Roma children taken into care today

Tweeter

flogen wrote:

While I know that Roma are not always Romanians or Bulgarians, a sizable portion of those coming to Ireland are from either of these two countries. As such, they're entitled to none of these things.

With this in mind some journalist should interview them and do a newspaper piece to help dispel any myths and ask them what possible logic they apply when deciding on coming here. It simply doesn't make any sense to arrive here knowing that they can't support themselves. They must have some agenda that they're not admitting to!!

Terry

Degsy wrote:

Racial abuse?In Nigeria??Do nigerians call other nigerians **** or something?What do Roma gypsies get called in Romania thats so terrible?I think you're grasping at straws here.If they flee "racial abuse" in the country they were born in what makes them think it'll be any better in acountry they werent born in??

It's tribal.
Picture a Dublin employer not hiring someone because their name is "Ward".
Now picture the government treating this Ward person like crap because of his name.

Read some of the replies after the one in which you quoted me.

Morlar wrote:

mountainyman wrote:

I read a council of europe report about roma in romania which said that 90% of them work.

MM

Going from people I know from who are from romania (non gypsy roma) I find that very very hard to believe. Do you have a source or link for that ? When you say work - do you mean fulltime gainful employment ? Or are you counting begging as work.

I was speaking to a Romanian guy I met at a party once and he was mortified when he came here. He was seriously shocked by the fact that all the gypies were coming over and he though Irish people would think all Romanians are like that.

The comments here just show that the Romanians seem to despise the Roma.

Degsy

flogen wrote:

While I know that Roma are not always Romanians or Bulgarians, a sizable portion of those coming to Ireland are from either of these two countries. As such, they're entitled to none of these things.

If they're from outside the EU the Government is obliged under international law to process their claim of requiring asylum. If they're lying, the state will figure it out and they can then be deported. How long that takes is entirely up to the State. The fact that they have no choice but to take state benefits during this process is also a consequence of a decision by the State.

So which is to be?Are they EU citizens who cant claim the dole or are they asylum seekers who CAN claim the dole?The point here is the small issue of work.If you want to work here,apply for a work permit,dont apply for asylum.If you dont have a work permit and you WANT To work then dont come here..its really very simple.Another thing worth pointing out is that fact that Roma gypsies no matter where they come from or where they end up tend NOT to work,they tend to beg,steal,scam etc and that is teh point that people are making.Within this country they are undesirable because thier culture is not one that places a high regard on an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.Why people like you will argue and re-argue the same jaded points is completely beyond me..do you not think there's enough dishonest people in the country?The taxpayer is getting screwed hard enough as it is without having to fund the parasitical lifestyles of people who dont give a ****e which country they're in or about the customs of that country.

Degsy

Terry wrote:

It's tribal.
Picture a Dublin employer not hiring someone because their name is "Ward".
Now picture the government treating this Ward person like crap because of his name.

But the government dont treat people like crap because thier name is Ward.They,and i assume you mean travellers are a pampered sub-section of irish society who are free to pretty much live outside the law if they choose.It was a masterstroke of political do-gooderism that allowed a bunch of ethnicly irish people to acheive ethnic minority status by not paying taxes,not obeying land bounderies and in may cases indulging in criminal behaviour.If there's a "tribal" problem is a country 5000 miles distant its probably safe to assume that its been going on like that for a very long time and the people involved have learned to deal with it.Its not as if these problems have suddenly manifested themselves along tribal lines but more that ireland has become economicly prosperous and politically soft when it comes to dealing with hard-luck cases.We,as a country are setting precendents here and the eyes of a lot of oppurtunists are fixed on us.

Collie D

Degsy wrote:

We,as a country are setting precendents here and the eyes of a lot of oppurtunists are fixed on us.

You start digging that trench, Degsy, good man

flogen

Degsy wrote:

So which is to be?Are they EU citizens who cant claim the dole or are they asylum seekers who CAN claim the dole?

They're EU citizens who can't claim the dole - have you not been following this thread?

The point here is the small issue of work.If you want to work here,apply for a work permit,dont apply for asylum.

They haven't (and cannot) apply for asylum.

If you dont have a work permit and you WANT To work then dont come here..its really very simple.

