DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

ardara1 · 01-12-2008 10:17pm

legs akimbo. wrote: »

Hi all,
Would welcome a little advice if you all would be so kind.
I have an old cottage to assess and was wondering how I would treat a conservatory added to the rear of the property it has a full polycarbonate roof so over the 75% criterea and more than 50% glazing though it is heated from the central heating with a TRV. I was concerned it would have a negative impact on the rating, so is this construed as thermally seperated or not.
Also the wall elements are solid mass concrete with a U value of 2.2 but have been drylined in 50mm high density (Kingspan) therma board (38mm insulation and 12.5mmplasterboard) How would I calculate theese two elements together to attain the overall u value ?

With thanks in advance

legs.

A conservatory needs to be thermally separated (by outside quality door) and have separate heating controls enabled to turn off that area. If not - include all the glazing/volume etc as part of the house.

As for U-value - need to run as a single element - build up in any u-value calculator - at a quess approx 0.39 ?

legs akimbo. · 02-12-2008 9:28pm

I calculated in the conservatory and all relevant elements and surprisingly it did not make much difference, Solar gains would have been an equalling factor. However I have preliminarily, in the roof tab, opted for flat roof type, circa 1950 as was unsure on the polycarbonate roofs u value.
The default value in DEAP for cast concrete walls is 2.2 but evaluated through a common buildings material agenda it works out higher which is why I wanted to use the default 2.2 and and calculate this with 0.45 on the thermal liner....still not sure how though.

topcatcbr · 02-12-2008 11:23pm

Polycarbonate typical U values 10mm twin wall = 3.2 16mm triple wall = 2.3 25mm five wall = 1.6 40mm = 1.6

sydthebeat · 03-12-2008 4:19pm

are suppliers of renewable products precluded from offering BER certification to dwellings they supply to in accordance to the new 'code of practise' from SEI???

p38dse · 04-12-2008 12:55pm

From the code of conduct..................

(d) in any other circumstances in which they have a material financial interest in the outcome of any assessment other than the fee charged for providing the rating.

It would appear that a Ber assessor cannot have any connection with the property, be it, design,certifying, renting, selling, advising on improvements.......!

Unless of course you're a civil servant!

Where a public body offers for sale or letting a building which is required to comply with the Regulations, a BER Assessor who is an employee of this public body or an employee of another public body shall be entitled to conduct a BER assessment pursuant to the Regulations on the building in question without a breach of this Section 6 or the Regulations taking place

muffler · 04-12-2008 1:03pm

p38dse wrote: »

Where a public body offers for sale or letting a building which is required to comply with the Regulations, a BER Assessor who is an employee of this public body or an employee of another public body shall be entitled to conduct a BER assessment pursuant to the Regulations on the building in question without a breach of this Section 6 or the Regulations taking place

So Local Authority technicians can in fact carry out the assessments for their employer or another Local Authority.

In Donegal they are about to or have formed a panel of private assessors to carry out the assessments of their existing housing stock.

Johnny Lamp · 04-12-2008 1:23pm

Seems strange to me that with the legislation in place for existing rental/sales properies to require a BER from Jan 1 that not many have actually been done. Will there be a rush in Jan or will people wait til last minute when lawyer needs it to complete. If my energy rating is not done for my apartment will teh tenant notice?

topcatcbr · 04-12-2008 1:28pm

muffler wrote: »

In Donegal they are about to or have formed a panel of private assessors to carry out the assessments of their existing housing stock.

Did They put this out to tender

How was it advertised?

I wouldnt be interested in going as far as Donegal but i would be interested in what the tendering process was so i can watch out for it when it happens closer to home.

Who would i contact within a CoCo to tender for this kind of work. Which Dept.

Would it be any benifit to call these people making them aware of my intention to tender for any such contracts.

sydthebeat · 04-12-2008 1:31pm

p38dse wrote: »

From the code of conduct..................

(d) in any other circumstances in which they have a material financial interest in the outcome of any assessment other than the fee charged for providing the rating.

It would appear that a Ber assessor cannot have any connection with the property, be it, design,certifying, renting, selling, advising on improvements.......!

Unless of course you're a civil servant!

