Roma children taken into care today

Morlar · 20-07-2007 2:27pm

tbh wrote:

Fundamentally we disagree because you see those figures as indicitive of some sort of genetic laziness, whereas I see it as a result of long-term disadvantage, much like our own traveller population.

Not to be pedantic but you accusing me of seeing roma as genetically lazy is the first mention or hint of the word genetics anywhere in this thread.

tbh · 20-07-2007 2:28pm

Morlar wrote:

Not to be pedantic but you accusing me of seeing roma as genteically lazy is the first mention or hint of the word genetics anywhere in this thread.

but it has to be, doesn't it? That seems to be the crux of your argument, you're saying that they just don't want to work. I'm saying if they had the same background as us - education, stable homelife, healthcare etc, they would of course want to work - but you don't seem to agree. So the only thing I can think of is that you think they are just born that way - that would have to be genetic, no?

Morlar · 20-07-2007 2:33pm

tbh wrote:

but it has to be, doesn't it? . . . . . - that would have to be genetic, no?

No - you have introduced genetics into this thread by way of accusing me of subscribing to a belief thats based on a genetic principle. Now your asking me to prove otherwise. I have never mentioned genetic factors - you just implied that I did.

tbh · 20-07-2007 2:35pm

I'm not playing a game with you, I genuinely don't understand what you think is the difference between someone born into the Roma culture and someone born into a traditional Irish family.

Why do you say that Roma's don't want to work? Specifically, why do you assume that 90% unemployment means that they don't want to work, rather than the fact that they can't get jobs?

Because if it's simply cultural, then you have to accept the fact that if you were born into the Roma culture, you would behave as you are accusing them of behaving. On the other side, you have to accept that if one of them was born into your family, they would be posting on boards slagging you off. So given that your fortune is such an accident of fate, why do you deny your responsibility to help others? Help means more than charity, it means putting yourself out to give others a chance. I'm happy to welcome more Roma people over here, and to invest our resources into educating them and integrating them into our society. Are you?

Louth4sam · 20-07-2007 2:41pm

tbh wrote:

I'm saying if they had the same background as us - education, stable homelife, healthcare etc, they would of course want to work

Thats a very fair point, but what would you suggest we as a nation try and do? Yes we can offer then education and healthcare, But where would do you believe the money for this will come from. Also where would you draw the line on who should/shouldnt be aloud into the country. Do you believe we can offer them a stable homelife? As the children will still be brought up by those from a different culture where begging and in a lot of cases stealing* is seen as the norm. Its the same as the disadvantaged areas in Ireland. I live beside a big council estate and the kids that our brought up in a house of drinking or criminality more often then not end up living a life that mimics the manor in which they themselves where brought up.

*My opinion: Based on news reports and speaking to garda

flogen · 20-07-2007 2:43pm

Morlar wrote:

Ok so first of all they had high employment rates - ROMA are at 90% employed in romania.

Who said that?

That was blown out of the water with statistical evidence which ilustrated that the exact opposite was closer to reality - ie they had 95% unemployment across the boards.

Then that was an anomaly in the first study - ie its only women and thats cos of their 'cultcha innit'.

As I said - I made that point as a potential explanation for a statistical anomaly that, it turns out, didn't exist.

Then that idea was disproven with the UN and worldbank/minority rights.org studies that revealed that its not women specific its across the boards.

Now you are saying that without statistical evidence to prove this point

ie that approaching 100% unemployment cant be because they dont want to work and would rather milk the system

because there is no statistical evidence to prove this point then in your opinion then this is simply not the case ?

The reports you linked to say that as a result of low education and discrimination there is high unemployment - they don't say that these factors may be the reason for high unemployment, they say they are the reason.

Something tells me these reports are very carefully worded and such a distinction is vital - these aren't theories they've guessed up.

And the same report, as I and Terry pointed out, reference Roma being the first to get laid off due to their lack of education etc. - so how on earth can you square that circle in relation to their laziness?

I think the majority of people seeing those numbers (which were a shock to me too) would make their own conclusions without requiring statistical evidence to confirm it. Its pretty obvious that most if not all of them do not actually want to work and are quite happy to milk the system.

The report makes its conclusions based on evidence (and says that they are at a disadvantage and so have trouble finding work).

You didn't make a conclusion, you made an assumption and in doing so cherry-picked some of the report and ignored the rest.

Let's just speak theoretically here, to further tbh's point about their disadvantage.

let's just say one of the Roma on the roundabout at the moment decides they want to work (let's just say they're 24, male).

