RWC Final '07 - South Africa V England (Saturday 8pm)

RuggieBear

Erm...sorry lads i've made a balls of editing some thread titles (and deleted the threads) so please post about the RWC final here.

Smart money is on SA but there is the fanatical determination of England and the Wilco factor..

Prediction: Great game!

Stev_o

Wilko to kick England to victory. This is going to be one boring match me's thinks . Are all the people ranting on about how SA play 15 man flourishing rugby happy after watching that performance?

These two teams are exact mirrors of each other bar one team has Habanna and the other doesnt.

*Sigh* Oh well i hope im proved wrong and it turns out to be the best final yet

is_that_so

SA may not have been fantastic but they still managed to score four tries. Even on a bad day the potential was there.
Next week could be awful OK . I reckon if SA get a decent lead and force England to play it could be a cracker.

Imhof Tank

England benefited from Oz and France not playing their normal games are getting involved in slugfests.

SA trusted themselves late in games in 2 tight situations against Tonga and Fiji.

So, if SA stay positive and forget about so called percentages rugby they can pull away. It wont be easy by any means but they have the skills.

mikeruurds

Please Boks. Bring the cup home. It's been 12 long years.

Stev_o

Its not a surprise that England and South Africa are in the final. Simply put it was a English club that won the Heineken it was a South Africa team that won the Super 14. In both cases it was a all English and all South Africa final.

ThomasH

Wilko to kick England to victory. This is going to be one boring match me's thinks . Are all the people ranting on about how SA play 15 man flourishing rugby happy after watching that performance?

These two teams are exact mirrors of each other bar one team has Habanna and the other doesnt.

*Sigh* Oh well i hope im proved wrong and it turns out to be the best final yet

SA scored 4 tries (almost 5). Two intercepts and the other 2 was great finished play but the backline. Please explain how it is a mirror of Eng's game when they could only score 1 try in their last 2 matches??

Marshy

SA have no chance. This is an outstanding English side who look unbeatable at the moment. SA will be outclassed by the hugely expansive game England have employed in recent games. I just don't know how the boks can cope with the pace out wide and in the centre that the English possess.

ThomasH

SA have no chance. This is an outstanding English side who look unbeatable at the moment. SA will be outclassed by the hugely expansive game England have employed in recent games. I just don't know how the boks can cope with the pace out wide and in the centre that the English possess.

In your dreams mate...England can't score tries and live of the mistakes of the opposition and rely heavily on Johnny Wilkinson. Both Aus and Fra were afwul against Eng and in those two games Eng only scored 1 try against SA's 9 tries in their past 2 games. It will be a tight game controlled by the forwards but SA's backs will have an edge of the Eng back. Jason Robinson will be difficult to stop though.

BOHSBOHS

em easy now.. i think marshy was being sarcastic

nacho libre

Marshy wrote: »

SA have no chance. This is an outstanding English side who look unbeatable at the moment. SA will be outclassed by the hugely expansive game England have employed in recent games. I just don't know how the boks can cope with the pace out wide and in the centre that the English possess.

England do have a very good defense, though, and unlike argentina they'll win their own line out ball and possibly will have the edge in the front row at scrum time. i think South Africa have a superior back row but it won't be enough. England to win on penalties by three points or more

remus808

Stev_o wrote: »

Wilko to kick England to victory. This is going to be one boring match me's thinks . Are all the people ranting on about how SA play 15 man flourishing rugby happy after watching that performance?

These two teams are exact mirrors of each other bar one team has Habanna and the other doesnt.

*Sigh* Oh well i hope im proved wrong and it turns out to be the best final yet

Ah come on...

England have Robinson!!
SA have Burger, Steyn, DuPreez, Matfield.
England don't have players of that quality.

I think Steyn and Montgomery combined are a force to equal Wilko when it comes to kicking.

Inquitus

England havent a chance in hell of winning the final, unless SA completely fail to turn up like Aus and France did.

England are completely unable to score more than 15-20 points, any side that can will beat them.

Endurance Man

Inquitus wrote: »

England havent a chance in hell of winning the final, unless SA completely fail to turn up like Aus and France did.

England are completely unable to score more than 15-20 points, any side that can will beat them.

Exactly! England cannot score tries and that is evident throughout their campaign. All SA have to do is score two tries and the rest will follow. England will have to try attack using their back row and the interceptions will come thick and fast!
Backing the boys!! Various people have been saying watch league rugby if you want to see try's, that is rubbish! Any world class team should be able to score try's against world class opposition, england have failed to do this. They have failed to score trys because they rely to heavily on their forward pack.

vorbis

Is it possible for both teams to lose?

