The poppy

Glenbhoy

The thing wrote:

I don't know, I'm not an accountant with the British War graves commission, nor associated with it in anyway. However as an Irishman I feel compelled to support our war dead, as I do also by supporting Saint Patricks day. But then again you are probably too ignorant to know that the origins of that day is to celebrate Irish soldiers service in the United States Army.

Forgive my ignorance here, but are you saying that St. Patricks day emanates from the US and was initially a day of celebration of the service of Irish soldiers in the US Armed forces?????

LordSutch

YES ~ and so did everybody else at the Remembrance service yesterday at St Patricks Cathedral Dublin (except the Mary McAleese)!

As a member of the C of I we always wear the Poppy on or around the 11th/11th, also interesting to see some non Anglican Government ministers wearing the Poppy.

I think its a fitting tribute to the FIFTY FIVE THOUSAND Irish men who lost their lives in Wars from the Great War onwards .........................

In case there is any confusion about the origins of the wearing of the Poppy, its used as a symbol because when the Guns fell silent and the smoke died down on Flanders fields (Great War) the disturbed ground started to sprout millions of Red Poppies and it was rightly thought that wearing a real or artificial Poppy would be a fitting tribute to those millions who died!

And I agree 100%

Tabnabs

I don't wear the poppy but I too have relatives who died in WW1 (in Flanders, fighting for Canada). But the RBL has an office in Dublin and AFAIK they have a hand in running/financing the Leopardstown Park Hospital http://www.lph.ie/

So some of the money goes to a very good Irish cause...

lostexpectation

www.digitalspy.co.uk is doing a running check on who is not wearing a poppy on tv or not, including vernon kay , dermot o'leary, louis walsh who agreed to wear one this year after getting flack last year...

none there seem to recognise the poppy represents more then just ww1/ww2 actions

A Dub in Glasgo

DigitalSpy wrote:

X-factor star Louis Walsh wore a poppy on last night's show after bowing to pressure from critics.

The show's judge sparked a number of complaints to ITV last year after refusing to wear a poppy and only agreed to wear one this year just minutes before going on air.

"Louis is a very important figure among young people," Shadow Homeland Security Minister Patrick Mercer, a former solider, told The People. "If we can't depend on stars like him to set an example who can we rely on?

"If youth icons don't honour the dead or remember what was done for their freedom, then it is little wonder that younger people are similarly in the dark."

It is this type of stuff that led Jon Snow to label it 'poppy fascism'

panda100

ArthurF wrote:

YES ~ and so did everybody else at the Remembrance service yesterday at St Patricks Cathedral Dublin (except the Mary McAleese)!

As a member of the C of I we always wear the Poppy on or around the 11th/11th, also interesting to see some non Anglican Government ministers wearing the Poppy.

I think its a fitting tribute to the FIFTY FIVE THOUSAND Irish men who lost their lives in Wars from the Great War onwards .........................

In case there is any confusion about the origins of the wearing of the Poppy, its used as a symbol because when the Guns fell silent and the smoke died down on Flanders fields (Great War) the disturbed ground started to sprout millions of Red Poppies and it was rightly thought that wearing a real or artificial Poppy would be a fitting tribute to those millions who died!

And I agree 100%

I really wanted to wear my poppy with pride but I have been living over here for 6 years now and they never sell them anywhere. Many Brave Irish men died in world war one too.Its important for us to never forget them either.

flogen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is this type of stuff that led Jon Snow to label it 'poppy fascism'

Couldn't agree more; people shouldn't be bullied into wearing them; even the BBC's approach is a little odd, but it seems to be better than the one at ITV.

walrusgumble

try to forget the sinn fein connection here, but if so many people are concerned with remembering the dead, well why do most people in ireland not wear the white lilly on easter sunday, to remember OUR founding leaders.

i know it is over 80 years now, but ( and i do not mean to offend any british-irish here) but whilst britain were off to beat william 11 and co and saving small nations, our grandparents we getting kicked out on to the side of the road, ripped off through land rates.. you all know the auld story. these things will not be forgotten,

dublin in glasgow you recently made a comment on your irration of nationalist (fair enough you are entitled to it and i am sure you will take it) but less of the arrogant remarks about people not reading articles and not knowing the orginal idea of paddys day (i assumed most people knew that thou)

to be quiet truthfull, i still find it hard to understand why irish nationalist went off to fight for the empire whilst they were needed during 1916, (before anyone jumps to attack, yes i know that it was only after this event nationalism rose, and yes i know many people went because of poverty and seeking adventure.

flogen

walrusgumble wrote:

try to forget the sinn fein connection here, but if so many people are concerned with remembering the dead, well why do most people in ireland not wear the white lilly on easter sunday, to remember OUR founding leaders.