No, it's not. If you don't have a work permit and want to work here you can still come here and work as self employed. The Roma on the roundabout haven't exactly sorted their papers out to be a registered self employed person, but they can still come here and claim that they're going to.

Another thing worth pointing out is that fact that Roma gypsies no matter where they come from or where they end up tend NOT to work,they tend to beg,steal,scam etc and that is teh point that people are making.

That's a dangerous generalisation - I won't even ask for facts to back it up because I know you don't have them.

Even Morlar's figures, which did show a high unemployment rate amongst Roma in Macedonia, prove you wrong.

Within this country they are undesirable because thier culture is not one that places a high regard on an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

You're projecting your own opinion onto the whole country.

Why people like you will argue and re-argue the same jaded points is completely beyond me..do you not think there's enough dishonest people in the country?

On the contrary I know there are plenty of dishonest people in this country and one is too many - that doesn't mean that we should block everyone else from coming in on the off chance that they're dishonest (an assumption we reach based on their race)

The taxpayer is getting screwed hard enough as it is without having to fund the parasitical lifestyles of people who dont give a ****e which country they're in or about the customs of that country.

You're willfully ignoring the fact that these "parasitical lifestyles of people" that you're referring to are getting NO state benefits.

Morlar wrote:

Saying 'its their culture' that doesnt detract from the fact that roma women in that specific instance have a 95% unemployment rate in a country where there is no excuse of 'no work visas' and this is despite EU efforts to get them in employment and off dole queues and also despite hiring quotas in their favour.

It doesn't detract, but it might contextualise.
If the culture believes that women should not work (and should stay at home, raise kids etc. just like ours did only a generation or two ago) then of course you're going to have a huge unemployment rate amongst females of that culture. It's common sense.
That doesn't mean that the gender inequality in their culture is excusable, it just recognises the fact that it exists.

Twitter wrote:

With this in mind some journalist should interview them and do a newspaper piece to help dispel any myths and ask them what possible logic they apply when deciding on coming here. It simply doesn't make any sense to arrive here knowing that they can't support themselves. They must have some agenda that they're not admitting to!!

They've already said what their reasons were - nothing could be worse than where they had been previously. They also necessarily don't need benefits or a job to get by - begging can be a lucrative pass-time.

But maybe they do have an agenda that they're not admitting to, I can't speak for them. The point is, though, that under current legislation they cannot get benefits nor can they be deported (well, as it stands, but that might change as they approach the 'three months in Ireland' mark).

gurramok

Terry wrote:

There may not be a war in either of the countries you mentioned, but some of the people arriving on our shores from these places are victims of racial abuse in their own countries.
Think Northern Ireland in the first half of the 20th century.

However, This particular group of Roma did not come directly from Romania.
The spent many years in other countries before coming here.

It was reported that they sold their homes in Romania to come all the way here through several countries, hence they are originally from Romania.

And to Flo, all nationals from the new EU10 need to be working 2 years here before they claim the dole and obviously Bulgarians\Romanians need work permits or being self-employed to gain work else they are tourists.

Romania is a democratic booming country now in the EU, if there were racial and discrimination issues, then the EU were wrong to admit them with their strict entry criteria and you were right that these people are being persecuted in Romaina?!

On the bigger picture, if the govt give in to these welfare tourists, i'd heed on what the Romania rep said about more waiting to come over.

The Roma have a population of around 500,000 to 2m in Romania(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_minority_in_Romania), we are talking huge numbers to come if we are seen as soft on welfare.

Louth4sam

flogen wrote:

Firstly, there is no such thing as the North East Health Board, so your figures are either referring to what the NEHB used to spend, or what the HSE spends. Or else they're made up.

Fair enough point on the name change of the north eastern health board but those figures were quoted in the local paper a couple of years back.

flogen wrote:

Either way, €2.5 million is small change to this Government when you look at the size of our annual budget. In fact, our budget surpluses for the last 10 years have vastly exceeded the measly €2.5 million you quote.

Although €2.5 million might be small change when taken into context of the total health budget it could still go a long way in a small hospital.

flogen wrote:

Romanians can't claim asylum in Ireland - read the thread.

What about those already housed by the HSEs are they now all going to be mass evicted.

flogen wrote:

You don't have to be fleeing a war to claim asylum. You should probably read this and this to get an idea about the Nigerian situation - things have improved there in recent years but they're far from safe for many.

