Roma children taken into care today

Terry

The world bank Study:

"It is not uncommon to find reports of unemployment rates of up to 100 percent in Roma settlements—due to their low skill levels and discrimination in the labor market, Roma are frequently among the first to be laid off."

Morlar wrote:

Ok so first of all they had high employment rates - ROMA are at 90% employed in romania.

That was blown out of the water with statistical evidence which ilustrated that the exact opposite was closer to reality - ie they had 95% unemployment across the boards.

Then that was an anomaly in the first study - ie its only women and thats cos of their 'cultcha innit'.

Then that idea was disproven with the UN and worldbank/minority rights.org studies that revealed that its not women specific its across the boards.

Now you are saying that without statistical evidence to prove this point

ie that approaching 100% unemployment cant be because they dont want to work and would rather milk the system

because there is no statistical evidence to prove this point then in your opinion then this is simply not the case ?

I think the majority of people seeing those numbers (which were a shock to me too) would make their own conclusions without requiring statistical evidence to confirm it. Its pretty obvious that most if not all of them do not actually want to work and are quite happy to milk the system.

Explain to me how you can equate people being laid off with those unwilling to work.

tbh

Degsy wrote:

"They" being the people who come here to scrounge and scam,therefore the culture of those who do so is at odds with our society.Not ALL Roma or ALL anybody.Do these people not realise that they're ambassadors for thier own race?

you're being ridiculous degsy, and it undermines your argument. Are you an ambassador for your race? If you are, I must be too. And FlutterinBantam. So how are you going to judge a race based on those three very different (thank god ) characters? You're an ambassador for yourself, nothing more.

Terry

Morlar wrote:

If you succeeded there (breaking the cycle of roma dependence) I think you would be the first person in the history of europe to manage that.

You're treading a very thin line here.

Morlar

Terry wrote:

You're treading a very thin line here.

What ?

Can you name one single country in europe (ever) where people or politicians have managed to create an integrated & working population of roma ? Even if there were one example - its very far from the norm in my view.

Louth4sam

Terry wrote:

Yes, I agree you may have grounds for your generalisation, but you stated it as fact without any proof to back it up.

It's all in the wording.

Fair enough terry, if my opinions came across as fact they shouldn't have. It is impossible to make a generalisation on any nation, culture or religion and then back it up with proof. Therefore the generalisations were based on the opinions of others and my own.

Morlar

tbh wrote:

So why don't you do it? Serious question. If it's so easy, why isn't everyone doing it?

I think the reason why more people dont do this is because they come from a culture where working for a living (no matter how horrible the job) is seen as they way to acquire things like houses cars money etc.

tbh

Morlar wrote:

I think the reason why more people dont do this is because they come from a culture where working for a living (no matter how horrible the job) is seen as they way to acquire things like houses cars money etc.

And who taught you that? Your parents.And who taught them? Their parents. And that's how a culture is born. But lets go back a bit further - late 1840's. What do you think the culture was then? "If you can't work, you'll just have to starve"? Of course not. The people did whatever they had to do to get fed. So maybe that's an example of how a culture has gone from being dependent now to being independent. I'm not saying they are there now, I'm saying they never will be unless we tackle the problem. And that isn't going to be achieved by simply sending them away.

Terry

Morlar wrote:

What ?

Can you name one single country in europe (ever) where people or politicians have managed to create an integrated & working population of roma ? Even if there were one example - its very far from the norm in my view.

Your comment about "breaking the cycle of Roma dependence" is very close to a bannable offence.

I'm not giving any more warnings.
Any further generalisations in this thread will result in a ban.
This includes positive ones.
You may think you are being funny challenging me by making positive generalisations, but you will also be banned for that.

Morlar

tbh wrote:

And who taught you that?

I think your heading off the reservation there.

I dont see us agreeing anytime soon - I think figures of 90+% unemployment in the roma community across europe indicate that they are not likely to have travelled here to Ireland for work.

We can agree to disagree on that one - also on your abillity to resolve the fundamental problems of a total lack of integration of roma into the rest of europes or into the rest of the european workforce for that matter.

tbh

Morlar wrote:

I dont see us agreeing anytime soon - I think figures of 90+% unemployment in the roma community across europe indicate that they are not likely to have travelled here to Ireland for work.

