Steorn again

judas101

ronoc wrote:

The only thing that has been overlooked is Steorns crackpot machine. They are either scammers or idiots.

you're setting yourself for a mighty fall






but probably not tho

judas101

judas101 wrote:

you're setting yourself for a mighty fall






but probably not tho

It will be the whole science community that will fall. But its not going to happen.

judas101

so you think it's going to fall flat on its arse?

i hope they dont make a national embarassment out of us!

Ice_Box

ronoc wrote:

*sigh*

So one of the most proven laws in physics has been overlooked? So each law and theory which have been proven on the basis of this, and there are a lot of them, are technically incorrect too?

Each law that has been proven and used test the original laws is rubbish too?

The only thing that has been overlooked is Steorns crackpot machine. They are either scammers or idiots. But whatever the outcome there is no such thing as creating energy.
Ring any college's department of Physics and ask them about Steorn's invention. Make your judgement on how long they continue laughing.

It’s true what McCarthy said. The reaction is almost religious. Why so much anger against this claim? Why accept the man made laws of thermodynamics as faith? Why is it not possible that the humans who wrote these laws made a mistake? Why does science invent something like Dark Matter instead of looking for a mistake in other calculations?

Conservation of Energy me árse as they whisper in Dublin.

cornbb

Ice_Box wrote:

It’s true what McCarthy said. The reaction is almost religious. Why so much anger against this claim? Why accept the man made laws of thermodynamics as faith? Why is it not possible that the humans who wrote these laws made a mistake? Why does science invent something like Dark Matter instead of looking for a mistake in other calculations?

Conservation of Energy me árse as they whisper in Dublin.

Its shocking that people are saying this! So you would take the word (i.e. PR spin, without any sort of concrete evidence or explanations) of a dodgy-sounding former marketing company in serious financial trouble over centuries of repeatedly observed and proven laws of nature? They are not man-made laws, they are completely out of our control.

Its like modern-day alchemy. Whatever Steorn are up to they are trying to attract attention, they've certainly succeeded in that

biko

If it's all it's cranked up to be I'll just catch it on the general news.

Ice_Box

Ice_Box wrote:

It’s true what McCarthy said. The reaction is almost religious. Why so much anger against this claim? Why accept the man made laws of thermodynamics as faith? Why is it not possible that the humans who wrote these laws made a mistake? Why does science invent something like Dark Matter instead of looking for a mistake in other calculations?

Conservation of Energy me árse as they whisper in Dublin.

Your grasp of science is a bit off I'm afraid.
*more sighing*
Dark Matter is a theory. There is a huge difference between a theory and a law. This Dark Matter theory has been invented, as you say, to try to tie together other theories.

Laws are theories that have been scientifically proven. They are not simply there to balance the math. They have been proven, repeated and reproven in different ways proven against other laws. The first law of thermodynamics is a law. Energy cannot be created or destroyed!

It is almost religious because:

They haven’t proven anything

They don't know how it works

They insist on a bizarre trial rather than scientific methods

They choose who gets to test it

They are claiming to break one of the most fundamental and proven laws in physics.

kevmy

Ice_Box wrote:

It’s true what McCarthy said. The reaction is almost religious. Why so much anger against this claim? Why accept the man made laws of thermodynamics as faith? Why is it not possible that the humans who wrote these laws made a mistake? Why does science invent something like Dark Matter instead of looking for a mistake in other calculations?

Conservation of Energy me árse as they whisper in Dublin.

Is it possible that humans (as opposed to the aliens) made mistakes in the calculations for thermodynamics. Yes.
Is it probable? No
Is it probable that these guys from Dublin prove them wrong? No
People don't accept thermodynamics by faith; they have done experiments, calibrations, test, mathematics - we call it science. Faith is something without real basis in fact that you accept anyway. Thermodynamics has proof behind it.
Why doesn't science invent something useful?
I see your sitting at a table with a pen and a paper sending messages to use through the mail ... oh wait your not!!
I see you flew to your sun holiday by riding on a dragon ... oh wait you didn't!!
I see that when you get sick you get a witch in to shake a stick over and rub some herbs on you ... oh wait you don't!!

