The poppy

Dub13

I would,I just want to see what the general opinion on this board is.

A Dub in Glasgo

White Poppy - Yes

Red Poppy - No

Steyr

Yes.

Just My View

No.

triskell

Red poppy in rememberence of those who fell.

Huggles

Yes I would. My great grandfather died on the first day of the Somme.

Dub13

I believe there is a bit of controversy over in the UK about the white poppy.IMO a poppy is red.It's red to remember the blood loss. It's called Remembrance Day after all.

Huggles

Isnt it to do with the amount of poppies that blossom on the battle fields every year too?

A Dub in Glasgo

Dub13 wrote:

I believe there is a bit of controversy over in the UK about the white poppy.IMO a poppy is red.It's red to remember the blood loss. It's called Remembrance Day after all.

Why should there be controversy over remembering fallen soldiers but wanting peace not war? The red poppy sold by the BL goes towards remembering & supporting all soldiers in all conflicts from the British forces. Why should people support that?

Do you agree with the idea of 'blood sacrifice'?

Dub13

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Why should there be controversy over remembering fallen soldiers but wanting peace not war?

The controversy is over a number of things IIRC,it has nothing to do with people wanting peace and not war.The question appears to be the funds raised from selling white poppies, and the use of the RBL's de facto trade mark, which may harm RBL's fund raising efforts.I am not to sure of of the facts but there are some concerns about were the money goes.I would not like to say what I have heard as its not fact and just hear say.

Just to add,I myself have no objection to pacificists, peace campaigners, anti-war brigade in the slightest as their voice is valid and necessary in an effective democracy.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The red poppy sold by the BL goes towards remembering & supporting all soldiers in all conflicts from the British forces. Why should people support that?

I never said you should,thats a personal choice.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Do you agree with the idea of 'blood sacrifice'?

The red poppy worn at this time of year does not glorify war. In fact it does the exact opposite and acts as a reminder of the horrors that we and our forebears have seen or been involved in.Everyone understands the meaning of the red poppy, and they understand the impotence of wearing the red poppy. Any other colour would take away the meaning of the red poppy almost like the colour wrist bands we had last year, they all lost their meaning because there was to many of them to have a meaning.

A Dub in Glasgo

Dub13 wrote:

The controversy is over a number of things IIRC,it has nothing to do with people wanting peace and not war.The question appears to be the funds raised from selling white poppies, and the use of the RBL's de facto trade mark, which may harm RBL's fund raising efforts.I am not to sure of of the facts but there are some concerns about were the money goes.I would not like to say what I have heard as its not fact and just hear say.

1st I am hearing of this, got any more info.

I wear a white poppy, every comment I get is from people who state I should support 'the troops' by wearing a red one. Not one person has stated what you say.

I never said you should,thats a personal choice.

Why do you support the British Legion poppy?

The red poppy worn at this time of year does not glorify war.

It qlorifies the sacrifices in war... from one side.

In fact it does the exact opposite and acts as a reminder of the horrors that we and our forebears have seen or been involved in.

It includes every conflict the British have been involved in including NI & Iraq.

Everyone understands the meaning of the red poppy, and they understand the impotence of wearing the red poppy.

I don't think severyone understands the British Legion red poppy. Your thread title is referring to red poppy rather than just poppy?

Any other colour would take away the meaning of the red poppy almost like the colour wrist bands we had last year, they all lost their meaning because there was to many of them to have a meaning.

Why? blood sacrifice again?

The thing

The Red Poppy sold by the Royal British Legion goes into maintaining war graves of fallen soldiers, including the 30,000 Irish men who died in the first world war the 5,000 who died in the second and countless others in other wars and conflicts with the British Army.
The only reason that the poppy has benn held with ill regard in this country is the fact that unionists have hijacked the symbol for their own political purposes. Personally I think we should remember the fallen of this country, after all over 250,000 Irishmen fought in the first world war and over 100,000 in the second. It is part of our history, as much as Nationalism. We cannot rewrite our history.

I would wear a Poppy under my coat as it wouldn't go down too well in the area I live.

