The poppy

brianthebard

Diorraing wrote:

Why would I? I don't think the Kaiser had any great plans for Ireland. WW1 was one of the most needless wars ever fought: it was not a war of good v evil as WW2 was.

Ahem I think you will find the same sort of overly complicated treaty systems existing in WW2 just like those of ww1. The Kaiser didn't have any great plans for any of the countries that Germany was fighting in the first place imo.

It wasn't a war of liberation, but a war sparked off by an overly complicated treaty system and the chain reaction which followed Arch-duke Ferdinand's Assasination. If I am to remember someone who fought and died, I like to remember the reasons they gave their lives: for instance those who died in the 1798 rebellion, the American War of Independence, WW2 etc.
Unfortunately WW1 does not fall within those "just wars" - I will not remember those who sought to protect the imperialistic asperations of the European powers during WW1

There seems to be a prevailing myth that all or the majority of soldiers fighting in WW1 were mad nationalist types fighting to defend the honour of their nation and ruler with the intent of claiming lands from neighbours. Its simply not the case. The majority of people fighting were peasants, who really didn't care about the treaty system in place. There is no feasible way you can equate fighting in the first world war with actively trying to protect imperialist regiemes. Take those Irish who fought in ww1, many did so for their own country, not for britain.

And finally there is no such thing as a just war- and if there were, ww2 would certainly not fit the category.

Fratton Fred

I'm English so I will undoubtedly have a different view on this to a lot of people here.

I have been to cemetries and memorials in France, Belgium and Thailand, trust me, there is no glorification of war at those places, there is no distinction between British, Irish, Canadian, ANZAC, they are very solemn places that serve solely to remember the dead and to signify the futility of war.

As was clearly stated earlier, the money raised from Poppies sold in Ireland goes towards Irish ex-servicemen, where is the problem in this?

The only people in the world who seem to consider the Poppy to be the symbol of the British army must be the Irish, pretty much everyone else sees it for what it is, a reminder of all those people who have died in conflict.

Diorraing

brianthebard wrote:

And finally there is no such thing as a just war- and if there were, ww2 would certainly not fit the category.

Oh, so fighting against the tyranny of the Nazis did not constitute a just war? Ending the holocaust by the only means possible was not just?

brianthebard

How can it be considered a just war considering the amount of innocent German civilians that were killed? If you are going to appeal to the holocaust you should at least know that before the war had turned bad for Germany they were following a policy of emirgration for the jews. It was because of the war that the genocide happened. I'm not excusing it but they are the facts. To consider ww2 to be a just war because it was against the "tyrannical nazis" is far too simplistic and ignores all causes of the war. It ignores the general policy of apathy by the other european powers at the time and it ignores the outcome of ww1 as one of the principle causes of ww2. It ignores the war guilt cause and it also ignores the widespread anti-semitism in Europe at the time. Furthermore it ignores the fact that many countries, such as France and Croatia willingly sent their jewish population (or part of it) to German concentration camps at the request of Hitler. I could go on but I think I've made my point.

super_furry

I've worn a poppy in the past and will do so again. My grandfather died during the second World War in India.

The Legion also do some great work. My father - who's English - never met his father who died before he was born in the Battle on Imphal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Imphal) in India. It took years to find out where he was actually buried and without the Legion it would have been impossible. Not only did they help find his grave, but they organised a trip to Imphal where veterans and family members were able to go and pay their respect, so my father finally got to visit his father's grave.

None of this would have been possible without the Legion and because of their brilliant work and because of what my grandfather did, I'm proud to wear a poppy.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote:

How can it be considered a just war considering the amount of innocent German civilians that were killed? If you are going to appeal to the holocaust you should at least know that before the war had turned bad for Germany they were following a policy of emirgration for the jews. It was because of the war that the genocide happened. I'm not excusing it but they are the facts. To consider ww2 to be a just war because it was against the "tyrannical nazis" is far too simplistic and ignores all causes of the war. It ignores the general policy of apathy by the other european powers at the time and it ignores the outcome of ww1 as one of the principle causes of ww2. It ignores the war guilt cause and it also ignores the widespread anti-semitism in Europe at the time. Furthermore it ignores the fact that many countries, such as France and Croatia willingly sent their jewish population (or part of it) to German concentration camps at the request of Hitler. I could go on but I think I've made my point.

are you serious?