And by the way Steorn haven't put out any calculations to debunk or find mistakes in.

zuutroy

They're nothing but marketing gimps. I cant believe how people here think its possible that MILLIONS of man hours of scientific research have overlooked something so basic.
I'm a researcher myself and its quite annoying to see these ****ehawks getting any air-time whatsoever.

judas101

ronoc wrote:

They haven’t proven anything

They don't know how it works

They insist on a bizarre trial rather than scientific methods

They choose who gets to test it

They are claiming to break one of the most fundamental and proven laws in physics.

all very interesting points.

i'm open to be shocked tho.

i want to believe!!!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Ice_Box

cornbb wrote:

Its shocking that people are saying this! So you would take the word (i.e. PR spin, without any sort of concrete evidence or explanations) of a dodgy-sounding former marketing company in serious financial trouble over centuries of repeatedly observed and proven laws of nature? They are not man-made laws, they are completely out of our control.

Its like modern-day alchemy. Whatever Steorn are up to they are trying to attract attention, they've certainly succeeded in that

I’m do not believe Steorn have actually developed a perpetual motion machine. I’m just surprised by the way so called scientists are getting so angry about their claims. It’s like the flat earth mentality.

Slow Motion

kmick wrote:

it sounds like the email you get telling you if you forward it on Steve Jobs will send you an IPOD. You know its ****e but you do it anyway (once).

You mean that's not true ? I've been bugging the postman for nothing

zuutroy

Ice_Box wrote:

It’s like the flat earth mentality.

Very good point, but I still think it's a load of tripe.

Ice_Box

Ice_Box wrote:

I’m do not believe Steorn have actually developed a perpetual motion machine. I’m just surprised by the way so called scientists are getting so angry about their claims. It’s like the flat earth mentality.

Except this time steorn is effectivly trying to tell us the world is flat.

All this without prooving it, explaining how it works or letting people look at it and test it independently.

bonkey

ronoc wrote:

Your grasp of science is a bit off I'm afraid.

As would yours appear to be.

Laws are theories that have been scientifically proven.

Nope.

Science can prove nothing. Falsifiability is the very core of modern science. If something is not falsifiable, it is not scientific. If something is proven then it cannot - by definition - be falsified.

Everything in modern science - from thermodynamics through gravity to quantum effects are all "just" theory. Not one of htem has been scientifically proven because the term is meaningless.

It is possible that Steorn have found a case that counters existing theory - in effect falsifying it. It is, however, not very probable. The manner in which Steorn have carried out their campaign to date makes it even less probable in the eues of the scientific community.

It is not, however, the scientific community that Steorn care about.

judas101

hmmmm good post^^

cornbb

Ice_Box wrote:

I’m do not believe Steorn have actually developed a perpetual motion machine. I’m just surprised by the way so called scientists are getting so angry about their claims. It’s like the flat earth mentality.

Scientists are getting angry because some tiny uppitty secretive company are making a mockery of their work. Scientists would be considered the sort to drag our collective consciousness away from "flat earth mentality" btw, not reinforce it.

zuutroy

bonkey wrote:

Science can prove nothing. Falsifiability is the very core of modern science. If something is not falsifiable, it is not scientific. If something is proven then it cannot - by definition - be falsified.

Sorry, I missed Philosophy 101. If science can't prove anything, then what can?

0ubliette

Whats the bet that the grand unveiling is a massive hamster wheel and an unlimited supply of hamsters.

science can prove nothing. Falsifiability is the very core of modern science. If something is not falsifiable, it is not scientific. If something is proven then it cannot - by definition - be falsified.

You Fail sir. Women are real right? Theyre proven? I can wear a dress and falsify myself as a moderatly attractive woman tho

cornbb

bonkey wrote:

Science can prove nothing. Falsifiability is the very core of modern science. If something is not falsifiable, it is not scientific. If something is proven then it cannot - by definition - be falsified.

No disrespect intended and correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't appear to "believe in" science - if this is the case, what do you believe in?

Fair enough, science involves an element of faith and it can be considered a branch of philosophy. But given the choice between believing in science, religion, nothing, or the crackpots/con artists at Steorn, I'll take science.

Thrill

0ubliette wrote:

Whats the bet that the grand unveiling is a massive hamster wheel and an unlimited supply of hamsters.