Huggles

The thing wrote:

The Red Poppy sold by the Royal British Legion goes into maintaining war graves of fallen soldiers, including the 30,000 Irish men who died in the first world war the 5,000 who died in the second and countless others in other wars and conflicts with the British Army.
The only reason that the poppy has benn held with ill regard in this country is the fact that unionists have hijacked the symbol for their own political purposes. Personally I think we should remember the fallen of this country, after all over 250,000 Irishmen fought in the first world war and over 100,000 in the second. It is part of our history, as much as Nationalism. We cannot rewrite our history.

I would wear a Poppy under my coat as it wouldn't go down too well in the area I live.

Very well said Thing.

A Dub in Glasgo

The thing wrote:

The Red Poppy sold by the Royal British Legion goes into maintaining war graves of fallen soldiers, including the 30,000 Irish men who died in the first world war the 5,000 who died in the second and countless others in other wars and conflicts with the British Army.

Including those British soldiers who died and were injured in Ireland, Iraq and other independence conflicts. Contribute to that? No thanks.

Huggles

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Including those British soldiers who died and were injured in Ireland, Iraq and other independence conflicts. Contribute to that? No thanks.

Nationalism at its most irrational....

Just My View

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Including those British soldiers who died and were injured in Ireland, Iraq and other independence conflicts. Contribute to that? No thanks.

Amen.

A Dub in Glasgo

TheGooner wrote:

Nationalism at its most irrational....

Why? Surely that is what you are contributing to?

The thing

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Including those British soldiers who died and were injured in Ireland, Iraq and other independence conflicts. Contribute to that? No thanks.

And what about the soldiers who went to fight the Nazi slaughter machine in Europe and never came home, who went to secure peace for the rest of the free world and guarentee the freedom of this country by defeating a greater foe than Britain.

As I said Unionism has highjacked the symbol and made it into what it represents in this country today. The same thing has happened to the Irish harp in Ulster, the Red hand of O'Neill (the Crest and symbol of O' Neill, who fought the British when the rest of Ireland had sided with the English Armies) The O'Neill flag, which is now the Northern Ireland flag.

A Dub in Glasgo

The thing wrote:

And what about the soldiers who went to fight the Nazi slaughter machine in Europe and never came home, who went to secure peace for the rest of the free world and guarentee the freedom of this country by defeating a greater foe than Britain.

Yeah, you are not remembering the majority of soldiers who fought against the Nazis, you are only remembering the British soldiers. With the white poppy, you remember all, not selective like the red. With the red, you are not only remembering the British soldiers of WWI & II but also the British soldiers in Ireland, Iraq and other independence conflicts.

The thing

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yeah, you are not remembering the majority of soldiers who fought against the Nazis, you are only remembering the British soldiers. With the white poppy, you remember all, not selective like the red. With the red, you are not only remembering the British soldiers of WWI & II but also the British soldiers in Ireland, Iraq and other independence conflicts.

And what does the money provide or serve with the white poppy? Does it maintain the wargraves of Irish soldiers like the Red poppy?
Answer NO.
A fallen son of Ireland should be able to rest in a marked grave no matter where he fell. The money goes into maintaining graves.
If a white poppy done that I would support and buy one, but it doesn't, you might as well buy a white dove as it serves the same purpose as a white poppy.

A Dub in Glasgo

The thing wrote:

And what does the money provide or serve with the white poppy? Does it maintain the wargraves of Irish soldiers like the Red poppy?

How much of the red poppy in Ireland goes to that?

A fallen son of Ireland should be able to rest in a marked grave no matter where he fell. The money goes into maintaining graves.

Surely you mean 'A fallen Irish son of the UK should be able to rest in a marked grave no matter where he fell.'

Do you give money to the NGA?

If a white poppy done that I would support and buy one, but it doesn't, you might as well buy a white dove as it serves the same purpose as a white poppy.

You are only interest in the sybolism of some figures maintaining the graves of Irish people who fought for Britain? How much does the red poppy do that?

How much of your money goes to what you say you support?

The thing

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

How much of the red poppy in Ireland goes to that?




Surely you mean 'A fallen Irish son of the UK should be able to rest in a marked grave no matter where he fell.'

Do you give money to the NGA?

No but I buy a poppy to remember Ireland's war dead, who died fighting with the British Army, who Ireland as a member of the Union was in until independence in 1922.



You are only interest in the sybolism of some figures maintaining the graves of Irish people who fought for Britain? How much does the red poppy do that?

