British terrorist threat - Is it only a matter of time here?

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote:

Iran has a street named Bobby Sands Street out of respect in Tehran. .

Nah!! that was a poke at Britain for siding with the US in the Tehran US hostage crisis. Nothing to do with supporting Irish republicans.

Franz Ferdinand

Here's how it works folks.

When a muslim lives in your country, he is obliged to do two things under their custom.
1. Keep his head down and be nice.
2. Work quietly to convert as many locals as possible to Islam - promote Islam - get his family into the land to try and make it an Islamic land - or as they term it 'Darul Islam'.

If they meet any resistance in this path (and of course, they usually do) then the land they are in is labelled 'Darul Harb' or 'land of war'. This then legitimises the commencement of Jihad to 'protect' the muslims living there, and to push toward the assimilation of the country into 'Darul Islam' by any means, including violence.

Once a land is 'Darul Islam' it is such FOREVER.
Witness the demands made by OBL that 'Al Andalus' (Spain, to you and me) must be 'handed back' to muslim control, even though 500 years have passed since they were ejected.

If you think this is bull - have a look at the numbers in the survey again. The majority of UK muslims want Sharia Law to rule the land. These 'peaceful' muslims are in effect asking for their religion to dominate the UK.

There may be trouble ahead....

irish_bob

dlofnep No, Ireland is fine and always will be. We're not imperialists and won't ever be touched. Ireland is respected by many middle-eastern countries for it's long wars against imperialism.

Iran has a street named Bobby Sands Street out of respect in Tehran. There is also the the palestine/irish soladarity movement. Trust me, they all understand the difference between Ireland and Britain.



stupidest thing ive ever heard

irish_bob

irish_bob wrote:

dlofnep No, Ireland is fine and always will be. We're not imperialists and won't ever be touched. Ireland is respected by many middle-eastern countries for it's long wars against imperialism.

Iran has a street named Bobby Sands Street out of respect in Tehran. There is also the the palestine/irish soladarity movement. Trust me, they all understand the difference between Ireland and Britain.



stupidest thing ive ever heard

!! Islamic imperialists are no respectors of other nations past record on empire building. In other words they don't care wheather you had an empire or not, they will still see you as an "infadel" nation that has no right to exist.

Red Alert

Peaceful Muslims want Sharia Law
Peaceful America wants american law (and oil companies) in Iraq

Red Alert

Red Alert wrote:

Peaceful Muslims want Sharia Law
Peaceful America wants american law (and oil companies) in Iraq

+1

Franz Ferdinand

Originally Posted by Red Alert
Peaceful Muslims want Sharia Law
Peaceful America wants american law (and oil companies) in Iraq

Peaceful Irish people want neither in Ireland.

Not that it'll make any difference!

irish_bob

Franz Ferdinand Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Alert
Peaceful Muslims want Sharia Law
Peaceful America wants american law (and oil companies) in Iraq


Peaceful Irish people want neither in Ireland.

Not that it'll make any difference!



neither in ireland , not sure what you mean exactly , i know irish people for the most part want cheap oil , the difference between irish people and ameircan people is not very great only irish people are probably that bit more greedy , then again , what nation are more divils for money than us

InFront

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

you need to learn Arabic double quick my friend, otherwise you lack credibility with the Jihadis!

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

I have debated with muslims on their hardcore sites, any question about the nasty bits of the Koran is usually dismissed as a 'misinterpretation' of the true Arabic meaning, and that one cannot understand the Koran properly unless it is read in the native Arabic.

any 'muslim' who does not speak Arabic does not in fact know their religion, or understand the Koran.

First of all, they don't sound very "hardcore". It sounds like they were attempting to explain misunderstandings about what the Qur'an says, and trying to explain something to you that you just don't get.
You don't have to be able to understand Arabic to be a good Muslim. I can understand Arabic and I wouldn't say it makes me a better or a worse Muslim than anybody else, being a Muslim has nothing to do with linguistic skills.

It's fair to say that a Muslim should try to learn Arabic to get as much from the Qur'an as he can, and to help guide him in the intricate instructions of faith and life as could be reasonably expected, but most people get on perfectly fine without that. As long as one can understand the message and intended meanings of the passages, and live by them, that's what matters.
Also, if you're not a Muslim and you don't believe in Islam to begin with, I don't see what place you think you have giving wes advice on how to be one.

When a muslim lives in your country, he is obliged to do two things under their custom.
1. Keep his head down and be nice.
2. Work quietly to convert as many locals as possible to Islam - promote Islam - get his family into the land to try and make it an Islamic land - or as they term it 'Darul Islam'.