Feeling a little grumpy as I don't want to see England retain the world cup yet at the saem time don't want the Boks (marginally less arrogant than the All Blacks) to win it.

Saying South Africa play an expansive game is laughable. England and South Africa will have exactly the same game plan. The edge for the Boks is as someone said the ability of Habana to nick a try out of nothing. Thats very effective but hardly back play.

I'll say England to win an incredibly dour match 11 to 9.

mikeruurds

vorbis wrote: »

Is it possible for both teams to lose?

Feeling a little grumpy as I don't want to see England retain the world cup yet at the saem time don't want the Boks (marginally less arrogant than the All Blacks) to win it.

Saying South Africa play an expansive game is laughable. England and South Africa will have exactly the same game plan. The edge for the Boks is as someone said the ability of Habana to nick a try out of nothing. Thats very effective but hardly back play.

I'll say England to win an incredibly dour match 11 to 9.

Would you not consider Habana's first try decent back play?? Don't forget that the Boks put 4 tries past an Argie defence that had allowed less than that through in the previous WC games in total.

Linford

SA should win the final. They won't let the occassion get to them ala NZ. So confident/arrogant.

Only things going against them could be their discipline and the fact that England are the underdogs and have less to lose, they should be able to cope with the scrum, line out is superior, 9 12 13 11 and 14 far superior, 15 is probably better but not in attack.

The only time SA looked vulnerable in the whole world cup (I am not counting the 2nds team v Tonga when they had won the group) was when they were 20-20 against Fiji, and look how they reacted to that; no panic, and 17 points in the last 10 minutes.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Fratton Fred

Endurance Man wrote: »

Exactly! England cannot score tries and that is evident throughout their campaign. All SA have to do is score two tries and the rest will follow. England will have to try attack using their back row and the interceptions will come thick and fast!
Backing the boys!! Various people have been saying watch league rugby if you want to see try's, that is rubbish! Any world class team should be able to score try's against world class opposition, england have failed to do this. They have failed to score trys because they rely to heavily on their forward pack.

you're right. how good was Wilko kicking all those points against Tonga and Samoa;)

shame they didn't score a try against France's world class defence as well:rolleyes:

ThomasH

Feeling a little grumpy as I don't want to see England retain the world cup yet at the saem time don't want the Boks (marginally less arrogant than the All Blacks) to win it.

Marginally less arrogant?? That is hilarious as you don't have to look further than the Irish captain Brian O'Driscoll went it comes to being arrogant. But then again it might just be confidence and passion

Saying South Africa play an expansive game is laughable. England and South Africa will have exactly the same game plan. The edge for the Boks is as someone said the ability of Habana to nick a try out of nothing. Thats very effective but hardly back play.

Well then enlighten us to your expert knowledge of what an expansive game is. SA in this WC did play a very expansive game but also had a good balance between backs and forwards on the occasion when it was required. They can run it out wide and scored tries and still involve their forwards in the running.

Hydroquinone

See this notion of teams "not turning up". What is it really supposed to mean?
It's been said over and over again in this WC. It makes no sense.

Any team that goes to the World Cup in any sport goes there to play their socks off and beat all the other boys. If the other team on the day stifles them and doesn't let them play, surely that means the other team have just done their homework better and know how to stop them? Why is that a bad thing? Surely it is a creditable thing to be on the winning side, when you've stopped your opponents in their tracks. Saying that team X or team Y didn't turn up suggests that those teams weren't trying. And anyone who thinks that Sebastien Chabal and Fabien Pelous and co weren't trying on Saturday is clearly deluded.

Going on the pre-tournament forecasts, if any team shouldn't have bothered actually turning up, it it was England, who've won precisely nothing of any note since the last World Cup.
Yet, lookit, they're in the final.

I hope the final is very tight. I hope it's as close and as exciting as the last WC final, with the lead being swapped about as the minutes go by. That's what finals should be like - two teams who are closely matched and who are both committed to winning. As to who will win it, though, God knows.
And he's about the only one who does, at this stage.:D

Fratton Fred

I think it has been said befire, which is the better final one that is 16-13 with ten minutes to go, of one that is over at half time?

I don;t know wht people want, What tactics should you employ against a team that can get the ball out wide and score trys on either wing? Let them play that way and hope to beat them at it, or keep it tight, slow the game down and keep the ball. Just like England did against Australia?

I remember Thierry Henry complaining that in the world cup, he didn’t get the chance to play nice football because he was being marked too close…. Err, isn’t that the point of a defence? Great attacking play is only great attacking play if it can overcome great defending.