At current it maintains somewhere in the region of 40,000 offical graves of Irishmen who died in British service.

How much of your money goes to what you say you support?

I don't know, I'm not an accountant with the British War graves commission, nor associated with it in anyway. However as an Irishman I feel compelled to support our war dead, as I do also by supporting Saint Patricks day. But then again you are probably too ignorant to know that the origins of that day is to celebrate Irish soldiers service in the United States Army.

Mick86

I'll be wearing a poppy to remember the Irishmen who died for European freedom and democracy, 1914-1918 and 1939-1945.

Chuimneoimid Ort.

Dub13

The thing wrote:

However as an Irishman I feel compelled to support our war dead, as I do also by supporting Saint Patricks day. But then again you are probably too ignorant to know that the origins of that day is to celebrate Irish soldiers service in the United States Army.

Less of the personal abuse please,lets try and keep this civil.


Dub13

Dub13

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Including those British soldiers who died and were injured in Ireland, Iraq and other independence conflicts. Contribute to that? No thanks.

Well you had better stop wearing the white poppy then....


"a white poppy is intended to convey the same meaning of remembrance of fallen soldiers, but also stands as a pledge to peace that war must not happen again".


So you are in fact remembering British soldiers who died in conflicts around the world.

A Dub in Glasgo

I am well aware that the white poppy remembers all. It remembers them on the basis that war should not be repeated and it is something I agree with. The red poppy remembers the blood sacrifice from the British in all wars and

The Red Poppy sold by the Royal British Legion goes into maintaining war graves of fallen soldiers, including the 30,000 Irish men who died in the first world war the 5,000 who died in the second and countless others in other wars and conflicts with the British Army.

which happens to be the bit I replied to with the quote you used above.

flogen

I know it's sold in the UK by the Royal British Legion, but do any Irish organisations (veteran or otherwise) sell the poppy in Ireland?

It strikes me that as a country we do seem to be shaking off our old hang-ups in relation to Irish involvement in World War 1 and 2, and I think we should be mature enough now to see something like the poppy as a mark of respect for the fallen, and not something purely British.

Has anyone seen any politicians or perhaps even TV presenters in Ireland wearing it? I'd hate things to go down the route where people would be attacked for not wearing the pin, but at the same time I think people might be attacked for just wearing one at all as it stands.

mike65

There is an Irish branch of the Legion, saw a chap on a bike with one with morning.

http://www.cidb.ie/comhairlevcs.nsf/dafc4ddd0be874478025708a004910d5/eb396b7e9575231e80256dea0048119f?OpenDocument

Newstalk did a vox-pox on the streets of Drogheeeeda and the views were mixed, only a few were covered in spittle and rage!

Mike.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

It's a British tradition, why would we do it here?

mike65

Because its NOT a British tradition, ask a Kiwi.

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

Surely we should be commemorating all the dead of WW1 & 2 including the slaughter of civilians. The RBL red Poppy does not do that, it commemorates British armed forces in all wars/conflicts/disputes.

flogen

sean_keevey wrote:

It's a British tradition, why would we do it here?

That's my point, it ain't a British tradition, and even if it was why does it have to be?
The idea is to remember and honour those who fought and died in the two world wars, which included plenty of Irishmen... have we not gotten over our hang-up yet and realised that sharing something with Britain doesn't make us British? No more than speaking the same language does?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Surely we should be commemorating all the dead of WW1 & 2 including the slaughter of civilians. The RBL red Poppy does not do that, it commemorates British armed forces in all wars/conflicts/disputes.

Well, yes, the RBL use it to contribute towards veterans, but it has its origins firmly in World War 1, and the concept of it is to commemorate the dead of the two world wars... an Irish organisation that sold it wouldn't be using it to go towards British veterans, but to commemorate and honour Irish ones (and international ones, why not?)

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

Because its NOT a British tradition, ask a Kiwi.

Mike.

OK, it is a tradition of Britain and her former colonies

aidan_walsh

have we not gotten over our hang-up yet and realised that sharing something with Britain doesn't make us British?

Three words that suggest the answer is a stonking great no. British Isles Thread.

A Dub in Glasgo

flogen wrote:

That's my point, it ain't a British tradition, and even if it was why does it have to be?
The idea is to remember and honour those who fought and died in the two world wars, which included plenty of Irishmen... have we not gotten over our hang-up yet and realised that sharing something with Britain doesn't make us British? No more than speaking the same language does?



