British terrorist threat - Is it only a matter of time here?

BigEejit

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

I see.
When you say 'heirarchical structures' are you referring to "The Holy Koran"?
I would've thought that - along with the Haditha - The Koran is not merely a 'heirarchical structure' but rather THE central element of the Islamic religion.

Please explain your point.
Are you saying Muslims can be 'A La Carte' with the Koran and the Haditha?

I would have thought that when he said hierarchical structures he was referring to Pope -> Cardinals -> etc etc.

Franz Ferdinand

Perhaps. Was that a Red Herring then to distract from the obvious point of the question?

The point being (must I spell it out?) that if WES says he is a Muslim but he 'doesn't believe in stoning' as a punishment - he is being an A La Carte Muslim.
He is not rejecting some heirarchical triviality here, but a central element of his Islamic religious doctrine, as specified directly through the Koran and the Haditha. Lets face it, Sharia Law is already operated in many Islamic countries as the normal means of handling crime and punishment, so this is not some 'extremist anti-muslim' invention.

Stoning is part of his religion in its purest form, and it doesn't stop there.

BigEejit

I know I am going to be classed as bigoted, but then i travel on the tube every day and so this subject weights heavily on my mind now and again. Just say this quote from the New York Sun, I dont know if this is regarded as being better or worse than the UK/Ireland version but they had this to say:

From the New York Sun

The latest batch of attacks by Islamic terrorists raised fresh concerns among Muslims over what they fear may be "heinous attempts" to link terror with Islam.

British Muslims, who number 1.6 million, are reportedly funding advertising campaigns across Britain that proclaim Islam is "the religion of peace" — in the process also implicitly warning fellow Britons against criticizing their faith.

Yet a year ago, a weighty Muslim writer and pundit, Abdelrahman Al Rashed, manager of the pan-Arab TV network Al-Arabiya Television, famously launched a stormy debate when he opined, "While all Muslims are not terrorists, all terrorists are now Muslims."

Ever since, the question among Muslim scholars and activists is precisely how much of the terror inspired by Islam is due to the faith itself — and how much is due to the way it is being preached.

Clearly, the issue is enormously delicate, fraught with the pitfalls of prejudice and all sorts of other sensitivities.

But as hundreds of thousands of people from New York to Baghdad are butchered under Islam's banners, failing to tackle it head-on is unacceptable.

wes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Perhaps. Was that a Red Herring then to distract from the obvious point of the question?

The point being (must I spell it out?) that if WES says he is a Muslim but he 'doesn't believe in stoning' as a punishment - he is being an A La Carte Muslim.
He is not rejecting some heirarchical triviality here, but a central element of his Islamic religious doctrine, as specified directly through the Koran and the Haditha. Lets face it, Sharia Law is already operated in many Islamic countries as the normal means of handling crime and punishment, so this is not some 'extremist anti-muslim' invention.

Stoning is part of his religion in its purest form, and it doesn't stop there.

Its Hadith firstly. The Koran says lots of things and there a lots of interpretations of the Koran. So to say that anyones interpretation is the de facto one would be wrong.

Your suggestion that I am somehow less of a Muslim is ridiculous. This is the kind of rubbish Qutbist spew.

HelterSkelter

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Sharia Law is already operated in many Islamic countries as the normal means of handling crime and punishment, so this is not some 'extremist anti-muslim' invention.

Stoning is part of his religion in its purest form, and it doesn't stop there.

Sharia Law doesn't necessarly have to include stoning to death, it is practised to different degrees in different countries. Some Muslims in the discussion said stoning is not mentioned in the Qur'an at all. So how can you then say "Stoning is part of his religion in its purest form"??

HelterSkelter

BigEejit wrote:

I was putting in the link to information about the Jihad just so people with agendas (/me looks at your sig -> www.boycottisrael.co.uk) make it out that Jihad is something unrelated to bombings.

Well I didn't go for your bait

BigEejit wrote:

As for the anti-islamic website (/me has another look at your sig) there was a clear link at the top of the page to the Times. I suppose the Times is anti-islamic now as well?

I have no idea what the agenda of the Times is, but I know jihadwatch is anti-Ismalic

BigEejit wrote:

You're making it out that it just one crackpot in yorkshire that praised it ... how many imam's praised the bombings in their sermons and no-one blew the whistle.

I am not saying that there are millions of budding suicide bombers in western Europe, but if you are saying that there are none you are in cloud cukoo land.

Not at all, I know there are quite a few crackpots. I just feel you are making out the crackpots are the majority.