I'm sure that may be what you've seen on TV or what those anti-Islamic websites feed you, and maybe you get a kick out of believing it. It's stupid.

I'd guess with pretty good degree of certainity that you don't actually know any Muslims, and are just paranoid. I think anybody here would be pushing it to expect and covince you otherwise, but at least we can point out that what you're talking about in this thread, the links youre trying to pass off as valid sources of information, the attempt at victimisation of a society that you claim for yourself, it's all complete garbage.

Franz Ferdinand

InFront wrote:

First of all, they don't sound very "hardcore". It sounds like they were attempting to explain misunderstandings about what the Qur'an says, and trying to explain something to you that you just don't get.

Remember rule number one:

1. Keep head down and be nice.

You don't have to be able to understand Arabic to be a good Muslim. I can understand Arabic and I wouldn't say it makes me a better or a worse Muslim than anybody else, being a Muslim has nothing to do with linguistic skills.

No interest in debating that with you. I don't have any opinion on what it takes to be a 'good muslim', I'm not a muslim.
All I'm telling you is what your own 'brothers' tell anyone who quotes the nasty war-mongering sections of the koran. Their ritual reply is - if you can't speak/read arabic you don't understand the koran. Their words, not mine.

I'm sure that may be what you've seen on TV or what those anti-Islamic websites feed you, and maybe you get a kick out of believing it. It's stupid.

Eh, no. I've done a lot of reading. Its in your history, and in your religion. What I see on TV just goes to prove it.

I'd guess with pretty good degree of certainity that you don't actually know any Muslims, and are just paranoid.

Wrong again. I know plenty of muslims and have lived in Islamic countries. I've seen you operate, up close, on home ground.

I think anybody here would be pushing it to expect and covince you otherwise, but at least we can point out that what you're talking about in this thread, the links youre trying to pass off as valid sources of information, the attempt at victimisation of a society that you claim for yourself, it's all complete garbage.

Deny Deny Deny, keep repeating the mantra. We're not all blind though, and the facts somewhat seem to contradict you.
There isn't a country in the world with a muslim population that hasn't suffered strife from them. Even the most tolerant and passive. Look at Holland, and France.
It'll happen here too.

wes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Remember rule number one:
1. Keep head down and be nice.

Paranoid, much? Do you think all Muslims are involved in some evil plot or something? Seems that way to me.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

No interest in debating that with you. I don't have any opinion on what it takes to be a 'good muslim', I'm not a muslim.
All I'm telling you is what your own 'brothers' tell anyone who quotes the nasty war-mongering sections of the koran. Their ritual reply is - if you can't speak/read arabic you don't understand the koran. Their words, not mine.

A lot of this and that, and you seem to have had a opinion on what a good Muslim was a few posts ago. You went out of your way to do so with me. Your own words damn you here, since you went after me with much gusto. So you do have an opinion, just re-read your own posts, you went out of your way to say that I said certain things (which I didn't), to try and prove some kind of point and then your many comment on "la cartism" or whatever term you were using.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Eh, no. I've done a lot of reading. Its in your history, and in your religion. What I see on TV just goes to prove it.

There is a lot of Islamic history. A lot of conflicting sources etc. Many people draw different conclusions etc from history. Not all Muslims even share the same stance on history. So a generalization.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Wrong again. I know plenty of muslims and have lived in Islamic countries. I've seen you operate, up close, on home ground.

Bolded the "you", seeing as you can't mean Infront (unless your stalking him or something), your clearly referring to all Muslims here.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Deny Deny Deny, keep repeating the mantra. We're not all blind though, and the facts somewhat seem to contradict you.
There isn't a country in the world with a muslim population that hasn't suffered strife from them. Even the most tolerant and passive. Look at Holland, and France.
It'll happen here too.

Another sweeping generalizations. Seems to me, you think we are all involved in some evil plot. Sounds like a familiar refrain.

Btw it could also be said that there isn't a country, in the world that hasn't suffered from European imperialism.

As for France, you clearly seem to misrepresenting the riots there as an evil "Muslim" plot, when the reasons are far far more mundane. Its about an minority that is not integrated and faces racism. Do a quick Google and you will find an EU report on how people with Muslims sounding names are half as likely to get a job as someone who doesn't have a Muslim name, despite having identical qualifications. So when facts are brought into the incredibly complex situation in France, it seems to be that the situation is what your trying to sell here, but something completely different. BBC News has many a good stories on what is going on in France. The BBC is of course a very well trusted news sources.