Well, yes, the RBL use it to contribute towards veterans, but it has its origins firmly in World War 1, and the concept of it is to commemorate the dead of the two world wars... an Irish organisation that sold it wouldn't be using it to go towards British veterans, but to commemorate and honour Irish ones (and international ones, why not?)

It would be preferable if the [whatever symbol] commemorates the dead including civilians of war. Afterall, the slaughter of civilians is largely forgotten in any remembrance of WW1 & 2. At the moment the red poppy is a partisan symbol therefore I would be against using that symbol for commemoration.

Boston

couple points.

A Dub in Glasgo; Why should you represent everyone just because you represent some. It doesn't make sense to say it should be all things to all people. Its something for british service men and women, wheres the point in asking why isn't it something different. The two arn't mutually exclusive.

In general.
As for the sale of poppies in ireland. The money goes towards british service men and women. I'd be about as likely to give money to them as IRA veterans. Shower of murders and cut throats.

mike65

What might be done is for the government here to institute an appropriate
symbol which can raise funds for WW2 veterans on hard times.

liouville some of the money goes to Irishmen.

Mike.

flogen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It would be preferable if the [whatever symbol] commemorates the dead including civilians of war. Afterall, the slaughter of civilians is largely forgotten in any remembrance of WW1 & 2. At the moment the red poppy is a partisan symbol therefore I would be against using that symbol for commemoration.

From what I can see it's being perceived rather than offered as a partisan symbol.
There's nothing that says the poppy cannot be sold in commemoration of civilians as well as soldiers; I would take it that it a commemoration for all who died during World War 1 and 2, regardless of side, country or status.
Surely you can see that if an Irish organisation started selling the poppy, they could sell it as a commemoration over whatever breath of victim they see fit.

flogen

mike65 wrote:

liouville some of the money goes to Irishmen.

Mike.

And, as I said, if an Irish equivalent of the RBL sold the poppies here, the proceeds could be given to Irish veterans or servicemen/women instead... I'm not saying the RBL would be the ones selling the poppy here, I'm asking why this type of commemoration is seen as a British thing.

A Dub in Glasgo

Another version of the poppy that people wear.

philologos

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

OK, it is a tradition of Britain and her former colonies

Ireland is also a former colony of Britain.

A Dub in Glasgo

Jakkass wrote:

Ireland is also a former colony of Britain.

Part of it still is

mike65

This a seperate thread but Ireland was'nt viewed as a colony like say India, Canada etc, cos Ireland was part of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland after the Act of Union (1800).

Mike.

fly_agaric

sean_keevey wrote:

It's a British tradition, why would we do it here?

Eh to show how cewel and oh-kay we in modern UKhighstreetshopLand all are now with our glorious former history as a much valued and well-loved piece of the UK.

constitutionus

perceptions everything in matters like this and like it or not the poppy is seen as a british symbol so i cant see it catching on here. remember the guys they first started selling em for were the ones fighting us when we went for independance so its a tad hypocritical to wear one in an official capacity i.e ministers or journalists on RTE when your part of a state that slaughtered them in such numbers.

personally i dont have a problem with someone wearing it if they genuinely support what it stands for but i wouldnt wear one myself

jank

Ah jesus not this thread again!

Snickers Man

TheGooner wrote:

Yes I would. My great grandfather died on the first day of the Somme.

No I wouldn't. And my great uncle died on the Somme as well.

It makes me laugh how many people accuse the Irish of 'writing out of history' their countrymen who fought in the British Army in two World Wars. We did not. I learned in school in Dublin (all good Catholic schools) of Gallipoli and the Dardanelles and the Irish who were massacred there, despite what that ignoramus Kevin Myers wrote in the Indo last week.

Brendan Behan, formerly of the IRA, wrote a famous humorous piece in the Irish Press in February 1956 (referenced here about how a dramatised documentary about Gallipoli,when shown in Dublin in the 1930s, provoked the audience to claim to recognise all their friends and relatives getting killed in droves.


So Gallipoli was very much in the popular consciousness of working class Dublin when that film came out in the 1930s. It was obviously still very well known when Behan wrote that colum in the 1950s.