The Irish Government will only send refugees back to their country of origin when a body like the UN produces a report deeming it safe to do so.

Under UN law a refugee can only claim asylum in the first country they arrive in. As there are no direct flights to Ireland from Nigeria in that case they should not be granted asylum here. I understand there were/are great atrocities carried out in Nigeria but there are also a large numbers of those that carried out these atrocities moving over here. There are quite a few nigerians living in Ireland that seem to be very well off. Where did they get this money when living in a 2nd/3rd world country.

flogen wrote:

What do you mean by open door policies? We have such policies for the EU25 and it's caused little or no problems

I understand that but there are some parties and individuals that would like to have a complete open door policy to allow any individual "seeking employment" to immigrate to Ireland. Policies like this could cripple our country especially if the country encounters any kind of economic troubles.
[/QUOTE]

flogen wrote:

And I agree - people should be given the right to work (although asylum seekers who have just arrived should probably have a stalling period of some kind).
I know someone who works in the RIA and she pointed out that some are being processed for over seven years. They cannot work until they get approved, so they're living off welfare for the best part of a decade even though they're probably bored out of their minds and want to earn for themselves.
Ireland is one of only two countries in the EU (I think) that puts these kinds of restrictions no asylum seekers.

I would have no problem with genuine asylum seekers being given temporary work permits to seek employment. It would be to of benefit to both the state(taxes) and to the asylum seeker(wages, learn language, integrate) The problem is when people claim asylum falsely with no other intention then to milk the irish government for as much money as they can get.

flogen wrote:

As for the high unemployment (although the majority in that survey are working) - maybe that's just laziness on their part, or maybe they can't get a job because there's a perception that they're lazy, dishonest or dangerous.

Do you think it could be because they ARE lazy, dishonest or dangerous that they dont want to work?

flogen wrote:

Again, going back to old America (when the signs said No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish); what do you think employment figures amongst black and Irish communities was there?

In old america, the Irish and Freed slaves got no handouts whatsoever. They worked hard. I dont think you'd find anything even close to that level of unemployment in a black or irish ghetto in old america. They worked hard because if they didnt they would die.

Terry

Degsy, you should know better than to make claims like that without backing them up with facts.
Flogen summed up the flaws in your post fairly well.
Consider this a warning.

Louth4Sam wrote:

Do you think it could be because they ARE lazy, dishonest or dangerous that they dont want to work?

This is not acceptable.

I'm going to start banning people if these baseless generalisations keep up.

flogen

gurramok wrote:

It was reported that they sold their homes in Romania to come all the way here through several countries, hence they are originally from Romania.

From what I've read/heard they were living next to a dump - they didn't have "homes", they just camped somewhere in Romania

And to Flo, all nationals from the new EU10 need to be working 2 years here before they claim the dole and obviously Bulgarians\Romanians need work permits or being self-employed to gain work else they are tourists.

Thanks for clearing that up - wasn't sure but figured they couldn't just come here and claim the dole straight away!

Romania is a democratic booming country now in the EU, if there were racial and discrimination issues, then the EU were wrong to admit them with their strict entry criteria and you were right that these people are being persecuted in Romaina?!

It's not booming, not yet. And even if it was booming it's not going to make a difference for many years - it has so far to go in terms of its economy that years of booming are needed just to make it an average EU nation.

And if the EU refused members on the grounds of racism and discrimination within their nation... well, there'd be no EU left.

On the bigger picture, if the govt give in to these welfare tourists, i'd heed on what the Romania rep said about more waiting to come over.

I wouldn't disagree with that, to be honest. You're always going to have a section of society that looks for a free lunch wherever they can get it.
I only wish Ireland opened its doors completely to Romania and Bulgaria in the first place - when they did so for the new EU10 we got people coming here to work. Now workers from Romania and Bulgaria (including people from the Roma community) aren't coming here because they can't get permits and all we're likely to get are black market labourers (which I'd include begging in).

People here are saying the Roma should get jobs - they can't. I'm not saying they would if they could but the fact is they can't.

The Roma have a population of around 500,000 to 2m in Romania(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_minority_in_Romania), we are talking huge numbers to come if we are seen as soft on welfare.

That's kind of like Pat Rabbitte's 40million Poles comment as it assumes that everyone who could come over, will.