The problem is that it is a party political symbol at the moment, I'd happily wear one if it was taken out of the hands of political parties and used by a charitable organisation instead... the reason I won't wear one now is 1) I'd be giving money to SF or RSF and 2) even if I didn't buy one from them it's seen as a symbol of support for the party more than the event it's supposed to commemorate.

to be quiet truthfull, i still find it hard to understand why irish nationalist went off to fight for the empire whilst they were needed during 1916, (before anyone jumps to attack, yes i know that it was only after this event nationalism rose, and yes i know many people went because of poverty and seeking adventure.

Well how were they supposed to know they were "needed" in Ireland? It's not like the Rising was common knowledge long before it happened or anything.
Also many Irishmen fought in WW1 because they saw it as a method of giving leverage to the home rule debate (and perhaps even further independence); I guess the idea was that doing Britain this favour would force them into giving something back.

A Dub in Glasgo

walrusgumble wrote:

dublin in glasgow you recently made a comment on your irration of nationalist (fair enough you are entitled to it and i am sure you will take it) but less of the arrogant remarks about people not reading articles and not knowing the orginal idea of paddys day (i assumed most people knew that thou)

?

Zebra3

Don't support Britain and her war criminals.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya/dp/1844135489/ref=pd_sim_b_2/202-5880177-0007824

brianthebard

TheGooner wrote:

Nationalism at its most irrational....

True that. I posted an almost identical thread on another board about a week ago and got the same responses. People seem to think that the poppy directly funds the war effort in Britain and that by wearing one we are permitting British soldiers to kill innocent Nationalists....The lack of political motivation behind the poppy, it's non-British origins and its common usage in almost all countries which fought in WWI just doesn't seem to matter to them.

fly_agaric

brianthebard wrote:

its common usage in almost all countries which fought in WWI just doesn't seem to matter to them.

So the Americans and the Turks and the Germans all wear the poppy too?

What about all the non-white countries that were part of the Empire?

Are people in these countries all pinning on their poppy in November aswell?

brianthebard

Well Americans celebrate Remembrance day under a different name, but the same day. I did state that most countries wear it, such as Canada, New Zealand, Australia, France and Britain. Possibly more but I will have to check. New Zealand commemorate it on a different day due to the French veterans group shipping the artifical poppies too late the first time year it was introduced. But it's still the same poppy with the same intention behind it.

Edit: I should have said that most countries on the allied side wear poppies.

A Dub in Glasgo

brianthebard wrote:

True that. I posted an almost identical thread on another board about a week ago and got the same responses. People seem to think that the poppy directly funds the war effort in Britain and that by wearing one we are permitting British soldiers to kill innocent Nationalists....The lack of political motivation behind the poppy, it's non-British origins and its common usage in almost all countries which fought in WWI just doesn't seem to matter to them.

Whilet ignoring the fact that the red poppy sold in Ireland does actually support British servicemen who did actually fight in NI (& Iraq & Afganistan & Kenya etc)
The poppy is used by all countries which fought in WWI, that is news to me. Care to expand?

brianthebard

Yeah.I put almost before all.

Dalfiatach

Glenbhoy wrote:

Forgive my ignorance here, but are you saying that St. Patricks day emanates from the US and was initially a day of celebration of the service of Irish soldiers in the US Armed forces?????

Paddy's Day as we know it now with parades and a general piss-up, yes. It originated in the (Northern) Army of the Potomac during the US Civil War. Prior to the Civil War the Irish were looked down on by the existing WASP establishment in the US (see the Know-Nothings/Nativists and their attitudes to the Irish pre-Civil War) and seen as alien, disloyal, and a Papist threat of Vatican domination of America (yes, Paisley-style attitudes were alive and well in the US in the mid 19th century)

So many Irish fought on both sides in the Civil War, and they produced so many war heroes and leaders that anti-Irish feeling was greatly lessened by the time the war was over. And the great festival that the Irish regiments in the Army of the Potomac used to throw every March 17th became part of mainstream culture in the large cities of the NE, and from there to the rest of the US.....and from there back to Ireland, where traditionally Paddy's Day had been a very po-faced solemn religious festival.

Or so the story goes, anyway.

