Roma children taken into care today

Degsy

Dirty Knuckles wrote:

And you really think these bunch of gypo's came here looking for work?.

I'd love to see a reporter ask them about previous work experience!.

I'd bet a pound to a pinch of sh*t Grandpa Rosta wouldn't have a bleed'n clue what the word mean's.

But you may be sure they researched the availability of certain other ways of making money.

Degsy

flogen wrote:

As you were raised in a work-orientated culture, getting work isn't a problem for you - you're happy to pay your way, but you don't speak a word of the local language nor can you read arabic (and it's not even that you can't understand the words or sentences, you can't even decipher the very characters each word is made up of).
You're (presumably) white and Christian so many in this country are suspicious of you or even hostile towards you.
So why haven't you gotten a job yet?

Excellenty example!Of course you'd get a job..you mean to say in "some arabic country" nobody had ver seen a white man?That nobody spoke or understood english?That there were none of your fellow countrymen who you could meet up with and ask about work???
These people didnt step off a plane like dummies..they had plenty of contacts here before they decided to come over,plenty of thier asosciates to say "come over,the irish are an easy touch and begging is legal!"..they probablt thought the streets were paved with gold when thye got here,the fact that they didnt get free housing may have soured the deal a bit for them though but it was worth a try.

Terry

Dirty Knuckles banned for the "Gypo" comment.

Terry

Degsy wrote:

they had plenty of contacts here before they decided to come over

Speculation.

Degsy

Terry wrote:

Speculation.

You reckon?So they had no family,friends or countrymen over here before they arrived?A bit of stretch of the imagination dont you think?

Terry

Degsy, I'm only going to go through this with you one last time.

Degsy wrote:

they had plenty of contacts here before they decided to come over

You have stated this as fact.
You have no proof of this whatsoever.

Whether they had contacts or not is irrelevant to this thread anyway.

I've been extremely patient regarding the sweeping statements you have been making.
I have already warned you once about it.
Do it again and I will regard it as trolling and you will get a lengthy ban.

flogen

Degsy wrote:

Excellenty example!Of course you'd get a job..you mean to say in "some arabic country" nobody had ver seen a white man?

No - but plenty are suspicious or hostile towards white people.

That nobody spoke or understood english?

So you'd go to somewhere like Saudi Arabia and expect everyone else to speak English? Of course some would speak English - maybe about as many as speak Romanian in Ireland - but knowing a few people who understand you doesn't help you get a job where the language being used is the one you don't know.

That there were none of your fellow countrymen who you could meet up with and ask about work???

And say they get you a job - how would you talk to your boss, your customers, your fellow workers? How would you read the signs on a building site, or the prices and information in the shop or the induction manual in the factory?

These people didnt step off a plane like dummies..they had plenty of contacts here before they decided to come over,

How do you know that? And even if they did, how does that help them get a job?

plenty of thier asosciates to say "come over,the irish are an easy touch and begging is legal!"..they probablt thought the streets were paved with gold when thye got here,the fact that they didnt get free housing may have soured the deal a bit for them though but it was worth a try.

So they knew that begging was legal but didn't know that they couldn't get welfare or asylum?
That's interesting - they're completely ignorant to a law that's been in place since January but knew about a legal change that only happened in March?

Your argument is based entirely on assumptions, which stem from what you want to believe and it's extremely contradictory.

You want them to be well versed in Irish law, but not enough to know about the exact laws you claim they came to exploit.
You want them to be lazy, dishonest thieves but refuse to recognise the fact that they couldn't get jobs even if they were the most honest people in the world.

It's quite clear that you're set in your ways about these things and if an assumption based on guesswork is good enough to make your mind up, no amount of facts in the world will change that.

PCros

Well I think getting those papers is the best thing thats happened. They'll be gone soon and at least they wont end up getting sick etc from living down there.

looksee

"Imagine for a second that for whatever reason you have to (or decide to) leave Ireland immediately. You hop on a plane which leaves you in an Arabic country and you need to get work so you can feed and house yourself.
As you were raised in a work-orientated culture, getting work isn't a problem for you - you're happy to pay your way, but you don't speak a word of the local language nor can you read arabic (and it's not even that you can't understand the words or sentences, you can't even decipher the very characters each word is made up of).
You're (presumably) white and Christian so many in this country are suspicious of you or even hostile towards you.
So why haven't you gotten a job yet?"