Franz Ferdinand

wes wrote:

Paranoid, much? Do you think all Muslims are involved in some evil plot or something? Seems that way to me.

If you wish to call Islam an evil plot....your words, not mine.

A lot of this and that, and you seem to have had a opinion on what a good Muslim was a few posts ago.

Really? Show me where? Any such opinions expressed are those passed to me by your own co-religionists.
Their words, not mine.

You went out of your way to do so with me. Your own words damn you here, since you went after me with much gusto. So you do have an opinion, just re-read your own posts, you went out of your way to say that I said certain things (which I didn't), to try and prove some kind of point and then your many comment on "la cartism" or whatever term you were using.

This is incomprehensible waffle to me, I think you're getting annoyed. Stay cool.

There is a lot of Islamic history. A lot of conflicting sources etc. Many people draw different conclusions etc from history. Not all Muslims even share the same stance on history. So a generalization.

Ah yes - it's all just a 'matter of interpretation'. Like the koran, eh?
Not all muslims share the same stance on history? Internal arguments about who should've led the faith after muhammed died are your own business. You may well disagree with each other on it...again, I have no interest.
However, I do have an interest in historical facts - such as the fact of the Islamic invasion of Spain and Europe in the 8th century, which continued right up to the end of the first world war. One Thousand years of attack on Christian territory is brushed aside in muslims desire to paint themselves as victims of The West.

Bolded the "you", seeing as you can't mean Infront (unless your stalking him or something), your clearly referring to all Muslims here.

Yes. YOU means 'muslims collectively'.

Btw it could also be said that there isn't a country, in the world that hasn't suffered from European imperialism.

Which came first...Western Imperialism, or Islamic Imperialism?
Read some history.

As for France, you clearly seem to misrepresenting the riots there as an evil "Muslim" plot, when the reasons are far far more mundane. Its about an minority that is not integrated and faces racism.

The only 'plot' is the collective persecution complex which is enthusiastically embraced by muslims worldwide.
Why is the muslim population of France, Britain, Holland, Germany etc not 'integrated'? Because they don't want to be. Islamic chauvinism encourages muslims to separate themselves from the 'kuffir' in their host country, to preserve their 'Islamic Culture and Purity of Religion'.
The result is ghettoisation and seething resentment at the 'infidels' who 'persecute' them.

The BBC is of course a very well trusted news sources.

Well halleleujah! A well trusted source. Finally.
I'll make a note of that for future reference.

Franz Ferdinand

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Why is the muslim population of France, Britain, Holland, Germany etc not 'integrated'? Because they don't want to be. Islamic chauvinism encourages muslims to separate themselves from the 'kuffir' in their host country, to preserve their 'Islamic Culture and Purity of Religion'.

There are many English speaking communities in asian & african countries who do not integrate into the local communities as well, but these groups of people do not have any hidden agenda to take control of their host country or impose their influence in the way muslaim communities do in the west. (I AM REFERRING TO THE CURRENT SITUATION, NOT THE DAYS OF EUROPEAN EMPIRES, before anyone comments about The British empire in Africa etc, someone will of course)



The Chinease communities in Europe don't integrate either, but they live a parallel life without imposing their beliefs on their neighbours.

A classic example is "chinatown" in London, it's just like Hong Kong. Outside chinatown the chinese respect the western way of life, a bit like "when in Rome" different communities can live side by side without integrating (Norm Iron excepted :rolleyes:).

PS the BBC are less untrustworthy than many other "news" sources, They try to be impartial as much as possible.

Victor

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

wes wrote:

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Wrong again. I know plenty of muslims and have lived in Islamic countries. I've seen you operate, up close, on home ground.

Bolded the "you", seeing as you can't mean Infront (unless your stalking him or something), your clearly referring to all Muslims here.

Yes. YOU means 'muslims collectively'.

That "you", explained away or not, comes across as profoundly offensive and bigoted.

Which came first...Western Imperialism, or Islamic Imperialism?

Chicken, egg? 'The west' is descended from the Roman Empire, who did quite a bit of imperialism.

wes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

If you wish to call Islam an evil plot....your words, not mine.

Did you read what I said? Clearly you didn't. I asked a question. Hence the question mark.

So I didn't say what you claimed I said. Not the first time you have done this.

So once again not my words, you just made some random claim of what I said. You really over use the straw man argument big time.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Really? Show me where? Any such opinions expressed are those passed to me by your own co-religionists.
Their words, not mine.
This is incomprehensible waffle to me, I think you're getting annoyed. Stay cool.

