The poppy

redspider

The wearing of the 'poppy' causes a lot of problems in both Britain and Ireland, and more than it should perhaps.

My anecdotal evidence is that the wearing of it in England/Britain over the years has increased substantially, say over the last 3 decades. Its not that very long ago that people on TV, etc, didnt wear it at all, and now its the exception. I think that those that sacrificed life and limb in the 1st world war and other wars were equally remembered back then when it wasnt worn, if not more so, as memories were closer.

So overall, the wearing of a poppy emblem is more about show than anything else.

Of course the differences in NI are well known and the wearing of the poppy up there, and indeed in Ireland, was a symbol of 'showing which side you're on'. People wear it more to re-affirm their own identity than for remembering those slain.

Fratton Fred wrote:

If a red Poppy is too “British” then wear a white one, or a shamrock, but the main thing is that those men are not forgotten.

I think the Irish could easily start wearing a green poppy, to remember, if they want to, those from Ireland that died in the 1st world war. But you wont get 100% agreement on that as there are those that think that many of the volunteers shouldm't have been going off to fight with the British at all.

The story of Britain is so intricately linked with our own history and the 1st world war is related to Ireland's independence (and some would say partial!), with the result that this topic will remain a delicate one.

Unlike say wearing whatever emblem the Koreans wear for those that died in their wars on their remembrance day, such an emblem (if it exists - I didnt do 100% research on this) if worn on the streets here in Ireland, no-one would even know, or bat an eye-lid.

But the red poppy signifies a lot more than just remembering the dead and there is no right or wrong answer. People should be left to make up their own minds, but overall, people need to realise the real reasons as to why they are wearing it.

Red-no-poppy-spider

Fratton Fred

csk wrote:

That would fall under the private individual really.
but since you asked, I would ask, when you wear your poppy do you remember all those who died in the war or just those who died defending Britain. Because really everyone who died during the war was a member of the human race.
Now I'm not denouncing your right to just remember those who died defending Britain(if that's what you do, I don't know) I do acknowledge those who fell, I just don't wear the popppy as I don't see it as appropriate.

until I came to Ireland, it never entered my head that a Poppy could be emotive. I have always and always will consider it to be a mark of respect to those people who lost their lives in conflict. I've never considered it to be solely British and never thought it could ever be construed as a poitical symbol (as it seems to be in the north). But then again, the British army has only ever defended my freedom as a British citizen.

I think this is why I find this thread so fascinating.

Diorraing

Fratton Fred wrote:

But then again, the British army has only ever defended my freedom as a British citizen.

Didn't know Saddam Hussein threatened your freedom. Maybe if he actually did have weapons that could hit Britain in 45 mins...:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Diorraing wrote:

Didn't know Saddam Hussein threatened your freedom. Maybe if he actually did have weapons that could hit Britain in 45 mins...:rolleyes:

what i meant is that they have only ever defended my freedom, not violated it.

lets not get on to Saddam, that's a completely different subject.

Hagar

Well they sure as hell violated a few people's freedom over here, so you will have to forgive us if some of us take a slightly different viewpoint. I note from your profile that you moved to Ireland less than 3 months ago. Unless you have lived here before it's going to take time to get into the Irish psyche and understand the ambiguities of Irish politics. We don't even understand them if the truth be know. Hence the long circular threads.

brianthebard

csk wrote:

My point is that you can't take it away.

Personally I'm sick of living with a post colonial mindset that tells me I have to bear a grudge against another nation. If you can't take it away then its a personal problem, not a political one.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

Well they sure as hell violated a few people's freedom over here, so you will have to forgive us if some of us take a slightly different viewpoint. I note from your profile that you moved to Ireland less than 3 months ago. Unless you have lived here before it's going to take time to get into the Irish psyche and understand the ambiguities of Irish politics. We don't even understand them if the truth be know. Hence the long circular threads.

Getting into the Irish psyche is something I am trying to do, which is one of the main reasons I joined these boards.

bear with me if some of my posts are sometimes provocative, they are not meant to be, I am trying to understand.

I love history, but one major problem I have had with Irish history (As I think I have said before) is that to find the truth, you really have to dig deep.

Hagar

Well that's fair enough by me. TBH it puts some of your posts in a different light. A bit late maybe but welcome.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

Well that's fair enough by me. TBH it puts some of your posts in a different light. A bit late maybe but welcome.

wait til I start a thread about Charles Edward Trevelyn, that will be interesting

Hagar

Charles Edward Trevelyan (1807 - 1886)

BBC History Site wrote:

For his work administrating relief to famine-stricken Ireland from 1845-1847 he was named a KCB

You should have heard what he was named around here. I can hardly wait.:D

csk

brianthebard wrote:

Personally I'm sick of living with a post colonial mindset that tells me I have to bear a grudge against another nation. If you can't take it away then its a personal problem, not a political one.

TBH that right there is one of the great myths to come out of the revisionist agenda in this country.

You are equating a stereotypical or cliched view of Nationalism with my position and quite frankly that is wrong.

csk

Fratton Fred wrote:

bear with me if some of my posts are sometimes provocative, they are not meant to be, I am trying to understand.