Are you saying that Hitler's invasion of Poland was acceptable because of the treaty of Versaille?

Are you saying that the forced immigration of Jews was ok and it was the Allies fault that Hitler started gassing millions of Men, Women and Children because they started winning the war?

So france and Croatia are partly to blame for the holocaust because, whilst being occupied by Nazi Germany, they sent Jews to concentration camps?

Yes, the treaty of Versaille was probably the main factor in Hitlers rise to power, but Hitler had to be stopped. That makes WWII a just war in my reckoning.

Sorry, but your "Points" are pointless.

leninbenjamin

Fratton Fred wrote:

That makes WWII a just war in my reckoning.

this thread has gone way off topic. what does whether war is just or not having to with the poppy?

as for the poppy, i understand and respect it. I repect that the legion tend to the graves of Irishmen, but they also died for the British cause, not really an Irish one (we were neutral during WW2 remember? DeValera sypmathised with Germany for the death of Hitler... shameful as it may be that's what happened), so i think it should always be up to the legion and not the Irish government to maintain the graves of Irish in their service.

as for whether i'd wear it, I wouldn't. I'm not British and to my knowledge i don't have any relatives who died fighting for the British at any stage so it's rather irrelevant to me personally.

Blackjack

leninbenjamin wrote:

(we were neutral during WW2 remember? DeValera sypmathised with Germany for the death of Hitler... shameful as it may be that's what happened)

AFAIK this was standard protocol at the time for a Neutral nation.

LordSutch

leninbenjamin wrote:

as for the poppy, i understand and respect it. I repect that the legion tend to the graves of Irishmen, but they also died for the British cause, not really an Irish one (we were neutral during WW2 remember? DeValera sypmathised with Germany for the death of Hitler... shameful as it may be that's what happened), so i think it should always be up to the legion and not the Irish government to maintain the graves of Irish in their service.

as for whether i'd wear it, I wouldn't. I'm not British and to my knowledge i don't have any relatives who died fighting for the British at any stage so it's rather irrelevant to me personally.

I think you are missing the point of wearing the Poppy, you need not have had relatives in the Great War or WWII to wear the Poppy, as it is worn to remember all those who died in the Great War & from then onwards! and has been previously said, between thirty & fifty five thousand Irish men alone died in the two World Wars ............

I personally think thats reason enough to remember them (even if you dont personally have a Family connection).

sligobhoy67

ArthurF wrote:

I think you are missing the point of wearing the Poppy, you need not have had relatives in the Great War or WWII to wear the Poppy, as it is worn to remember all those who died in the Great War & from then onwards! and has been previously said, between thirty & fifty five thousand Irish men alone died in the two World Wars ............

I personally think thats reason enough to remember them (even if you dont personally have a Family connection).

the poppy signifies rememberance of all Britsh Wars - including the Para in Derry, Black and Tans, Lee Clegg etc - is that what you remember or support?

the poppy money largely goes to the families of British soliders - hence the reason I would wear or and look down my nose at those that do!

brianthebard

"Is that what you remember or support?"

What a statement. They are two very different things. Not one person who has said they would wear a poppy has said that they support war, British or otherwise. That is the fundamental meaning behind the poppy, as a remembrance of the horrors of war, not a means of supporting war, and especially not through funding.

Someone has already stated that any money raised by selling poppies in Ireland stays in Ireland. Another has shown that the legion has helped bring people who lost relatives in the war to battlesites and burial grounds.

Where is the evidence that shows by wearing a poppy you are contributing to Britains wars?