Heres what you said:

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

I asked you that question because whenever I have debated with muslims on their hardcore sites, any question about the nasty bits of the Koran is usually dismissed as a 'misinterpretation' of the true Arabic meaning, and that one cannot understand the Koran properly unless it is read in the native Arabic.
This means to me that any 'muslim' who does not speak Arabic does not in fact know their religion, or understand the Koran. So, how can you speak here for a religion you admit you cannot understand?

The part in bold, this is where you said something I never said. You do have an opinion on what makes a proper Muslim. Trying to hide behind the entire someone else said it business, isn't a good defense. You are presenting what other people said as a part of your argument. If you didn't care, you wouldn't present the argument at all. So the fact you present this argument at all, shows that you do care to a degree.

I am hardly annoyed by anything you said. Most of what you say is one long straw man after another, half of the time.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Ah yes - it's all just a 'matter of interpretation'. Like the koran, eh?
Not all muslims share the same stance on history? Internal arguments about who should've led the faith after muhammed died are your own business. You may well disagree with each other on it...again, I have no interest.
However, I do have an interest in historical facts - such as the fact of the Islamic invasion of Spain and Europe in the 8th century, which continued right up to the end of the first world war. One Thousand years of attack on Christian territory is brushed aside in muslims desire to paint themselves as victims of The West.

There is diverse opinion among Muslims on interpretation of the Koran. To dismiss the difference and trying to present Muslims as a homogeneous group is rubbish. There is huge difference in opinion. Your trying to present Muslim as one huge group who are all the same. Which they are not. Whether you care about this or not, doesn't matter, you making grand claims about this and that. I am just pointing out there is huge difference of opinion among Muslims. You can go right on about not caring about that, but I will make the point since you insist that Muslims are one huge homogeneous entity. I am presenting a counter argument, this is a message board, not a soap box. If you don't like debate, you should perhaps start a blog or go to a message board, where everyone agrees with you.

European imperialism has always been as wide spread as Muslim imperialism. However, the Ottoman empire also conquered other Muslims and the Arabs during World War 1, sided with the allies who promised freedom, but they were lied and got dictators instead. A lot of the resentment comes from there.

As for any Muslim invasions of Europe, there hardly being pushed aside. Recent history of European imperialism is certainly more relevant to these people, especially considering the Arabs sided with the allies only to be betrayed.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Which came first...Western Imperialism, or Islamic Imperialism?
Read some history.

Roman imperialism and before that Greek imperialism and Persian Imperialism. Plenty of imperialism going on before Islam and Christianity existed.

Clearly I am not the one who needs to read a history book. Nice of you to try and present a distorted view of history to suit your own ends.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

The only 'plot' is the collective persecution complex which is enthusiastically embraced by muslims worldwide.
Why is the muslim population of France, Britain, Holland, Germany etc not 'integrated'? Because they don't want to be. Islamic chauvinism encourages muslims to separate themselves from the 'kuffir' in their host country, to preserve their 'Islamic Culture and Purity of Religion'.
The result is ghettoisation and seething resentment at the 'infidels' who 'persecute' them.

Each of those situations are completely different. The situation in Britain is different to France and is again different to Germany again. Trying to sell them as being exactly the same is rubbish. The situations are very different, especially the situation in France.

Also, each situation is as much the fault of Muslims who moved there, I will admit, it is up to a migrant to integrate into there new communities. However, the argument you present is pure hyperbole, you are ignoring how complex the issue is.

Also the countries involved who were completely unprepared for large amount of migrants who they all taught would leave after a few years (this is the case for France and Germany, not sure about the UK). Bad planning on all sides has a much reason to the situations that have arisen there.

Also ignoring the very real racism that exists in France, where people are judged on there names and names alone. Well, when the entirety of the situation is looked at, it changes the perception of the situation quite a bit. Odd that you didn't even address the racism in France at all.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Well halleleujah! A well trusted source. Finally.
I'll make a note of that for future reference.

Nice bit of sarcasm there. The BBC is one of the best main stream news sources out there. They actually do reviews on there organization to make sure, they are as unbiased as possible. Not a lot of news organizations do that.

Franz Ferdinand

That "you", explained away or not, comes across as profoundly offensive and bigoted.

I'm not explaining anything away! I gave you a straight answer - YOU refers to ALL muslims.
If we were talking about ALL Christians here I'd use the same term. Its a collective noun. Does Political Correctness now forbid the use of the word YOU?

Chicken, egg? 'The west' is descended from the Roman Empire, who did quite a bit of imperialism.

