Roma children taken into care today

Duggy747

flogen wrote:

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't - it doesn't change the fact that they're here.

Agreed, which is why the whole thing needs to carefully handled. Though I really can't see much of a difference of an outcome regardless.

flogen wrote:

Can you back that up? If they "usually" get these decent houses, how come this huge family didn't?

You answered that with the word "huge". There many big towns (on the very odd time small) to where they are situated (Longford, Blanchestown, until recently Roscommon, etc)

flogen wrote:

I don't really understand your point here. It's not so hard to believe that this is the best they could do, as finding a patch of land to set up camp is pretty much what comes naturally to a group of travelers like these.

It's not as if the east of Ireland is rare on the secluded part of land. Choosing an area by a roundabout is, in my opinion, very conspicious.

flogen wrote:

I was under the impression that they were often left out of the educational system all together. How they would be put into "metal handicap schools" boggles my mind.

That is, unfortunately for most of the children, the truth. The ones that are put into school are, at best, put into segregated schools and there has been the odd case of Roma children with no disabilities put into mental handicap schools.

Agamemnon

flogen wrote:

Well you're assuming that they were well versed in Irish law, firstly.

No, I'm assuming that anyone who decides to move to another country to make a living has sense enough to check if that is even possible. If they were so shocked to learn that they can't get work permits when they got here, why don't they leave? Why don't they demand that the government fly them home?

So assuming that they knew they couldn't work and couldn't claim welfare, do you think they came here just to make a living from begging?

Many of them, yes.

lightening wrote:

If I was a mod I would lock this thread with Flogen getting the last word in, he is one of the only people speaking sense, one of the only people who seems to know something about what he is talking about, the rest of the kneejerk "Ireland for the Irish" Bull is tiring and repetitive.

"Ireland for the Irish" my eye. I believe that Ireland should be for anyone who wants to work for a living here. I believe Ireland should not be for freeloaders and scammers though.

flogen

skywalker wrote:

Presumably its not exactly legal to just set up camp in a roundabout though? Its a danger to themselves and others at the very least. They can be moved on at least surely.

That's an interesting point and from what I can see it's the only thing that they might be doing so far that's illegal.

That said, land laws in Ireland are very odd. I might be mistaken, but I think there's a law that allows squatting on any open piece of land - that is any land that's not completely fenced off... as a result of this there have been cases where some have secretly knocked down fencing on a farm etc. and then squatted, claiming the law applied and asking to be bought off.

I'm not too familiar with this roundabout, as it's the kind of place you wouldn't really be studying as you drove by, but perhaps that's why they haven't been moved yet.

flogen

Duggy747 wrote:

You answered that with the word "huge". There many big towns (on the very odd time small) to where they are situated (Longford, Blanchestown, until recently Roscommon, etc)

That's hardly backing up your statement - and who's paying for these supposed houses anyway?

It's not as if the east of Ireland is rare on the secluded part of land. Choosing an area by a roundabout is, in my opinion, very conspicious.

Actually, it was closer to a stroke of genius IMO.

Most land in Ireland is owned by families, companies, farmers or is reserved for specific usage by the state (parks etc.). There is very little land in this country that has no designation and is not in the ownership of anyone in particular.

This roundabout is one such area of land. They're not going to have to deal with disgruntled owners trying to get them off their land, they're not going to have to deal with claims of them obstructing some function of the land and so there's far less motivation or reason for them to be moved.

That is, unfortunately for most of the children, the truth. The ones that are put into school are, at best, put into segregated schools and there has been the odd case of Roma children with no disabilities put into mental handicap schools.

In Ireland? Again, I'd like some proof of this.

agamemnon wrote:

No, I'm assuming that anyone who decides to move to another country to make a living has sense enough to check if that is even possible. If they were so shocked to learn that they can't get work permits when they got here, why don't they leave? Why don't they demand that the government fly them home?

Who says they were shocked to learn that they couldn't get permits?
Many Irish found themselves in the same situation before in America or Australia and they didn't leave for home.

As for their reasons for not leaving, they've already been stated - they figure that their life is better here in a roundabout in Dublin than it was in Romania.