I kind of thought as much.;) But hey there is nothing wrong with that, it makes for better arguments:D

brianthebard

csk wrote:

TBH that right there is one of the great myths to come out of the revisionist agenda in this country.

You are equating a stereotypical or cliched view of Nationalism with my position and quite frankly that is wrong.

Its not revisionist, but whatever. What I'm equating is a cliched view of nationalism with the fact that you said that it is not possible to remove resentment of Britain from your feelings about the poppy. Why not? You said earlier that your point was that you cannot take it away but you made no effort to explain why. Is it just supposed to be an inherent reason for not wearing the poppy-"I'm Irish, therefore the poppy is the antithesis of what I am?" Certainly doesn't make sense to me.

And btw, of all the people who posted saying they wouldn't wear the poppy you seem one of the most rational, so its not like I'm trying to insult you, I would genuinely like to know answers to these questions, but so far you haven't provided any.

csk

brianthebard wrote:

Its not revisionist, but whatever.

I suppose the revisionist comment goes along with your need to qualify the the statement 'Irish/British feud' with /begrudgery. That comment suggested to me that you see begrudgery as going hand in hand with Nationalism.
This is the myth of the revisionists. maybe I falsely attributed that to you.
But then you go on to state in your last post:

you said that it is not possible to remove resentment of Britain from your feelings about the poppy.

This once again to me suggests you see resentment as going hand in hand with Nationalism as I have never stated that I am resentful of Britain or the poppy.
I did say that there is a resentment of Britain in Ireland and it is a natural one.
I didn't say that I necessarily applied to it, as I don't.

You said earlier that your point was that you cannot take it away but you made no effort to explain why.

Maybe I didn't explain why enough or maybe I misunderstood what you meant by

If you take away the Irish/British feud/begrudery

I took it to mean ignore it
so I said

As has been shown in this thread, the symbolism behind the poppy is ambiguous at best.
As such it is rather naive for people to give the poppy their own personal meaning and then not expect others to do the same.

By this I meant if you ignore the feud/begrudgery then the symbolism is still ambiguous, in the sense that it could as you believe represent the futility of war. but it could also represent as I feel it would, those British/Allied soliders who died in both world wars. Now I personally don't feel any obligation to remember them (that may sound callous but it's what I beleive) and as such still wouldn't wear a poppy.

Is it just supposed to be an inherent reason for not wearing the poppy-"I'm Irish, therefore the poppy is the antithesis of what I am?" Certainly doesn't make sense to me.

That genuinely made me lol

I suppose I would see it as, what relevance does the poppy have to me as an Irish person in the 21st century. I feel it has none.

brianthebard

Glad you found it funny.:D

em it only took ten pages to get a satisfactory answer, but it was worth it(well maybe not completely worth it but hey)

Anyways now that you explained it I can understand. Thanks for that.

csk

I wouldn't be so quick to count them chickens.

As the fella said about the Revolution, 'the more we turned on the wheel of the Revolution, the closer we got back to were we started'.;)

A Dub in Glasgo

brianthebard wrote:

And btw, of all the people who posted saying they wouldn't wear the poppy you seem one of the most rational,

You mean the red poppy or both? If it is the former, why are you equating the poppy with the red one and why does one have to wear only the red one to remember the dead in war?

vesp

csk wrote:

I did say that there is a resentment of Britain in Ireland and it is a natural one.

Not all Irish people resent /are bigoted towards Britain, despite all the anti-British propoganda / history taught in our schools. Do not forget 120,000 people from Ireland volunteered to fight with Britain forces in WW2. That is what this thread is about, their sacrifice. They were all treated well and equally by Britain. A much smaller minority of Irishmen in that era were anti-British. A few IRA men like Sean Russell who attempted to collaborate with the Nazis, or Lord Hawhaw ( originally from Ireland) were the exceptions. Do not forget DeValera executed some IRA , and there was no great outcry.

It is certainly not natural to resent another country the way the IRA "activists" resented Britain.

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

Not all Irish people resent /are bigoted towards Britain, despite all the anti-British propoganda / history taught in our schools. Do not forget 120,000 people from Ireland volunteered to fight with Britain forces in WW2. That is what this thread is about, their sacrifice. They were all treated well and equally by Britain. A much smaller minority of Irishmen in that era were anti-British. A few IRA men like Sean Russell who attempted to collaborate with the Nazis, or Lord Hawhaw ( originally from Ireland) were the exceptions. Do not forget DeValera executed some IRA , and there was no great outcry.

It is certainly not natural to resent another country the way the IRA "activists" resented Britain.

Remarkably Lord Haw Haw was actually a Loyalist and claimed himself to have aided the Black and Tans (who I would be interested to hear if they were beneficiaries of any Poppy proceeds).

Personally I think the wearing of the poppy is a purely personal thing - I don't believe anyone has a right to question anyone as to their wearing of it or not as the case may be, regardless of their position, nationality etc.