So now the West is to blame for the excesses of Caligula and Nero?
The Roman Empire disintegrated around 400AD, and no unified Western World existed until the very recent past - perhaps the formation of the League Of Nations in 1920.
In the intervening 1,500 years the only Imperial power with any cohesion was the various incarnations of muslim domination in Africa and Asia Minor, and lets not forget their non-stop attempts at conquering a weakened and divided europe. The siege of Vienna by a muslim army was broken in 1683, only 7 years before King Billys army conquered Ireland (a date which is still very much alive in our own history). This is recent past!

wes wrote:

Did you read what I said? Clearly you didn't. I asked a question. Hence the question mark.So I didn't say what you claimed I said. Not the first time you have done this.So once again not my words, you just made some random claim of what I said. You really over use the straw man argument big time.Heres what you said:The part in bold, this is where you said something I never said. You do have an opinion on what makes a proper Muslim. Trying to hide behind the entire someone else said it business, isn't a good defense. You are presenting what other people said as a part of your argument. If you didn't care, you wouldn't present the argument at all. So the fact you present this argument at all, shows that you do care to a degree.I am hardly annoyed by anything you said. Most of what you say is one long straw man after another, half of the time.

The responses in this thread are becoming voluminous in length thanks to this sort of babbling. That sure gets boring. Rather than respond to Wes's numerous denials of what he said or didn't say I'll just move on - we'll be here all night otherwise.

There is diverse opinion among Muslims on interpretation of the Koran. To dismiss the difference and trying to present Muslims as a homogeneous group is rubbish.

Hmmm - if that's the case, tell me, why do British muslims become quite so extremely agitated about what happens to muslims in Palestine or Iraq? Why do 'educated' 'westernised' muslims feel moved to blow themselves (and innocent people) to bits over what happens in Iraq?
To a simple minded westerner you seem overly preoccupied with one-anothers problems, to the extent of comitting mass murder when you feel upset enough about something going on thousands of miles away.
We both know whats really going on Wes. The muslim concept of 'Ummah' means that while there may be petty differences - when it comes down to it the whole muslim UMMAH will act collectively to attack anyone or anything you see as a threat to the collective.

European imperialism has always been as wide spread as Muslim imperialism.

I would say the Western World has been BETTER at Imperialism than the Muslim Empire. That is where a good part of this resentment comes from. The Jihadists still dream of retaking Al Andalus, but you'll never do it again the way it was done in 700AD.

Roman imperialism and before that Greek imperialism and Persian Imperialism. Plenty of imperialism going on before Islam and Christianity existed.

Your point being?

Also ignoring the very real racism that exists in France, where people are judged on there names and names alone. Well, when the entirety of the situation is looked at, it changes the perception of the situation quite a bit. Odd that you didn't even address the racism in France at all.

Actually I did. Read it again.
I own a second home in France. I'm well used to French snobbery toward 'les etrangers' - since I too am an 'etranger'!
However, I choose to be there.
If I don't like the French I'll just sell up and leave.

Why don't your Algerian cousins consider doing so too?

Could it be that they know the life style and living standards they have in France are light years ahead of what they'll find if they move back to Algeria where they came from?
Certainly it is!

The truth is - these rioters (or scum as Mr.Sarkozy rightly labelled them) want it all their way. All the 'good' western bits can remain (free medical care, clean cities, reliable electricity supplies, clean water etc) but all those 'bad' western bits (free speech, satirical cartoons, democracy, alcohol, pork etc etc) are an insult to their 'pure islamic values' and rouse their self-righteous anger. Burning a few cars or foreign embassies is a perfectly legitimate method of venting this anger at 'The West'.
I can see you sympathise with them - because your spin is that its caused by 'racism'.
What an attitude!
If we don't get our way, we'll burn your streets.
Religion of Peace? You're having a laugh!

The Chinease communities in Europe don't integrate either, but they live a parallel life without imposing their beliefs on their neighbours.

Yes, and they're welcomed for that. They offer some value to the society they live in because they are generally hardworking and make nice food. They keep their disputes among themselves generally speaking. Haven't seen them burning the streets because they didn't like how they are treated. They just get on with it and succeed by hard work.

Victor

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

I'm not explaining anything away! I gave you a straight answer - YOU refers to ALL muslims.
If we were talking about ALL Christians here I'd use the same term. Its a collective noun. Does Political Correctness now forbid the use of the word YOU?

No, I'd go for common sense. You are putting the sins of a billion people on a couple of individuals. That is being a bigot.

Franz Ferdinand

You are putting the sins of a billion people on a couple of individuals.

I think you've got that the wrong way round, haven't you?

Hobbes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

I think you've got that the wrong way round, haven't you?