They manage to get a permit from the Government. Now what?
They don't have an education, so anything that involves any reading, writing, maths etc. is out of the question (that's pretty much any job, by the way). They don't have facilities at "home" so anything that involves being well dressed and clean is also out of the question. They probably don't speak a lot of English, so that's another road-block. And then you have people who see them and decide that they're good-for-nothing-Roma and won't employ them under any circumstances.

This is pretty much the situation that these types of communities are in in any country, including the ones where they don't need permits to work.

Duggy747 · 20-07-2007 2:54pm

flogen wrote:

They manage to get a permit from the Government. Now what?
They don't have an education, so anything that involves any reading, writing, maths etc. is out of the question (that's pretty much any job, by the way). They don't have facilities at "home" so anything that involves being well dressed and clean is also out of the question. They probably don't speak a lot of English, so that's another road-block. And then you have people who see them and decide that they're good-for-nothing-Roma and won't employ them under any circumstances.

I agree with you on that, it's next to impossible (or closer) for them to gain any sort of foot in the door in terms of work of the average nature.

Now, if we were to say they could get a work permit and decide not to be self-employed there many places beyond the obvious where they can work;

Lidl hire anybody and I mean ANYBODY, any ethnic origin; Asian, Polish, Lativian, etc, theres no special requirement other than the interest to work hard. A lot of times they have next to no english, litteraly. I worked in Lidl for nearly two years and about 1/3 of the people working there could only speak 2 words of english.

The people of the Roma community that can speak english can apply for a Safe Pass and get a job in the building / plastering industry, though for them that's easier said than done but not impossible.

There are many other types of jobs beyond the obvious that they possibly get if they were to have a work permit.

Louth4sam · 20-07-2007 3:03pm

flogen wrote:

They manage to get a permit from the Government. Now what?
They don't have an education, so anything that involves any reading, writing, maths etc. is out of the question (that's pretty much any job, by the way). They don't have facilities at "home" so anything that involves being well dressed and clean is also out of the question. They probably don't speak a lot of English, so that's another road-block. And then you have people who see them and decide that they're good-for-nothing-Roma and won't employ them under any circumstances.

This is pretty much the situation that these types of communities are in in any country, including the ones where they don't need permits to work.

Great point, flogan but that brings us back to the point of why they came here in the first place. From reading the piece in the indo that was posted earlier it would seem they received some bad advice on what benifits they would receive when they reached Ireland. I would assume that the advice they received was based on what they could have got before the start of the year when romania became part of the EU. They are refusing flights home so they are obviously holding out as they think they will get these benifits.
I would agree with your points completely about why they might find it difficult to find employment in a foreign country but why therefore is unemployment of romas so high in Romania? If it is a case that they are not getting jobs then surly this would be a case for discrimination under EU law.

flogen · 20-07-2007 3:04pm

Duggy747 wrote:

I agree with you on that, it's next to impossible (or closer) for them to gain any sort of foot in the door in terms of work of the average nature.

Now, if we were to say they could get a work permit and decide not to be self-employed there many places beyond the obvious where they can work;

Lidl hire anybody and I mean ANYBODY, any ethnic origin; Asian, Polish, Lativian, etc, theres no special requirement other than the interest to work hard. A lot of times they have next to no english, litteraly. I worked in Lidl for nearly two years and about 1/3 of the people working there could only speak 2 words of english.

Well we're talking often about people who cannot even write their own name - they're illiterate in every language including their native tongue.

I know there are plenty of people working in Ireland with very, very bad English (although you're '2 words' is obviously an exaggeration) but we're talking about people with absolutely no formal education at all.

That would even impact on their attitudes towards things like food hygiene (one example that springs to mind that would discount them from many places too)

The people of the Roma community that can speak english can apply for a Safe Pass and get a job in the building / plastering industry, though for them that's easier said than done but not impossible.

There are many other types of jobs beyond the obvious that they possibly get if they were to have a work permit.

Well, I've done the safe pass course myself and it requires money (€100 or so when I did it) and literacy, as you're given a questionnaire at the end to see if you've learned all the bits and pieces. You also need to have some grasp of English as the training videos and slides etc. are presented in English.

Once they get over that hurdle and take up a job as a dog's body on a site they will still need half decent English to get by (otherwise they won't know what they're being told to do) and that's ignoring the huge safety implications of having an illiterate person on a building site.

flogen · 20-07-2007 3:08pm

Louth4sam wrote:

Great point, flogan but that brings us back to the point of why they came here in the first place. From reading the piece in the indo that was posted earlier it would seem they received some bad advice on what benifits they would receive when they reached Ireland. I would assume that the advice they received was based on what they could have got before the start of the year when romania became part of the EU. They are refusing flights home so they are obviously holding out as they think they will get these benifits.