Louth4sam

Terry wrote:

Degsy, you should know better than to make claims like that without backing them up with facts.
Flogen summed up the flaws in your post fairly well.
Consider this a warning.


This is not acceptable.

I'm going to start banning people if these baseless generalisations keep up.

Im only basing them on what i have experienced and from what other people i have been speaking too have experienced. I was responding to the point that the romas cannot get employment as that was peoples perceptions of them. I was stating that maybe peoples perceptions were correct. I have worked in a number of countries with a number of nationalities, religions and cultures but i have never seen or heard of a roma working anywhere. So would you agree i may have a base to MY generalisation even if its not a generalisation you would agree with?

Terry

Louth4sam wrote:

Im only basing them on what i have experienced and from what other people i have been speaking too have experienced. I was responding to the point that the romas cannot get employment as that was peoples perceptions of them. I was stating that maybe peoples perceptions were correct. I have worked in a number of countries with a number of nationalities, religions and cultures but i have never seen or heard of a roma working anywhere. So would you agree i may have a base to MY generalisation even if its not a generalisation you would agree with?

Yes, I agree you may have grounds for your generalisation, but you stated it as fact without any proof to back it up.

It's all in the wording.

flogen

Louth4sam wrote:

Although €2.5 million might be small change when taken into context of the total health budget it could still go a long way in a small hospital.

I agree, but the Government could put that money into a local hospital if they wanted to - even after looking after everything else (including asylum seekers). They just aren't.

I could easily point to any number of other things where the Government are spending money, and say that it could be better spent in health.
I bet well over €2.5 million is spent keeping public monuments clean every year, for example.

My point is that the money is there, but part of the Government's health strategy is to downgrade hospitals to make the system more efficient. That wouldn't change if they had €1trillion more to spend a year - they've thrown money at the system for so long they realise they need to do something else.

What about those already housed by the HSEs are they now all going to be mass evicted.

There aren't any, so they won't have to be.

Under UN law a refugee can only claim asylum in the first country they arrive in. As there are no direct flights to Ireland from Nigeria in that case they should not be granted asylum here. I understand there were/are great atrocities carried out in Nigeria but there are also a large numbers of those that carried out these atrocities moving over here. There are quite a few nigerians living in Ireland that seem to be very well off. Where did they get this money when living in a 2nd/3rd world country.

Well for a start, let's be clear. There are people coming from countries like Nigeria who claim asylum and don't need it (as they're making money from something else, be it trafficking, drugs, or something "safer").
I've heard stories of guys in the asylum process who drive Mercs - obviously they're scammers.
I just hope the State realises this during the process and deports them.

Also, I don't know how asylum seekers typically make it to Ireland but I doubt it's on a plane. There are plenty of ways to get from Ireland to Nigeria directly, even if it means chartering something yourself.

And hey, maybe they've been country hopping, I don't know. If the State can prove it, they should deport them back to the country they're supposed to claim asylum in.

I understand that but there are some parties and individuals that would like to have a complete open door policy to allow any individual "seeking employment" to immigrate to Ireland. Policies like this could cripple our country especially if the country encounters any kind of economic troubles.

Political parties? I don't know of any.
If the country encounters any economic troubles and the jobs dry up you can bet that many people who came here from the EU25 will move on - they don't plan on staying for long anyway.
I don't think we should have a completely open door for all countries, but I do think we should for the EU27.

I would have no problem with genuine asylum seekers being given temporary work permits to seek employment. It would be to of benefit to both the state(taxes) and to the asylum seeker(wages, learn language, integrate) The problem is when people claim asylum falsely with no other intention then to milk the irish government for as much money as they can get.

So we're agreed on that.
Yeah, some do claim falsely and as I've said, I can only hope they're spotted and dealt with. In fact, giving temporary work permits could help that, as genuine seekers would only be too happy to work for their money while the scammers wouldn't.
In that case an asylum seeker who shows a willingness to work and an ability to hold a job would have a far greater chance of getting asylum, while one who had the chance to work but chose not to wouldn't look so good.

Do you think it could be because they ARE lazy, dishonest or dangerous that they dont want to work?

I'm sure plenty of them are all of the above but as people in Ireland know, the few can spoil it for the rest. Maybe a handful are dishonest and quite blatantly so, so when the rest go asking for jobs people say the likes of "we don't want your type around, I know what you lot are like" etc.
I think it would be extremely foolish to jump to the conclusion that an entire race is lazy, dishonest and/or dangerous - at least not until I met them all.