I don't think he has. Do the math.

Really most of the stuff you have been spouting has been debunked a long long time ago on boards. But hey someone repeating the same crap over again is nothing new.

To go back to the OP question. Could Ireland be a target? It is certainly possible. It is really dependent of how much interaction we are doing in the Middle East.

Terrorism is not an intregal part of Islam. Terrorism comes about from desperation where normal methods do not work. The word itself is subjective. I mean we have "Muslim Terrorists" yet we have also had "Irish freedom fighters" or further back "French Resistance".

It is possible to understand why someone may resort to these methods without agreeing with them.

Anyway the only way you can deal with terrorism is to remove the situations which would drive someone to join the terrorists. That isn't Islam otherwise we would be at war with every Islamic country.

Take the IRA for example. They only got serious support when civil rights of Catholics were abused. We saw the outcome of the UK fighting them directly for 20 years.

Any Irish person who seems to think that Muslim extremists are reflective of the whole Muslim population has probably never lived through the troubles.

wes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

The responses in this thread are becoming voluminous in length thanks to this sort of babbling. That sure gets boring. Rather than respond to Wes's numerous denials of what he said or didn't say I'll just move on - we'll be here all night otherwise.

You can't read my post properly. You keep saying, I said things I never did. I keep mentioning it since, you keep doing it. This will stop when you stop doing it. I don't see why I shouldn't call you on the bull****, you keep saying I said. I am hardly babbling, your own inability to comprehend what I am saying is the issue. Honestly, at this point its very clear you keep doing this and I will call you on it.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Hmmm - if that's the case, tell me, why do British muslims become quite so extremely agitated about what happens to muslims in Palestine or Iraq? Why do 'educated' 'westernised' muslims feel moved to blow themselves (and innocent people) to bits over what happens in Iraq?
To a simple minded westerner you seem overly preoccupied with one-anothers problems, to the extent of comitting mass murder when you feel upset enough about something going on thousands of miles away.
We both know whats really going on Wes. The muslim concept of 'Ummah' means that while there may be petty differences - when it comes down to it the whole muslim UMMAH will act collectively to attack anyone or anything you see as a threat to the collective.

I would say the Western World has been BETTER at Imperialism than the Muslim Empire. That is where a good part of this resentment comes from. The Jihadists still dream of retaking Al Andalus, but you'll never do it again the way it was done in 700AD.

Also, Muslims caring about each other despite there differences, doesn't mean there differences don't exist. So they do matter, since Muslims are all not the same. You are trying to present that Muslims are all the same continually in your posts. This is untrue.

Osama and Al Qaeda want to conquer Spain, we all know there nuts already.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Your point being?

I was replying to your question :rolleyes: .

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Why don't your Algerian cousins consider doing so too?

Could it be that they know the life style and living standards they have in France are light years ahead of what they'll find if they move back to Algeria where they came from?
Certainly it is!

The truth is - these rioters (or scum as Mr.Sarkozy rightly labelled them) want it all their way. All the 'good' western bits can remain (free medical care, clean cities, reliable electricity supplies, clean water etc) but all those 'bad' western bits (free speech, satirical cartoons, democracy, alcohol, pork etc etc) are an insult to their 'pure islamic values' and rouse their self-righteous anger. Burning a few cars or foreign embassies is a perfectly legitimate method of venting this anger at 'The West'.

Its not my spin, I am saying the 'racism', which exists shows that the French, never wanted them there to begin with, and steps were not taken on either side for integration. I lot of blame rests with the immigrant communities as well as the host. The facts bear this out. Nice of you to ignore where I say that Muslim communities, in these place didn't make enough effort to integrate.

You once again are trying to simplify it and make it 'religious' issue, since it fits in with your world view. The only spin here is yours, trying to ignore huge factors to the problems in France. There is racism, neither side bothered with integration or even considered it at all. Again, ignore the facts and try and pigeon hole a complex situation into your world view. Most of what you say here is hyperbole again.

Anyway this has gotten beyond silly and I am done, we will probably go around in a endless circle, I think we can agree with that much at least.

irish_bob

im glad to see that i am not alone in my view that ireland needs to take measures so as to ensure we dont end up with the same problems that other european countries do with thier muslim population

thank you franz ferdinand

Franz Ferdinand

Really most of the stuff you have been spouting has been debunked a long long time ago on boards.

Debunked huh? Well then, I guess thats me shot down in flames.:rolleyes:
Terribly sorry, but I'm new around here, so it seems you'll just have to do your 'debunking' all over again. Bummer, eh?

Terrorism is not an intregal part of Islam.

