DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

Jimbo

topcatcbr wrote: »

Its new of it has never been sold or rented before.

But how would that work for owner-occupied houses?

topcatcbr

The same to a point i would think. If it was completed before jan 2007 i would say its second hand as the previous Building regulations would apply. If after jan 2007 then new. If you have plans to work from use them.

No6

I'd say that it is a new house until it is first occupied, it may be exempt from a BER if the planning application was pre 2007 and it was substantially complete by 30th June 2008 and sold before the 1st Jan 2009. (after that it will the exemption will no longer apply so if its not sold it needs a BER)

Any house that has been occupied is not a new house:)

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

Any house that has been occupied is not a new house:)

Not necessarily true.
You cannot do a BER on a home which is no completed. You can only do a provisional cert for homes off plans which will require a final cert after completion or occupation. In the case of one off it will be normal to do a BER for a new home which is occupied already. This will not of gone for sale or let.

The end result will remain the same for either new or existing. The main difference is the amount of information is greater for new as you have drawings and spec and can usually talk to the site supervisor and or builder.

No6

Have you seen the new Non Domestic qualification Criteria

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/Non_Domestic_Buildings/BER_Assessors_for_Non-Domestic_Buildings/

Good news for some of us level 7 degree people we can now get in at level 3 which will do small basic existing non domestic units, subject to training (i'll post the cost when I get it) and exam which costs 750 to sit :eek:

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

Have you seen the new Non Domestic qualification Criteria

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/Non_Domestic_Buildings/BER_Assessors_for_Non-Domestic_Buildings/

Good news for some of us level 7 degree people we can now get in at level 3 which will do small basic existing non domestic units, subject to training (i'll post the cost when I get it) and exam which costs 750 to sit :eek:

my dip arch tech is level 7.. i assume that will be ok....


i will contact SEI on this and post here when i know more....

No6

sydthebeat wrote: »

my dip arch tech is level 7.. i assume that will be ok....


i will contact SEI on this and post here when i know more....

I'm not sure on that Syd it does say degree but since a level 7 degree and a diploma is the same thing in the eyes of the NSQAI then you're probably right!! You do need to be in a professional body also, RIAI Tech or MCIAT & ACIAT are currently accecptable!!!

sinnerboy

No6 wrote: »

Have you seen the new Non Domestic qualification Criteria

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/Non_Domestic_Buildings/BER_Assessors_for_Non-Domestic_Buildings/

Good news for some of us level 7 degree people we can now get in at level 3 which will do small basic existing non domestic units, subject to training (i'll post the cost when I get it) and exam which costs 750 to sit :eek:

Makes sense that non domestics should be sub divided according to complexity and therefore that different assessor grades are required .

BUT - it is odd that level 7 is ok for simpler EXISTING non dom's but not new .....

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

I'm not sure on that Syd it does say degree but since a level 7 degree and a diploma is the same thing in the eyes of the NSQAI then you're probably right!! You do need to be in a professional body also, RIAI Tech or MCIAT & ACIAT are currently accecptable!!!

If you arecurrently ACIAT and are offering professional services do you not have to register as a profile member of CIAT. thus changing membership grade. and then you cannot register as level 3. Catch 22

No6

Possibly an ACIAT in employment and an assessor in employment, but you'r right about the self-employed bit!! I would have thought it was the TCIAT and MCIAT grades that should be listed after all you have to do POP records for both of these, ACIAT is as long as you are employed and have been to college!! Probably a misunderstanding on SEI's part, but at least the door is opening to us level 7 qualification holders, I think that that is very important. I'm sure it will be possible to get to level four with further training eventually. I think level 5 is going to be very specialised.

rjp123

Supposing a BER cert is issued for a dwelling and at the time of assessment the apartment had 0% Energy Efficient Bulbs. That Cert is then valid for 10 years (full BER on existing). In the mean time if the owner changes to CFL bulbs (which appears to be a mandatory enforcement in a few years) - what happens the CERT - surely it is now technically invalid and void now matter how small the effect.
I know there is some guidance on this kind of thing provided there are no major material changes to the building over the 10 year period - Im just wondering is there more specific guidance on this? Cheers

sinnerboy

rjp123 wrote: »

Supposing a BER cert is issued for a dwelling and at the time of assessment the apartment had 0% Energy Efficient Bulbs. That Cert is then valid for 10 years (full BER on existing). In the mean time if the owner changes to CFL bulbs (which appears to be a mandatory enforcement in a few years) - what happens the CERT - surely it is now technically invalid and void now matter how small the effect.
I know there is some guidance on this kind of thing provided there are no major material changes to the building over the 10 year period - Im just wondering is there more specific guidance on this? Cheers

One can obtain a new assessment ( BER Cert ) at any time

rjp123

sinnerboy wrote: »

One can obtain a new assessment ( BER Cert ) at any time

so no cert issued now is likely to last the full 10 years if they go ahead and phase out standard lightbulbs! I guess the obligation is on the houseowner to make sure that they highlight any changes done since the last assessment - I predict a lot of certs going around that aren't right in a few years.

sydthebeat

rjp123 wrote: »

so no cert issued now is likely to last the full 10 years if they go ahead and phase out standard lightbulbs! I guess the obligation is on the houseowner to make sure that they highlight any changes done since the last assessment - I predict a lot of certs going around that aren't right in a few years.

if the alteration of light bulbs is going to have a significant affect on a rating it may be worth getting a second one done, but in reality it wont really unless your starting from a E or D rating.....