Lol :D:D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXRH50fvHWA




.

aidan24326

ronoc wrote:

Ring any college's department of Physics and ask them about Steorn's invention. Make your judgement on how long they continue laughing.

While I absolutely agree with you that this is most unlikely to be anything revolutionary, the history of science is full of great minds who were laughed at initially so that in itself isn't a reason to dismiss this.

Surely a load of crap though. Anyone who had genuinely achieved such a thing would have it tested and scientifically verified. Nobel prizes, world fame and great riches would ensue. I won't hold my breath but sure let's wait and see. Even if they haven't rewritten the physics book it's possible they may have stumbled upon something interesting.

edit:sp

bonkey

Ice_Box wrote:

I’m just surprised by the way so called scientists are getting so angry about their claims.

I would argue its more to do with how Steorn has p1ssed on the established system of scientific review and their claims about that rather than it is about the validiity of their actual claims.

aidan24326

0ubliette wrote:

Whats the bet that the grand unveiling is a massive hamster wheel and an unlimited supply of hamsters.

It's hamsters all the way down. The turtles got fired.

bonkey

zuutroy wrote:

Sorry, I missed Philosophy 101. If science can't prove anything, then what can?

In mathematics, we can prove mathematical statements within the boundaries of the mathematical systems they apply to.

Beyond that, "proof" takes on a very blurry meaning.

zuutroy

bonkey wrote:

In mathematics, we can prove mathematical statements within the boundaries of the mathematical systems they apply to.

The vast majority of scientific theories are proven using maths. Maths can be used to describe a physical system, ergo science can be used to prove stuff.

Duggy747

Bah, global warming and all that. Set off a few nukes, I say, then we'll have nuclear winter, that'll cool the planet down and hopefully wipe out a few jobless, know-it-all hippies too!

Anyways, back on topic. I find this hard to believe really. You'd think for something of this "magnitude" would garner enough publicity! When the webcast airs it's probably Steorn's staff all laughing and flipping us off.

bonkey

cornbb wrote:

No disrespect intended and correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't appear to "believe in" science - if this is the case, what do you believe in?

Oh, I absolutely have faith in science and its strengths. I just don't like seeing it misportrayed as being more or less than it is.

There is a common misconception that certain aspects of science are beyond doubt because they have been "proven". This is not the case.

There are certain aspects of science that are almost certain because we have found that they have time and time and time again stood up to falsifiable tests.

Science creates models. Those models often have limits to their applicability. Its possible that someone will find something which shows that the limits to a model need to be reconsidered.

For example...Newton came up with his Laws of Phsyics (and remember, my objection here was the notion that Laws have been proven). We know that Newton's Laws of physics are wrong. They're good enough for many jobs, but on an absolute "right or wrong" basis, they are wrong.

Newton's laws have been replaced by two sets of theories - Relativity and Quantum. Each seems to be a pretty-good fit at a certain scale, but it can also be said that each is incomplete (hence the search for a Unified Theory).

Even then, we couldnt' say that it was absolutely right, only that it matched all observations we had made. We couldn't say with 100% certainty that it will hold true tomorrow, or that it holds true everywhere, only that it appears to hold true wherever we have tested it.

Its a fine distinction and its one that leaves many people feeling uncomfortable, but the thing is that science doesn't care how you feel.

Nothing in science is proven. Its all falsifiable. Whether its likely or not to be falsified is a completely seperate question, but in general you can take it that something which holds as a theory in modern science is on pretty solid turf.

So, getting back to the point...yes....Steorn could have found a loophole. Then again, gravity could stop working tomorrow. Neither is ruled out by science, but neither is terribly likely.

bonkey

zuutroy wrote:

The vast majority of scientific theories are proven using maths.

No, they're not.

The vast majority of scientific theories can be expressed using a mathematical representation of the physical system. If that representation is incorrect or inaccurate, then so is the proof.

Maths can be used to describe a physical system,

But maths cannot be used to show that the description is accurate and complete.

ergo science can be used to prove stuff.

Look, you can repeat it all you like, but science must be falsifiable. There's no way around it - thats just part of what science is.

For something to be falsifiable it requires by definition that it must be possible to show it to be false.

It may not be false, but there's no way in science of ever proving that.