Hmmm...well, I could certainly argue that one for days!
Read any history of Muhammed?
He lived as a brigand, and you could call him a terrorist of his day.
But its good to see we no longer entirely swallow the old 'religion of peace' mantra. Now it's the religion of 'not essentially terrorist in nature'.....

Terrorism comes about from desperation where normal methods do not work. The word itself is subjective. I mean we have "Muslim Terrorists" yet we have also had "Irish freedom fighters" or further back "French Resistance".

Sounds to me like you're an apologist! Have any of your family or friends been murdered by jihadists? If they were, would you still feel the same way?
What guilt do your family carry that justifies their indiscriminate murder by jihadists? Being 'Western'?
I'm not prepared to see my family slaughtered just to make a political point for some crazed muslims.

It is possible to understand why someone may resort to these methods without agreeing with them.

No doubt. The same way one can understand why a hungry crocodile might devour a helpless child. So what! Would you stand and watch?

Anyway the only way you can deal with terrorism is to remove the situations which would drive someone to join the terrorists. That isn't Islam otherwise we would be at war with every Islamic country.

Right - and this would mean, for instance, handing back 'Al Andalus' to Osama perhaps? And what about Israel. That would have to be 'wiped off the map' too, eh?
Sorry, not practical.

Take the IRA for example. They only got serious support when civil rights of Catholics were abused. We saw the outcome of the UK fighting them directly for 20 years. Any Irish person who seems to think that Muslim extremists are reflective of the whole Muslim population has probably never lived through the troubles.

It really annoys me when I hear this kind of nonsense, because comparing the IRA - an organisation with limited and essentially realisable finite goals - to the global jihad on the West, is truly a symptom of 'not really getting it'.

Even if you obliterated Israel, and handed Spain back to Osama, the demands would not end.

The real 'end' is a 'Global Caliphate' under Sharia Law.

If you want to live like that - well, all I can say is good luck, I don't.

You can't read my post properly. You keep saying, I said things I never did. I keep mentioning it since, you keep doing it. This will stop when you stop doing it. I don't see why I shouldn't call you on the bull****, you keep saying I said. I am hardly babbling, your own inability to comprehend what I am saying is the issue. Honestly, at this point its very clear you keep doing this and I will call you on it.

You just can't leave it alone, can you.

You are trying to present that Muslims are all the same continually in your posts.

Not uniformly the same. But apparently uniform in their vision of their Global Ummah.

Nice of you to ignore where I say that Muslim communities, in these place didn't make enough effort to integrate.

Well its nice of you to admit that. But where does that leave us?

You once again are trying to simplify it and make it 'religious' issue, since it fits in with your world view. The only spin here is yours, trying to ignore huge factors to the problems in France. There is racism, neither side bothered with integration or even considered it at all.

Look, its not just in France. French people can be a pain in the ass, I should know. But even the bloody Dutch, who've bent over backwards to be open minded (as ever) have been rewarded by muslims murdering people in the street for 'insulting islam' and by huge protests, not for peace, but demanding ever more special treatment from Dutch society.
The Danes are sufferring in the same fashion. Being told by muslims how to run the show in their own country.

HelterSkelter

Lads, there is no point in debating with franz. I get the feeling he is just trying to wind you all up. Even if this is not the case, he is so bigoted you will never change his mind. He is best ignored.

irish_bob

HelterSkelter wrote:

Lads, there is no point in debating with franz. I get the feeling he is just trying to wind you all up. Even if this is not the case, he is so bigoted you will never change his mind. He is best ignored.

you dont agree with the sentiments of an extremley articulate presentation so you revert to cheap shots by calling him a bigot
what has he said thats bigoted anyway , muslims are carrying out suicide bombings in iraq that kill almost a hundred on a daily basis and they try to do the same in london and elsewhere , how is he supposed to debate this reality
is he meant to tip toe around the fact that thier are muslims involved just so as to avoid hurting muslims who are in here , not to mention politically correct thought police members like you

BigEejit

irish_bob wrote:

you dont agree with the sentiments of an extremley articulate presentation so you revert to cheap shots by calling him a bigot
what has he said thats bigoted anyway , muslims are carrying out suicide bombings in iraq that kill almost a hundred on a daily basis and they try to do the same in london and elsewhere , how is he supposed to debate this reality
is he meant to tip toe around the fact that thier are muslims involved just so as to avoid hurting muslims who are in here , not to mention politically correct thought police members like you

The only way to discuss crime is to talk about the people involved directly. In the UK, for the last couple of decades the police had been stopped from detailing which race was involved in any given stabbing or shooting. They have found that this policy has been counter productive as the black community (who gave out about police mentioning race in crime and got the ban on race being mentioned in the first place) now accounts for some 90% of all fatal stabbings and the majority of gun fatalities in London. They now say the race of the victim and the aggressor in the news in an attempt to get the black community to try and police themselves (parents stopping their children from getting involved in gangs for example)

By trying to get us to discuss terrorist attacks in western Europe without mentioning Muslims so we dont risk being called bigots is ridiculous. We need to face facts, atrocities comitted by muslims for whatever reason need to be discussed openly. Stop calling people bigots.

