DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

brianmacl

You have just provided the section that is flawed, i have underlined and made bold the wording that I beleive is wrong.

Houses are not offered for sale. A washing machine or fridge is offered for sale in a shop, if there is a price tag on it and you pay the shop keeper that amount you get the fridge or washing machine. However houses are sold with an "asking price" or "AMV" and people are invited to make an offer on the property, if you offer the price being asked for you are not entittled to get the house, this method of sale is described as an invitation to treat. The house is not offered for sale while being marketed.

This may make prossecutions under SI666 virtually impossible

To me it looks like who ever drew up this legislation coppied and pasted from the legislation that was introduced so that household appliences that were offere for sale should include an energy rating slicker and propbably forgot first year contract law.

sinnerboy wrote: »

@ brianmcl -

From Part 3 SI 666 2006

(2) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—
(a) a building of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4) construction of which commences on or after such date specified for that class in the said subparagraphs, hereinafter referred to as a ‘new building’, or
(b) on or after 1 January 2009, a building that is in existence on or before 1 January 2009,
and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall produce a printed copy of the BER certificate and advisory report in relation to the building to any person expressing an interest in purchasing or taking a letting of the building and, on demand, to the building control authority in whose functional area the building is situated.


I am not a legal expert - ( perhaps you are ) . My interpretation is that agent is not defined , perhaps delibrately , so to include solicitors and estate agents .

note that local authorities , not sei have power to demand

Also from part 3 - enforcement

Production of BER certificate
9. (1) A building control authority or an authorised officer thereof may demand, from the owner of a building, or the agent of such owner, within the functional area of the authority, the production of a printed copy of the BER certificate required in respect of the building by these Regulations, and if the building owner or the agent of such owner as the case may be refuses or fails to produce without reasonable excuse the printed copy of the BER certificate then and there, he or she, unless within 28 days after the day on which production was demanded he or she produces a printed copy of the BER certificate to the authority, commits an offence.


It seems clear to me - on what basis are you saying the SI is flawed ? - to clarify - I am not "challenging" you , you may see something I don't

brianmacl

A couple of things I have went for proffesional indemnity as well as public liability total cost is anywhere from €850 ish to €1,500 for the lot.
Just remember if you are going to do this a side line you will also be paying SEI €1,215 to register and a further €30+ ish per assessment so with the price per BER Assessment dropping you may have to do a fair number of jobs before you break even.

I think it is worth doing the course and understanding this stuff.

People suggest that it can take from 1 hour to half a day to do an assessment on an average house. I am sure that as people do more they will get into a better rythem and will be able to tell you with more precisson how long it can take.

REFLINE1 wrote: »

Hi,This is my first post on this board bear that in mind if this ends up in the wrong thread!

Im a degree qualified Engineer working with a leading Irish Main Contractor.I have almost 5years experience on sites ranging from Residential (Apts etc) to Commercial projects.

Im in the process of signing up to do the BER asessor training course..probably with DIT.Ive convinced my employer to cover the costs of this training as part of my CPD.

Im thinking of getting into this as a sideline income but amen't sure wether its viable or worth the hassle! I have a solid understanding of insulation techniques heating systems etc as it stands.

Has anyone thoughts on this? Good idea/Bad?!

Im guessing id need PI to do this also?
How much work is involved in a cert for a typical semi detached 3 bed for instance? (Hrs-Approx)

You guys seem to be well up on this topic so id appreciate the advice,
cheers

topcatcbr

The prices are dropping quickly. This may in part be due to those who have already recovered the initial investment and can thus reduce prices. It is going to be harder for someone setting up from now on as it will take so much longer when prices are low to recover this and thus make it less worthwhile in starting at all.

There is a limit on how low they can go and i think it has reached this.

brianmacl

topcatcbr wrote: »

The prices are dropping quickly. This may in part be due to those who have already recovered the initial investment and can thus reduce prices. It is going to be harder for someone setting up from now on as it will take so much longer when prices are low to recover this and thus make it less worthwhile in starting at all.

There is a limit on how low they can go and i think it has reached this.

I think that SEI are possibly assisting in making this the lowest possible price. If they dropped the fee from €25 to €5 I would suggest that this would trigger a further serrious cut as people could do more jobs at a lower price before hitting the €37,500 turn over limit to avoid charging VAT.

Worst / best case scenario
Now assuming that some people are willing to earn before personal tax €24,000 a year then and they have to have a gross business income of €31,000 to acheive this then they will be able to carry out over 1,051 assesments in a year, thus would be able to charge about €36 per cert. that is of course not allowing for an increas in expenses due to the extra travel, etc it also assumes that a person could do about 5 assesments a day, 5 days a week for 48 weeks a year allowing for some sick time and time to manage a business.