Where a public body offers for sale or letting a building which is required to comply with the Regulations, a BER Assessor who is an employee of this public body or an employee of another public body shall be entitled to conduct a BER assessment pursuant to the Regulations on the building in question without a breach of this Section 6 or the Regulations taking place

theres no material financial gain to be made by any designer / certifier depenant on the outcome of an assessment... therefor ethey are not precluded under the code of conduct....

however, if i am selling heat pump and i do an assessment and tell my client, if you put in a hea pump you will get x better rating, by the way we sell heat pumps.... then i would financially gain from a better rating....

topcatcbr · 04-12-2008 1:39pm

Johnny Lamp wrote: »

Seems strange to me that with the legislation in place for existing rental/sales properies to require a BER from Jan 1 that not many have actually been done. Will there be a rush in Jan or will people wait til last minute when lawyer needs it to complete. If my energy rating is not done for my apartment will teh tenant notice?

When you renew your agreement ie offer it for rent or lease after 1st of jan 09 you need it then. If your current tennnant stays for the next 20 years or so you will not need one. However if you enter into an agreement after 1st Jan 09 without one you would be liable for a fine of €5000 not to mention if you fell out with your tennant and had to resort to legal action you wouldnt have done your part. There could be a big deal made of it then.

p38dse · 04-12-2008 1:50pm

Is there different training course for "new Build" and "existing Houses"?

I would seem much more difficult to do an existing house, bearing in mind the assessor would have to have an indepth knowledge of building construction to see the levels of insulation, structure etc and spend a long time measuring up and so on without detailed plans.

Will the price for an existing home be much more than a new build?
I seem to be getting massive differances in quotes from different assessors can anyone recommend a good assessor who is trained in existing house assessments.

Thanks.

muffler · 04-12-2008 2:08pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

Did They put this out to tender

How was it advertised?

I wouldnt be interested in going as far as Donegal but i would be interested in what the tendering process was so i can watch out for it when it happens closer to home.

Who would i contact within a CoCo to tender for this kind of work. Which Dept.

Would it be any benifit to call these people making them aware of my intention to tender for any such contracts.

It was advertised a few months ago in the local papers here in Donegal and possibly the national papers also. I think the format was that they invited assessors to submit a form with details of qualifications etc and there may have been follow up interviews to form a panel for each electoral area. I think (not sure) that the interviews may have taken place.

They also had interviews for site assessors and i could be getting the timescales mixed up a little. Anyhow all the contact details are here so you should make contact and see what the story is.

p38dse · 04-12-2008 2:27pm

While looking for an answer to my question i found this

:eek:

No6 wrote: »

Probably both Mick, I missed the first few minutes of her presentation but that was the gist of it, since the exam will not be ready untill april may next year and existing building come into effect in Jan SEI needs assessors, you will still have to pass the exam and agree to an updated code of conduct with some new bits / requirements in it, so what I took from it was you don't need to do the existing building course if you don't want to, the courses are changing over to just one course new & existing together with DEAP 3, If you a registered already you can see how you get on with DEAP 3 for a while if you've still not sure about it do the existing buildings course if you are try the exam. Depending on your backrgound you may or may not need the top up course.

What happens if you take the exam and fail what happens to all the certs you've completed are they void

I know a guy who is good at wiring, maybe he should try wiring a few houses and if he thinks he might pass he could take an exam or not as he prefered.............:eek:

This whole BER thing is looking like a real hash altogether.

sinnerboy · 04-12-2008 2:45pm

p38dse wrote: »

While looking for an answer to my question i found this:eek:

What happens if you take the exam and fail what happens to all the certs you've completed are they void

I know a guy who is good at wiring, maybe he should try wiring a few houses and if he thinks he might pass he could take an exam or not as he prefered.............:eek:

This whole BER thing is looking like a real hash altogether.

Suggest you make your valid views known to SEI . No one here can do any thing about this

p38dse · 04-12-2008 4:27pm

Thanks,
but isn't it the public who need to be aware. If a individual spends a couple of hundred euro getting a assesment on their house, and lodging it with their solicitor in order to legally sell their house, only to find out that the solicitor, having carried out a search, finds that the assessor who caried out the BER isn't actually qualified to do it, will the sale be able to complete? Who will re-imburse the poor house owner? Do assessors carry profesional indenemity insurance?
It all seems a bit vague to me, and I am in the process of looking for a qualified existing home assessor to carry out a BER for me, and having done my research, cannot as yet find an individual who will carry one out and guarantee me that they are covered by adaquate insurance should the cert not be recognised by my legal advisors.

muffler · 04-12-2008 4:39pm

p38dse wrote: »

I am in the process of looking for a qualified existing home assessor to carry out a BER for me, and having done my research, cannot as yet find an individual who will carry one out and guarantee me that they are covered by adaquate insurance should the cert not be recognised by my legal advisors.

