well what does everyone think of the press conference by Brian Hayes the Fine Gael Spokesman for Education?
Personally I think its good to finally have the second biggest party in the Dáil actively supporting the WIT cause although it probably would have done Fine Gael more favours to have come to this view before the general election.
However Brian Hayes has only been in the position for 7months. It's a welcome development. It can only heap more pressure onto the government and force them to voice their stance on this issue. If they don't at least we know the alternative is willing to deliver a university to WIT and the south east.
This is something we can really use to keep the pressure on the government. We need our local representative to rally around this view and get the neccessary result for the good of the region.

bf1 · 10-03-2008 6:49pm

Munster Express Letter:
http://www.munster-express.ie/letters-to-the-editor/waterfords-university-status/

Friends of University for the South East
www.se4u.org

merlante · 11-03-2008 1:36am

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Well what does everyone think of the press conference by Brian Hayes the Fine Gael Spokesman for Education?
Personally I think its good to finally have the second biggest party in the Dáil actively supporting the WIT cause although it probably would have done Fine Gael more favours to have come to this view before the general election.
However Brian Hayes has only been in the position for 7months. It's a welcome development. It can only heap more pressure onto the government and force them to voice their stance on this issue. If they don't at least we know the alternative is willing to deliver a university to WIT and the south east.
This is something we can really use to keep the pressure on the government. We need our local representative to rally around this view and get the neccessary result for the good of the region.

Overall it's good news. The only problem is that we are being lumped in with the DIT, which does not have the same regional argument as the WIT for upgrade. Namely, that the south east needs a university but Dublin/East doesn't. As good as the DIT is, there is just no strategic justification for upgrading it.

This will put the other parties under pressure to deliver a university for the south east. I for one would vote FG because of this. Labour apparently have had the upgrade on their manifesto as well, so it looks like a FG/Lab coalition could possibly deliver what FF/GP/PD may deny. Still, we have a battle to win against the current government first.

Ri na hEireann · 11-03-2008 12:48pm

I don't really mind being dumped in with DIT to be honest, at least this is a definative position. Brian Hayes seemed more positive about it, then I daresay, our own Minister Cullen.
The DIT clause isn't too much of an issue, because as far as I understand that's it as far as designating universities goes from Fine Gaels perspective. I think the prospect of an IT sector modelled on the NUI system would also be a welcome revamp. It will in a way ensure IT's serve their purpose and don't try and stray from their original mission.
I hope this doesn't remain a Fine Gael policy and that the rest of the Waterford people can get behind it including our FF representatives. This issue is too important to allow it linger for any longer.

stick-dan · 13-03-2008 11:40am

Cork Institute of Technology (CIT) have just applied for university status.Just to let you know. I was informed ofthis by MaximumLeo. Appartently some of the lecturers in the college are going mental over this.The link is here

merlante · 13-03-2008 12:08pm

stick-dan wrote: »

Cork Institute of Technology (CIT) have just applied for university status.Just to let you know. I was informed ofthis by MaximumLeo. Appartently some of the lecturers in the college are going mental over this.The link is here

One the one hand, this will make people's blood boil, because as we all know, there is already a university in Cork, and a very prominent and venerable one at that. And as we all know, the 3rd level education spend in the Southern region far outstrips that of the South East region.

On the other hand, though, you can't blame them for trying.

CIT will never be upgraded to a university because there is no regional argument for another university in the south. Unfortunately, the more 'more too' applications for university status that we have, the less chance that any of them will be upgraded.

The south east is the only large, populous region without a university. That's no university for 460,000 people. Dublin/East, the South, the mid-West, and the West all have about 1 university for every 400-500,000 people. That's all we want in the South East. The applications by DIT and CIT are spurious in this regard. Just because an IT is up to a particular standard does not mean that it should be upgraded to a university. It that were the case, we would one day have no ITs and all universities, and this mix would not cater for our national skills need.

stick-dan · 13-03-2008 12:11pm

Don't shoot the messenger is all i'm saying was brought to my attention today and thought it might interest ya!:D

mad man · 13-03-2008 12:19pm

I believe this is a tactical move by Cork IT to hinder Waterfords application rather than a motivation to actually become a University.They are exploiting the fear expressed in the Port report that there would be "me too" applications emanating from Waterford being granted University status.

Cork IT has begrudged Waterfords application for enhanced status for a long time.They made a statement some time ago saying they would be against it.We all remeber the resentful behaviour of their students union when Waterford was upgraded to IT status.It was supposed to be the only one.It was Corks interference that scupperd that project.