In old america, the Irish and Freed slaves got no handouts whatsoever. They worked hard. I dont think you'd find anything even close to that level of unemployment in a black or irish ghetto in old america. They worked hard because if they didnt they would die.

And the Romanians and Bulgarians don't get handouts either (while asylum seekers have no opportunity to work hard).

I think unemployment figures would have seemed pretty high in old American Irish ghettos, to be honest. The reason being that they don't count black labour or illegal work and as most Irish immigrants were illegal, they couldn't work legally.

WellyJ

Disgraceful really

gurramok

flogen wrote:

It's not booming, not yet. And even if it was booming it's not going to make a difference for many years - it has so far to go in terms of its economy that years of booming are needed just to make it an average EU nation.

Oh yes it is.

A little up to date read on Romania's economy is enlightening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania

Romania Economy wrote:

With a GDP per capita (PPP) of $10,661[11] estimated for 2007, Romania is considered an upper-middle income economy[12] and has been part of the European Union since 1 January 2007. After the Communist regime was overthrown in late 1989, the country experienced a decade of economic instability and decline, led in part by an obsolete industrial base and a lack of structural reform. From 2000 onwards, however, the Romanian economy was transformed into one of relative macroeconomic stability, characterised by high growth, low unemployment and declining inflation. In 2006, according to the Romanian Statistics Office, GDP growth was recorded at 7.7%, one of the highest rates in Europe.[13] Unemployment in Romania was at 4.5% in April 2007[14] which is very low compared to other middle-sized or large European countries such as Poland, France, Germany and Spain. Foreign debt is also comparatively low, at 20.3% of GDP.

To you and me, thats full employment like we have. Plenty of jobs around for anyone that is willing to work.

flogen wrote:

And if the EU refused members on the grounds of racism and discrimination within their nation... well, there'd be no EU left.

Well, there goes the prinicples of the EU then. 'Get 'em in the club no matter what their record is'
Your view is totally at odds at what the EU's view is!

flogen wrote:

That's kind of like Pat Rabbitte's 40million Poles comment as it assumes that everyone who could come over, will.

We did get 200,000 from Poland who came(some left since)unlike the 20 odd thousand that a govt minister had predicted at the time of enlargement.

I support the Govt's and UK govt's restrictions on Bulgaria\Romania, we don't need welfare tourism here.
We need as part of Europe to help their economies to grow even stronger so their native people can stay where they live without the emotional torture of migrating to a far away distant country.

Degsy

Terry wrote:

Degsy, you should know better than to make claims like that without backing them up with facts.
Flogen summed up the flaws in your post fairly well.
Consider this a warning.


This is not acceptable.

I'm going to start banning people if these baseless generalisations keep up.

Note my use of the words "some" and "tend" as opposed to "all" and "do".

Morlar

flogen wrote:

It doesn't detract, but it might contextualise.
If the culture believes that women should not work (and should stay at home, raise kids etc. just like ours did only a generation or two ago) then of course you're going to have a huge unemployment rate amongst females of that culture. It's common sense.
That doesn't mean that the gender inequality in their culture is excusable, it just recognises the fact that it exists.

Roma unemployment levels (men and women) are approaching the 100% mark across europe - according to the official sources on this (the world bank, the UN, even from minorityrights.org)

The world bank Study:

"It is not uncommon to find reports of unemployment rates of up to 100 percent in Roma settlements—due to their low skill levels and discrimination in the labor market, Roma are frequently among the first to be laid off."

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/ECAEXT/EXTROMA/0,,contentMDK:20333806~menuPK:615999~pagePK:64168445~piPK:64168309~theSitePK:615987,00.html

The UN Study :
(Roma Human Development Challenges and opportunities UN DP site)

"For example, Roma unemployment is often reported to reach 95 to 100 percent"
http://roma.undp.sk/reports_contents.php?parent_id=1&id=203

Minority Rights.org( RE Macedonia - which flogen incorrectly stated had a majority or Roma in the workforce)

"According to state data, 71.3 per cent of
the Roma population is unemployed. Roma sources5 say the
true figure is around 95 per cent. There are 16,740
registered unemployed Roma, but many are not registered,
because of lack of documents and lack of awareness of the
criteria for registering;6 thus the real number of unemployed
Roma is significantly larger"

http://www.minorityrights.org/admin/Download/pdf/RomaMacedoniaMicro2005.pdf

I would be interested to see an equally independent/impartial study from a prestige group like the Un or the World bank which shows roma EMployment levels to be high. That would seem to contradict most peoples perception and the official data on it too.

