The poppy

flogen

sean_keevey wrote:

It's a British tradition, why would we do it here?

That's my point, it ain't a British tradition, and even if it was why does it have to be?
The idea is to remember and honour those who fought and died in the two world wars, which included plenty of Irishmen... have we not gotten over our hang-up yet and realised that sharing something with Britain doesn't make us British? No more than speaking the same language does?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Surely we should be commemorating all the dead of WW1 & 2 including the slaughter of civilians. The RBL red Poppy does not do that, it commemorates British armed forces in all wars/conflicts/disputes.

Well, yes, the RBL use it to contribute towards veterans, but it has its origins firmly in World War 1, and the concept of it is to commemorate the dead of the two world wars... an Irish organisation that sold it wouldn't be using it to go towards British veterans, but to commemorate and honour Irish ones (and international ones, why not?)

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

Because its NOT a British tradition, ask a Kiwi.

Mike.

OK, it is a tradition of Britain and her former colonies

aidan_walsh

have we not gotten over our hang-up yet and realised that sharing something with Britain doesn't make us British?

Three words that suggest the answer is a stonking great no. British Isles Thread.

A Dub in Glasgo

flogen wrote:

That's my point, it ain't a British tradition, and even if it was why does it have to be?
The idea is to remember and honour those who fought and died in the two world wars, which included plenty of Irishmen... have we not gotten over our hang-up yet and realised that sharing something with Britain doesn't make us British? No more than speaking the same language does?



Well, yes, the RBL use it to contribute towards veterans, but it has its origins firmly in World War 1, and the concept of it is to commemorate the dead of the two world wars... an Irish organisation that sold it wouldn't be using it to go towards British veterans, but to commemorate and honour Irish ones (and international ones, why not?)

It would be preferable if the [whatever symbol] commemorates the dead including civilians of war. Afterall, the slaughter of civilians is largely forgotten in any remembrance of WW1 & 2. At the moment the red poppy is a partisan symbol therefore I would be against using that symbol for commemoration.

Boston

couple points.

A Dub in Glasgo; Why should you represent everyone just because you represent some. It doesn't make sense to say it should be all things to all people. Its something for british service men and women, wheres the point in asking why isn't it something different. The two arn't mutually exclusive.

In general.
As for the sale of poppies in ireland. The money goes towards british service men and women. I'd be about as likely to give money to them as IRA veterans. Shower of murders and cut throats.

mike65

What might be done is for the government here to institute an appropriate
symbol which can raise funds for WW2 veterans on hard times.

liouville some of the money goes to Irishmen.

Mike.

flogen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It would be preferable if the [whatever symbol] commemorates the dead including civilians of war. Afterall, the slaughter of civilians is largely forgotten in any remembrance of WW1 & 2. At the moment the red poppy is a partisan symbol therefore I would be against using that symbol for commemoration.

From what I can see it's being perceived rather than offered as a partisan symbol.
There's nothing that says the poppy cannot be sold in commemoration of civilians as well as soldiers; I would take it that it a commemoration for all who died during World War 1 and 2, regardless of side, country or status.
Surely you can see that if an Irish organisation started selling the poppy, they could sell it as a commemoration over whatever breath of victim they see fit.

flogen

mike65 wrote:

liouville some of the money goes to Irishmen.

Mike.

And, as I said, if an Irish equivalent of the RBL sold the poppies here, the proceeds could be given to Irish veterans or servicemen/women instead... I'm not saying the RBL would be the ones selling the poppy here, I'm asking why this type of commemoration is seen as a British thing.

A Dub in Glasgo

Another version of the poppy that people wear.

philologos

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

OK, it is a tradition of Britain and her former colonies

Ireland is also a former colony of Britain.

A Dub in Glasgo

Jakkass wrote:

Ireland is also a former colony of Britain.

Part of it still is

mike65

This a seperate thread but Ireland was'nt viewed as a colony like say India, Canada etc, cos Ireland was part of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland after the Act of Union (1800).

Mike.

fly_agaric

sean_keevey wrote:

It's a British tradition, why would we do it here?

Eh to show how cewel and oh-kay we in modern UKhighstreetshopLand all are now with our glorious former history as a much valued and well-loved piece of the UK.

constitutionus

perceptions everything in matters like this and like it or not the poppy is seen as a british symbol so i cant see it catching on here. remember the guys they first started selling em for were the ones fighting us when we went for independance so its a tad hypocritical to wear one in an official capacity i.e ministers or journalists on RTE when your part of a state that slaughtered them in such numbers.

personally i dont have a problem with someone wearing it if they genuinely support what it stands for but i wouldnt wear one myself

jank

Ah jesus not this thread again!