This is just Cork IT begrudgery.It was to be expected.

stick-dan · 13-03-2008 12:26pm

I did myself at the start of this thread make my point that i did not think waterford was ready for uni status and i stand by that but this is not the point here. The point here being is that as said above by madman any institute is going to apply now for university status. From people i have being engaging today over this topic with so far the general concensus is that CIT is behind waterford with regard to its quality overall. As i have never been there i cannot declare this as fact but i would come to the conclusion that if this was to be correct then i would be firmly be against CIT even considering themselves as good enough let alone appling for an improved status. Next you'll have an application from carlow!Mark my words

mad man · 13-03-2008 1:25pm

stick-dan wrote: »

I did myself at the start of this thread make my point that i did not think waterford was ready for uni status and i stand by that but this is not the point here. The point here being is that as said above by madman any institute is going to apply now for university status. From people i have being engaging today over this topic with so far the general concensus is that CIT is behind waterford with regard to its quality overall. As i have never been there i cannot declare this as fact but i would come to the conclusion that if this was to be correct then i would be firmly be against CIT even considering themselves as good enough let alone appling for an improved status. Next you'll have an application from carlow!Mark my words

Waterford not being up to sufficient standard "at the moment" is not a suitable arguement against it. All that is required is the governments blessing and the sufficient funding to improve the deficit if there is any.If this arguent was sufficient then you would not build anything.It's like saying we won't build an IT in Blanchardstown because there is only a green field there.Or " We won't build an airport because their is no grass airstrip there."The case is based on the Equity and proper regional development. Carlow IT may apply but they do not have the central location within the region and the transport links or the critical mass.The arguement for a univesity within the region is won that is why people like Constantin Gurdgiev have tried to remove this element from the debate as well as his own vested interests in Trinity college.

Also the fact that Waterford IT has been poorly funded for decades and still manages to perform at just below the University level is a testament to the staff and indicates that the problem is not expertise and skills but simply funding.

stick-dan · 13-03-2008 1:27pm

mad man wrote: »

Waterford not being up to sufficient standard "at the moment" is not a suitable arguement against it. All that is required is the governments blessing and the sufficient funding to improve the deficit if there is any.If this arguent was sufficient then you would not build anything.It's like saying we won't build an IT in Blanchardstown because there is only a green field there.Or " We won't build an airport because their is no grass airstrip there."The case is based on the Equity and proper regional development. Carlow IT may apply but they do not have the central location within the region and the transport links or the critical mass.The arguement for a univesity within the region is won that is why people like Constantin Gurdgiev have tried to remove this element from the debate as well as his own vested interests in Trinity college.

Also the fact that Waterford IT has been poorly funded for decades and still manages to perform at just below the University level is a testament to the staff and indicates that the problem is not expertise and skills but simply funding.

I have had this conversation before and covered all these topics earlier in the thread i was merely refreshing peoples memories..:)

mad man · 13-03-2008 1:40pm

stick-dan wrote: »

I have had this conversation before and covered all these topics earlier in the thread i was merely refreshing peoples memories..:)

Yeah so you did.Poor little troll:rolleyes:

Sully · 13-03-2008 4:19pm

mad man wrote: »

Yeah so you did.Poor little troll:rolleyes:

Sorry, what? Knowing stick-dan personally and observing his posts on Boards I think its safe to say he is far from being a troll. Feel free to make your observations via the Report Button or by sending myself or Dub13 a PM.

merlante · 13-03-2008 4:56pm

stick-dan wrote: »

I have had this conversation before and covered all these topics earlier in the thread i was merely refreshing peoples memories..:)

When this thread started the Port report had not been published, and it was a free for all of opinion on whether or not the WIT was up to the standard or not. Now that an expert report covering that very subject has been released we don't have to rely on opinion and hearsay anymore.

According to Dr. Port the WIT is up to the standard academically. He doesn't make a single criticism of the institution in the whole report and says that the WIT, as it is right now, would not be out of place as a university in Canada or in the UK.

From that point of view, the merit argument has been won. I always thought from the start that this was not about the WIT as it is now anyway, but the university that the south east needs for the future. There is a need there for a university level institution, and such an institution should be provided, just as it has been in the other regions. It's that cut and dry.

merlante · 14-03-2008 12:49pm

Friends of the University for the South East (FUSE) (http://www.se4u.org/) have put together a petition.

I know there have been other petitions as well, but please sign this one too. (You can't really combine them for legal reasons.) Every little bit helps.

http://www.se4u.org/signpetition.php

Feel free to leave comments!

stick-dan · 14-03-2008 6:48pm

mad man wrote: »

Yeah so you did.Poor little troll:rolleyes:

not even entertaining that!Grow up.

Sully · 14-03-2008 8:32pm

merlante wrote: »

When this thread started the Port report had not been published, and it was a free for all of opinion on whether or not the WIT was up to the standard or not. Now that an expert report covering that very subject has been released we don't have to rely on opinion and hearsay anymore.

According to Dr. Port the WIT is up to the standard academically. He doesn't make a single criticism of the institution in the whole report and says that the WIT, as it is right now, would not be out of place as a university in Canada or in the UK.

From that point of view, the merit argument has been won. I always thought from the start that this was not about the WIT as it is now anyway, but the university that the south east needs for the future. There is a need there for a university level institution, and such an institution should be provided, just as it has been in the other regions. It's that cut and dry.