Maybe, or else the explanation they've already given is the case (as it's equally believable)... they may have come here expecting benefits, realised they weren't getting any and decided that despite this fact their situation is still better than what it was in Romania.

I would agree with your points completely about why they might find it difficult to find employment in a foreign country but why therefore is unemployment of romas so high in Romania? If it is a case that they are not getting jobs then surly this would be a case for discrimination under EU law.

Language isn't the only barrier - even if they spoke the language of the country they'd still be illiterate and uneducated and would lack access to the basic amenities that are required to make you "presentable" in most types of work.

Then there's discrimination and I'm sure there have been cases taken to the EU by Roma NGOs - the problem is proving that you have been discriminated against on ethnic grounds... that's difficult enough at the best of times, but when the prospective employer can point to someone's lack of education as a reason for their refusal (even if it isn't the real reason), things get even harder to prove.

Mena · 20-07-2007 3:12pm

flogen wrote:

... Also, after the Citizenship referendum, people who come here and have kids don't get automatic citizenship (although I think their child does, so the child can stay but they can't).

Nope, the children don't acquire automatic citizenship as was the case in the past. It was based on the children's citizenship that the parents were being permitted to remain in the country (as both myself and my wife were). Now at least one of the parents needs to be an Irish citizen before the child is granted citizenship.

flogen · 20-07-2007 3:20pm

Mena wrote:

Nope, the children don't acquire automatic citizenship as was the case in the past. It was based on the children's citizenship that the parents were being permitted to remain in the country (as both myself and my wife were). Now at least one of the parents needs to be an Irish citizen before the child is granted citizenship.

Ah, that's right - thanks for that.

Morlar · 20-07-2007 4:51pm

tbh wrote:

That seems to be the crux of your argument, you're saying that they just don't want to work. . . . . . . So the only thing I can think of is that you think they are just born that way - that would have to be genetic, no?

Not everything about behaviour and living conditions are a result of genetics - choice and responsibility come into it.

tbh wrote:

Why do you say that Roma's don't want to work? Specifically, why do you assume that 90% unemployment means that they don't want to work, rather than the fact that they can't get jobs?

I dont agree that its established fact at all - that they cant get jobs. The fact is they dont have jobs not that they have been looking for them and held back by factors outside of their control.

tbh wrote:

Because if it's simply cultural, then you have to accept the fact that . . . . . . On the other side, you have to accept that if

Your making some leaps of logic there and no I dont 'have to accept' or have to agree with you at all.

tbh wrote:

why do you deny your responsibility to help others? Help means more than charity, it means putting yourself out to give others a chance.

I think they are denying their own responsibility to take care of themselves by getting a job (in a country they have a legal right to work) and not depending on charity of others.

You could also argue the point that if our government were to house/clothe and feed and give pocket money to these roma gypsies that they would be denying their own primary responsibility which is to take care of its own citizens first and in doing so they would encourage more roma to make the decision to come here and seek benefits to which they are not entitled to.

bottlerocket · 20-07-2007 8:16pm

Degsy wrote:

But the government dont treat people like crap because thier name is Ward.They,and i assume you mean travellers are a pampered sub-section of irish society who are free to pretty much live outside the law if they choose.It was a masterstroke of political do-gooderism that allowed a bunch of ethnicly irish people to acheive ethnic minority status by not paying taxes,not obeying land bounderies and in may cases indulging in criminal behaviour.

Arrant nonsense. The government, well more the structures of society and social institutions do discriminate against travellers. Pampered? Travellers have shockingly low life expectancy, the suicide rate is through the roof. And of course, the guards don't arrest travellers who break the law. The question is, is Ireland prepared to allow for an alternative way of life to exist? And of course, those that break the law must be treated the same be they traveller or settled. But if people want to live a nomadic lifestyle without criminality, thats absolutely fine by me and it should be fine by you too, provided they obey the law of the land.

Degsy wrote:

ireland has become economicly prosperous and politically soft when it comes to dealing with hard-luck cases.We,as a country are setting precendents here and the eyes of a lot of oppurtunists are fixed on us.

Of course, we really should know better when dealing with those from an economic backwater who are persecuted on ethnic grounds. Never heard of that before have we?