Snickers Man

TheGooner wrote:

Yes I would. My great grandfather died on the first day of the Somme.

No I wouldn't. And my great uncle died on the Somme as well.

It makes me laugh how many people accuse the Irish of 'writing out of history' their countrymen who fought in the British Army in two World Wars. We did not. I learned in school in Dublin (all good Catholic schools) of Gallipoli and the Dardanelles and the Irish who were massacred there, despite what that ignoramus Kevin Myers wrote in the Indo last week.

Brendan Behan, formerly of the IRA, wrote a famous humorous piece in the Irish Press in February 1956 (referenced here about how a dramatised documentary about Gallipoli,when shown in Dublin in the 1930s, provoked the audience to claim to recognise all their friends and relatives getting killed in droves.


So Gallipoli was very much in the popular consciousness of working class Dublin when that film came out in the 1930s. It was obviously still very well known when Behan wrote that colum in the 1950s.

Given that I wasn't born let alone reading the papers in 1956, how come I know about this? Because that piece was in my English school reader in the 1970s.

Also, RTE made many references, even in de Valera's time, to Irish involvement in the first world war. They broadcast, for example, the service of remembrance from Belfast Cathedral for the 50th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. So the state broadcaster DID acknowledge your great grandfather's memory, despite what some revisionists might tell you.

It was not swept under the carpet, it was not concealed or distorted. What we did NOT do, however, was write in teh story of the Somme and Gallipoli into the national narrative as an ongoing struggle by our people for their freedom. Again, why should we and more importantly how could we? Those were our compatriots fighting in another country's army for another country's war.

Do you know who the real 'writers out of history' are? Those who say that the poppy is only about those who served in the two world wars. IT IS NOT. The Royal British Legion is a benevolent organisation for ALL British ex servicemen. To contribute to it is to provide welfare to ANY ex serviceman who fought in any war or engagement on behalf of the British Army. (DOn't take my word for it. Ask the RBL)

Nothing wrong with supporting charitably some poor old codger who got his bollix shot off 50 years ago, but to wear the poppy is to declare common cause with all actions of the British Army. Including Iraq. Including the Falklands. Including Kenya, Cyprus, Aden, Palestine, Sudan, Malaya, Kosovo. Oh and including Northern Ireland.

We don't have any say in British policy. We have our own army and our own government. Sometimes our interests coincide with the British. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they are in direct conflict. The poppy is an entirely inappropriate way for Irish people to commemorate their relatives who served in a foreign army.

Dub13

Moved from the Military forum.

Threads merged.


Personally I wouldnt wear the poppy as I'm here in the Republic of Ireland and it is of little or no significance here.
I'd have no problem wearing one (white or Red) in any country where the symbolism was marking something that the vast majority of that country was remembering respectfully.

flogen

Snickers Man wrote:

No I wouldn't. And my great uncle died on the Somme as well.

It makes me laugh how many people accuse the Irish of 'writing out of history' their countrymen who fought in the British Army in two World Wars.

The fact is that Irish involvement in the two World Wars has been a sore point for Ireland since Independence, with some labeling those who fought as traitors and the state seemingly refusing to remember them until relatively recently.
(And I honestly cannot recall being thought much about World War 1, certainly not the Irish element of it; and I was a very keen history student).

Just to make clear; I don't like the idea of the RBL selling poppies here, but I do think it's a shame that there's no great national movement equivelant to the red poppy in the UK (and I don't see why it can't also be a red poppy too; just because it has a certain image doesn't mean it has to forever).

Of course I think it's something we'll slowly move towards; just like I expect a national holiday / day of rememberance to be the done thing for the Easter Rising by the time of the 100th anniversary (although it'll probably be packaged as a general veterans day or rememberance day, which I'd support).
It's odd that we don't have anything like the poppy to symbolise our commemoration of any war Irish men and women died in; perhaps the Easter Lily becoming something more official than it currently is, with more broad symbolism than just the Rising (in that regard it needs to be taken away from any one party and entrusted to a charitable organisation or some kind)

A Dub in Glasgo

flogen wrote:

The fact is that Irish involvement in the two World Wars has been a sore point for Ireland since Independence, with some labeling those who fought as traitors and the state seemingly refusing to remember them until relatively recently.
(And I honestly cannot recall being thought much about World War 1, certainly not the Irish element of it; and I was a very keen history student).