.

Fundamentally we disagree because you see those figures as indicitive of some sort of genetic laziness, whereas I see it as a result of long-term disadvantage, much like our own traveller population.

Morlar

tbh wrote:

Fundamentally we disagree because you see those figures as indicitive of some sort of genetic laziness, whereas I see it as a result of long-term disadvantage, much like our own traveller population.

Not to be pedantic but you accusing me of seeing roma as genetically lazy is the first mention or hint of the word genetics anywhere in this thread.

tbh

Morlar wrote:

Not to be pedantic but you accusing me of seeing roma as genteically lazy is the first mention or hint of the word genetics anywhere in this thread.

but it has to be, doesn't it? That seems to be the crux of your argument, you're saying that they just don't want to work. I'm saying if they had the same background as us - education, stable homelife, healthcare etc, they would of course want to work - but you don't seem to agree. So the only thing I can think of is that you think they are just born that way - that would have to be genetic, no?

Morlar

tbh wrote:

but it has to be, doesn't it? . . . . . - that would have to be genetic, no?

No - you have introduced genetics into this thread by way of accusing me of subscribing to a belief thats based on a genetic principle. Now your asking me to prove otherwise. I have never mentioned genetic factors - you just implied that I did.

tbh

I'm not playing a game with you, I genuinely don't understand what you think is the difference between someone born into the Roma culture and someone born into a traditional Irish family.

Why do you say that Roma's don't want to work? Specifically, why do you assume that 90% unemployment means that they don't want to work, rather than the fact that they can't get jobs?

Because if it's simply cultural, then you have to accept the fact that if you were born into the Roma culture, you would behave as you are accusing them of behaving. On the other side, you have to accept that if one of them was born into your family, they would be posting on boards slagging you off. So given that your fortune is such an accident of fate, why do you deny your responsibility to help others? Help means more than charity, it means putting yourself out to give others a chance. I'm happy to welcome more Roma people over here, and to invest our resources into educating them and integrating them into our society. Are you?

Louth4sam

tbh wrote:

I'm saying if they had the same background as us - education, stable homelife, healthcare etc, they would of course want to work

Thats a very fair point, but what would you suggest we as a nation try and do? Yes we can offer then education and healthcare, But where would do you believe the money for this will come from. Also where would you draw the line on who should/shouldnt be aloud into the country. Do you believe we can offer them a stable homelife? As the children will still be brought up by those from a different culture where begging and in a lot of cases stealing* is seen as the norm. Its the same as the disadvantaged areas in Ireland. I live beside a big council estate and the kids that our brought up in a house of drinking or criminality more often then not end up living a life that mimics the manor in which they themselves where brought up.

*My opinion: Based on news reports and speaking to garda

flogen

Morlar wrote:

Ok so first of all they had high employment rates - ROMA are at 90% employed in romania.

Who said that?

That was blown out of the water with statistical evidence which ilustrated that the exact opposite was closer to reality - ie they had 95% unemployment across the boards.

Then that was an anomaly in the first study - ie its only women and thats cos of their 'cultcha innit'.

As I said - I made that point as a potential explanation for a statistical anomaly that, it turns out, didn't exist.

Then that idea was disproven with the UN and worldbank/minority rights.org studies that revealed that its not women specific its across the boards.

Now you are saying that without statistical evidence to prove this point

ie that approaching 100% unemployment cant be because they dont want to work and would rather milk the system

because there is no statistical evidence to prove this point then in your opinion then this is simply not the case ?

The reports you linked to say that as a result of low education and discrimination there is high unemployment - they don't say that these factors may be the reason for high unemployment, they say they are the reason.

Something tells me these reports are very carefully worded and such a distinction is vital - these aren't theories they've guessed up.

And the same report, as I and Terry pointed out, reference Roma being the first to get laid off due to their lack of education etc. - so how on earth can you square that circle in relation to their laziness?

I think the majority of people seeing those numbers (which were a shock to me too) would make their own conclusions without requiring statistical evidence to confirm it. Its pretty obvious that most if not all of them do not actually want to work and are quite happy to milk the system.

The report makes its conclusions based on evidence (and says that they are at a disadvantage and so have trouble finding work).

You didn't make a conclusion, you made an assumption and in doing so cherry-picked some of the report and ignored the rest.