No6

Brian I think you're living in the wrong Country if every assessor currently registered (About 1200 of them) did 1000 assessments a year there would be 1,200,000 sales and rentals a year!!!! do we even have that many houses in the country!!! Could we invade England perhaps!!! or Spain the weather is better!!!:D

sinnerboy

brianmacl wrote: »

You have just provided the section that is flawed, i have underlined and made bold the wording that I beleive is wrong.

Houses are not offered for sale. A washing machine or fridge is offered for sale in a shop, if there is a price tag on it and you pay the shop keeper that amount you get the fridge or washing machine. However houses are sold with an "asking price" or "AMV" and people are invited to make an offer on the property, if you offer the price being asked for you are not entittled to get the house, this method of sale is described as an invitation to treat. The house is not offered for sale while being marketed.

This may make prossecutions under SI666 virtually impossible

To me it looks like who ever drew up this legislation coppied and pasted from the legislation that was introduced so that household appliences that were offere for sale should include an energy rating slicker and propbably forgot first year contract law.

You may well have a point in law , i simply don't know . New legislation is often found to have weaknesses when tested in courts we know that .

But this will not change matters much , BER is here to stay . Perhaps a test case may trigger a Minister to issue short amending SI if required to tighten up the legislation .

sinnerboy

Smcgie wrote: »

I love the way to tear a thread apart when its wrong :P

I'll take that as a compliment

brianmacl

No6 wrote: »

Brian I think you're living in the wrong Country if every assessor currently registered (About 1200 of them) did 1000 assessments a year there would be 1,200,000 sales and rentals a year!!!! do we even have that many houses in the country!!! Could we invade England perhaps!!! or Spain the weather is better!!!:D

I don't think that the 1,200 registered Assessors or the other 1,200 that are going to be registered over the next while are going to work in this area full time or even close to full time. Further more those numbers are a bit more of a mind experiment than actual reality but, it does show that there is scope for further drops in price but I believe that the SEI's fee €25 + VAT fee per property has made any further drop in price quite difficult.

muffler

brianmacl wrote: »

but I believe that the SEI's fee €25 + VAT fee per property has made any further drop in price quite difficult.

I think thats a very lame excuse to use.

brianmacl

sinnerboy wrote: »

You may well have a point in law , i simply don't know . New legislation is often found to have weaknesses when tested in courts we know that .

But this will not change matters much , BER is here to stay . Perhaps a test case may trigger a Minister to issue short amending SI if required to tighten up the legislation .

I do have a point of law:), one that SEI have been made aware of and are unable to answer at this point but will probably result in an amendment to SI666. The point is until the amendment comes, SI666 may be fately weak and unenforcable. If a test case was brought it would probably be thrown out in less than 5 minutes along with any future cases until the amendment.

brianmacl

muffler wrote: »

I think thats a very lame excuse to use.

Lets say the lowest price is €175 a pop all in, I think that it is the VAT limit of €37,500 turn over combined with the €25 plus VAT SEI charge that won't allow prices drop bellow this for the reasons I have outlined above. or possibly in another similar thread see below sorry.
this only allows a person earn about €24,000 a year.

VAT only has to be charged if the business you are planning on getting in has turnover greater than €37,500.

Now not including the start up costs (these may have been covered by a redundancy package for instance) if a BER assessor was to carry out assessments at an average price of €175 that assessor can only do 214 assessments a year without having to charge VAT.

Now the BER Assessor then has to pay SEI €30.38 (incl VAT) per assesment this makes aprox €6,500 for the 214 assesments, which allows a gross income of €31,000 now deduct expences such as travel, insurance, electricity.... and the net income could be as low as €24,000 per anum. and you still have to knock the tax off, however this is better than sitting on the dole which may be the other option considering the current market situation.

The above is assuming doing 5 assessments a week for about 43 weeks a year, which may sound nice but for every assesment carried out people have to do marketing to get the assessments in.

muffler

brianmacl I have no reason to doubt your figures at all but I do note that you have just about covered everything but you must be charging a hell of a lot more for expenses etc that what we can justifiably charge here in Donegal.

In any event I dont know or even know of anyone who is doing this for a living. Its a secondary income for everyone in the business. I will accept that there may be a couple of assessors in the cities who hope to make this a sustainable venture but I believe they are in for a shock.

And anyone who can run off a couple of assessments every week over and above their full time employment are doing well.

topcatcbr

I dont understand what the last few posts are about. Is it just the vat or is it that €175 is too much to charge for a BER or what.