At the beginning of this thread- they had high unemployment rates as they had no working visa. Then it was women specific due 'its their culture'. Now the figures show high roma unemployment levels (almost 100%) are not related to no work visas, nor are they specific to women -there is a possibility here that maybe they do not want to work. Perhaps they would rather milk the welfare system.

Terry

Degsy wrote:

Note my use of the words "some" and "tend" as opposed to "all" and "do".

Degsy wrote:

Within this country they are undesirable because thier culture is not one that places a high regard on an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

That is what i'm talking about.

gurramok

Here is the Indo story about the whole affair.

What is disturbing is that some of the Roma who have arrived here have criminal convictions in their home country, where are the background checks to only allow law-abiding folk in?
The M50 group rejected the prospect of health & education benefits and free housing in Romania nevermind the free flights home and sun , the mind boggles.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gypsies-reject-flights-home-1039916.html

Indo wrote:

A GROUP of Roma gypsies living in makeshift camps near the M50 motorway have rejected offers of free flights home.

The gypsies were also promised by the Romanian government that they would have health and education benefits and would be considered for free housing.

Romanian embassy officials in Dublin said last night they were embarrassed by the activities of the gypsies, many of whom were begging on the streets of Dublin.

Officials from several Government departments were in contact with the embassy last night about the status of the group, which has been camping on the roundabout on the Ballymun exit from the M50 and at the Old Swords Road.

Embassy officials said they were concerned about an influx of gypsies who had begun coming here since January, after Romania gained access to the EU.

Many of them had arrived here from other countries, including Spain and France, after being told they would receive a daily cash allowance and free housing here. However, they have not been entitled to any benefits since the start of the year.

They have no work permits, are not involved in the educational system and do not have sufficient means to support themselves.

But garda inquiries discovered that one man had wired €1,400 to his wife through the Western Union, although his wife is living here with him.

"They can use the Western Union like a bank and the money can stay in the system without being collected for two years," one source said.

There is no evidence to indicate how a man who claims to be penniless and lives on the side of the road can be in possession of such a large amount.

"It is not likely that this money was gained from begging," the source added.

Some of the Roma gypsies who have been arriving here since the start of the year have convictions in their home country for a series of criminal offences including aggravated burglary and aggravated theft.

About 30 of them have been detained here by gardai for public order offences such as allowing their children to beg on the streets.

Embassy officials have attempted to negotiate with them and said it was not true, as they claimed, that conditions for them at home were worse than they are here.

A fresh offer of free flights home was made to the group living near the M50 yesterday morning.

Gardai denied reports that they had attempted to move the gypsies away from the encampment, where they have been living in spartan conditions for the past two months.

Intelligence

Intelligence given to the Romanian embassy suggested that many of those now living here had arrived from Spain, Lyons in France and Brussels.

One senior embassy official told the Irish Independent: "We are very embarrassed that some of our citizens have been involved in aggressive begging on the streets of Dublin.

"They seem to be under the impression that if they stay here long enough they will be given special allowances.

"But the law is clear and there are many others watching developments elsewhere. If concessions are made in Ireland, a large influx of others will arrive."

The Roma co-ordinator for the Travellers' lobby group Pavee Point, Sara Russell, said yesterday that the Roma living in the M50 encampment had been subjected to racist attacks and slurs.

She said that eggs had been thrown and abuse shouted at a family on Tuesday night.

flogen

gurramok wrote:

Oh yes it is.

A little up to date read on Romania's economy is enlightening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania


To you and me, thats full employment like we have. Plenty of jobs around for anyone that is willing to work.

My mistake - the economy does seem to be going north alright.
I stand by my point on the fact that the country still needs a lot of growth to make it equal to the rest of the EU, however.
The unemployment figure is lower than I'd expected too.

Of course if they're discriminated against, it doesn't matter how high employment is in an area.