What sort of an argument is that? You are organised enough for all the family to have passports and enough money to buy plane tickets, yet you randomly get on a plane going to a country where you don't speak the language, your culture will be at odds with the local culture, no-one has any obligation or responsibility towards you and you don't even have a starting point for getting a job (contacts, locally needed skills etc). Are you suggesting that you dont need to have personal responsibility and common sense because someone else will take responsibility for your actions? Would you even go over to London, or even some other city in Ireland (even without a family in tow) with no funds, no job, no accommodation, and expect someone to rescue you?

MDTyKe

I haven't read the full story (just what I have on RTE.ie) nor the last 7 pages on this thread, but here are my views on it:

On one side, I think it's sad that they are "left" there on a motorway roundabout. In another, isn't it a danger to be stuck in a roundabout? And it makes Ireland look like a dump. It is now one of the richest countries in the EU.. and like the 'rich' US, I think we should prepare for an influx of migrants who think the grass is greener on the other side. Though maybe in our case it is...

Humanly, I think it is our responsible to look after our fellow members of humanity - in which case I'd like to see them be given a home or at least a hostel to stay, by the State. However, one has to be aware this has a lot of news coverage, here, and no doubt in Romania. If it's done to one, should it be done to all? If they are welcomed with completely open arms, and given a hostel/home, I'd expect a few more plane loads from Romania over.

In another note, how the hell did Romania get in to the EU? I know Ireland wasn't wealthy - far from it - when it joined, but I dont think we had families living in rubbish dumps?

I think its good though that the local churches and charities have been helping out - it's what they're for after all. It's definately a tough one...


Matt

Terry

In another note, how the hell did Romania get in to the EU? I know Ireland wasn't wealthy - far from it - when it joined, but I dont think we had families living in rubbish dumps?

I take it you didn't live through the 1980's (let alone the '70's etc).
Not to mention travellers, homeless and the ever expanding gap between rich and poor.

MDTyKe

Well, not really... was born in 80s.

flogen

looksee wrote:

What sort of an argument is that? You are organised enough for all the family to have passports and enough money to buy plane tickets, yet you randomly get on a plane going to a country where you don't speak the language, your culture will be at odds with the local culture, no-one has any obligation or responsibility towards you and you don't even have a starting point for getting a job (contacts, locally needed skills etc). Are you suggesting that you dont need to have personal responsibility and common sense because someone else will take responsibility for your actions? Would you even go over to London, or even some other city in Ireland (even without a family in tow) with no funds, no job, no accommodation, and expect someone to rescue you?

My point was to put a context on the situation an uneducated person is in - even if you spoke the local language your inability to read or write it would put you at a severe disadvantage, as would your ethnicity or nationality depending on where you're from or where you are.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that this family didn't decide to come to Ireland, and going by the report in The Irish Times Weekend supplement today they do speak some English. I'm also not abdicating their personal responsibility.

My point is that, even if they had work permits, they'd have a very hard time finding work in Ireland (or anywhere for that matter) because of the low levels of education in their community and the mistrust many have built up towards them.

thebaz

What is it about the roma that makes them so despised ?

I don't think i have heard a positive about the Roma !
They are hated here , in romania , the rest of Europe !

Do they have any good qualities that are to be welcomed ?

its all aggressive begging , scaming , persecuted ....

i think the way they use there children to beg is too be deplored , but i would be interested in hearing of some of there cultural positives or human skills they bring to the world !!

flogen

thebaz wrote:

What is it about the roma that makes them so despised ?

I don't think i have heard a positive about the Roma !
They are hated here , in romania , the rest of Europe !

Do they have any good qualities that are to be welcomed ?

its all aggressive begging , scaming , persecuted ....

i think the way they use there children to beg is too be deplored , but i would be interested in hearing of some of there cultural positives or human skills they bring to the world !!

I agree about using children to beg - it makes me sick. I never give money to beggars anyway, but if I did I certainly wouldn't give it to someone using a child as a prop.

As for good qualities that the culture brings, well can you really pigeon-hole an entire ethnic group like that? Is there something Irish people brought as a whole that can be considered positive? There are plenty of notable Irish artists, inventors etc., but their nationality was circumstantial and their achievements were personal.

looksee

The argument about the Roma is very similar to the Traveller argument. Do they actually want housing and training and education and jobs? Have we established that our own Travellers want all these things? Yes, some do and are willing to become part of mainstream society. But many do not, they prefer to pursue their culture and stay outside the system, while still availing of halting sites and other benefits of living parallel to a structured society.

