RWC Final '07 - South Africa V England (Saturday 8pm)

Imhof Tank

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Yes I know it's the Final
But can we just ignore the result in the group stages. 36-0
less that a month ago .Yes England have improved, But SA (IMO) won that game in first gear and where never under any pressure..
Ok
My Question is what has changed to made people think that this could be a close game or contest?
(Not being smart, like to heard views /reasons)

Ask the ABs what changed with France from the time of the hammerings in Autum 05 to the qf of this tournament?

Answer - France raised their game AND nz were complacent because of past results.

England are defending champions in a world cup final and will raise their game so thats one side of the equation. If SA for one moment allow your thinking to enter their heads, they are liable to throw it away.

Dont think they will though, but it wont be 36-0 again

MooseJam

I'm cheering for England because SA said it was like winning already when NZ and AUS went out

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The 2 teams that are in the Final seem to be the 2 teams that have made the least mistakes.

SA have looked the most impressive team, scoring lots of tries, good defence, excellent lineout expecially Matfield is a class act. Only drawback is scrum, Argies got the shove on a few times. England can target this. SA have not truly been tested in this WC imo. They've somehow avoided the big guns of NZ, OZ, France. Argentina, and Fiji played into SA hands with expansive rugby. Habana is the ace up their sleeve, and he's a serious threat as proved yesterday. When he gets running at full tilt I just keep thinking of that race against the cheetah.


England have had the harder route into the Final. They managed to beat OZ, and France in really tight games. Also kept both teams scoreless in the second half iirc. While on the downside England aren't really that creative, and it'll be hard to see where the tries will come from. On the plus side their defence, lineout, scrum etc are all top notch. They play percentages, and they do what they're good at well. They are a very well managed, disciplined, organised team, and they can frustrate SA.

Verdict: If its a tight low scoring game England will win. If SA play like their capable of and get a couple of tries in the first half they will win, and comfortably. It will be an interesting game either way.

I think that's a fair appraisal of the situation. Sure SA are going to be favourites, but if the bookies really are offering 13-1 on for SA then they must be mad, I'd have thought that after giving 7/2 on to Australia they would have learnt. still, you won't see my losing sleep over the bookies losing a few bob.

toomevara

ROCKMAN wrote: »

My Question is what has changed to made people think that this could be a close game or contest?

Because it's quite clear that the 36-0 drubbing by SA over a month ago was the catalyst for the spectacular change in England's fortunes. it was the drubbing that forced them back to what they're good at, a tough forward based attritional style, taking their points, any points, when they can get them....

After the SA defeat all those involved in the England camp had a huge analysis session where no punches were pulled and it was decided that the training regime and game plan had to be changed. Apparently it was a fiery no-holds-barred affair which led to a fundamental change of strategy. Ireland take note.

RuggieBear

toomevara wrote: »

Ireland take note.

Yep. At the moment if a player said a word they'd never play for Ireland again.

Junior

RuggieBear wrote: »

Yep. At the moment if a player said a word they'd never play for Ireland again.

[offtopic]
Really do you think it's that bad ? I think fair enough we mightn't see Stringer back in the starting 15 ever again, but is everyone else brainwashed enough to stay quiet ? Would the IRFU drop someone like O'Connell if he had the balls to stand up and be counted ?
[/offtopic]

Come on SA - btw !

Stev_o

ThomasH wrote: »

SA scored 4 tries (almost 5). Two intercepts and the other 2 was great finished play but the backline. Please explain how it is a mirror of Eng's game when they could only score 1 try in their last 2 matches??

Well two intercepts aint the miracle of expansive play like many people are starting to think all of sudden.

3rd Try was a individual effort of Habana not exactly a magical backline move

4th try came from turn over ball with a 3/4 man overlap and consisted off again individual effort with a lovely offload.

Steyn has done nothing in this RWC and last night showed once again all he did was make a break leading to a disallowed try and his drop goal attempts and kicking game have been laughable. I dont think he'll handle the pressure come next week.

Its going to be the same old SA side in with the forwards and quick ball to Habana to cut the defense once they'v been sucked in

mike65

Why England might win

The pack - the line outs and scrums/rucks will be well contested but I see England just having the edge, they'll keep it low and dirty.

Tactical use of space - this has been easily thier least impressive aspect therefore it can only get better! They might stop kicking away possession on the cheap.