Let them work, let them contribute and let them make a better life. You really think they want to be living on the edge of a motorway or surviving on subsistence payments from the state? Get real.

Delboy05 · 20-07-2007 9:02pm

flogen wrote:

Maybe, or else the explanation they've already given is the case (as it's equally believable)... they may have come here expecting benefits, realised they weren't getting any and decided that despite this fact their situation is still better than what it was in Romania.

the Roma on the M50 actually came from Spain,France and Belgium where they've lived the past number of years. This is from the Gardai and the Romanian embassy. People are choosing to ignore this in debates on the subject because it blows the arse out of the Roma's sob story.
1 of them even managed to wire 1400euro through Western Union to his wife who is here with him in ireland - they use Western Union as a bank as the money can wait for up to 2 years before being collected. Not as poor perhaps as they're making out to be....this is a pure case of coming to Ireland, hands out looking for whatever they can get without doing a tap in return.

tallus · 21-07-2007 10:53am

Just heard on RTE news that they have been served with immigration papers.

Degsy · 21-07-2007 10:55am

tallus wrote:

Just heard on RTE news that they have been served with immigration papers.

Whassat mean?

edit..http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0721/roma.html

The nation has finally gotten sense

flogen · 21-07-2007 11:51am

Delboy05 wrote:

the Roma on the M50 actually came from Spain,France and Belgium where they've lived the past number of years. This is from the Gardai and the Romanian embassy. People are choosing to ignore this in debates on the subject because it blows the arse out of the Roma's sob story.
1 of them even managed to wire 1400euro through Western Union to his wife who is here with him in ireland - they use Western Union as a bank as the money can wait for up to 2 years before being collected. Not as poor perhaps as they're making out to be....this is a pure case of coming to Ireland, hands out looking for whatever they can get without doing a tap in return.

I have heard that they came through a number of other countries alright, but I've not seen it from any official source.

Same applies for that wire of money, which is the first I've heard of it.

Dirty Knuckles · 21-07-2007 12:01pm

bottlerocket wrote:

Let them work, let them contribute and let them make a better life. You really think they want to be living on the edge of a motorway or surviving on subsistence payments from the state? Get real.

And you really think these bunch of gypo's came here looking for work?.

I'd love to see a reporter ask them about previous work experience!.

I'd bet a pound to a pinch of sh*t Grandpa Rosta wouldn't have a bleed'n clue what the word mean's.

flogen · 21-07-2007 12:03pm

Morlar wrote:

Not everything about behaviour and living conditions are a result of genetics - choice and responsibility come into it.

And the point being that due to their lack of education and general discrimination those in the Roma community may not have the chance to work, even if they really want to.

I dont agree that its established fact at all - that they cant get jobs. The fact is they dont have jobs not that they have been looking for them and held back by factors outside of their control.

That's what the reports you cite say, so why are you ignoring that finding while using the ones that suit your argument more?

I think they are denying their own responsibility to take care of themselves by getting a job (in a country they have a legal right to work) and not depending on charity of others.

I've already listed reasons why this is not as simple as it seems to you.

Imagine for a second that for whatever reason you have to (or decide to) leave Ireland immediately. You hop on a plane which leaves you in an Arabic country and you need to get work so you can feed and house yourself.
As you were raised in a work-orientated culture, getting work isn't a problem for you - you're happy to pay your way, but you don't speak a word of the local language nor can you read arabic (and it's not even that you can't understand the words or sentences, you can't even decipher the very characters each word is made up of).
You're (presumably) white and Christian so many in this country are suspicious of you or even hostile towards you.
So why haven't you gotten a job yet?

You could also argue the point that if our government were to house/clothe and feed and give pocket money to these roma gypsies that they would be denying their own primary responsibility which is to take care of its own citizens first and in doing so they would encourage more roma to make the decision to come here and seek benefits to which they are not entitled to.

There's nothing in Irish law that obliges the state to look after its own first as if there was it would prohibit the state from spending a penny on even the most needy of asylum seekers until all Irish citizens were housed, fed and safe etc. That would contravene Ireland's pledge to the UN Charter of Human Rights.

Degsy · 21-07-2007 12:13pm

Dirty Knuckles wrote:

And you really think these bunch of gypo's came here looking for work?.

I'd love to see a reporter ask them about previous work experience!.

I'd bet a pound to a pinch of sh*t Grandpa Rosta wouldn't have a bleed'n clue what the word mean's.

But you may be sure they researched the availability of certain other ways of making money.