Do they have a basic right to pursue their own culture while another culture is expected to support them?

The real problem is that many settled people are afraid that they are being laughed at. Most people would not have any problem with people in real need being helped by the State. But when Sean Citizen gets up every morning and goes to work and pays his taxes and his mortgage and his VHI and does his best to raise his family on what's left, then sees people claiming a different culture - a culture which keeps itself outside the system and recognises no obligations towards society - being given the benefit of state support that he is paying for, he is likely to be annoyed that he is being taken for a fool.

Add to this the fact that the Roma in question have managed to get themselves and their families across Europe before coming to rest in the most unlikely and conspicuous place possible, is it surprising that there is a lack of enthusiasm for getting involved in their situation. Is there any chance they will clean up their camp before they leave?

flogen

looksee wrote:

The argument about the Roma is very similar to the Traveller argument. Do they actually want housing and training and education and jobs? Have we established that our own Travellers want all these things? Yes, some do and are willing to become part of mainstream society. But many do not, they prefer to pursue their culture and stay outside the system, while still availing of halting sites and other benefits of living parallel to a structured society.

I'm not sure if it's intentional, but you seem to be suggesting here that it's impossible to practice a certain culture whilst being an upstanding member of wider Irish society.

Sure - if people (traveler, immigrant, asylum seeker, "settled" person or otherwise) wants to live off welfare when they're well able (but simply unwilling) to work for themselves then I have no time or sympathy for them - they can rot for all I care.

It's different when they're not given the basic tools required to actually give something back, though. Let me be clear that I don't think in this case that's the fault of Ireland - it's certainly not.

It might not be the fault of Romania either, I can't be sure. That said I don't think it's right of Ireland to contribute to the problem by passing the buck completely just because we're not the source of it, nor do I think it is our absolute and total responsibility to solve a problem we didn't cause.

In other words, this is an issue that has to be addressed across Europe, with countries putting systems in place to bring these types of communities up to a standard that will allow them to work legitimately for themselves.

Do they have a basic right to pursue their own culture while another culture is expected to support them?

No - but there's nothing, to the best of my knowledge, in Romani or Irish Traveler culture that requires such a separation.

Neither culture revolves around the demand that you do not get a job, you do not pay taxes or you do not get a formal education - it's just that some within these cultures have chosen to take this path. Others have been forced down it.

The real problem is that many settled people are afraid that they are being laughed at. Most people would not have any problem with people in real need being helped by the State. But when Sean Citizen gets up every morning and goes to work and pays his taxes and his mortgage and his VHI and does his best to raise his family on what's left, then sees people claiming a different culture - a culture which keeps itself outside the system and recognises no obligations towards society - being given the benefit of state support that he is paying for, he is likely to be annoyed that he is being taken for a fool.

As I said - there's no culture in Ireland that acts like this. There are people that act like this, but they can be found of any ethnicity, culture or colour and come from any and every county and country.

Add to this the fact that the Roma in question have managed to get themselves and their families across Europe before coming to rest in the most unlikely and conspicuous place possible, is it surprising that there is a lack of enthusiasm for getting involved in their situation.

Well it's not that hard to get across Europe nowadays and they didn't start off on the M50 - as I've said already they probably just saw a patch of unused, unclaimed land that they could camp on... places like that are hard to come by in Ireland, let alone Dublin.

Is there any chance they will clean up their camp before they leave?

You'd have to ask them that.

MooseJam

flogen wrote:

As I said - there's no culture in Ireland that acts like this. There are people that act like this, but they can be found of any ethnicity, culture or colour and come from any and every county and country.

Sure theres no culture that acts like this, just a very large number of people
from a certain culture act like this, totally different thing

flogen wrote:

as I've said already they probably just saw a patch of unused, unclaimed land that they could camp on... places like that are hard to come by in Ireland, let alone Dublin.

There is a huge amount of open ground in Dublin, fields and fields and more fields, there isn't any reason to be camped on a roundabout

arybvtcw0eolkf

Forgetting the rights and wrongs of arriving in Ireland ill-equipt to provide for yourself and relying on the good will of other's to lookafter you.

Forgetting all that for a moment.

But, what will be the cost of cleaning this patch of land and putting it back into the condition it was eight weeks ago?.