Just because you dont agree with stick-dan, does not mean he is wrong. He has formed an opnion, and while the offical judgement for University might not include the concerns he and others have about WIT becoming a University so early - does not mean he is entitled to an opinion.

That report was neither pro or against University Status in Waterford. I think everyone agrees that its got potential and it would make a good University. However people inside in WIT who are students or who work with students problems judge the application differently then the report, government or you do.

Calling someone a troll because they judge things differently, is lame. Next time, it will be a ban.

Sully · 14-03-2008 8:33pm

merlante wrote: »

Friends of the University for the South East (FUSE) (http://www.se4u.org/) have put together a petition.

I know there have been other petitions as well, but please sign this one too. (You can't really combine them for legal reasons.) Every little bit helps.

http://www.se4u.org/signpetition.php

Feel free to leave comments!

Iv merged this with the University topic. Its all the same discussion.

I see a lot of familar names on that list. They all work in or with WIT.

Topic Merged.

merlante · 14-03-2008 8:52pm

Sully wrote: »

Just because you dont agree with stick-dan, does not mean he is wrong. He has formed an opnion, and while the offical judgement for University might not include the concerns he and others have about WIT becoming a University so early - does not mean he is entitled to an opinion.

That report was neither pro or against University Status in Waterford. I think everyone agrees that its got potential and it would make a good University. However people inside in WIT who are students or who work with students problems judge the application differently then the report, government or you do.

Calling someone a troll because they judge things differently, is lame. Next time, it will be a ban.

First off, cop on to yourself and read my posts -- I didn't call anyone a troll.

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

Expert opinion, however, is in relatively short supply. The expert opinion is that the WIT would not be out of place as a university in the UK or in Canada. Read the Port report -- it's there.

Port has reservations on the upgrading of the WIT because of national policy concerns *not* because the institute was in any way not up to the standard. Nowhere in the document is he critical of the WIT. Nowhere. The merit argument, as far as Dr. Port is concerned, is won. Read the report.

Also, don't assume you are only person 'inside' the WIT on this board.

Sully · 14-03-2008 8:58pm

merlante wrote: »

First off, cop on to yourself and read my posts -- I didn't call anyone a troll.

I already addressed that issue with the poster. Iv never accused you, so relax.

Expert opinion, however, is in relatively short supply. The expert opinion is that the WIT would not be out of place as a university in the UK or in Canada. Read the Port report -- it's there.

Port has reservations on the upgrading of the WIT because of national policy concerns *not* because the institute was in any way not up to the standard. Nowhere in the document is he critical of the WIT. Nowhere. The merit argument, as far as Dr. Port is concerned, is won. Read the report.

Thats a right load of waffle right there. Your missing my point. I dont disagree with expert opinion. I meerly stated how others are expressing their opinion and why they disagree with why it should be University.

Also, don't assume you are only person 'inside' the WIT on this board.

In the name of.. wtf are you on about?

merlante · 14-03-2008 9:08pm

Sully wrote: »

Thats a right load of waffle right there. Your missing my point. I dont disagree with expert opinion. I meerly stated how others are expressing their opinion and why they disagree with why it should be University.

You followed up to one of my posts saying basically that people should be allowed to express their opinion, and with "Calling someone a troll because they judge things differently, is lame. Next time, it will be a ban."

Where did I say someone couldn't have an opinion? Why was the troll comment put in there if it wasn't directed at me?

Sully wrote: »

In the name of.. wtf are you on about?

Here's what you said:
"However people inside in WIT who are students or who work with students problems judge the application differently then the report, government or you do."

You don't know what my perspective or background is and to be honest, it's not important.

What's important is whether an institution matches up to *objective* criteria or not. According to one expert, Dr. Port, it does.

stick-dan · 14-03-2008 9:18pm

Ah for christ sake what is the point in continously bickering about this.

Right first of all let's disregard the stupid comment made at me by that suspect poster, i don't entertain those comments and neither should ye although sully thank you for the support. So case closed on that one.

Next merlante you , nobody disregarded your report. In hind-sight looking back through the thread although we have different points of view regarding the upgrade but despite this i as those most here acknowledge that your posts are one of the few that are substantiated with facts no matter if we disagree from our point of view or not.

Also sully is not the only one in the institute of WIT atm because there are at least half a dozen people who posted are students there. They see it from the inside and their point of views will be different from yours. You argue for the upgrade to benefit for the region, we argue against for the sake that we think the education is not as good and as you well know any experts can conduct all the tests they want but did they ask the students because i think that if they had asked the students there opinion with regard to some of the comments made in the port report they would be of a different view. Stats count for nothing unless they are provided first hand from the domain. So can we please stop this childish bickering and pointing out obvious facts and act like the intellectually informed we are claiming to be.

If i was to guess your position i would say you're more than likely a TSSG employee and would benefit from an influx of funding of the research being conducted in the TSSG. if that was a right assumption by myself, then wouldn't you're opinion be biased????

I'll continue tomorrow. I'm off for the night.

WIT University

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