The pressure - is not on England as no-one including them thought they'd be contesting the final.

Wilkinson, okay he's only been 50/50 so far but he's only got to get a few kicks spot on at the right times - which seems to be his forte.

Esprit de corps - something you can't measure as such but England has it, several players will be bowing out after this match so will throw themselves into the fire and not worry about getting burnt.

Mike.

remus808

mike65 wrote: »

Esprit de corps

I think this is something SA definitely have the edge in, as this is likely to be the last time there will ever be a "proper" team from there, and they know it.

MooseJam

karmabass wrote: »

I think this is something SA definitely have the edge in, as this is likely to be the last time there will ever be a "proper" team from there, and they know it.

what are the new rules that are being brought in over there that everyone is talking about

patmac

1954 Soccer World Cup
Group Stages: Hungary 8 Germany 3
World Cup Final: Germany 3 Hungary 2.
Mind you the Germans kicked the feck out of Hungary's best player Puskas and their was no subs in them days.
So you never know shudders at thought.

RuggieBear

MooseJam wrote: »

what are the new rules that are being brought in over there that everyone is talking about

quotas for non white players

ThomasH

Well two intercepts aint the miracle of expansive play like many people are starting to think all of sudden.

3rd Try was a individual effort of Habana not exactly a magical backline move

4th try came from turn over ball with a 3/4 man overlap and consisted off again individual effort with a lovely offload.

Steyn has done nothing in this RWC and last night showed once again all he did was make a break leading to a disallowed try and his drop goal attempts and kicking game have been laughable. I dont think he'll handle the pressure come next week.

Its going to be the same old SA side in with the forwards and quick ball to Habana to cut the defense once they'v been sucked in

Neither is two intercepts regarded as a 10 man game play.
3rd try was a backline move to Habana where he created and scored, again nothing to do with the forwards!
4th try - And?? Again it proves that SA don't play like Eng as it was a well finished backline running including forwards with some good passing. Show me one match where Eng did that and scored a try.

Not really sure what your point about Steyn is or are you just as usual jealous of the young SA talent.

Not sure what SA team you have been watching but in their last two matches they managed to score 9 tries against Eng's 1 so what's your point?

MooseJam

RuggieBear wrote: »

quotas for non white players

Whose idea was that ?, obviously a bad idea , how bad will depend on the quota

ThomasH

Whose idea was that ?, obviously a bad idea , how bad will depend on the quota

The administration behind SA rugby backed by the government who mostly are non-white people.

toomevara

ThomasH wrote: »

The administration behind SA rugby backed by the government who mostly are non-white people.

Though I'm not in favour of discrimination in any way, shape or form, even of the positive variety, there may be method in Mbeki's madness. If Rugby becomes played by, and accesable to, the majority black population of south africa, God help us all because there are huge reservoirs of untapped talent out there just waiting for the chance to shine...

I'm afraid the Afrikaaners may have to loosen the reins of control just a little bit in the short term for what may be a huge long term gain for SA rugby. Don't forget that Brian Habbana, the pin up boy of SA rugby wouldn't have gotten near that team twenty years ago, not because of lack of merit, but because of the colour of his skin....

mikeruurds

toomevara wrote: »

Though I'm not in favour of discrimination in any way, shape or form, even of the positive variety, there may be method in Mbeki's madness. If Rugby becomes played by, and accesable to, the majority black population of south africa, God help us all because there are huge reservoirs of untapped talent out there just waiting for the chance to shine...

I'm afraid the Afrikaaners may have to loosen the reins of control just a little bit in the short term for what may be a huge long term gain for SA rugby. Don't forget that Brian Habbana, the pin up boy of SA rugby wouldn't have gotten near that team twenty years ago, not because of lack of merit, but because of the colour of his skin....

Past mistakes are no reason to make future errors. There just isn't enough international level talent to fill 11 positions with players of colour in a 22 player squad at the moment. The result will be massive losses and a loss in revenue by way of TV rights and match tickets. Transformation needs to occur in a manner that doesn't sabotage SA rugby.

No one in SA will support a team that loses. No matter what skin colour the players have. The government might be pushing this through, but Joe public doesn't like an enforced quota system. Many people have threatened to boycott all Bok merchandise and attendance at games.

SA needs transformation, but it won't benefit SA rugby if it is forced to happen in this way.