Degsy · 21-07-2007 12:18pm

flogen wrote:

As you were raised in a work-orientated culture, getting work isn't a problem for you - you're happy to pay your way, but you don't speak a word of the local language nor can you read arabic (and it's not even that you can't understand the words or sentences, you can't even decipher the very characters each word is made up of).
You're (presumably) white and Christian so many in this country are suspicious of you or even hostile towards you.
So why haven't you gotten a job yet?

Excellenty example!Of course you'd get a job..you mean to say in "some arabic country" nobody had ver seen a white man?That nobody spoke or understood english?That there were none of your fellow countrymen who you could meet up with and ask about work???
These people didnt step off a plane like dummies..they had plenty of contacts here before they decided to come over,plenty of thier asosciates to say "come over,the irish are an easy touch and begging is legal!"..they probablt thought the streets were paved with gold when thye got here,the fact that they didnt get free housing may have soured the deal a bit for them though but it was worth a try.

Terry · 21-07-2007 12:22pm

Dirty Knuckles banned for the "Gypo" comment.

Terry · 21-07-2007 12:23pm

Degsy wrote:

they had plenty of contacts here before they decided to come over

Speculation.

Degsy · 21-07-2007 12:34pm

Terry wrote:

Speculation.

You reckon?So they had no family,friends or countrymen over here before they arrived?A bit of stretch of the imagination dont you think?

Terry · 21-07-2007 12:40pm

Degsy, I'm only going to go through this with you one last time.

Degsy wrote:

they had plenty of contacts here before they decided to come over

You have stated this as fact.
You have no proof of this whatsoever.

Whether they had contacts or not is irrelevant to this thread anyway.

I've been extremely patient regarding the sweeping statements you have been making.
I have already warned you once about it.
Do it again and I will regard it as trolling and you will get a lengthy ban.

flogen · 21-07-2007 12:53pm

Degsy wrote:

Excellenty example!Of course you'd get a job..you mean to say in "some arabic country" nobody had ver seen a white man?

No - but plenty are suspicious or hostile towards white people.

That nobody spoke or understood english?

So you'd go to somewhere like Saudi Arabia and expect everyone else to speak English? Of course some would speak English - maybe about as many as speak Romanian in Ireland - but knowing a few people who understand you doesn't help you get a job where the language being used is the one you don't know.

That there were none of your fellow countrymen who you could meet up with and ask about work???

And say they get you a job - how would you talk to your boss, your customers, your fellow workers? How would you read the signs on a building site, or the prices and information in the shop or the induction manual in the factory?

These people didnt step off a plane like dummies..they had plenty of contacts here before they decided to come over,

How do you know that? And even if they did, how does that help them get a job?

plenty of thier asosciates to say "come over,the irish are an easy touch and begging is legal!"..they probablt thought the streets were paved with gold when thye got here,the fact that they didnt get free housing may have soured the deal a bit for them though but it was worth a try.

So they knew that begging was legal but didn't know that they couldn't get welfare or asylum?
That's interesting - they're completely ignorant to a law that's been in place since January but knew about a legal change that only happened in March?

Your argument is based entirely on assumptions, which stem from what you want to believe and it's extremely contradictory.

You want them to be well versed in Irish law, but not enough to know about the exact laws you claim they came to exploit.
You want them to be lazy, dishonest thieves but refuse to recognise the fact that they couldn't get jobs even if they were the most honest people in the world.

It's quite clear that you're set in your ways about these things and if an assumption based on guesswork is good enough to make your mind up, no amount of facts in the world will change that.

PCros · 21-07-2007 1:27pm

Well I think getting those papers is the best thing thats happened. They'll be gone soon and at least they wont end up getting sick etc from living down there.

looksee · 21-07-2007 1:33pm

"Imagine for a second that for whatever reason you have to (or decide to) leave Ireland immediately. You hop on a plane which leaves you in an Arabic country and you need to get work so you can feed and house yourself.
As you were raised in a work-orientated culture, getting work isn't a problem for you - you're happy to pay your way, but you don't speak a word of the local language nor can you read arabic (and it's not even that you can't understand the words or sentences, you can't even decipher the very characters each word is made up of).
You're (presumably) white and Christian so many in this country are suspicious of you or even hostile towards you.
So why haven't you gotten a job yet?"