Many of them, yes.

OK, so who's fault is it that they can do this? I find it hard to exclusively blame someone exploiting a legal loophole; they're just making the most of someone else's mistake for their own personal benefit.

sueme wrote:

Should I bring my Autistic child to Romainia or Bulgaria for treatment as we are all equal? Because there isn't enough money for her to be treated here. Fact.

There is enough money for her to be treated here, it's just that the Government isn't using it properly.
There is no trade off between looking after Irish people and looking after asylum seekers, or in this case the children of "tourists". Given that Ireland has everything it needs to set up a comprehensive, national network of ABA facilities do you really think that's it's the Romanian's and Bulgarian's fault that this hasn't been implemented? Do you think that, in an ideal world where there was no need for asylum, Ireland would have a better healthcare of education system?

lightening

Slow Motion wrote:

Did you actually read the whole thread ? This is not about Ireland for the Irish, so less of the sweeping generalisations, it is about a specific group of people and a specific situation, maybe you should take your blinkers off and read it again (assuming you did the first time) !

Yep... just did, maintain my position, 100% I'm right.

Agamemnon

flogen wrote:

Who says they were shocked to learn that they couldn't get permits?
Many Irish found themselves in the same situation before in America or Australia and they didn't leave for home.

They didn't all start squatting on roundabouts and sending their kids to beg aggressively on the streets. Most of them found proper jobs.

TequilaMockingBird

Quote: Given that Ireland has everything it needs to set up a comprehensive, national network of ABA facilities do you really think that's it's the Romanian's and Bulgarian's fault that this hasn't been implemented? End Quote.


No.

Papad

lightening wrote:

Yep... just did, maintain my position, 100% I'm right.

So you made your initial comment without reading the whole thread.
'Nuff said (as they say).

flogen

agamemnon wrote:

They didn't all start squatting on roundabouts and sending their kids to beg aggressively on the streets. Most of them found proper jobs.

That's true, some of them became gangsters too.

My point isn't what job (or otherwise) they took up while in the country, my point is that a lack of a work permit or legal status has never been a roadblock for those looking to make money in a country they emigrated to.

Kinetic^

ambman wrote:

every single one of them should be put on the boat and shipped out of here ASAP.

Wouldn't it be better if we had a fight to the death between all of them........and the winner was the victim in a public stoning

Terry

Kenny 5 wrote:

Wouldn't it be better if we had a fight to the death between all of them........and the winner was the victim in a public stoning

Wouldn't it be better if we didn't have comments like that?

Deliverance

Terry wrote:

Wouldn't it be better if we didn't have comments like that?

I have to agree with you there. I have read this whole thread and certain points are very good and informative towards the general discussion. Unfortunately comments like you mentioned are inevitable, not necessarily idiots but it is a close call between the uninformed, the immature, and those with a very misplaced humour and the rest. I guess it all makes up for the situation in the first place.

A multicultural Ireland is still in development, I suspect that the Irish nature is a good one and eventually folks that come here no matter where they are from, will in time be allowed on 'merit' be allowed to integrate and make a life for their kids.

I have seen a lot of Irish folks who are far worse and dangerous than many imigrants, so to me it is about individuals rather than race, cultures are a wholly different story and harder to deal with in an obvious visual sense at least. Tis easy to single out folks on a cultural basis, the assholes that live around me have it easy and are harder to point out because they are Irish and they are priveliged by the way that they can be assholes without the risk of being singled out by predjudice.
They are at best territorial by nature and if given the chance will take over an area, and indeed from what I have seen they are experts in doing so (working the system) So maybe this thread should be more about an attitude which exists and is made possible by anyone 'foreign' or otherwise. A social issue perhaps, rather than a racial one?

Awful Scut

flogen wrote:

That's true, some of them became gangsters too.

My point isn't what job (or otherwise) they took up while in the country, my point is that a lack of a work permit or legal status has never been a roadblock for those looking to make money in a country they emigrated to.