Inquitus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

shame they didn't score a try against France's world class defence as well:rolleyes:

lol, a freak bounce of the ball, and a defensive error, that was hardly a try brought about by flowing attacking and running rugby.

Only way England can score a try is by pure fluke like that, or rumbling over from a couple of yards in the unlikely event that they find themselves that far up the pitch.

Fratton Fred

Inquitus wrote: »

lol, a freak bounce of the ball, and a defensive error, that was hardly a try brought about by flowing attacking and running rugby.

Only way England can score a try is by pure fluke like that, or rumbling over from a couple of yards in the unlikely event that they find themselves that far up the pitch.

ouch:D

Endurance Man

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you're right. how good was Wilko kicking all those points against Tonga and Samoa;)

shame they didn't score a try against France's world class defence as well:rolleyes:

That try was a complete fluke tbh, and i don't see wilko's boot kicking them out of a 2-3 try deficit. They either need to figure out how to score trys or just defend for 80 minutes.

ThomasH

See this notion of teams "not turning up". What is it really supposed to mean?
It's been said over and over again in this WC. It makes no sense.

Any team that goes to the World Cup in any sport goes there to play their socks off and beat all the other boys. If the other team on the day stifles them and doesn't let them play, surely that means the other team have just done their homework better and know how to stop them? Why is that a bad thing? Surely it is a creditable thing to be on the winning side, when you've stopped your opponents in their tracks. Saying that team X or team Y didn't turn up suggests that those teams weren't trying. And anyone who thinks that Sebastien Chabal and Fabien Pelous and co weren't trying on Saturday is clearly deluded.

Well, Ireland is generally a good rugby team with world class players but in this world cup they just did not turn up. They really struggled in every match but still hammered Eng in the 6N this year and beat SA and Aus last year in the autumn tests. So you could say they did not turn up.

Erin Go Brath

The 2 teams that are in the Final seem to be the 2 teams that have made the least mistakes.

SA have looked the most impressive team, scoring lots of tries, good defence, excellent lineout expecially Matfield is a class act. Only drawback is scrum, Argies got the shove on a few times. England can target this. SA have not truly been tested in this WC imo. They've somehow avoided the big guns of NZ, OZ, France. Argentina, and Fiji played into SA hands with expansive rugby. Habana is the ace up their sleeve, and he's a serious threat as proved yesterday. When he gets running at full tilt I just keep thinking of that race against the cheetah.


England have had the harder route into the Final. They managed to beat OZ, and France in really tight games. Also kept both teams scoreless in the second half iirc. While on the downside England aren't really that creative, and it'll be hard to see where the tries will come from. On the plus side their defence, lineout, scrum etc are all top notch. They play percentages, and they do what they're good at well. They are a very well managed, disciplined, organised team, and they can frustrate SA.

Verdict: If its a tight low scoring game England will win. If SA play like their capable of and get a couple of tries in the first half they will win, and comfortably. It will be an interesting game either way.

ROCKMAN

Yes I know it's the Final
But can we just ignore the result in the group stages. 36-0
less that a month ago .Yes England have improved, But SA (IMO) won that game in first gear and where never under any pressure..
Ok
My Question is what has changed to made people think that this could be a close game or contest?
(Not being smart, like to heard views /reasons)

ThomasH

SA struggled in the scrums in their last few matches and Eng didn't. SA's discipline was not great and if you make that mistake against Johnny Wilkinson he will punish you.

SameDifference

My soul is now broken...

all the team I backed got knocked out...

I guess i'll support England...grumble...

Imhof Tank

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Yes I know it's the Final
But can we just ignore the result in the group stages. 36-0
less that a month ago .Yes England have improved, But SA (IMO) won that game in first gear and where never under any pressure..
Ok
My Question is what has changed to made people think that this could be a close game or contest?
(Not being smart, like to heard views /reasons)

Ask the ABs what changed with France from the time of the hammerings in Autum 05 to the qf of this tournament?

Answer - France raised their game AND nz were complacent because of past results.

England are defending champions in a world cup final and will raise their game so thats one side of the equation. If SA for one moment allow your thinking to enter their heads, they are liable to throw it away.

Dont think they will though, but it wont be 36-0 again

MooseJam

I'm cheering for England because SA said it was like winning already when NZ and AUS went out

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The 2 teams that are in the Final seem to be the 2 teams that have made the least mistakes.