What sort of an argument is that? You are organised enough for all the family to have passports and enough money to buy plane tickets, yet you randomly get on a plane going to a country where you don't speak the language, your culture will be at odds with the local culture, no-one has any obligation or responsibility towards you and you don't even have a starting point for getting a job (contacts, locally needed skills etc). Are you suggesting that you dont need to have personal responsibility and common sense because someone else will take responsibility for your actions? Would you even go over to London, or even some other city in Ireland (even without a family in tow) with no funds, no job, no accommodation, and expect someone to rescue you?

MDTyKe · 21-07-2007 1:36pm

I haven't read the full story (just what I have on RTE.ie) nor the last 7 pages on this thread, but here are my views on it:

On one side, I think it's sad that they are "left" there on a motorway roundabout. In another, isn't it a danger to be stuck in a roundabout? And it makes Ireland look like a dump. It is now one of the richest countries in the EU.. and like the 'rich' US, I think we should prepare for an influx of migrants who think the grass is greener on the other side. Though maybe in our case it is...

Humanly, I think it is our responsible to look after our fellow members of humanity - in which case I'd like to see them be given a home or at least a hostel to stay, by the State. However, one has to be aware this has a lot of news coverage, here, and no doubt in Romania. If it's done to one, should it be done to all? If they are welcomed with completely open arms, and given a hostel/home, I'd expect a few more plane loads from Romania over.

In another note, how the hell did Romania get in to the EU? I know Ireland wasn't wealthy - far from it - when it joined, but I dont think we had families living in rubbish dumps?

I think its good though that the local churches and charities have been helping out - it's what they're for after all. It's definately a tough one...

Matt

Terry · 21-07-2007 1:41pm

In another note, how the hell did Romania get in to the EU? I know Ireland wasn't wealthy - far from it - when it joined, but I dont think we had families living in rubbish dumps?

I take it you didn't live through the 1980's (let alone the '70's etc).
Not to mention travellers, homeless and the ever expanding gap between rich and poor.

MDTyKe · 21-07-2007 1:49pm

Well, not really... was born in 80s.

flogen · 21-07-2007 1:49pm

looksee wrote:

What sort of an argument is that? You are organised enough for all the family to have passports and enough money to buy plane tickets, yet you randomly get on a plane going to a country where you don't speak the language, your culture will be at odds with the local culture, no-one has any obligation or responsibility towards you and you don't even have a starting point for getting a job (contacts, locally needed skills etc). Are you suggesting that you dont need to have personal responsibility and common sense because someone else will take responsibility for your actions? Would you even go over to London, or even some other city in Ireland (even without a family in tow) with no funds, no job, no accommodation, and expect someone to rescue you?

My point was to put a context on the situation an uneducated person is in - even if you spoke the local language your inability to read or write it would put you at a severe disadvantage, as would your ethnicity or nationality depending on where you're from or where you are.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that this family didn't decide to come to Ireland, and going by the report in The Irish Times Weekend supplement today they do speak some English. I'm also not abdicating their personal responsibility.

My point is that, even if they had work permits, they'd have a very hard time finding work in Ireland (or anywhere for that matter) because of the low levels of education in their community and the mistrust many have built up towards them.

thebaz · 21-07-2007 2:00pm

What is it about the roma that makes them so despised ?

I don't think i have heard a positive about the Roma !
They are hated here , in romania , the rest of Europe !

Do they have any good qualities that are to be welcomed ?

its all aggressive begging , scaming , persecuted ....

i think the way they use there children to beg is too be deplored , but i would be interested in hearing of some of there cultural positives or human skills they bring to the world !!

flogen · 21-07-2007 2:13pm

thebaz wrote:

What is it about the roma that makes them so despised ?

I don't think i have heard a positive about the Roma !
They are hated here , in romania , the rest of Europe !

Do they have any good qualities that are to be welcomed ?

its all aggressive begging , scaming , persecuted ....

i think the way they use there children to beg is too be deplored , but i would be interested in hearing of some of there cultural positives or human skills they bring to the world !!

I agree about using children to beg - it makes me sick. I never give money to beggars anyway, but if I did I certainly wouldn't give it to someone using a child as a prop.

As for good qualities that the culture brings, well can you really pigeon-hole an entire ethnic group like that? Is there something Irish people brought as a whole that can be considered positive? There are plenty of notable Irish artists, inventors etc., but their nationality was circumstantial and their achievements were personal.

looksee · 21-07-2007 3:08pm

The argument about the Roma is very similar to the Traveller argument. Do they actually want housing and training and education and jobs? Have we established that our own Travellers want all these things? Yes, some do and are willing to become part of mainstream society. But many do not, they prefer to pursue their culture and stay outside the system, while still availing of halting sites and other benefits of living parallel to a structured society.