I remember being taught about the droves of Irish people who joined the British Army to fight in WW1 About how politicians of the day encouraged and demanded that Irish people should join up. Have a read at an article in todays Sunday Business Post

(and I don't see why it can't also be a red poppy too; just because it has a certain image doesn't mean it has to forever).

What is wrong with the white one?

Of course I think it's something we'll slowly move towards; just like I expect a national holiday / day of rememberance to be the done thing for the Easter Rising by the time of the 100th anniversary (although it'll probably be packaged as a general veterans day or rememberance day, which I'd support).
It's odd that we don't have anything like the poppy to symbolise our commemoration of any war Irish men and women died in; perhaps the Easter Lily becoming something more official than it currently is, with more broad symbolism than just the Rising (in that regard it needs to be taken away from any one party and entrusted to a charitable organisation or some kind)

What about Irish mercenaries who go to warzones and fight, are they included in the commemoration as well?

flogen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I remember being taught about the droves of Irish people who joined the British Army to fight in WW1 About how politicians of the day encouraged and demanded that Irish people should join up. Have a read at an article in todays Sunday Business Post

What has a newspaper article got to do with my education?
I remember being taught about people joining the army in WW2, I remember very little about WW1 though.

What is wrong with the white one?

Same as a red one; it's all a matter of creating an Irish definition for it.

What about Irish mercenaries who go to warzones and fight, are they included in the commemoration as well?

That depends on your definition of mercenaries I guess; I'm sure plenty here would even disagree on who the official state forces are

Andrew 83

I would not wear one. For me it has become hyjacked by British nationalism and, to an extent, a glorification of war. War should not be glorified, it is more often than not officially sanctioned murder and rape inflicted on those least fortunate in the countries involved.

I'm happy to remember all those who have died under these horrible circumstances and we have our own day to commemorate all those Irish who have died. Let's not forget that many of the Irish who signed up did not do so out of nationalism or 'to save Belgium' or anything of the like - it was because they were so desperately poor it was one of the only ways to get money. The current viewpoint of the red poppy ignores all this in favour of nationalism.

If I were appearing on British TV during the period where they're all wearing them and it was suggested to me that one should be worn I would probably wear a white one. It's a pity more isn't done in Britain to fight the glorification tendencies of some poppy wearing - I think wearing the white poppy would help to do this. [By the way I have some vested interests in the white poppy of a vague kind - my grandparents who were pacifists in Britain (my grandfather was a consciencious objector in WW2) supported and sold them for years]

A Dub in Glasgo

flogen wrote:

What has a newspaper article got to do with my education?

Surprisely, you don't appear to be educated through newspapers then? My mistake, scrub that article from the SBP. I certainly learn from articles.

Same as a red one; it's all a matter of creating an Irish definition for it.

The major difference in colour is the endorsement of the British Army, yet you seem to want the red one?

That depends on your definition of mercenaries I guess; I'm sure plenty here would even disagree on who the official state forces are

Most definitions of mercenary seem to be consistant

murphaph

The red ones are the ones that grow in Flanders. That's the whole point isn't it?

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

The red ones are the ones that grow in Flanders. That's the whole point isn't it?

Is the intention to only commemorate those poor unfortunates who died in Flanders?

If not, surely the colour of the poppy is not driven by the statement 'The red ones are the ones that grow in Flanders'?

If yes, why are we even having this discussion?

flogen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Surprisely, you don't appear to be educated through newspapers then? My mistake, scrub that article from the SBP. I certainly learn from articles.

Very good. Let me rephrase that; what has a newspaper article got to do with what I learned in school?

The major difference in colour is the endorsement of the British Army, yet you seem to want the red one?

Sigh. Is it so hard to accept the potential for the red poppy to be endorsed by two seperate entities for two seperate ends? For example, the yellow ribbon is used in America as a sign of support for US troops, however in Singapore, apparently, it's used as a sign of support for the rehabilitation of ex-cons...
The point I'm making is that while the red poppy is currently used by the RBL to support British troops, it is also generally percieved by many as a sign of rememberance to war victims in general. Why is it so odd to consider an Irish organisation and the Irish people taking the same symbol and using it instead as a sign of rememberance for Irish soldiers and victims of war?