Galvasean

I remember watching on the news when Al Qaeda had taken some Irish guy prisoner they let him go because in their words, "We identify with the Irish people for they too have been struggling against foreign oppresors for many years."
I really don't know how to feel about that...

Fratton Fred

Galvasean wrote:

I remember watching on the news when Al Qaeda had taken some Irish guy prisoner they let him go because in their words, "We identify with the Irish people for they too have been struggling against foreign oppresors for many years."
I really don't know how to feel about that...

He probably taught them the right way to make a fertiliser bomb

Franz Ferdinand

wes wrote:

Its Hadith firstly. The Koran says lots of things and there a lots of interpretations of the Koran. So to say that anyones interpretation is the de facto one would be wrong.

Sounds like the very definition of A La Cartism to me! Take your pick and make your own interpretations then, Allah knows best, eh?

With no 'heirarchy' to lead the way this is why Islam is so lost.

Your suggestion that I am somehow less of a Muslim is ridiculous. This is the kind of rubbish Qutbist spew.

Well don't take it personally, it isn't directed at you alone but at all the followers of Muhammed, who are unable to agree exactly what their religion actually means or demands of them. Do you speak and read Arabic BTW?

Helterskelter wrote:

Not at all, I know there are quite a few crackpots. I just feel you are making out the crackpots are the majority.

Here is an extract from A London Telegraph article, it quotes some facts from an actual survey.

One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists
.....A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.....six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified.
Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml
(London Telegraph)

So much for 'the religion of peace' crap. :mad:

HelterSkelter

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Here is an extract from A London Telegraph article, it quotes some facts from an actual survey.

One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists
.....A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.....six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified.
Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...23/npoll23.xml
(London Telegraph)

I can also understand why some people might want to behave in this way, in the same way I could understand why the IRA bombed the UK, although in both cases I do not agree with their actions.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

So much for 'the religion of peace' crap. :mad:

Well as for the 6 percent they are going against the teachings of Islam. You are not allowed to kill innocent people. You can't blame a religion on the action of some of it's followers.

HelterSkelter

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Sounds like the very definition of A La Cartism to me! Take your pick and make your own interpretations then, Allah knows best, eh?

A Muslim friend told me if you want to know if something is write or wrong you firstly consult the Qur'an. If you can't find the answer there, you look at the examples set by Muhammed in his life, if you can't find the answer there you look to a scholar for an answer, if you can't find the answer there you do what you think is right in your own mind. This seems like a logical approach to me.

BigEejit

HelterSkelter wrote:

A Muslim friend told me if you want to know if something is write or wrong you firstly consult the Qur'an. If you can't find the answer there, you look at the examples set by Muhammed in his life, if you can't find the answer there you look to a scholar for an answer, if you can't find the answer there you do what you think is right in your own mind. This seems like a logical approach to me.

Sounds great on paper, but it has a gaping flaw ....
->Look to a scholar for an answer<-

Entrance stage right, one foaming at the mouth lunatic Muslim Cleric

wes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Sounds like the very definition of A La Cartism to me! Take your pick and make your own interpretations then, Allah knows best, eh?

With no 'heirarchy' to lead the way this is why Islam is so lost.

Well don't take it personally, it isn't directed at you alone but at all the followers of Muhammed, who are unable to agree exactly what their religion actually means or demands of them. Do you speak and read Arabic BTW?

Theres hardly a religion on this earth that can agree on what they believe. I don't speak Arabic btw. Anyway regardless, my original point was that a poster was misrepresenting what posters in the Islam forum had said (or to be more accurate out and out making stuff up), this included me and I pointed out it was bull.

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Here is an extract from A London Telegraph article, it quotes some facts from an actual survey.


So much for 'the religion of peace' crap. :mad:

Plenty of polls out there that make a lot of people look really dumb. They can also be easily be manipulated. Here are some links:


http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/05/22/polls/index.html


http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/05/23/polls/index.html

There is analysis on some polls and show how easy it is to get a significant number of people to agree with some dumb things on polls.

HelterSkelter

wes wrote:

Plenty of polls out there that make a lot of people look really dumb. They can also be easily be manipulated. Here are some links:


http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/05/22/polls/index.html

There is analysis on some polls and show how easy it is to get a significant number of people to agree with some dumb things on polls.

Very interesting, thanks for that.

I have never heard of such a poll being conducted of Irish people but if you take the number of people who chant Sinn Fein/IRA everytime you hear people sing Fields of Athenry you would think that there is a very high percentage of Irish terrorists just waiting for their chance to bomb the crap out of the UK. In reality these people would never think of doing anything like that.