Do they have a basic right to pursue their own culture while another culture is expected to support them?

The real problem is that many settled people are afraid that they are being laughed at. Most people would not have any problem with people in real need being helped by the State. But when Sean Citizen gets up every morning and goes to work and pays his taxes and his mortgage and his VHI and does his best to raise his family on what's left, then sees people claiming a different culture - a culture which keeps itself outside the system and recognises no obligations towards society - being given the benefit of state support that he is paying for, he is likely to be annoyed that he is being taken for a fool.

Add to this the fact that the Roma in question have managed to get themselves and their families across Europe before coming to rest in the most unlikely and conspicuous place possible, is it surprising that there is a lack of enthusiasm for getting involved in their situation. Is there any chance they will clean up their camp before they leave?

flogen · 21-07-2007 4:17pm

looksee wrote:

The argument about the Roma is very similar to the Traveller argument. Do they actually want housing and training and education and jobs? Have we established that our own Travellers want all these things? Yes, some do and are willing to become part of mainstream society. But many do not, they prefer to pursue their culture and stay outside the system, while still availing of halting sites and other benefits of living parallel to a structured society.

I'm not sure if it's intentional, but you seem to be suggesting here that it's impossible to practice a certain culture whilst being an upstanding member of wider Irish society.

Sure - if people (traveler, immigrant, asylum seeker, "settled" person or otherwise) wants to live off welfare when they're well able (but simply unwilling) to work for themselves then I have no time or sympathy for them - they can rot for all I care.

It's different when they're not given the basic tools required to actually give something back, though. Let me be clear that I don't think in this case that's the fault of Ireland - it's certainly not.

It might not be the fault of Romania either, I can't be sure. That said I don't think it's right of Ireland to contribute to the problem by passing the buck completely just because we're not the source of it, nor do I think it is our absolute and total responsibility to solve a problem we didn't cause.

In other words, this is an issue that has to be addressed across Europe, with countries putting systems in place to bring these types of communities up to a standard that will allow them to work legitimately for themselves.

Do they have a basic right to pursue their own culture while another culture is expected to support them?

No - but there's nothing, to the best of my knowledge, in Romani or Irish Traveler culture that requires such a separation.

Neither culture revolves around the demand that you do not get a job, you do not pay taxes or you do not get a formal education - it's just that some within these cultures have chosen to take this path. Others have been forced down it.

The real problem is that many settled people are afraid that they are being laughed at. Most people would not have any problem with people in real need being helped by the State. But when Sean Citizen gets up every morning and goes to work and pays his taxes and his mortgage and his VHI and does his best to raise his family on what's left, then sees people claiming a different culture - a culture which keeps itself outside the system and recognises no obligations towards society - being given the benefit of state support that he is paying for, he is likely to be annoyed that he is being taken for a fool.

As I said - there's no culture in Ireland that acts like this. There are people that act like this, but they can be found of any ethnicity, culture or colour and come from any and every county and country.

Add to this the fact that the Roma in question have managed to get themselves and their families across Europe before coming to rest in the most unlikely and conspicuous place possible, is it surprising that there is a lack of enthusiasm for getting involved in their situation.

Well it's not that hard to get across Europe nowadays and they didn't start off on the M50 - as I've said already they probably just saw a patch of unused, unclaimed land that they could camp on... places like that are hard to come by in Ireland, let alone Dublin.

Is there any chance they will clean up their camp before they leave?

You'd have to ask them that.

MooseJam · 21-07-2007 4:48pm

flogen wrote:

As I said - there's no culture in Ireland that acts like this. There are people that act like this, but they can be found of any ethnicity, culture or colour and come from any and every county and country.

Sure theres no culture that acts like this, just a very large number of people
from a certain culture act like this, totally different thing

flogen wrote:

as I've said already they probably just saw a patch of unused, unclaimed land that they could camp on... places like that are hard to come by in Ireland, let alone Dublin.

There is a huge amount of open ground in Dublin, fields and fields and more fields, there isn't any reason to be camped on a roundabout

arybvtcw0eolkf · 21-07-2007 5:24pm

Forgetting the rights and wrongs of arriving in Ireland ill-equipt to provide for yourself and relying on the good will of other's to lookafter you.

Forgetting all that for a moment.

But, what will be the cost of cleaning this patch of land and putting it back into the condition it was eight weeks ago?.

I take it the vast majority of people contributing to this thread haven't seen the environmental damage caused by these Roma people?.