If your at a B2 rating it MAY get you to a B1... so no real significant difference...

The law states:

A BER certificate and related advisory report shall be rendered invalid if there is any material change in the building to which it relates which could affect its energy performance, including-
(a) any significant deterioration in the fabric of the building; or
(b) any extension of the building; or
(c) any change in the heating system for the building or in the type of fuel used by that system.

rjp123

sydthebeat wrote: »

if the alteration of light bulbs is going to have a significant affect on a rating it may be worth getting a second one done, but in reality it wont really unless your starting from a E or D rating.....

If your at a B2 rating it MAY get you to a B1... so no real significant difference...
The law states:

A BER certificate and related advisory report shall be rendered invalid if there is any material change in the building to which it relates which could affect its energy performance, including-
(a) any significant deterioration in the fabric of the building; or
(b) any extension of the building; or
(c) any change in the heating system for the building or in the type of fuel used by that system.

But if you allow that level of ambiguity into it (i.e the householder deciding if he'll get another cert for doing a few improvements here and there) then it is flawed.(SEIs problem really)
I also would have considered B2 to B1 a good improvement?
If i read the first line of the law bit it states that "any material change ..." so I think that answers it for me.
As an assessor all you can do is tell them if they change anything then they need a new assessment - whether they do or not is another story.Thanks all

sinnerboy

rjp123 wrote: »

But if you allow that level of ambiguity into it (i.e the householder deciding if he'll get another cert for doing a few improvements here and there) then it is flawed.(SEIs problem really)
I also would have considered B2 to B1 a good improvement?
If i read the first line of the law bit it states that "any material change ..." so I think that answers it for me.
As an assessor all you can do is tell them if they change anything then they need a new assessment - whether they do or not is another story.Thanks all

No ambiguity exists . Syd's post is clear . Onus is on the owner to comply

ardara1

rjp123 wrote: »

Supposing a BER cert is issued for a dwelling and at the time of assessment the apartment had 0% Energy Efficient Bulbs. That Cert is then valid for 10 years (full BER on existing). In the mean time if the owner changes to CFL bulbs (which appears to be a mandatory enforcement in a few years) - what happens the CERT - surely it is now technically invalid and void now matter how small the effect.
I know there is some guidance on this kind of thing provided there are no major material changes to the building over the 10 year period - Im just wondering is there more specific guidance on this? Cheers

The Irish DEAP is a copy of the UK SAP - with a couple of subtle changes - for instance when it comes to energy efficienct lighting it is the FITTINGS that are installed that accept EE bulbs ONLY - not the bulbs themselves - makes more sense.

topcatcbr

Not to contridict you but i was under the same impression until i did the HESS course run by sei and they were of the opinion that it was the bulbs. and infact a fitting with multiple bulbs has to have all EE bulbs fitted to be clasified as EE.

Another misconception i had was that a fitting was any series of fittings connected to a single switch eg spots but this is only the case with if they are on the one bar or appliance. Single spots connected in series are not considered the same.

sydthebeat

topcat is correct...

all clarification from SEI have said that they accept low energy bulb installation as a means to meet the measures to use as 'low energy lighting'.

any assessment with this needs to have a signed undertaking from the occupiers...... not a perfect situation by any means, but acceptable to the administrators of the BER process!!!!

DOCARCH

Another general trashing of BER on Derek Mooney show on RTE! Like a carbon copy of Joe Duffy a couple of months ago.

topcatcbr

At least Paula Rice was on to give some intelligent info. The hard questions were asked but unlike the JD show they were answered. JD never gave any opportunity to respond and as usual only allowed one side of the argument to be heard. I think the debate today was far more positive.

No6

Damn Missed it again!!!

sydthebeat

what were the issues dealt with??

was it just an advert by SEI of the BER system??

DOCARCH

topcatcbr wrote: »

I think the debate today was far more positive.

Ehhhhh.....Derek got a bit/very heated about the whole cost thing and the whole thin ended with Derek reading out comments like 'jobs for the boys', 'sacm', 'rip-off', 'it costs £50 in the UK'.

Not very positive imho!

Is there an agenda in RTE???

topcatcbr

I just cought the end but from what i heard it wasnt too bad. I heard the price comments from derek but i thought Paula answered questions well. There was an element of negitivity put across but nothing as one sided as the JD show. I didnt get the whole interview so i cannot give a difinitive opinion.

Mossyfields

Look on the positive side , its air time for the subject. It may be negative but it better than nothing.

PS> See there is a free workshop on air tightness for assessors in Galway..
reference www.berassoc.ie

Villain

Whats competition like lads? What kind of prices are been charged for existing dwellings?

sydthebeat

anyone know what the turn around period is in SEI at the moment from sending the assessment to recieving the cert??

Villain

To answer my own question prices seem to vary a lot from a google, from around €225 to €500!!!

I would warn anyone reading this who needs to get a BER cert done to shop around, seems some people may trying to make a little too much hay!

sinnerboy

Or some people are not offering a proper service . I won't be doing any certs for €225 ....