Bottle_of_Smoke

irish_bob wrote:

you dont agree with the sentiments of an extremley articulate presentation so you revert to cheap shots by calling him a bigot
what has he said thats bigoted anyway , muslims are carrying out suicide bombings in iraq that kill almost a hundred on a daily basis and they try to do the same in london and elsewhere , how is he supposed to debate this reality
is he meant to tip toe around the fact that thier are muslims involved just so as to avoid hurting muslims who are in here , not to mention politically correct thought police members like you

How many Iraqi innocent men women & children have been killed by the actions of American troops? Get some perspective.

Your "almost a hundred a day from suicide bombers" is also a huge exaggeration.

I didn't notice anything articulate about Franz Ferdinand. Or the posts of a boards.ie user of the same name.

Also as far as I know Osama would be happy with Americans unoccupying Muslim lands. Don't think Spain is critical.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

It really annoys me when I hear this kind of nonsense, because comparing the IRA - an organisation with limited and essentially realisable finite goals - to the global jihad on the West, is truly a symptom of 'not really getting it'.

Jihad can be described as a struggle, it's not quite the Holy War it's made out to be. Although global Islamification may be a goal of a lot of Muslims it's not something even an Islamic terrorist would fly into a building over.

If the West didn't occupy Muslim lands, if the Israel/Paslistine conflict didn't exist, there would be no Al-Qaeda. Doesn't neccesarily mean the West should agree to this but it doesn't deem it untrue.

Coming back to global Islamification being a goal of a lot of Muslims, I mean it in the sense that they want the world to be that way because they beliueve that's the right way. The same way it's a goal for LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of Born Again Christians for everyone to be saved by Jesus.

So, while it's possible many Catholic IRA men wanted everyone else to be Catholic, they only got violent because they were being repressed.

There's a lot of opinion assumage going on in this thread so please don't infer that I support Bin Laden or the IRA, can almost visualise the responses.

Before you pull the Muslim apologist card I'm an Athiest who believes secularism is the way to go.

Victor

BigEejit wrote:

By trying to get us to discuss terrorist attacks in western Europe without mentioning Muslims so we dont risk being called bigots is ridiculous. We need to face facts, atrocities comitted by muslims for whatever reason need to be discussed openly. Stop calling people bigots.

lol

Are you saying, its OK to brand all Muslims as violent, but its not OK to call a bigot a bigot?

Terry

Bottle of smoke kind of hit the nail on the head there.

Some muslims do believe that one day the entire world will follow the islamic faith.
You may think that they are deluded, but then you have to take into account the fact that they believe in a supernatural being. (off to the religious forums with you if you are offended by that statement). There was a guy working in the local Indian restaurant who told me such. It was his belief too. Then he got pneumonia, had a heart attack and died. Where's your god now?
Some of these muslims are willing to go to extreme lengths to see that the whole world does eventually follow the teachings of the guy whose picture you can't see.
They are deluded enough to believe that others will be bombed into submission and that they will get their 40 virgins in heaven. (someone needs to tell them that they can only score with each of the virgins once).

On the flip side, the americans seem to believe that they too can bomb people into submission and enforce their will on a part of the world that is not yet ready for it.

Conclusion: People are idiots.

BigEejit

Victor wrote:

lol

Are you saying, its OK to brand all Muslims as violent, but its not OK to call a bigot a bigot?

Spot the guy who completely missed the point.

No I am not going to start talking baby english just for you.

BigEejit

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

How many Iraqi innocent men women & children have been killed by the actions of American troops? Get some perspective.

Your "almost a hundred a day from suicide bombers" is also a huge exaggeration.

I would ask you to look at this article in the International Herald Tribune that shows the UN and the iraqi government is showing 100 deaths daily, almost all of it Shia versus Sunni (and vice versa). There is bound to be some gung ho American soldier shooting what he thought was a milita gunman about to kill him when it fact it was a civilian, but the report is showing that almost all the deaths in the region are different muslim factions fighting/assinating each other.