Most definitions of mercenary seem to be consistant

Very well.
In my opinion rememberance should be given to those that died in the War of Independence, the Irish Civil War, the two World Wars and other wars where Irish people fought for an ideal, right or wrong. If you're asking me if we should commemorate those who fought, killed and died in an attempt to make money instead of doing so for other more noble reasons (furthering their country's freedom, for the belief that they held in what was right etc. etc.), my answer would be no; or at least I wouldn't.

A Dub in Glasgo

flogen wrote:

Very good. Let me rephrase that; what has a newspaper article got to do with what I learned in school?

Well, if you learned nothing of a subject matter at school and you read a newspaper article on said subject matter... you have learned something. It may not be the whole spectrum that can be learned about the said subject matter but.....

For example, the yellow ribbon is used in America as a sign of support for US troops, however in Singapore, apparently, it's used as a sign of support for the rehabilitation of ex-cons...

It is not used for the same general purpose though ie in Singapore they do not use the yellow ribbon to remember folk from Singapore who fought for the US, do they?

The point I'm making is that while the red poppy is currently used by the RBL to support British troops, it is also generally percieved by many as a sign of rememberance to war victims in general.

Not in my experience. I generally find that people who use the red poppy, use it to commemorate or support British servicemen who fought in any campaign. It is not used to as a sign of rememberance to victims of war generally. Where is this used? Remember the victims of the Allied bombing of Dresden? Remember the victims of the invasion of Iraq?

Why is it so odd to consider an Irish organisation and the Irish people taking the same symbol and using it instead as a sign of rememberance for Irish soldiers and victims of war?

When said symbol is used for partisan purposes, it is quite difficult to show other uses. Why not a different one or the white poppy? Why insist on the same symbol that is used in a partisan way?

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Is the intention to only commemorate those poor unfortunates who died in Flanders?

If not, surely the colour of the poppy is not driven by the statement 'The red ones are the ones that grow in Flanders'?

If yes, why are we even having this discussion?

The Great War was supposed to have been the war to end wars. That's the sad irony of the red poppy which grew across the bloodiest battlefields of that conflict. I would be with flogen on this-the red poppy can be sold by an irish charity to help irish soldiers who have fought in conflicts around the world. The Canadian and New Zealand legions (etc.) all exist in parallel with the RBL, why can't their be an Irish Legion, selling the internationally recognised poppy here, for irish soldiers and their graves. At present the RBL does this work, why can't we look after our own war graves in Belgium etc..

tallus

murphaph wrote:

At present the RBL does this work, why can't we look after our own war graves in Belgium etc..

The Brits look after anyone who served as far as I know, I worked with 2 guys who served in the Irish guards in the 60's and are still recieving pensions.

flogen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Well, if you learned nothing of a subject matter at school and you read a newspaper article on said subject matter... you have learned something. It may not be the whole spectrum that can be learned about the said subject matter but.....

I didn't say I learned nothing of the matter at school, but the actual first world war was skimmed over if I remember correctly, and I'm not long out of school either (perhaps I can blame my history teacher, although I wasn't steered wrong elsewhere). I learned plenty about the build-up; in fact Bizmarck was always my favourite topic!
As for the newspaper article, my point wasn't that it was or is impossible to find information, but that the state, for a long time, did its best to overlook and ignore the situation. Thankfully most newspapers aren't state or party-owned any more, bar a few very entertaining exceptions.

It is not used for the same general purpose though ie in Singapore they do not use the yellow ribbon to remember folk from Singapore who fought for the US, do they?

I'm not sure; I don't even know how many Singaporese (??) fought for the US... I don't see why it cannot be done, however.

Not in my experience. I generally find that people who use the red poppy, use it to commemorate or support British servicemen who fought in any campaign. It is not used to as a sign of rememberance to victims of war generally. Where is this used? Remember the victims of the Allied bombing of Dresden? Remember the victims of the invasion of Iraq?

There are plenty of countries that already use the red poppy to remember their war dead and not the British army... they may be ex-subjects of the crown, but so what? So are we.
The fact is that they have taken the red poppy and used it to respect their soldiers and no-one elses; why can't we?

When said symbol is used for partisan purposes, it is quite difficult to show other uses. Why not a different one or the white poppy? Why insist on the same symbol that is used in a partisan way?

Because any symbol can be used in a partisan way, for example the Easter Lily, but that doesn't mean they should be ditched.
I've seen the tricolour used in a very partisan way plenty of times, but I'm not calling for it to be changed, instead I'd rather we (the country as a whole) took these symbols out of the realm of partisanism. The same could be done with the red poppy.