ThomasH

Though I'm not in favour of discrimination in any way, shape or form, even of the positive variety, there may be method in Mbeki's madness. If Rugby becomes played by, and accesable to, the majority black population of south africa, God help us all because there are huge reservoirs of untapped talent out there just waiting for the chance to shine...

I'm afraid the Afrikaaners may have to loosen the reins of control just a little bit in the short term for what may be a huge long term gain for SA rugby. Don't forget that Brian Habbana, the pin up boy of SA rugby wouldn't have gotten near that team twenty years ago, not because of lack of merit, but because of the colour of his skin....

I agree that SA needs to tap into the talent of all young rugby players regardless of their colour. The issue rather is that the administration wants to take young non-white players and turn them over night into rugby stars. Most of these young guys would only have started playing rugby in their late teens (17,18, etc.) Look at guys like Eddie Andrews, Solly Tyibilika, etc. they were never really that good but were chosen because of quotas.

The Afrikaners have no problem with good coloured players being selected. SA supporters feel it should be fair and square when it comes to selections.

Brian Habana and JP Pietersen come a long way as they both played under Jake White when they've won the u/21 WC. Jake introduced them slowly to the springboks team and look at them now, both very talented players.

Peyton Manning

Habana to score 3 tries, SA to win

And yes, I have put my money where my mouth is.

LordSutch

England to win (just) ~ one try each for 'Robinson' & 'Sackey' + Jonny to kick a couple of drop goals too . . .

Very tight match > not pretty!

but its all hypothetical anyway

Brewster

Just a quick thread to wish England all the best on Saturday. Tony Ward summed it for me in Indo yesterday. Excellent read. Lets keep the trophy in the Northern Hemisphere..

badbrian

I was glad to see them win it for the N Hemisphere the last RWC, but I'd much rather S.Africa win. They completely outclassed them in the 36-0 win and if England grind out a win (and let's face it there's no chance they're going to run at the Boks) it would be a travesty.

Bounty Hunter

yep nice sentiment wishing "the old enemy" good luck but put simply S.Africa play more entertaining Rugby and when Ireland are not involved I want the more entertaining team to win. Also I think that it would really make little of the standard of world rugby if England who lost their first game 36-0 and have for the past number of years been terrible were crowned world champs. However if they somehow pull off another shock this weekend they will deserve to be WC winners cause dour tactics or not they would have beaten everyone when they had to and will get my respect.

Brewster

Fair sentiments bounty. Points well made. I know if we were in final they would support us. Its not easy knowing we have beaten them the last four times, but on balance I will give them my support. Wont be everyones cup of tea.

cavedave

I also wish England all the best.

Not to get all rationalist here but luck does not exist

People who are lucky are just more observant and open to new things. So instead of "Good luck" you really are just wishing for them "Be observant and open to new experiences".

And do not get me started on praying for sports teams to win a game.

toomevara

The Boks..consistently good, a joy to watch and surprisingly understated.

The English..unprecendented turnaround, fabulous grit and commitment.

Both worthy potential champions, good luck to 'em. Just looking forward to a good final....

T-Maxx

Yeah England - "Be observant and open to new experiences".

aka

Look and Learn

:D:D

Here's to the Boks - hope they thump them even harder than last time.:D

LordSutch

I just dont get it with 'some' Irish people > if Ireland, Scotland or Wales were actually in the WORLD CUP FINAL everybody in these islands (I mean everybody) including the English would be cheering & going crazy for them ..............

Can you imagine Scotland, Ireland, or Wales in a 'WORLD CUP FINAL' and the English not supporting them

But because 'England' is the only one to get through, its sour grapes from 'some' so called Irish Rugby fans ..........

C'Mon England & make the Fairytale come true.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

is_that_so

ArthurF wrote: »

I just dont get it with 'some' Irish people > if Ireland, Scotland or Wales were actually in the WORLD CUP FINAL everybody in these islands (I mean everybody) including the English would be cheering & going crazy for them ..............

Can you imagine Scotland, Ireland, or Wales in a 'WORLD CUP FINAL' and the English not supporting them

But because 'England' is the only one to get through, its sour grapes from 'some' so called Irish Rugby fans ..........

C'Mon England & make the Fairytale come true.

Not wanting to England to win is not necessarily sour grapes. Not sure about this "let's support them cos they are our neighbours" bit. I think SA play a much better and more attractive form of rugby. Were the reverse true I'd be shouting for England.