Franz Ferdinand

I have never heard of such a poll being conducted of Irish people but if you take the number of people who chant Sinn Fein/IRA everytime you hear people sing Fields of Athenry you would think that there is a very high percentage of Irish terrorists just waiting for their chance to bomb the crap out of the UK. In reality these people would never think of doing anything like that.

I never said there weren't! Thats not the point, is it?

The point IS that you said muslims don't behave that way - but we can see from the surveys that you are being rather disingenious with that assertion!

Well as for the 6 percent they are going against the teachings of Islam. You are not allowed to kill innocent people. You can't blame a religion on the action of some of it's followers.

I've listened to the comments of these 'hard-liners' on TV. Their assertion is that 'you are not innocent if you are part of the West'. Man, Woman, or Child - in their eyes, you are guilty of persecuting muslims even if you never met one. You are part of the West, therefore you are not innocent, and 'martyredom' actions against Western targets are not 'killing' but a blessed act of Jihad. This attitude is encouraged by the words of their Immams, and the philosophy of violent Jihad taught by muhammed in the Koran.

This is Islam. We see it on TV every night.

Plenty of polls out there that make a lot of people look really dumb. They can also be easily be manipulated.

If the polls were conducted by 'Islam Watch' or 'Memri' I might agree with you. But these polls were conducted by reputable research companies for reputable newspapers. Are you saying they are all out to attack Islam? More paranoia?
Show me some muslim polls of your own if you like - something saying how many muslims agree with 'martyredom' operations for instance? Lets see your evidence to refute mine.

I don't speak Arabic btw.

I asked you that question because whenever I have debated with muslims on their hardcore sites, any question about the nasty bits of the Koran is usually dismissed as a 'misinterpretation' of the true Arabic meaning, and that one cannot understand the Koran properly unless it is read in the native Arabic.
This means to me that any 'muslim' who does not speak Arabic does not in fact know their religion, or understand the Koran. So, how can you speak here for a religion you admit you cannot understand?

Another poll on the Telegraph site shows that 40% of British muslims want the country run under Sharia law (stoning!) and 25% of British muslims believe the 7/7 bombings were staged by the British security services! In Denial or what!

HelterSkelter

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

If the polls were conducted by 'Islam Watch' or 'Memri' I might agree with you. But these polls were conducted by reputable research companies for reputable newspapers. Are you saying they are all out to attack Islam? More paranoia?

Did you even read that site he linked to before writing that comment?

HelterSkelter

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

I never said there weren't! Thats not the point, is it?

The point is that there is a high percentage of Irish people who are(were) in favour of terrorist attacks against the UK when they felt under attack from the Brits. Do you remember the British Embassy in Dublin being burnt to the ground after Bloody Sunday?

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

The point IS that you said muslims don't behave that way - but we can see from the surveys that you are being rather disingenious with that assertion!

I did not say that, I said the vast majority of muslims are peaceful people. You are trying to tar all muslims with the one terrorist brush

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

I've listened to the comments of these 'hard-liners' on TV. Their assertion is that 'you are not innocent if you are part of the West'. Man, Woman, or Child - in their eyes, you are guilty of persecuting muslims even if you never met one. You are part of the West, therefore you are not innocent, and 'martyredom' actions against Western targets are not 'killing' but a blessed act of Jihad. This attitude is encouraged by the words of their Immams, and the philosophy of violent Jihad taught by muhammed in the Koran.

This is Islam. We see it on TV every night.

What stations are you watching? These hardliners are hand picked. I am not saying that the media are anti-Muslim, I am saying that they are after a sensational story and these guys give them exactly that. Why are they not interviewing the Muslims who do not support terrorism? Why do anti-terror protests by Muslims (such as the ones after 7/July bombings) get such little coverage?

Franz Ferdinand

The point is that there is a high percentage of Irish people who are(were) in favour of terrorist attacks against the UK when they felt under attack from the Brits. Do you remember the British Embassy in Dublin being burnt to the ground after Bloody Sunday?

That's history. We're talking about the present now. Nice try though.

I did not say that, I said the vast majority of muslims are peaceful people. You are trying to tar all muslims with the one terrorist brush

Hehehe - naughty! I didn't say the "vast majority" of muslims were not peaceful! I did show evidence however to prove that a very large element believe in killing for Islam, would aid or support a Jihadi, believe in Sharia punishment, and consider the British State to have framed them on 7/7. Quite a roll call!