Why would it matter where you get the money to set up (redundency)?

If I get to the point where I turn over €37,500 I will consider myself very fortunate and have no prob registering for VAT. I dont see this happening too soon.

Muffler I think brianmacl has seriously underestimated setting up costs and running costs.
I have out lined costs in another post for a suggestion of doing BERs for €150

Its just not feasible.

brianmacl

Wow I have only been posting for about a week and I am already getting fans:)

muffler wrote: »

brianmacl I have no reason to doubt your figures at all but I do note that you have just about covered everything but you must be charging a hell of a lot more for expenses etc that what we can justifiably charge here in Donegal.

In any event I dont know or even know of anyone who is doing this for a living. Its a secondary income for everyone in the business. I will accept that there may be a couple of assessors in the cities who hope to make this a sustainable venture but I believe they are in for a shock.

And anyone who can run off a couple of assessments every week over and above their full time employment are doing well.

Mileage expences alone assuming you use your own car are about €1 a mile, that is from the revenue commissioners calculation. Then there is a mobile phone which works out about €1,200 per year and then there are the insurance costs €800. easy enough to find about 7k in axpenses.

topcatcbr wrote: »

I dont understand what the last few posts are about. Is it just the vat or is it that €175 is too much to charge for a BER or what.

Why would it matter where you get the money to set up (redundency)?

If I get to the point where I turn over €37,500 I will consider myself very fortunate and have no prob registering for VAT. I dont see this happening too soon.

Muffler I think brianmacl has seriously underestimated setting up costs and running costs.
I have out lined costs in another post for a suggestion of doing BERs for €150

Its just not feasible.

The reason I mentioned the possibilities of redundency covering the start up costs was because I already saw a long and detailed and very good post on the start up costs (probably the one by you, refered to above), so i felt that this was an easy way of jumping over that already covered ground.

€37,500 is kind of important because if a sole trader is going to pass that the sole trader must be VAT registered and the VAT is not just applicable on everything over the €37,500. To reduce a fee by as much as possible means that the first part you may feel like cutting is the VAT. This instantly makes you about 17% cheaper than your opposition.

all in all I actually do beleive in the short term it is possible to do BERs for €175-€200 assuming you can get close to 200 jobs in a year and don't mind living on only €24,000 per year while there is a recession, but in the longer term as people move out of the industry it will become easier charge more and earn more.

topcatcbr

Ah now I see.:)
I think we are saying the same thing.

Smcgie

Just after putting a house through DEAP for provisional BER.

In the results section (compliance with Build reg 2008) Failed on:

Floors with no underfloor heat: u-value =0.28
Walls = 0.32
%of open areas = 29.5
Average U-value openings = 2.8

The fact that this is my first provisional and that its a new built i am wondering will SEI accept it the fact its not complying? Is anyone seeing much of the results failing? Maybe this is common....

sydthebeat

Smcgie wrote: »

Just after putting a house through DEAP for provisional BER.

In the results section (compliance with Build reg 2008) Failed on:

Floors with no underfloor heat: u-value =0.28
Walls = 0.32
%of open areas = 29.5
Average U-value openings = 2.8

The fact that this is my first provisional and that its a new built i am wondering will SEI accept it the fact its not complying? Is anyone seeing much of the results failing? Maybe this is common....

why input values that will not be built???
the construction HAS TO comply with building regs...

oh, and SEI have nothing to do with building control....

Smcgie

sydthebeat wrote: »

why input values that will not be built???
the construction HAS TO comply with building regs...

oh, and SEI have nothing to do with building control....

I am going by plans that are dated 2007, but the dwelling is not currently constructed.

I have a set of plans that have passed PP and the owner simply wants the energy rating pre build so that i can recommend on how to improve the rating. I have finished the assessment on his plans and spec but its failing the above U-Value (Avg) compliance.

Do i fill in U-values on behalf of the client that are up to current building regs or do i send the cert in and then take into account when laying out the advisory report and recommend thicker insulation etc... that will pass building regs?

sinnerboy

now I can see why some certs will be produced more cheaply than others

Smcgie

sinnerboy wrote: »

now I can see why some certs will be produced more cheaply than others

Would you like to be a little more explicit?:rolleyes:

muffler

Take it to PM lads if there is a problem.

sydthebeat

Smcgie wrote: »

I am going by plans that are dated 2007, but the dwelling is not currently constructed.

I have a set of plans that have passed PP and the owner simply wants the energy rating pre build so that i can recommend on how to improve the rating. I have finished the assessment on his plans and spec but its failing the above U-Value (Avg) compliance.