SA have looked the most impressive team, scoring lots of tries, good defence, excellent lineout expecially Matfield is a class act. Only drawback is scrum, Argies got the shove on a few times. England can target this. SA have not truly been tested in this WC imo. They've somehow avoided the big guns of NZ, OZ, France. Argentina, and Fiji played into SA hands with expansive rugby. Habana is the ace up their sleeve, and he's a serious threat as proved yesterday. When he gets running at full tilt I just keep thinking of that race against the cheetah.


England have had the harder route into the Final. They managed to beat OZ, and France in really tight games. Also kept both teams scoreless in the second half iirc. While on the downside England aren't really that creative, and it'll be hard to see where the tries will come from. On the plus side their defence, lineout, scrum etc are all top notch. They play percentages, and they do what they're good at well. They are a very well managed, disciplined, organised team, and they can frustrate SA.

Verdict: If its a tight low scoring game England will win. If SA play like their capable of and get a couple of tries in the first half they will win, and comfortably. It will be an interesting game either way.

I think that's a fair appraisal of the situation. Sure SA are going to be favourites, but if the bookies really are offering 13-1 on for SA then they must be mad, I'd have thought that after giving 7/2 on to Australia they would have learnt. still, you won't see my losing sleep over the bookies losing a few bob.

toomevara

ROCKMAN wrote: »

My Question is what has changed to made people think that this could be a close game or contest?

Because it's quite clear that the 36-0 drubbing by SA over a month ago was the catalyst for the spectacular change in England's fortunes. it was the drubbing that forced them back to what they're good at, a tough forward based attritional style, taking their points, any points, when they can get them....

After the SA defeat all those involved in the England camp had a huge analysis session where no punches were pulled and it was decided that the training regime and game plan had to be changed. Apparently it was a fiery no-holds-barred affair which led to a fundamental change of strategy. Ireland take note.

RuggieBear

toomevara wrote: »

Ireland take note.

Yep. At the moment if a player said a word they'd never play for Ireland again.

Junior

RuggieBear wrote: »

Yep. At the moment if a player said a word they'd never play for Ireland again.

[offtopic]
Really do you think it's that bad ? I think fair enough we mightn't see Stringer back in the starting 15 ever again, but is everyone else brainwashed enough to stay quiet ? Would the IRFU drop someone like O'Connell if he had the balls to stand up and be counted ?
[/offtopic]

Come on SA - btw !

Stev_o

ThomasH wrote: »

SA scored 4 tries (almost 5). Two intercepts and the other 2 was great finished play but the backline. Please explain how it is a mirror of Eng's game when they could only score 1 try in their last 2 matches??

Well two intercepts aint the miracle of expansive play like many people are starting to think all of sudden.

3rd Try was a individual effort of Habana not exactly a magical backline move

4th try came from turn over ball with a 3/4 man overlap and consisted off again individual effort with a lovely offload.

Steyn has done nothing in this RWC and last night showed once again all he did was make a break leading to a disallowed try and his drop goal attempts and kicking game have been laughable. I dont think he'll handle the pressure come next week.

Its going to be the same old SA side in with the forwards and quick ball to Habana to cut the defense once they'v been sucked in

mike65

Why England might win

The pack - the line outs and scrums/rucks will be well contested but I see England just having the edge, they'll keep it low and dirty.

Tactical use of space - this has been easily thier least impressive aspect therefore it can only get better! They might stop kicking away possession on the cheap.

The pressure - is not on England as no-one including them thought they'd be contesting the final.

Wilkinson, okay he's only been 50/50 so far but he's only got to get a few kicks spot on at the right times - which seems to be his forte.

Esprit de corps - something you can't measure as such but England has it, several players will be bowing out after this match so will throw themselves into the fire and not worry about getting burnt.

Mike.

remus808

mike65 wrote: »

Esprit de corps

I think this is something SA definitely have the edge in, as this is likely to be the last time there will ever be a "proper" team from there, and they know it.

MooseJam

karmabass wrote: »

I think this is something SA definitely have the edge in, as this is likely to be the last time there will ever be a "proper" team from there, and they know it.

what are the new rules that are being brought in over there that everyone is talking about

patmac

1954 Soccer World Cup
Group Stages: Hungary 8 Germany 3
World Cup Final: Germany 3 Hungary 2.
Mind you the Germans kicked the feck out of Hungary's best player Puskas and their was no subs in them days.
So you never know shudders at thought.

RuggieBear

MooseJam wrote: »

what are the new rules that are being brought in over there that everyone is talking about

quotas for non white players

ThomasH

Well two intercepts aint the miracle of expansive play like many people are starting to think all of sudden.