I take it the vast majority of people contributing to this thread haven't seen the environmental damage caused by these Roma people?.

I also wonder how this would be dealth with if these Roma set up camp in Dartmouth Sq, Dalkey, Foxrock etc.. instead of Ballymun.

And BTW, its not just the roundabout in Ballymun, its also a large patch of land on the slip road southbound at the junction, its land beside Sillogue golf course, and a large derelict house on the Swords road.

Their begging extends from the Ballymun M50 junction to the Ballymun shopping centre, all the junctions on the Ballymun road and in as far as the city centre.

Dudess

Here is the Wikipedia entry on Roma. For those who are adamant that they all come from Romania, have a read of it. True, the majority do come from Romania but many, many more come from countries all over the world. The word "Romania" may contain the word "Roma" but they are not just Romanian. Maybe that's where the confusion lies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

To those who believe that they can't be experiencing persecution: gypsies have experienced persecution in Europe for centuries. They are also an ethnic minority - they are not white. The majority of Roma come from Eastern Europe but they are not slavic. So to suggest that they wouldn't be experiencing persecution because they would "blend in" "over there" is bollocks. 1. They are nomadic, 2. They look different.
Travellers here are white and yet, would you argue that they don't experience discrimination? (that isn't an invitation to start a rant about all the trouble caused by travellers. Whether it's true or not, travellers do face discrimination.)

My view on the M50 case is quite a conservative one, but either way, the above facts are being shoved aside by some.

flogen

MooseJam wrote:

Sure theres no culture that acts like this, just a very large number of people from a certain culture act like this, totally different thing

Again with the generalisations - how about backing it up rather than just repeating such vague assumptions? Or is that too much to ask from someone labeling a large portion of a culture as welfare scroungers (despite the fact that most of that culture can't even claim welfare in Ireland)?

There is a huge amount of open ground in Dublin, fields and fields and more fields, there isn't any reason to be camped on a roundabout

Land that no-one owns? No.

They were originally camped near the Swords Road but were moved on - that was probably one of the open patches of land you're referring to.

Mairt wrote:

Forgetting the rights and wrongs of arriving in Ireland ill-equipt to provide for yourself and relying on the good will of other's to lookafter you.

Forgetting all that for a moment.

But, what will be the cost of cleaning this patch of land and putting it back into the condition it was eight weeks ago?.

I take it the vast majority of people contributing to this thread haven't seen the environmental damage caused by these Roma people?.

I also wonder how this would be dealth with if these Roma set up camp in Dartmouth Sq, Dalkey, Foxrock etc.. instead of Ballymun.

And BTW, its not just the roundabout in Ballymun, its also a large patch of land on the slip road southbound at the junction, its land beside Sillogue golf course, and a large derelict house on the Swords road.

While I'm sure it's far worse now than it was before, something tells me the M50 Roundabout was never much of an Oasis and was probably more of a dump for many.

And given that Dartmouth Square was a public park (before the owner decided to turn it into a car park), I'd imagine people would be demanding they were moved on if they camped there. Just like they would if they parked at Albert College Park down the road.

Their begging extends from the Ballymun M50 junction to the Ballymun shopping centre, all the junctions on the Ballymun road and in as far as the city centre.

Yeah, and I've seen them at the nearby Aldi, Omni and on my own road nearby.
Your point?

MooseJam

flogen wrote:

Again with the generalisations - how about backing it up rather than just repeating such vague assumptions? Or is that too much to ask from someone labeling a large portion of a culture as welfare scroungers (despite the fact that most of that culture can't even claim welfare in Ireland)?

Thats a bit unfair, I wasn't talking about the Roma, as for backing any of these things it's a bit hard unless you start taking polls, some things are just known without the need for backup, for example how about the sweeping generalisation that most people in Somalia are black, I'm sure you would agree with that statement but lets see anyone back it up

flogen

MooseJam wrote:

Thats a bit unfair, I wasn't talking about the Roma, as for backing any of these things it's a bit hard unless you start taking polls, some things are just known without the need for backup, for example how about the sweeping generalisation that most people in Somalia are black, I'm sure you would agree with that statement but lets see anyone back it up

When did I say you were talking about Roma?

You made a generalisation, whoever you were referencing it at, when you said "a very large number of people from a certain culture". How do you know it's a very large number? You're just assuming it is.

Terry

This has gotten out of hand.
Enough.