Well, there goes the prinicples of the EU then. 'Get 'em in the club no matter what their record is'
Your view is totally at odds at what the EU's view is!

The idealistic objections of the EU are very different to what the EU actually does, but discrimination in Romania may have been covered during their accession through an agreement to tackle the issue over the coming years.

We did get 200,000 from Poland who came(some left since)unlike the 20 odd thousand that a govt minister had predicted at the time of enlargement.

And?

I support the Govt's and UK govt's restrictions on Bulgaria\Romania, we don't need welfare tourism here.
We need as part of Europe to help their economies to grow even stronger so their native people can stay where they live without the emotional torture of migrating to a far away distant country.

But as you've said yourself, members of the EU10 cannot be "welfare tourists" - they have to work here for two years (paying taxes) before they can start claiming welfare.

Terry

Morlar wrote:

The world bank Study:

"It is not uncommon to find reports of unemployment rates of up to 100 percent in Roma settlements—due to their low skill levels and discrimination in the labor market, Roma are frequently among the first to be laid off."

Morlar wrote:

At the beginning of this thread- they had high unemployment rates as they had no working visa. Then it was women specific due 'its their culture'. Now the figures show high roma unemployment levels (almost 100%) are not related to no work visas, nor are they specific to women -there is a possibility here that should be entertained - possibly they do not want to work. Possibly they would rather milk the welfare system.

Did you even read what you were citing?

Morlar

Terry wrote:

Did you even read what you were citing?

Yes I did read the figures and the possible excuses. So you would rather believe that almost 100% unemployment is everyone elses fault ?

Do you think there is a possibility that maybe they just dont want to work ?

Terry

Morlar wrote:

Yes I did read the figures and the possible excuses. So you would rather believe that almost 100% unemployment is everyone elses fault ?

Do you think there is a possibility that maybe they just dont want to work ?

Of course that possibility exists, but until someone somewhere can prove otherwise, I will not allow sweeping generalisations to be made in this thread or in any other.

flogen

Morlar wrote:

Roma unemployment levels (men and women) are approaching the 100% mark across europe - according to the official sources on this (the world bank, the UN, even from minorityrights.org)

The world bank Study:

"It is not uncommon to find reports of unemployment rates of up to 100 percent in Roma settlements—due to their low skill levels and discrimination in the labor market, Roma are frequently among the first to be laid off."

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/ECAEXT/EXTROMA/0,,contentMDK:20333806~menuPK:615999~pagePK:64168445~piPK:64168309~theSitePK:615987,00.html

The UN Study :
(Roma Human Development Challenges and opportunities UN DP site)

"For example, Roma unemployment is often reported to reach 95 to 100 percent"
http://roma.undp.sk/reports_contents.php?parent_id=1&id=203

Minority Rights.org( RE Macedonia - which flogen incorrectly stated had a majority or Roma in the workforce)

"According to state data, 71.3 per cent of
the Roma population is unemployed. Roma sources5 say the
true figure is around 95 per cent. There are 16,740
registered unemployed Roma, but many are not registered,
because of lack of documents and lack of awareness of the
criteria for registering;6 thus the real number of unemployed
Roma is significantly larger"

http://www.minorityrights.org/admin/Download/pdf/RomaMacedoniaMicro2005.pdf

Fair enough - I misread the report and got the impression from the 16,000 unemployed out of 53,000 that there were a majority in work - I'm happy to concede that was wrong.

The thing is, all your reports above point to discrimination and a lack of education as a reason for such high unemployment rates. You're just happy to assume that the real reason is their laziness.

At the beginning of this thread- they had high unemployment rates as they had no working visa.Then it was women specific due 'its their culture'. Now the figures show high roma unemployment levels (almost 100%) are not related to no work visas, nor are they specific to women -there is a possibility here that maybe they do not want to work. Perhaps they would rather milk the welfare system.

What welfare system are they milking, exactly?
I made the point about gender inequality when I was under the impression that most women didn't work but most men did. The reports your producing all show low education and discrimination to be the reason for generally huge (or universal) unemployment and the fact that one report says that Roma are generally the first to get laid off suggests that many are looking for and attaining some jobs, even if they're at the bottom of the ladder.
Of course some don't want to work, you just seem to assume that most or all don't want to work and that it's no-one's fault but their own.