Let's just speak theoretically here, to further tbh's point about their disadvantage.

let's just say one of the Roma on the roundabout at the moment decides they want to work (let's just say they're 24, male).

They manage to get a permit from the Government. Now what?
They don't have an education, so anything that involves any reading, writing, maths etc. is out of the question (that's pretty much any job, by the way). They don't have facilities at "home" so anything that involves being well dressed and clean is also out of the question. They probably don't speak a lot of English, so that's another road-block. And then you have people who see them and decide that they're good-for-nothing-Roma and won't employ them under any circumstances.

This is pretty much the situation that these types of communities are in in any country, including the ones where they don't need permits to work.

Duggy747

flogen wrote:

They manage to get a permit from the Government. Now what?
They don't have an education, so anything that involves any reading, writing, maths etc. is out of the question (that's pretty much any job, by the way). They don't have facilities at "home" so anything that involves being well dressed and clean is also out of the question. They probably don't speak a lot of English, so that's another road-block. And then you have people who see them and decide that they're good-for-nothing-Roma and won't employ them under any circumstances.

I agree with you on that, it's next to impossible (or closer) for them to gain any sort of foot in the door in terms of work of the average nature.

Now, if we were to say they could get a work permit and decide not to be self-employed there many places beyond the obvious where they can work;

Lidl hire anybody and I mean ANYBODY, any ethnic origin; Asian, Polish, Lativian, etc, theres no special requirement other than the interest to work hard. A lot of times they have next to no english, litteraly. I worked in Lidl for nearly two years and about 1/3 of the people working there could only speak 2 words of english.

The people of the Roma community that can speak english can apply for a Safe Pass and get a job in the building / plastering industry, though for them that's easier said than done but not impossible.

There are many other types of jobs beyond the obvious that they possibly get if they were to have a work permit.

Louth4sam

flogen wrote:

They manage to get a permit from the Government. Now what?
They don't have an education, so anything that involves any reading, writing, maths etc. is out of the question (that's pretty much any job, by the way). They don't have facilities at "home" so anything that involves being well dressed and clean is also out of the question. They probably don't speak a lot of English, so that's another road-block. And then you have people who see them and decide that they're good-for-nothing-Roma and won't employ them under any circumstances.

This is pretty much the situation that these types of communities are in in any country, including the ones where they don't need permits to work.

Great point, flogan but that brings us back to the point of why they came here in the first place. From reading the piece in the indo that was posted earlier it would seem they received some bad advice on what benifits they would receive when they reached Ireland. I would assume that the advice they received was based on what they could have got before the start of the year when romania became part of the EU. They are refusing flights home so they are obviously holding out as they think they will get these benifits.
I would agree with your points completely about why they might find it difficult to find employment in a foreign country but why therefore is unemployment of romas so high in Romania? If it is a case that they are not getting jobs then surly this would be a case for discrimination under EU law.

flogen

Duggy747 wrote:

I agree with you on that, it's next to impossible (or closer) for them to gain any sort of foot in the door in terms of work of the average nature.

Now, if we were to say they could get a work permit and decide not to be self-employed there many places beyond the obvious where they can work;

Lidl hire anybody and I mean ANYBODY, any ethnic origin; Asian, Polish, Lativian, etc, theres no special requirement other than the interest to work hard. A lot of times they have next to no english, litteraly. I worked in Lidl for nearly two years and about 1/3 of the people working there could only speak 2 words of english.

Well we're talking often about people who cannot even write their own name - they're illiterate in every language including their native tongue.

I know there are plenty of people working in Ireland with very, very bad English (although you're '2 words' is obviously an exaggeration) but we're talking about people with absolutely no formal education at all.

That would even impact on their attitudes towards things like food hygiene (one example that springs to mind that would discount them from many places too)

The people of the Roma community that can speak english can apply for a Safe Pass and get a job in the building / plastering industry, though for them that's easier said than done but not impossible.

There are many other types of jobs beyond the obvious that they possibly get if they were to have a work permit.

Well, I've done the safe pass course myself and it requires money (€100 or so when I did it) and literacy, as you're given a questionnaire at the end to see if you've learned all the bits and pieces. You also need to have some grasp of English as the training videos and slides etc. are presented in English.