Should the argument not be about how they make their money as opposed to nitpicking about work permits? i.e. honestly, through working (whether illegally or not) or dishonestly, through begging. They don't have a work permit, that's the way it is. I have yet to see any other citizens from new EU states arriving here and expecting handouts, which is quite clearly what the M50 squatters are doing.

Certain individuals on this board seem more concerned with pretending that this particular group of Roma are not doing anything wrong ("they're only exploiting a loophole someone was foolish enough to leave open, man") and tarring those who do complain as racists (step forward lightening) than actually conceding that this lot should be sent packing. And by sent packing, I mean moved on from this roundabout like any other bunch of miscreants who have chosen to squat in a place which places both them and the drivers of passing traffic at risk.

I sincerely hope that the HSE and other assorted bodies continue to avoid giving in to this emotional blackmail. Objecting to patently obvious scammers like this does not one a racist make.

Deliverance

Awful Scut wrote:

Should the argument not be about how they make their money as opposed to nitpicking about work permits? i.e. honestly, through working (whether illegally or not) or dishonestly, through begging. They don't have a work permit, that's the way it is. I have yet to see any other citizens from new EU states arriving here and expecting handouts, which is quite clearly what the M50 squatters are doing.

Certain individuals on this board seem more concerned with pretending that this particular group of Roma are not doing anything wrong ("they're only exploiting a loophole someone was foolish enough to leave open, man") and tarring those who do complain as racists (step forward lightening) than actually conceding that this lot should be sent packing. And by sent packing, I mean moved on from this roundabout like any other bunch of miscreants who have chosen to squat in a place which places both them and the drivers of passing traffic at risk.

I sincerely hope that the HSE and other assorted bodies continue to avoid giving in to this emotional blackmail. Objecting to patently obvious scammers like this does not one a racist make.

'A little knowlege is a dangerous thing'

flogen

Awful Scut wrote:

Should the argument not be about how they make their money as opposed to nitpicking about work permits? i.e. honestly, through working (whether illegally or not) or dishonestly, through begging. They don't have a work permit, that's the way it is.

I don't see how begging is any more dishonest than black market labour.
Theft or deception is dishonest, but begging does not necessarily involve either of these things.

I have yet to see any other citizens from new EU states arriving here and expecting handouts, which is quite clearly what the M50 squatters are doing.

That's your assumption and I might be wrong, but citizens of the EU25 can come here and claim the dole (or theoretically could, anyway).

Certain individuals on this board seem more concerned with pretending that this particular group of Roma are not doing anything wrong ("they're only exploiting a loophole someone was foolish enough to leave open, man") and tarring those who do complain as racists (step forward lightening) than actually conceding that this lot should be sent packing.

Are you talking about a moral wrong, a social wrong or a litigious wrong?
I wouldn't for a second assume that these people are decent, honest and trustworthy - I'm just not willing to assume that they're the opposite either.

The bottom line is that they are in a legal blackhole* and are happy to stay in it - until they break a law there's nothing the State can do about it.

I don't think there's anything automatically racist about calling for their deportation either, I'm just pointing out that the State can't do it at the moment, and it's not the Romani's fault.

I sincerely hope that the HSE and other assorted bodies continue to avoid giving in to this emotional blackmail. Objecting to patently obvious scammers like this does not one a racist make.

Patently obvious is a bit of a jump - perhaps you can explain the scam they're partaking in?

* According to Friday's Irish Times they could be deported under a law which says that Romanians and Bulgarians can only stay as "tourists" in Ireland for three months and can be deported if they are not employed, self-employed, studying of capable of being self-sufficient. I was under the impression that there was some kind of time limit on staying as tourists, but didn't know the exact details.

meglome

The attitude of all the Roma I've come across in this country and in Romania stinks. The vast majority do not even attempt to work they only beg and/or steal. All we need to do is not allow them to beg and suddenly Ireland wouldn't seem so attractive.