Is this the reason why you are posting on this forum?

p38dse · 04-12-2008 4:47pm

It is not the reason, but as a result of looking I have come across this issue,and hoped that somebody in this forom could clarify things for me, there seems to be a lot of poeple who know what they are talking about here.:o
Why have you asked me this question?

muffler · 04-12-2008 5:02pm

p38dse wrote: »

Why have you asked me this question?

Because I want to establish your motives for posting here. You have touched on a little matter called "legal issues" which needs to be addressed by your solicitor and not anyone here.

p38dse · 04-12-2008 5:15pm

I withdraw any mention of "legal matters" and ask the questions.

1.Is there anyone qualified to carry out a BER assesment of a second hand residence?

2.And if so, can anybody recommend somebody.

I hope this doesn't infringe any forum rules.

Thanks.:o

sinnerboy · 04-12-2008 5:41pm

p38dse wrote: »

I withdraw any mention of "legal matters" and ask the questions.

1.Is there anyone qualified to carry out a BER assesment of a second hand residence?

2.And if so, can anybody recommend somebody.

I hope this doesn't infringe any forum rules.

Thanks.:o

1. Yes - look to SEI register

http://193.178.2.42/SearchAssessors.aspx

2. Not here - pm only

Query 2 infringes rules of forum

.

legs akimbo. · 04-12-2008 7:46pm

I received an e mail from Energen training issued to them by SEI stateing that:

Any persons having undertaken the New dwellings course and is in receipt of their Fetac diploma and has subsequently taken the existing house course will be exempt from taking the national exam in April 09. They will now be in a position to register with SEI and are then fully qualified to undertake both new and existing assessments.
However that person will have to show they have undertaken an existing dwellings course, agree to certain terms and conditions and show an understanding of DEAP 3,if you have not taken the existing dwellings course, and as it is not compulsory, you would need to then wait untill taking the April exam before being able to assess existing dwellings.
Furthermore those who have recently taken the new build course and passed the relevant exams and have also undertaken the Existings course will NOT be able to register for existing dwellings with SEI as they will not be in receipt of their Fetac diploma. It seems theese diplomas are issued twice yearly so many people will be procluded from undertaking existing dwelling assessments from 1st January if they do not meet with the above criterea.

In a nut shell only those who meet the criterea stated will be allowed to register with SEI and therefor be able to undertake existing BER's and issue certification. No one can undertake an existing BER in loo of them passing the exam in April as they can not register and can not avail of the relevant certification for their services.

Regards

Legs

p38dse · 04-12-2008 9:00pm

Thanks,
Found a local estate agent on the sei list who can do it, and he'll give me a money back guarantee if it's not accepted, as he is doing a top up course and exam early 2009.
Can't ask faired than that!:)

legs akimbo. · 04-12-2008 10:55pm

p38dse wrote: »

Thanks,
Found a local estate agent on the sei list who can do it, and he'll give me a money back guarantee if it's not accepted, as he is doing a top up course and exam early 2009.
Can't ask faired than that!:)

He may be doing an existing dwellings course, but there is not an exam for this, it is not compulsary, though i.m.o. an integral part of the overall assessment process. If he is refering to taking the National Exam then no one at all is able to take this exam as that will not be in place untill April at best. Before parting with a red cent I would ensure you find out when he is able to issue a cert. Its all well and good paying for an assessment but of little value if the assessor is in no position to issue a cert that will be needed as and from January 1st. No one will be able to complete the sale of a house with the remit that I will be getting my C1 rating cert sometime in mid April.

topcatcbr · 04-12-2008 11:12pm

Requirements for Exiting Dwellings

Registration requirements - BER Assessors Existing Dwellings
Until the national exam is available (expected 2nd Quarter 2009), certified BER Assessors can continue to apply for registration for new dwellings and can then extend their registration via NAS to cover All Dwellings, subject to specified terms and conditions which include the following;

- Be fully familiar with the DEAP Software (Version 3.0.0)
- Be fully familiar with and adhere to the DEAP Manual (Version 3.0.0)
- Be fully familiar with and adhere to the DEAP Survey Guide
- Have read and accepted the BER Assessors Code of Practice (All Dwellings)
- Have accepted the requirement to pass the BER Registration Exam before 1st January 2010* (*Note: Exam is expected to be available 2nd Quarter 2009.)