Why are they not interviewing the Muslims who do not support terrorism?

Maybe they can't find any!

Why do anti-terror protests by Muslims (such as the ones after 7/July bombings) get such little coverage?

Because there aren't any?

Besides, I've yet to see a 'peaceful' muslim interviewed about the latest Jihadi atrocity which hasn't gone as follows...."We condemn this action totally, Islam is a peaceful religion, but on the other hand you must understand how muslims are being - - - - - - - - - -" (fill in the blanks as follows: *Persecuted/*Insulted/*Angered/*Abused/*Ignored/*Mistreated/ etc etc etc)


Hey - the guy in this picture - does he mean me??
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00094/islam1_94395a.jpg

Galvasean

Reminds me of the guy in the Celtic jersey holding the sign "Foreign Games Out!"

HelterSkelter

Franz Ferdinand, put your cards on the table and state exactly what point you are trying to make here. And what is the solution to the problem you are trying to make in your point.

HelterSkelter

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Why do anti-terror protests by Muslims (such as the ones after 7/July bombings) get such little coverage?

Maybe they can't find any!
Because there aren't any?

Besides, I've yet to see a 'peaceful' muslim interviewed about the latest Jihadi atrocity which hasn't gone as follows...."We condemn this action totally, Islam is a peaceful religion, but on the other hand you must understand how muslims are being - - - - - - - - - -" (fill in the blanks as follows: *Persecuted/*Insulted/*Angered/*Abused/*Ignored/*Mistreated/ etc etc etc)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6279416.stm

Hundreds attend anti-terror rally

About 1,500 people have taken part in a rally against terrorism in Glasgow, organised by mosques and Islamic groups.

It comes a week after a car burst into flames after being driven into the terminal building at Glasgow airport.

Organisers said: "The eyes of the world will be on a Scotland sending out the message that all our communities are united against terrorism."

Police also said thousands took part in the city's County Grand Orange Parade.

Orange Lodge parades took place across the city, before marchers joined the main procession at Blythswood Square.

'Community cohesion'

Meanwhile, the "Scotland United Against Terror" event was held in George Square.

Organisers said the day was doubly significant as it was the second anniversary of the London Tube bombings and one week after the Glasgow attack.

Faith leaders, churches and trade unionists were among those at the event, and Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon spoke to the crowd.

Osama Saeed, one of the organisers, said: "We've been staggered by the messages of support we've been getting this week from the four corners of the globe.

"We thought on a local level we'd get together and do this to allow the grassroots to display their anger at the attacks, little realising nothing like this had ever been done before anywhere else before.

"The eyes of the world will be on a Scotland sending out the message that all our communities are united against terrorism.

"The Muslim community have called this event, but what's touching is how the rest of the country has responded to us."

Safa Yousaf, 18, from Glasgow, said she wanted people from all of Scotland's communities to attend the rally.

She said: "We are here today to show what true Muslims represent.

"Terrorists who commit acts like September 11 or 7/7 are not real Muslims - we are."

Afsal Rashid, 70, said it was a good sign that people from all sections of society had turned up to the rally.

He added: "I came along to raise my voice against terrorism. I am against killing innocent people.

"You can only try to raise your voice and maybe this is one way to make it heard."

Fuad Warsame, 18, from Somalia, arrived in Glasgow 18 months ago.

He said: "I came here to say 'no' to terrorism anywhere in the world because terrorists are not killing one particular kind of person they are disturbing the lives of everybody."

Mohamed Negm, 25, from Berkshire only moved to Glasgow recently.

He said: "One thing that struck me about coming up to Scotland was the cohesion in the community.

"People who are using religion for terrorism can create confusion for society, and events like this can go some way to minimising that."

wes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

I asked you that question because whenever I have debated with muslims on their hardcore sites, any question about the nasty bits of the Koran is usually dismissed as a 'misinterpretation' of the true Arabic meaning, and that one cannot understand the Koran properly unless it is read in the native Arabic.
This means to me that any 'muslim' who does not speak Arabic does not in fact know their religion, or understand the Koran. So, how can you speak here for a religion you admit you cannot understand?

I can read multiple interpretations and translations and that way I can get a pretty good understanding of it.

Btw, I do understand my religion. I never said I didn't understand it, just that I can't speak Arabic. Nice try with the straw man, but they don't work on me. Thats your train of taught not mine. Also I can't speak for a religion just my understanding of it, odd again I never said I represent Islam, just my interpretation of it.