Louth4sam

flogen wrote:

There is no trade off between looking after Irish people and looking after asylum seekers

I'm afraid there is, the North east health board spends €2.5million each year housing refugees. At the same time the North east health board is downgrading hospitals in the area. I as an Irish citizen would like to see money spent on Irish citizens and any surplice could be spent on housing these so called refugees. There is no war in Romania or Nigeria but we continue to house refugees from these areas. Dont get me wrong im all for someone trying to better their lives and id like to see the government hand out conditional* work permits. The more hand outs we give the more "refugees" will flock to our shores to exploit paddy the irish man. I really hate these do-gooders that come on with their open door policies. You can bet your life these are well off people that don't have any of them living beside them.

*Condition that employment must got within the first month of arrival.

Terry

There may not be a war in either of the countries you mentioned, but some of the people arriving on our shores from these places are victims of racial abuse in their own countries.
Think Northern Ireland in the first half of the 20th century.

However, This particular group of Roma did not come directly from Romania.
The spent many years in other countries before coming here.

Degsy

Terry wrote:

There may not be a war in either of the countries you mentioned, but some of the people arriving on our shores from these places are victims of racial abuse in their own countries.

Racial abuse?In Nigeria??Do nigerians call other nigerians **** or something?What do Roma gypsies get called in Romania thats so terrible?I think you're grasping at straws here.If they flee "racial abuse" in the country they were born in what makes them think it'll be any better in acountry they werent born in??

Collie D

Absolutely no idea why I looked in here. Can we get a Roma forum please? Degsy can be mod.

mountainyman

meglome wrote:

The attitude of all the Roma I've come across in this country and in Romania stinks. The vast majority do not even attempt to work they only beg and/or steal. All we need to do is not allow them to beg and suddenly Ireland wouldn't seem so attractive.

I read a council of europe report about roma in romania which said that 90% of them work.

MM

Slow Motion

These people are not fleeing anything ! Except maybe the fact that they've been copped on to in their country of origin and see here as an opportunity to continue their begging and scamming on a more gullible population. Just look at what they've accomplished so far ! They have local travellers giving them food, tents etc. the media making a national issue out of it and a coach arriving every morning to take them away to get showers ! How many of the Irish homeless on the citys streets get this treatment ? If they had parked their ar$es somewhere less obvious this discussion would not be happening !

Morlar

mountainyman wrote:

I read a council of europe report about roma in romania which said that 90% of them work.

MM

Going from people I know from who are from romania (non gypsy roma) I find that very very hard to believe. Do you have a source or link for that ? When you say work - do you mean fulltime gainful employment ? Or are you counting begging as work.

Morlar

mountainyman wrote:

I read a council of europe report about roma in romania which said that 90% of them work.

MM

Looking at this Council Of Europe report which covers among other things Roma the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

ROMA EMPLOYMENT PROJECT - ADVISORY BOARD MEETING
MEETING REPORT

19 January 2004
Palais de l’Europe

http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/romatravellers/stabilitypact/activities/topics/employmentproject04stras_en.asp

There are 56000 roma (as of 2004) in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia with 16 000 unemployed for at least 4 years.

Factor in that that 56000 number includes large families of children, if you take it that 2 adult roma have on average 4 children each that would translate into very roughly 100% unemployment. Not 90% employment. This is despite government quotas on hiring minimum roma for government jobs etc.


Heres another quote from that COE report

"Women unemployment
Mainly due to early marriages, 95% of Roma women are unemployed (versus 36% of all FYROM women). "

layke

I was speaking to a Romanian guy I met at a party once and he was mortified when he came here. He was seriously shocked by the fact that all the gypies were coming over and he though Irish people would think all Romanians are like that.

In short, they are the travellers of their own country like we have in Ireland. Seeing as Travellers get lots of free stuff for living off your back and our great country still hasn't solved this problem who's to say they can deal with the Roma coming over in droves.

flogen

Louth4sam wrote:

I'm afraid there is, the North east health board spends €2.5million each year housing refugees. At the same time the North east health board is downgrading hospitals in the area.

Firstly, there is no such thing as the North East Health Board, so your figures are either referring to what the NEHB used to spend, or what the HSE spends. Or else they're made up.

Either way, €2.5 million is small change to this Government when you look at the size of our annual budget. In fact, our budget surpluses for the last 10 years have vastly exceeded the measly €2.5 million you quote.