Morlar

Terry wrote:

Of course that possibility exists, but until someone somewhere can prove otherwise, I will not allow sweeping generalisations to be made in this thread or in any other.

Ok so first of all they had high employment rates - ROMA are at 90% employed in romania.

That was blown out of the water with statistical evidence which ilustrated that the exact opposite was closer to reality - ie they had 95% unemployment across the boards.

Then that was an anomaly in the first study - ie its only women and thats cos of their 'cultcha innit'.

Then that idea was disproven with the UN and worldbank/minority rights.org studies that revealed that its not women specific its across the boards.

Now you are saying that without statistical evidence to prove this point

ie that approaching 100% unemployment cant be because they dont want to work and would rather milk the system

because there is no statistical evidence to prove this point then in your opinion then this is simply not the case ?

I think the majority of people seeing those numbers (which were a shock to me too) would make their own conclusions without requiring statistical evidence to confirm it. Its pretty obvious that most if not all of them do not actually want to work and are quite happy to milk the system.

Morlar

flogen wrote:

Fair enough - I misread the report and got the impression from the 16,000 unemployed out of 53,000 that there were a majority in work - I'm happy to concede that was wrong.

I would agree that that part could have been clearer.

tbh

Morlar wrote:

Yes I did read the figures and the possible excuses. So you would rather believe that almost 100% unemployment is everyone elses fault ?

Do you think there is a possibility that maybe they just dont want to work ?

Is that really what you believe? Do you think that they chose to live on a roundabout because it was easier than getting a job? Do you think that the luxury of living off Irish Welfare is what drives an entire culture to absent themselves from the rest of society and live in squalid conditions, missing out on education, healthcare and all of the other good stuff that you get simply because you happened to be born in a particular country?
Do you honestly believe that people won't discriminate against a culture because of their perceptions of that culture? Would you employ a roma as a security guard, even if you didn't know a single thing about him? or would you assume that you can't trust him. Multiply that by an entire country across dozens of generations, and see how keen you'd be to keep fighting the good fight. It's the same reason that people in deprived areas turn to heroin. They are here because they have nothing to lose by coming here.

The attitude of most posters here is that "they are someone else's problem - send them back and let the government of the country they were born in look after them". I hate that attitude, dividing the world into little bits where everyone is stuck whether they like it or not helps no-one. What if the hundreds of Irish kids who go to the States each year for treatment were turned away because they were not born there? If any of you posting to turn them away had a child who needed life-saving surgery in the US, you'd go, right? Of course you would. It works both ways.

Having said all that, I think - as I've said in other threads - that, while they should be allowed stay, we should invest time and money in breaking the cycles that have led them (I'm talking about these specific families) into the state they are in. I support the action of taking the children into care, hopefully these children can grow up to be productive, happy, well-adjusted Irish citizens.

Morlar

tbh wrote:

Is that really what you believe? Do you think that they chose to live on a roundabout because it was easier than getting a job?

I think if you encourage a culture of dependence well then living at the side of the road in a misguided attempt at emotional blackmail in order to get a free house and free money can seem like a good idea to the alternative of getting up and going out to work all day. Its a possibility some people here seem religiously opposed to considering.

tbh wrote:

while they should be allowed stay, we should invest time and money in breaking the cycles that have led them (I'm talking about these specific families) into the state they are in. I support the action of taking the children into care, hopefully these children can grow up to be productive, happy, well-adjusted Irish citizens.

If you succeeded there (breaking the cycle of roma dependence) I think you would be the first person in the history of europe to manage that.

tbh

Morlar wrote:

I think if you encourage a culture of dependence well then living at the side of the road in a misguided attempt at emotional blackmail in order to get a free house and free money can seem like a good idea to the alternative of getting up and going out to work all day. Its a possibility some people here seem religiously opposed to considering.

So why don't you do it? Serious question. If it's so easy, why isn't everyone doing it?

If you succeeded there (breaking the cycle of roma dependence) I think you would be the first person in the history of europe to manage that.

Are you saying that it can't be done? Maybe they are just born that way, yeah?

Degsy

Terry wrote:

That is what i'm talking about.

"They" being the people who come here to scrounge and scam,therefore the culture of those who do so is at odds with our society.Not ALL Roma or ALL anybody.Do these people not realise that they're ambassadors for thier own race?