Look down your nose at someone who wears a poppy-you make me sick.

murphaph

sligobhoy67 wrote:

hence the reason I would .. look down my nose at those that [wear a poppy]!

Lovely, live and let live eh?! :rolleyes:

sligobhoy67

murphaph wrote:

Lovely, live and let live eh?! :rolleyes:

west brit revisionist history would make you think we destroyed their language and subjectated them for 800

sligobhoy67

brianthebard wrote:

"Is that what you remember or support?"

What a statement. They are two very different things. Not one person who has said they would wear a poppy has said that they support war, British or otherwise. That is the fundamental meaning behind the poppy, as a remembrance of the horrors of war, not a means of supporting war, and especially not through funding.

Someone has already stated that any money raised by selling poppies in Ireland stays in Ireland. Another has shown that the legion has helped bring people who lost relatives in the war to battlesites and burial grounds.

Where is the evidence that shows by wearing a poppy you are contributing to Britains wars?

Look down your nose at someone who wears a poppy-you make me sick.

you acutally make me sick ya west brit.

Why dont you have a look into where the money goes.

Dont expect me to honour or commemorate these murderers!

these are SOME of the reasons I wont be wearing one -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5138354-103683,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Clegg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Iraqi_beating_by_British_soldiers_video

simple really!! If the poppy solely symbolised those who fought and died in WW1 and 2 then I wouldnt have as much of a problem with it - but it doesnt!

do you wear an easter lily to commemorate those who fought to free THIS country?

brianthebard

Thanks but I've got actual history lecturers to lecture me. I don't need any ultra nationalist sentiment either, I got enough of that in the junior cert.

West brit? first time I've been called that, but coming from you i'll take it as a compliment.

sligobhoy67

brianthebard wrote:

Thanks but I've got actual history lecturers to lecture me. I don't need any ultra nationalist sentiment either, I got enough of that in the junior cert.

West brit? first time I've been called that, but coming from you i'll take it as a compliment.

well theres a good boy then! have you got a job yet?

Ireland is still unfree - maybe many of you have forgotten that the Britsh still occupy one sixth of this country. But it seems you are happy to forget about your brothers in the north yet have the balls to call them terrorists when they stand up for themselves.

leninbenjamin

ArthurF wrote:

I think you are missing the point of wearing the Poppy, you need not have had relatives in the Great War or WWII to wear the Poppy, as it is worn to remember all those who died in the Great War & from then onwards! and has been previously said, between thirty & fifty five thousand Irish men alone died in the two World Wars ............

I personally think thats reason enough to remember them (even if you dont personally have a Family connection).

no, i do get the point. those Irish men who you are remembering were fighting (for personal as well as economic reasons) in the name of Britain and her Allies, not Ireland. As such, not having any relatives who died in said causes, as an Irishman i feel no compulsion to wear one.

Also i do like some aspects of the point brought up (if rather crudely) that the poppy remembers those who fought AGAINST Irish causes, and remembering particularly the Black and Tans (whom i remember hearing horror stories about off my grandmother) does not really sit well with me.

A white poppy i would wear, A red poppy i would not.

sligobhoy67

leninbenjamin wrote:

no, i do get the point. those Irish men who you are remembering were fighting (for personal as well as economic reasons) in the name of Britain and her Allies, not Ireland. As such, not having any relatives who died in said causes, as an Irishman i feel no compulsion to wear one.

Also i do like the point brought up (if rather crudely) that the poppy remembers those who fought AGAINST Irish causes, and remembering particularly the Black and Tans (whom i remember hearing horror stories about off my grandmother) does not really sit well with me.

A white poppy i would wear, A red poppy i would not.

remember the quisling Irish that aided Britain if you wish however the poppy is a wholey inappropriate symbol to use to this end imo

leninbenjamin

sligobhoy67 wrote:

remember the quisling Irish that aided Britain

ok that term i strongly disagree with.

brianthebard

sligobhoy67 wrote:

well theres a good boy then! have you got a job yet?