Once they get over that hurdle and take up a job as a dog's body on a site they will still need half decent English to get by (otherwise they won't know what they're being told to do) and that's ignoring the huge safety implications of having an illiterate person on a building site.

flogen

Louth4sam wrote:

Great point, flogan but that brings us back to the point of why they came here in the first place. From reading the piece in the indo that was posted earlier it would seem they received some bad advice on what benifits they would receive when they reached Ireland. I would assume that the advice they received was based on what they could have got before the start of the year when romania became part of the EU. They are refusing flights home so they are obviously holding out as they think they will get these benifits.

Maybe, or else the explanation they've already given is the case (as it's equally believable)... they may have come here expecting benefits, realised they weren't getting any and decided that despite this fact their situation is still better than what it was in Romania.

I would agree with your points completely about why they might find it difficult to find employment in a foreign country but why therefore is unemployment of romas so high in Romania? If it is a case that they are not getting jobs then surly this would be a case for discrimination under EU law.

Language isn't the only barrier - even if they spoke the language of the country they'd still be illiterate and uneducated and would lack access to the basic amenities that are required to make you "presentable" in most types of work.

Then there's discrimination and I'm sure there have been cases taken to the EU by Roma NGOs - the problem is proving that you have been discriminated against on ethnic grounds... that's difficult enough at the best of times, but when the prospective employer can point to someone's lack of education as a reason for their refusal (even if it isn't the real reason), things get even harder to prove.

Mena

flogen wrote:

... Also, after the Citizenship referendum, people who come here and have kids don't get automatic citizenship (although I think their child does, so the child can stay but they can't).

Nope, the children don't acquire automatic citizenship as was the case in the past. It was based on the children's citizenship that the parents were being permitted to remain in the country (as both myself and my wife were). Now at least one of the parents needs to be an Irish citizen before the child is granted citizenship.

flogen

Mena wrote:

Nope, the children don't acquire automatic citizenship as was the case in the past. It was based on the children's citizenship that the parents were being permitted to remain in the country (as both myself and my wife were). Now at least one of the parents needs to be an Irish citizen before the child is granted citizenship.

Ah, that's right - thanks for that.

Morlar

tbh wrote:

That seems to be the crux of your argument, you're saying that they just don't want to work. . . . . . . So the only thing I can think of is that you think they are just born that way - that would have to be genetic, no?

Not everything about behaviour and living conditions are a result of genetics - choice and responsibility come into it.

tbh wrote:

Why do you say that Roma's don't want to work? Specifically, why do you assume that 90% unemployment means that they don't want to work, rather than the fact that they can't get jobs?

I dont agree that its established fact at all - that they cant get jobs. The fact is they dont have jobs not that they have been looking for them and held back by factors outside of their control.

tbh wrote:

Because if it's simply cultural, then you have to accept the fact that . . . . . . On the other side, you have to accept that if

Your making some leaps of logic there and no I dont 'have to accept' or have to agree with you at all.

tbh wrote:

why do you deny your responsibility to help others? Help means more than charity, it means putting yourself out to give others a chance.

I think they are denying their own responsibility to take care of themselves by getting a job (in a country they have a legal right to work) and not depending on charity of others.

You could also argue the point that if our government were to house/clothe and feed and give pocket money to these roma gypsies that they would be denying their own primary responsibility which is to take care of its own citizens first and in doing so they would encourage more roma to make the decision to come here and seek benefits to which they are not entitled to.

bottlerocket

Degsy wrote:

But the government dont treat people like crap because thier name is Ward.They,and i assume you mean travellers are a pampered sub-section of irish society who are free to pretty much live outside the law if they choose.It was a masterstroke of political do-gooderism that allowed a bunch of ethnicly irish people to acheive ethnic minority status by not paying taxes,not obeying land bounderies and in may cases indulging in criminal behaviour.

Arrant nonsense. The government, well more the structures of society and social institutions do discriminate against travellers. Pampered? Travellers have shockingly low life expectancy, the suicide rate is through the roof. And of course, the guards don't arrest travellers who break the law. The question is, is Ireland prepared to allow for an alternative way of life to exist? And of course, those that break the law must be treated the same be they traveller or settled. But if people want to live a nomadic lifestyle without criminality, thats absolutely fine by me and it should be fine by you too, provided they obey the law of the land.