I also wonder how this would be dealth with if these Roma set up camp in Dartmouth Sq, Dalkey, Foxrock etc.. instead of Ballymun.

And BTW, its not just the roundabout in Ballymun, its also a large patch of land on the slip road southbound at the junction, its land beside Sillogue golf course, and a large derelict house on the Swords road.

Their begging extends from the Ballymun M50 junction to the Ballymun shopping centre, all the junctions on the Ballymun road and in as far as the city centre.

Dudess · 21-07-2007 6:05pm

Here is the Wikipedia entry on Roma. For those who are adamant that they all come from Romania, have a read of it. True, the majority do come from Romania but many, many more come from countries all over the world. The word "Romania" may contain the word "Roma" but they are not just Romanian. Maybe that's where the confusion lies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

To those who believe that they can't be experiencing persecution: gypsies have experienced persecution in Europe for centuries. They are also an ethnic minority - they are not white. The majority of Roma come from Eastern Europe but they are not slavic. So to suggest that they wouldn't be experiencing persecution because they would "blend in" "over there" is bollocks. 1. They are nomadic, 2. They look different.
Travellers here are white and yet, would you argue that they don't experience discrimination? (that isn't an invitation to start a rant about all the trouble caused by travellers. Whether it's true or not, travellers do face discrimination.)

My view on the M50 case is quite a conservative one, but either way, the above facts are being shoved aside by some.

flogen · 21-07-2007 6:07pm

MooseJam wrote:

Sure theres no culture that acts like this, just a very large number of people from a certain culture act like this, totally different thing

Again with the generalisations - how about backing it up rather than just repeating such vague assumptions? Or is that too much to ask from someone labeling a large portion of a culture as welfare scroungers (despite the fact that most of that culture can't even claim welfare in Ireland)?

There is a huge amount of open ground in Dublin, fields and fields and more fields, there isn't any reason to be camped on a roundabout

Land that no-one owns? No.

They were originally camped near the Swords Road but were moved on - that was probably one of the open patches of land you're referring to.

Mairt wrote:

Forgetting the rights and wrongs of arriving in Ireland ill-equipt to provide for yourself and relying on the good will of other's to lookafter you.

Forgetting all that for a moment.

But, what will be the cost of cleaning this patch of land and putting it back into the condition it was eight weeks ago?.

I take it the vast majority of people contributing to this thread haven't seen the environmental damage caused by these Roma people?.

I also wonder how this would be dealth with if these Roma set up camp in Dartmouth Sq, Dalkey, Foxrock etc.. instead of Ballymun.

And BTW, its not just the roundabout in Ballymun, its also a large patch of land on the slip road southbound at the junction, its land beside Sillogue golf course, and a large derelict house on the Swords road.

While I'm sure it's far worse now than it was before, something tells me the M50 Roundabout was never much of an Oasis and was probably more of a dump for many.

And given that Dartmouth Square was a public park (before the owner decided to turn it into a car park), I'd imagine people would be demanding they were moved on if they camped there. Just like they would if they parked at Albert College Park down the road.

Their begging extends from the Ballymun M50 junction to the Ballymun shopping centre, all the junctions on the Ballymun road and in as far as the city centre.

Yeah, and I've seen them at the nearby Aldi, Omni and on my own road nearby.
Your point?

MooseJam · 21-07-2007 6:48pm

flogen wrote:

Again with the generalisations - how about backing it up rather than just repeating such vague assumptions? Or is that too much to ask from someone labeling a large portion of a culture as welfare scroungers (despite the fact that most of that culture can't even claim welfare in Ireland)?

Thats a bit unfair, I wasn't talking about the Roma, as for backing any of these things it's a bit hard unless you start taking polls, some things are just known without the need for backup, for example how about the sweeping generalisation that most people in Somalia are black, I'm sure you would agree with that statement but lets see anyone back it up

flogen · 21-07-2007 6:59pm

MooseJam wrote:

Thats a bit unfair, I wasn't talking about the Roma, as for backing any of these things it's a bit hard unless you start taking polls, some things are just known without the need for backup, for example how about the sweeping generalisation that most people in Somalia are black, I'm sure you would agree with that statement but lets see anyone back it up

When did I say you were talking about Roma?

You made a generalisation, whoever you were referencing it at, when you said "a very large number of people from a certain culture". How do you know it's a very large number? You're just assuming it is.

Terry · 21-07-2007 7:03pm

This has gotten out of hand.
Enough.

Roma children taken into care today

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