I'm a final year student of course I don't have a job! What's that got to do with the poppy?

sligobhoy67

leninbenjamin wrote:

ok that term i strongly disagree with.

its your right to disagree with the term - my grand uncle was one of those quisling mecenaries and freely admits it.

sligobhoy67

brianthebard wrote:

I'm a final year student of course I don't have a job! What's that got to do with the poppy?

I was just having a dig at ya, anyway when i was a student i had a job!

murphaph

sligobhoy67 wrote:

well theres a good boy then! have you got a job yet?

Ireland is still unfree - maybe many of you have forgotten that the Britsh still occupy one sixth of this country. But it seems you are happy to forget about your brothers in the north yet have the balls to call them terrorists when they stand up for themselves.

My whining 'brothers in the north' can look after themselves. Who's oppressing them? They are getting an undemocratic power sharing executive set up for them abd they're still whining.

sligobhoy67

murphaph wrote:

My whining 'brothers in the north' can look after themselves. Who's oppressing them? They are getting an undemocratic power sharing executive set up for them abd they're still whining.

eaten bread is truely soon forgotten

Diorraing

murphaph wrote:

My whining 'brothers in the north' can look after themselves. Who's oppressing them? They are getting an undemocratic power sharing executive set up for them abd they're still whining.

I thought a majority of the people of the 6 counties voted in favour of the GFA. Democracy means that the will of the people prevails, does it not? The reason that Nationalists are given porfolios in the Government is because Unionists proved themselves most unfit to rule alone the 60 or so years they had complete power. The treatment of catholics in Northern Ireland during this period might be hard for you to remember but you must surely give it a try, seeing as you're so enthusiastic to remember a pointless war fought nearly a century ago.

murphaph

Diorraing wrote:

I thought a majority of the people of the 6 counties voted in favour of the GFA. Democracy means that the will of the people prevails, does it not? The reason that Nationalists are given porfolios in the Government is because Unionists proved themselves most unfit to rule alone the 60 or so years they had complete power. The treatment of catholics in Northern Ireland during this period might be hard for you to remember but you must surely give it a try, seeing as you're so enthusiastic to remember a pointless war fought nearly a century ago.

Stormont (mis)rule is well documented. Stormont hasn't seen a majority rules government in over 30 years though. I'd put it to you that the real reason nationalists are getting portfolios in govt is because they murdered and maimed their way to a point where people would vote for nost anything if it meant an end to the violence. In fairness to SFIRA, their tactics seem to have worked and despite being in the minority, will be in the govt of Northern Ireland. Ya have to hand it to them. At some point though, they will have to move on from power sharing to a democratic system with majority rules. By that time SFIRA will have truly accepted the position of NI within the UK or they will have returned to violence. My opinion of course, I do not posess the ability to see into the future.

Blackjack

murphaph wrote:

I'd put it to you that the real reason nationalists are getting portfolios in govt is because they murdered and maimed their way to a point where people would vote for nost anything if it meant an end to the violence.

I'd put it to you that the SDLP did not Murder or maim anyone either, but tar them all with the same Brush if you will.

LordSutch

Looks like this thread is quickly descending into a tit for tat political discussion "which is a shame" because this is actually a very solemn topic which is 'meant' to remember many tens of thousands of Irish men who died in the field of battle.

vesp

Exactly. Hundreds of thousands of Irish people volunteered and served proudly with Britain, where they were very fairly treated. They helped defend these islands from Nazism and other threats. But for those brave people who gave their lives we would not live like we do today, and the world would be a much different place.

murphaph

Blackjack wrote:

I'd put it to you that the SDLP did not Murder or maim anyone either, but tar them all with the same Brush if you will.

Fair comment, I should have said "the real reason nationalists in the form of SF are getting portfolios is because the PIRA/INLA murdered and maimed their way to it". I have naught but respect for constitutional nationalists such as the SDLP. Fair enough?