Degsy wrote:

ireland has become economicly prosperous and politically soft when it comes to dealing with hard-luck cases.We,as a country are setting precendents here and the eyes of a lot of oppurtunists are fixed on us.

Of course, we really should know better when dealing with those from an economic backwater who are persecuted on ethnic grounds. Never heard of that before have we?

Let them work, let them contribute and let them make a better life. You really think they want to be living on the edge of a motorway or surviving on subsistence payments from the state? Get real.

Delboy05

flogen wrote:

Maybe, or else the explanation they've already given is the case (as it's equally believable)... they may have come here expecting benefits, realised they weren't getting any and decided that despite this fact their situation is still better than what it was in Romania.

the Roma on the M50 actually came from Spain,France and Belgium where they've lived the past number of years. This is from the Gardai and the Romanian embassy. People are choosing to ignore this in debates on the subject because it blows the arse out of the Roma's sob story.
1 of them even managed to wire 1400euro through Western Union to his wife who is here with him in ireland - they use Western Union as a bank as the money can wait for up to 2 years before being collected. Not as poor perhaps as they're making out to be....this is a pure case of coming to Ireland, hands out looking for whatever they can get without doing a tap in return.

tallus

Just heard on RTE news that they have been served with immigration papers.

Degsy

tallus wrote:

Just heard on RTE news that they have been served with immigration papers.

Whassat mean?

edit..http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0721/roma.html

The nation has finally gotten sense

flogen

Delboy05 wrote:

the Roma on the M50 actually came from Spain,France and Belgium where they've lived the past number of years. This is from the Gardai and the Romanian embassy. People are choosing to ignore this in debates on the subject because it blows the arse out of the Roma's sob story.
1 of them even managed to wire 1400euro through Western Union to his wife who is here with him in ireland - they use Western Union as a bank as the money can wait for up to 2 years before being collected. Not as poor perhaps as they're making out to be....this is a pure case of coming to Ireland, hands out looking for whatever they can get without doing a tap in return.

I have heard that they came through a number of other countries alright, but I've not seen it from any official source.

Same applies for that wire of money, which is the first I've heard of it.

Dirty Knuckles

bottlerocket wrote:

Let them work, let them contribute and let them make a better life. You really think they want to be living on the edge of a motorway or surviving on subsistence payments from the state? Get real.

And you really think these bunch of gypo's came here looking for work?.

I'd love to see a reporter ask them about previous work experience!.

I'd bet a pound to a pinch of sh*t Grandpa Rosta wouldn't have a bleed'n clue what the word mean's.

flogen

Morlar wrote:

Not everything about behaviour and living conditions are a result of genetics - choice and responsibility come into it.

And the point being that due to their lack of education and general discrimination those in the Roma community may not have the chance to work, even if they really want to.

I dont agree that its established fact at all - that they cant get jobs. The fact is they dont have jobs not that they have been looking for them and held back by factors outside of their control.

That's what the reports you cite say, so why are you ignoring that finding while using the ones that suit your argument more?

I think they are denying their own responsibility to take care of themselves by getting a job (in a country they have a legal right to work) and not depending on charity of others.

I've already listed reasons why this is not as simple as it seems to you.

Imagine for a second that for whatever reason you have to (or decide to) leave Ireland immediately. You hop on a plane which leaves you in an Arabic country and you need to get work so you can feed and house yourself.
As you were raised in a work-orientated culture, getting work isn't a problem for you - you're happy to pay your way, but you don't speak a word of the local language nor can you read arabic (and it's not even that you can't understand the words or sentences, you can't even decipher the very characters each word is made up of).
You're (presumably) white and Christian so many in this country are suspicious of you or even hostile towards you.
So why haven't you gotten a job yet?

You could also argue the point that if our government were to house/clothe and feed and give pocket money to these roma gypsies that they would be denying their own primary responsibility which is to take care of its own citizens first and in doing so they would encourage more roma to make the decision to come here and seek benefits to which they are not entitled to.

There's nothing in Irish law that obliges the state to look after its own first as if there was it would prohibit the state from spending a penny on even the most needy of asylum seekers until all Irish citizens were housed, fed and safe etc. That would contravene Ireland's pledge to the UN Charter of Human Rights.