In my own case I usually pay whatever the cost of the poppy is to the seller but don't take the poppy, as I do exactly the same for most other similar items (with the exception of daffodil day, which I will wear the daffodil).

csk

csk wrote:

I did say that there is a resentment of Britain in Ireland and it is a natural one.

vesp, did you bother to read what I said after the bit you chose to quote above. Just in case you didn't I'll reproduce it.

csk wrote:

I didn't say that I necessarily applied to it, as I don't.

So, I'm already aware of the fact that not all Irish people are resentful of Britain

vesp wrote:

despite all the anti-British propoganda / history taught in our schools.

I am a relatively recent graduate from "our schools" and I have never been taught Anti-British propaganda.

There was in the past an Historical narrative taught in schools that was dominated by a Nationalistically minded narrative, a narrative that promulgated certain myths that helped foment a form of resentment, of the kind I was alluding to earlier.
The fact is that since the 30's, a movement kick started by academic historians, has revised that Nationalist dominated Narrative and debunked those myths associated with it.

However that movement despite starting out with genuine intentions was, due to various reasons too lenghty to go into here, corrupted (imo). It certainly ended up at the opposite spectrum of the Nationalist narratives it was attepmting to revise and created equally false myths that has fomented equally wrong resentment.

vesp wrote:

Do not forget 120,000 people from Ireland volunteered to fight with Britain forces in WW2. That is what this thread is about, their sacrifice. They were all treated well and equally by Britain.

As I said earlier I have a granduncle who was one of those men.
The fact remains however, that "their sacrifice" was not done in my name or on my behalf as an Irish citizen. Ireland was neutral in WWII. As such I don't wear a poppy, which is what this thread is actually about, BTW.

vesp wrote:

A much smaller minority of Irishmen in that era were anti-British. A few IRA men like Sean Russell who attempted to collaborate with the Nazis, or Lord Hawhaw ( originally from Ireland) were the exceptions. Do not forget DeValera executed some IRA , and there was no great outcry.

Frankly this baffles me. What the IRA's activities during WWII has to do with whether you would or would not wear a poppy is beyond me.

vesp wrote:

It is certainly not natural to resent another country the way the IRA "activists" resented Britain.

I could be pedantic and argue the point that it would depend on what era you are referring to, actually I could argue that given certain contexts it wouldn't matter what era, but I won't.
Suffice to say, it certainly isn't natural and I believe that the IRA judging by the ceasefire, decomissioning, their "standing down" (for lack of a better term) and their willingness to engage in the peace process, suggests that they to have finally realised this too.

vesp

Blackjack wrote:

Remarkably Lord Haw Haw was actually a Loyalist

:rolleyes: Doyou really think someone who was from Co. Galway and who was so anti-British as to make a career out of anti-British attacks was a loyalist ?
Maybe a bit loyal like Sean Russell, who died on the Nazi u-boat ie more loyal to IRA and / or Nazism than other political ideals ?

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

:rolleyes: Doyou really think someone who was from Co. Galway and who was so anti-British as to make a career out of anti-British attacks was a loyalist ?
Maybe a bit loyal like Sean Russell, who died on the Nazi u-boat ie more loyal to IRA and / or Nazism than other political ideals ?

Yes, and I'd do a smidgeon of research before rolling eyes if I were you.

vesp

csk wrote:

I am a relatively recent graduate from "our schools" and I have never been taught Anti-British propaganda.

Good for you. I know of others who had history teachers who done nothing but glorify the rebels of 1916, moan about the famine, the 800 years, why we should burn everything British except their coal etc. Of course not all teachers were like that.

tallus

Teacher I had was from Antrim and went out of his way to put the south down at every possibility.

vesp

tallus wrote:

Teacher I had was from Antrim and went out of his way to put the south down at every possibility.

Would'nt say he lasted long in Tallaght ! Or did he teach in this jurisdiction ?

Blackjack

vesp wrote:

Would'nt say he lasted long in Tallaght ! Or did he teach in this jurisdiction ?

are you just a troll?.

vesp

No, are you ? And back to the point, are you a bit surprised - or would you think it typical - Tallus from Tallaght had a teacher who "was from Antrim and went out of his way to put the south down at every possibility" ?

tallus

vesp wrote:

Would'nt say he lasted long in Tallaght ! Or did he teach in this jurisdiction ?

He did, but it was primary school, so none of us really knew better than to question him.
He's prolly still teaching there now. Wasn't a bad teacher tbh, taught us a lot of interesting stuff.

oscarBravo

Accusations of trolling are against the charter. Don't do that.

Dyr

What really confuses me is all these people who enthuse about a red poppy as a way to remember Irish men who died in the service of a foreign army, dont seem to be at all enthuastic about celebrating the 4th of july or veterans day. Funny that. The Irish men who died in the US armed forces aren't much use as a wedge to push an agenda I guess.

vesp
Do not forget 120,000 people from Ireland volunteered to fight with Britain forces in WW2. That is what this thread is about, their sacrifice. They were all treated well and equally by Britain.

Not true. I knew at least one irish man who served in the royal navy during WW2 and was treated as a pariah by the rest of the ships crew as he was an irish catholic. You can be sure he wasnt the only one.