So what your saying here is bull, its what you said and not what I said. You understand that right? I never said that. Do I need to be more clear? Do you have trouble reading my posts or something? If you do, just say so.

I know, I over did the bold characters there, but its seems you have so much trouble understanding what I am saying and would rather come up with straw man arguments.

Franz Ferdinand

The title of this thread is: "British terrorist threat - Is it only a matter of time here?"
Thats what we're discussing, did you forget my friend?

My belief is that, yes, unfortunately it is only a matter of time until there is an Islamic terrorist atrocity in this country. I've explained WHY I think this will happen.
What more do you want me to say?

My solution?
Well its probably too late already.
Nevertheless we need to stop Turkey from joining the EU for starters.

Regarding peace rallies. I think you need more than one rally attended by a few hundred people to really make an impression here. I think maybe you need something more like the organised round-the-world embassy burnings and rioting (only without the rioting and burning) that we got for the Muhammed cartoons, or Rushdies knight-hood.
At least they showed some real comittment.

Meanwhile, a Google search turned up these little nuggets.
Muslim Peace Rally Turns Ugly (fascinating Youtube Video)
Magic Statistics Blog: What really happened at Muslim Peace Rally (must read!)

By the way, any of you happen to know the whereabouts of that Irish muslim convert who used to hang out on Grafton Street in full mufti (flowing ginger beard and all, haha) haraguing the shoppers about the coming Jihad and stuffing Jihadi pamphlets into the faces of passersby?
Is he still in Ireland? Or is he in Pakistan, getting some AK training?
I think his name was Kelly.
Mustapha Kelly? Osama Kelly? Something like that....

And HEY! I just read that quote again about your 'peace march'.
He said: "I came here to say 'no' to tourism anywhere in the world because tourists are disturbing the lives of everybody."
Man, I couldn't agree more! I hate Tourists too!

Salaam Brother.

Franz Ferdinand

wes wrote:

I can read multiple interpretations and translations and that way I can get a pretty good understanding of it.

Funny, when I tried that angle they didn't buy it.
I think you need to learn Arabic double quick my friend, otherwise you lack credibility with the Jihadis!

Also I can't speak for a religion just my understanding of it, odd again I never said I represent Islam, just my interpretation of it.

More A La Carte Islam?

So what your saying here is bull, its what you said and not what I said. You understand that right? I never said that. Do I need to be more clear? Do you have trouble reading my posts or something? If you do, just say so.

Whatever dude.

I know, I over did the bold characters there, but its seems you have so much trouble understanding what I am saying and would rather come up with straw man arguments.

Seems to me you have little to SAY but plenty to ARGUE over.
Why is that so familiar?

wes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Funny, when I tried that angle they didn't buy it.
I think you need to learn Arabic double quick my friend, you have no credibility!

More A La Carte Islam?

Whatever dude.

Seems to me you have little to SAY but plenty to ARGUE over.
Why is that so familiar?

Again you have nothing to say. You misrepresented what I said, I called you on it. You aren't saying anything at all at this point. Your just accusing me of saying this and that, when I clearly didn't. You keep misrepresenting what I said, you do so again here.

Ad hominem attacks and straw men all the way. Good try man, its very clear to see what you trying to do, its not working very well. I am done with going around with pointless circles with you consistently mis-representing me.

Franz Ferdinand

Yay.
I win.

wes

Franz Ferdinand wrote:

Yay.
I win.

You won the argument with the imaginary man in your head, who you pretended to be me. If you call that a win, go for it!

BigEejit

wes wrote:

You won the argument with the imaginary man in your head, who you pretended to be me. If you call that a win, go for it!

You could say that the imaginary man in your head* was the loser in this ...... er .... discussion.




(*Allah/God/Yaweh/Buddah etc etc etc)

wes

BigEejit wrote:

You could say that the imaginary man in your head* was the loser in this ...... er .... discussion.

[sarcasm]How clever of you :rolleyes: .[/sarcasm]

I was not engaged in much of discussion, the other user felt like he needed to misrepresent what I said, I called his BS. Nice of you to chime in however, really you added so much to the "discussion" of another poster doing his utmost to make it out I said some stuff, I didn't.

dlofnep

No, Ireland is fine and always will be. We're not imperialists and won't ever be touched. Ireland is respected by many middle-eastern countries for it's long wars against imperialism.

Iran has a street named Bobby Sands Street out of respect in Tehran. There is also the the palestine/irish soladarity movement. Trust me, they all understand the difference between Ireland and Britain.