Given that I wasn't born let alone reading the papers in 1956, how come I know about this? Because that piece was in my English school reader in the 1970s.

Also, RTE made many references, even in de Valera's time, to Irish involvement in the first world war. They broadcast, for example, the service of remembrance from Belfast Cathedral for the 50th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. So the state broadcaster DID acknowledge your great grandfather's memory, despite what some revisionists might tell you.

It was not swept under the carpet, it was not concealed or distorted. What we did NOT do, however, was write in teh story of the Somme and Gallipoli into the national narrative as an ongoing struggle by our people for their freedom. Again, why should we and more importantly how could we? Those were our compatriots fighting in another country's army for another country's war.

Do you know who the real 'writers out of history' are? Those who say that the poppy is only about those who served in the two world wars. IT IS NOT. The Royal British Legion is a benevolent organisation for ALL British ex servicemen. To contribute to it is to provide welfare to ANY ex serviceman who fought in any war or engagement on behalf of the British Army. (DOn't take my word for it. Ask the RBL)

Nothing wrong with supporting charitably some poor old codger who got his bollix shot off 50 years ago, but to wear the poppy is to declare common cause with all actions of the British Army. Including Iraq. Including the Falklands. Including Kenya, Cyprus, Aden, Palestine, Sudan, Malaya, Kosovo. Oh and including Northern Ireland.

We don't have any say in British policy. We have our own army and our own government. Sometimes our interests coincide with the British. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they are in direct conflict. The poppy is an entirely inappropriate way for Irish people to commemorate their relatives who served in a foreign army.

Dub13

Moved from the Military forum.

Threads merged.


Personally I wouldnt wear the poppy as I'm here in the Republic of Ireland and it is of little or no significance here.
I'd have no problem wearing one (white or Red) in any country where the symbolism was marking something that the vast majority of that country was remembering respectfully.

flogen

Snickers Man wrote:

No I wouldn't. And my great uncle died on the Somme as well.

It makes me laugh how many people accuse the Irish of 'writing out of history' their countrymen who fought in the British Army in two World Wars.

The fact is that Irish involvement in the two World Wars has been a sore point for Ireland since Independence, with some labeling those who fought as traitors and the state seemingly refusing to remember them until relatively recently.
(And I honestly cannot recall being thought much about World War 1, certainly not the Irish element of it; and I was a very keen history student).

Just to make clear; I don't like the idea of the RBL selling poppies here, but I do think it's a shame that there's no great national movement equivelant to the red poppy in the UK (and I don't see why it can't also be a red poppy too; just because it has a certain image doesn't mean it has to forever).

Of course I think it's something we'll slowly move towards; just like I expect a national holiday / day of rememberance to be the done thing for the Easter Rising by the time of the 100th anniversary (although it'll probably be packaged as a general veterans day or rememberance day, which I'd support).
It's odd that we don't have anything like the poppy to symbolise our commemoration of any war Irish men and women died in; perhaps the Easter Lily becoming something more official than it currently is, with more broad symbolism than just the Rising (in that regard it needs to be taken away from any one party and entrusted to a charitable organisation or some kind)

A Dub in Glasgo

flogen wrote:

The fact is that Irish involvement in the two World Wars has been a sore point for Ireland since Independence, with some labeling those who fought as traitors and the state seemingly refusing to remember them until relatively recently.
(And I honestly cannot recall being thought much about World War 1, certainly not the Irish element of it; and I was a very keen history student).

I remember being taught about the droves of Irish people who joined the British Army to fight in WW1 About how politicians of the day encouraged and demanded that Irish people should join up. Have a read at an article in todays Sunday Business Post

(and I don't see why it can't also be a red poppy too; just because it has a certain image doesn't mean it has to forever).

What is wrong with the white one?

Of course I think it's something we'll slowly move towards; just like I expect a national holiday / day of rememberance to be the done thing for the Easter Rising by the time of the 100th anniversary (although it'll probably be packaged as a general veterans day or rememberance day, which I'd support).
It's odd that we don't have anything like the poppy to symbolise our commemoration of any war Irish men and women died in; perhaps the Easter Lily becoming something more official than it currently is, with more broad symbolism than just the Rising (in that regard it needs to be taken away from any one party and entrusted to a charitable organisation or some kind)

What about Irish mercenaries who go to warzones and fight, are they included in the commemoration as well?