To download the application forms please click here

Once the national exam is available, certified assessors will be required to pass the national exam before applying for registration as a BER Assessor.

National BER Examination
A national BER examination is being introduced in the 2nd Quarter 2009, for persons who wish to register as BER assessors for All Dwellings and to facilitate ongoing competency testing of BER Assessors. It is expected that this examination will be available at number of centres nation wide on an on-going basis. There will be no limit on the number of times you can repeat the national examination.

This examination will test knowledge of BER for new and existing dwellings, applicants may wish to undergo additional or refresher training in preparation for this examination and all persons are advised to carefully scrutinise all top-up/refresher BER training programmes on offer before committing to any programme. Items you could enquire about include: trainer qualifications and experience, supports offered from training provider if you do not pass the SEI examination, number of site visits included on the programme, the learning outcomes the programme will cover, the learning outcomes the programme will not cover, the training material provided, the number of additional hours study the provider recommends you do before sitting the national BER examination, the length of course.

A list of qualified Assessors New & Existing can be found here http://193.178.2.42/SearchAssessors.aspx

topcatcbr · 04-12-2008 11:15pm

p38dse wrote: »

Thanks,
Found a local estate agent on the sei list who can do it, and he'll give me a money back guarantee if it's not accepted, as he is doing a top up course and exam early 2009.
Can't ask faired than that!:)

You can get it done before early 2009 whenever this is.
the link below will give an assessor in your area who can do it now.
http://193.178.2.42/SearchAssessors.aspx

No6 · 05-12-2008 1:22am

p38dse wrote: »

While looking for an answer to my question i found this:eek:

What happens if you take the exam and fail what happens to all the certs you've completed are they void

I know a guy who is good at wiring, maybe he should try wiring a few houses and if he thinks he might pass he could take an exam or not as he prefered.............:eek:

This whole BER thing is looking like a real hash altogether.

Hi p38dse sorry to have frightened you, I was ofline for a day or two but the lads have hopefully reassured you a little. I would however also reccomend that you check your assessors background, theres some very good ones with years of experience as professionals in the construction industry and then there will be some bad ones out there. If they have no construction related qualification I'd reccomend that you keep looking!!:D

The system is outside of the controll of the assessors but if you look at all the posts you will notice a number of assessors posting here on the quality issues you are concerned about.

p38dse · 05-12-2008 10:13am

If they have no construction related qualification I'd reccomend that you keep looking!!:D

The guy I talked to is on the SEI list but he is an estate agent not a surveyor, or architect, but as he says its not rocket science to take a few mesurements and stick them into a programme which apparantly works everything out for you.(It turns out he's is not even qualified to be an estate agent, ie not iavi or ipav)

Having had such a good response from you guys, and reading loads of posts on this forum I think I will hold off until the whole system is tried and tested,its not like houses are selling quickly or anything, so I will wait and get a proper BER.:)

sinnerboy · 05-12-2008 11:37am

I see two types of customer for BER

1.
Has no real interest in the whole point of BER i.e. to encourage conservation of energy .

Simply in Joe Duffy style sees it as "a tax" . This customer will want " the piece of paper " cheap and will get it cheap by the "its not rocket science - the computer works it all out for you " sort of assessor . ( The Little Britain "computer says no" character comes to mind )

2.
Has genuine interest in their building and it's energy performance . Will seek out and PAY FOR an assessor who is also a construction professional . The BER assessment will be only the start of a process leading to actual improvements in the building as opposed to " the piece of paper "

Jimbo · 05-12-2008 6:28pm

I don't know if this came up before but does anyone know where to draw the line between an existing house and a new house?

We were asked to do a BER assesment on a house that has just been finished but has not been occupied yet. Is it still classified as a new house since it hasn't been occupied yet or strictly speaking is it an existing house? How do you define 'new house'?

topcatcbr · 05-12-2008 6:33pm

jimbo78 wrote: »

I don't know if this came up before but does anyone know where to draw the line between an existing house and a new house?

We were asked to do a BER assesment on a house that has just been finished but has not been occupied yet. Is it still classified as a new house since it hasn't been occupied yet or strictly speaking is it an existing house? How do you define 'new house'?

Its new of it has never been sold or rented before.

DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

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