Do i fill in U-values on behalf of the client that are up to current building regs or do i send the cert in and then take into account when laying out the advisory report and recommend thicker insulation etc... that will pass building regs?

Edit: apologies for unacceptable tone.

At the very minimum the starting point of a prelim cert is the current building regs.

sinnerboy

Smcgie wrote: »

Would you like to be a little more explicit?:rolleyes:

Apologies , Smcgie that was a bit sharp.

A fundamental and arguably the most vital part of the BER assessor service is not simply detarming the BER cert / "label" but the Advisory Report attached to it . In the context of a new house you need to advise if spec proposals will not comply with building regs

Smcgie

sinnerboy wrote: »

Apologies , Smcgie that was a bit sharp.

A fundamental and arguably the most vital part of the BER assessor service is not simply detarming the BER cert / "label" but the Advisory Report attached to it . In the context of a new house you need to advise if spec proposals will not comply with building regs

I fully understand this, but after putting the clients information into the DEAP software his house pre build has failed building regs. I understand that in my advisory report that the spec must pass building regs.

The question i am asking now is will SEI have a problem when i publish the cert i have input from his (current) plans as they have failed building regs,

to break it down will SEI still publish the cert?

Thanks.

sinnerboy

Smcgie wrote: »

to break it down will SEI still publish the cert?
Thanks.

( genuinely) not being smart - the SEI assessor helpline people are good at this sort of query

I suspect that SEI would issue the cert , they are not mandated to enforce building regs .

Perhaps you would enquire at SEI Assessors [registered@ber.sei.ie] and share the response with us ?

topcatcbr

This is a prelim ber cert and the reason it shows a failure is so that you can advise your client as such. You can publish a prelim but why bother paying sei twice. when your client does build they will have to build in accordance with current TGD's min standards. Your Job is to advise them on how to make their home at least comply you should also explain how they can exceed the TGDs within their budget. This is a part of building design and the reason why I have been saying that the training agencies should have applied SEI guidance on who they allowed to do the course. Now im not saying that you should or shouldnt have been allowed do this course and the last thing i wish to do is put anybody down but the fact you are asking this type of question does not inspire confidence.

I also think that this is the wrong place to post this type of question. The BERAA has a board and I notice that you have started this discussion there also.

It is my opinion that this is where you should have left it as it is private and not open to public critisim.

I wish you all the best and hope you take no offence to my post as none was meant.

Regards Dave

sydthebeat

why would you publish the perlim cert???... thats only of use if they are trying to sell / rent off the plans...


just do the calcs... print the report.... it will be called up on this..


advise them of the requirements to meet minimum regs...
as i said above, the minimum current regulations should be the starting point of a prelim cert, not the goal....

then advise them of possible upgrades to get a better rating...

Smcgie

topcatcbr wrote: »

the last thing i wish to do is put anybody down but the fact you are asking this type of question does not inspire confidence.

I consider myself quiet capable of completing a BER, i posted here for opinion of the board about an issue i am having with a prov cert (my first prov). The client has asked for the Prov cert print, so i don't mind charging him the 25+vat if he wants it. I know this is ludicrous as that leaves him paying twice but he asked for the print out.

The dwelling has failed mainly on the % of openings, the u-values i can change to building regs, i am only asking would SEI have a problem with releasing the cert as its not compliant with building regs

Having rang the client he confirms with me that there are 2 windows that must be removed from the plans.:rolleyes:

Thanks for you help anyway, i have been misunderstood... maybe i should be more clearer on the answer i am after.

Regards

Smcgie

topcatcbr wrote: »

I also think that this is the wrong place to post this type of question. The BERAA has a board and I notice that you have started this discussion there also.

Regards Dave

I'l be taking this advice strongly..

No6

Smcgie wrote: »

I consider myself quiet capable of completing a BER, i posted here for opinion of the board about an issue i am having with a prov cert (my first prov). The client has asked for the Prov cert print, so i don't mind charging him the 25+vat if he wants it. I know this is ludicrous as that leaves him paying twice but he asked for the print out.

The dwelling has failed mainly on the % of openings, the u-values i can change to building regs, i am only asking would SEI have a problem with releasing the cert as its not compliant with building regs

Having rang the client he confirms with me that there are 2 windows that must be removed from the plans.:rolleyes:

Thanks for you help anyway, i have been misunderstood... maybe i should be more clearer on the answer i am after.

Regards

Smcgie

I would advise him to at least get the design compliant first, as he hasn't built the house yet you can improve the glazing rating and the u values and get it to comply, upload it as an xml to NAS and let it generate the notices just don't publish until you have confirmed they can be fixed or not!!

Cheers