The fact is that hospitals are going to be downgraded no matter what else is going on in the country because the state is trying to reform the health sector and make it economically viable, rather than a black-hole. (I'm not saying I agree with their tactics, just pointing out their motives).

I as an Irish citizen would like to see money spent on Irish citizens and any surplice could be spent on housing these so called refugees.

All of them?

There is no war in Romania

Romanians can't claim asylum in Ireland - read the thread.

or Nigeria but we continue to house refugees from these areas.

You don't have to be fleeing a war to claim asylum. You should probably read this and this to get an idea about the Nigerian situation - things have improved there in recent years but they're far from safe for many.

The Irish Government will only send refugees back to their country of origin when a body like the UN produces a report deeming it safe to do so.

Dont get me wrong im all for someone trying to better their lives and id like to see the government hand out conditional* work permits. The more hand outs we give the more "refugees" will flock to our shores to exploit paddy the irish man. I really hate these do-gooders that come on with their open door policies. You can bet your life these are well off people that don't have any of them living beside them.

*Condition that employment must got within the first month of arrival.

What do you mean by open door policies? We have such policies for the EU25 and it's caused little or no problems - frankly I think the Irish Government made a stupid mistake by putting restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians to work knowing they couldn't stop them from coming here either way.

And I agree - people should be given the right to work (although asylum seekers who have just arrived should probably have a stalling period of some kind).
I know someone who works in the RIA and she pointed out that some are being processed for over seven years. They cannot work until they get approved, so they're living off welfare for the best part of a decade even though they're probably bored out of their minds and want to earn for themselves.
Ireland is one of only two countries in the EU (I think) that puts these kinds of restrictions no asylum seekers.

Degsy wrote:

Racial abuse?In Nigeria??Do nigerians call other nigerians **** or something?What do Roma gypsies get called in Romania thats so terrible?I think you're grasping at straws here.If they flee "racial abuse" in the country they were born in what makes them think it'll be any better in acountry they werent born in??

May your God help you if you honestly think that racism or racist abuse involves insults and nothing else. I don't think you do, though.

@Morlar, the figures on female employment are meaningless - I don't know the culture too well but I'm guessing females are second class citizens in it. Imagine if you did a similar survey in 1950s Ireland.

As for the high unemployment (although the majority in that survey are working) - maybe that's just laziness on their part, or maybe they can't get a job because there's a perception that they're lazy, dishonest or dangerous.
Again, going back to old America (when the signs said No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish); what do you think employment figures amongst black and Irish communities was there?

flogen

layke wrote:

I was speaking to a Romanian guy I met at a party once and he was mortified when he came here. He was seriously shocked by the fact that all the gypies were coming over and he though Irish people would think all Romanians are like that.

In short, they are the travellers of their own country like we have in Ireland. Seeing as Travellers get lots of free stuff for living off your back and our great country still hasn't solved this problem who's to say they can deal with the Roma coming over in droves.

What free stuff is the State giving Roma people in Ireland?

Degsy

flogen wrote:

What free stuff is the State giving Roma people in Ireland?

Dole money,housing and healthcare..have you nothing better to do than fly in the face of common sense?

Morlar

flogen wrote:

@Morlar, the figures on female employment are meaningless - I don't know the culture too well but I'm guessing females are second class citizens in it.

Saying 'its their culture' that doesnt detract from the fact that roma women in that specific instance have a 95% unemployment rate in a country where there is no excuse of 'no work visas' and this is despite EU efforts to get them in employment and off dole queues and also despite hiring quotas in their favour.

flogen

Degsy wrote:

Dole money,housing and healthcare..have you nothing better to do than fly in the face of common sense?

While I know that Roma are not always Romanians or Bulgarians, a sizable portion of those coming to Ireland are from either of these two countries. As such, they're entitled to none of these things.

If they're from outside the EU the Government is obliged under international law to process their claim of requiring asylum. If they're lying, the state will figure it out and they can then be deported. How long that takes is entirely up to the State. The fact that they have no choice but to take state benefits during this process is also a consequence of a decision by the State.