3rd Try was a individual effort of Habana not exactly a magical backline move

4th try came from turn over ball with a 3/4 man overlap and consisted off again individual effort with a lovely offload.

Steyn has done nothing in this RWC and last night showed once again all he did was make a break leading to a disallowed try and his drop goal attempts and kicking game have been laughable. I dont think he'll handle the pressure come next week.

Its going to be the same old SA side in with the forwards and quick ball to Habana to cut the defense once they'v been sucked in

Neither is two intercepts regarded as a 10 man game play.
3rd try was a backline move to Habana where he created and scored, again nothing to do with the forwards!
4th try - And?? Again it proves that SA don't play like Eng as it was a well finished backline running including forwards with some good passing. Show me one match where Eng did that and scored a try.

Not really sure what your point about Steyn is or are you just as usual jealous of the young SA talent.

Not sure what SA team you have been watching but in their last two matches they managed to score 9 tries against Eng's 1 so what's your point?

MooseJam

RuggieBear wrote: »

quotas for non white players

Whose idea was that ?, obviously a bad idea , how bad will depend on the quota

ThomasH

Whose idea was that ?, obviously a bad idea , how bad will depend on the quota

The administration behind SA rugby backed by the government who mostly are non-white people.

toomevara

ThomasH wrote: »

The administration behind SA rugby backed by the government who mostly are non-white people.

Though I'm not in favour of discrimination in any way, shape or form, even of the positive variety, there may be method in Mbeki's madness. If Rugby becomes played by, and accesable to, the majority black population of south africa, God help us all because there are huge reservoirs of untapped talent out there just waiting for the chance to shine...

I'm afraid the Afrikaaners may have to loosen the reins of control just a little bit in the short term for what may be a huge long term gain for SA rugby. Don't forget that Brian Habbana, the pin up boy of SA rugby wouldn't have gotten near that team twenty years ago, not because of lack of merit, but because of the colour of his skin....

mikeruurds

toomevara wrote: »

Though I'm not in favour of discrimination in any way, shape or form, even of the positive variety, there may be method in Mbeki's madness. If Rugby becomes played by, and accesable to, the majority black population of south africa, God help us all because there are huge reservoirs of untapped talent out there just waiting for the chance to shine...

I'm afraid the Afrikaaners may have to loosen the reins of control just a little bit in the short term for what may be a huge long term gain for SA rugby. Don't forget that Brian Habbana, the pin up boy of SA rugby wouldn't have gotten near that team twenty years ago, not because of lack of merit, but because of the colour of his skin....

Past mistakes are no reason to make future errors. There just isn't enough international level talent to fill 11 positions with players of colour in a 22 player squad at the moment. The result will be massive losses and a loss in revenue by way of TV rights and match tickets. Transformation needs to occur in a manner that doesn't sabotage SA rugby.

No one in SA will support a team that loses. No matter what skin colour the players have. The government might be pushing this through, but Joe public doesn't like an enforced quota system. Many people have threatened to boycott all Bok merchandise and attendance at games.

SA needs transformation, but it won't benefit SA rugby if it is forced to happen in this way.

ThomasH

Though I'm not in favour of discrimination in any way, shape or form, even of the positive variety, there may be method in Mbeki's madness. If Rugby becomes played by, and accesable to, the majority black population of south africa, God help us all because there are huge reservoirs of untapped talent out there just waiting for the chance to shine...

I'm afraid the Afrikaaners may have to loosen the reins of control just a little bit in the short term for what may be a huge long term gain for SA rugby. Don't forget that Brian Habbana, the pin up boy of SA rugby wouldn't have gotten near that team twenty years ago, not because of lack of merit, but because of the colour of his skin....

I agree that SA needs to tap into the talent of all young rugby players regardless of their colour. The issue rather is that the administration wants to take young non-white players and turn them over night into rugby stars. Most of these young guys would only have started playing rugby in their late teens (17,18, etc.) Look at guys like Eddie Andrews, Solly Tyibilika, etc. they were never really that good but were chosen because of quotas.

The Afrikaners have no problem with good coloured players being selected. SA supporters feel it should be fair and square when it comes to selections.

Brian Habana and JP Pietersen come a long way as they both played under Jake White when they've won the u/21 WC. Jake introduced them slowly to the springboks team and look at them now, both very talented players.

Peyton Manning

Habana to score 3 tries, SA to win

And yes, I have put my money where my mouth is.

LordSutch

England to win (just) ~ one try each for 'Robinson' & 'Sackey' + Jonny to kick a couple of drop goals too . . .

Very tight match > not pretty!

but its all hypothetical anyway