LordSutch

As a matter of interest, all proceeds collected by the Poppy Appeal Fund in the Irish Republic go to the widows & families of those service men speciffically from the ROI (not from the UK) ~ and If there happens to be a shortfall in the collections in any particular year then the Earl Haig fund in London is asked to step-in and cover the shortfall.

I got this info off the Radio the other day, as people were asking "Why Mary MacAleese wasn't wearing the Poppy at the annual Remembrance service" so the Poppy Appeal (ROI Rep) gave a good account of the Poppy and why we should contribute to it & the Irish War widows.

Erin Go Brath

Zebra3 wrote:

Don't support Britain and her war criminals.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya/dp/1844135489/ref=pd_sim_b_2/202-5880177-0007824

Agree with this. The poppy is not part of Irish culture, and by wearing it anyone is showing support for a foreign Imperialist regime.

arybvtcw0eolkf

TheGooner wrote:

Isnt it to do with the amount of poppies that blossom on the battle fields every year too?

Yes it is, its nothing to do with blood.

I'd like to wear one, I think its a great idea.

But then I'd be remembering those British soldiers who died trying to defeat the Irish here at home.

I'm a soldeir, I morne the loss of all soldiers. But I won't 'remember' those who fell occupying my land, its that simple.

LordSutch

Alas Mairt, its not that simple at all, and you either wear the Poppy with pride (as I do) to remember the Thirty, to Fifty thousand Irish men who lost their lives in the 'Great War' + WWII + Lebanon or you dont .....................

And as you can see from this thread there are many complicated reasons for being Pro or Anti remembrance, & unfortunately it is still a very deep & complicated topic here in the Republic.

InFront

Like Panda (I think it was) I wanted to wear the poppy, but didnt see anywhere selling them, however my brother got one from an old woman who was apparently selling them on grafton street around the 11th.

I thought it was very sad that a woman as intelligent and well read as Mary McAleese chose not to wear the poppy in St Patricks for the rememberance service, a service attended by all of the major Irish religious leaders and religious groups here.

I do not come from a particularly pro-British family, and being of Pakistani blood, I think I can appreciate the Irish aversion to Britishness in some respects but in other ways it is often baffling. I have come to terms with the fact that there is an inevitable British aspect to my identity both as a Pakistani and as an English-speaking-coffee-drinking-umbrella-carrying irish citizen.

Most Irish people that I know of here feel uncomfortable with the British aspect of their national and personal identity, or deny it completely. This is petty and childish. None of us here today have genuine reason to be offended by Britain the country or by the poppy, we did not go through a fight for independance against an old, dead enemy, nor did we endure the world wars, thank God.
But our predecessors is citizenry (Irish, English or whatever) did endure the war, mostly they were not for the Germans nor against them, just blank, innocent soliers who fell to an undignified death, and that should be acknowledged.

There is a link here to a very well known poem by the great war poet Wilfred Owen that I think puts into context the unspeakable vulgarity and suffering of war. These were not Irish or British soldiers, nor political warmongers, but men and boys, who died in good faith for the generations to come, and whether they were shot in Belfast, or Limerick, or Flanders, deserve our apologies and our sympathy.

Flex

InFront wrote:

Most Irish people that I know of here feel uncomfortable with the British aspect of their national and personal identity, or deny it completely. This is petty and childish.

What do you mean by that?


And NO, I would never wear a poppy. I had 3 ancestors on my fathers side of the family who went to fight in WW1 and 2 of them died (dont know about my mothers side) and I dont think theyd appreciate me 'honouring' them by supporting the British Legion. They fought not because of any loyalty or fidility to Britain or the British monarch, or any 'kinship' with the British, they were under the impression Ireland would never be able to achieve independence from Britain, and the best we could hope for was limited self-government while remaining under British rule, so thanks to John Redmond they went off and joined the British and 2 of them died. I have no problem remembering Irishmen who died in the 2 world wars, but I wont remember or honor or pay for any British soldier who has died. Why cant we do something to just remember Irish soldiers, like wearing shamrocks dyed red or something?

Flex

ArthurF wrote:

Alas Mairt, its not that simple at all, and you either wear the Poppy with pride (as I do) to remember the Thirty, to Fifty thousand Irish men who lost their lives in the 'Great War' + WWII + Lebanon or you dont .....................

And as you can see from this thread there are many complicated reasons for being Pro or Anti remembrance, & unfortunately it is still a very deep & complicated topic here in the Republic.

Hypothetically, if there was a chance to remember only Irishmen who died by wearing shamrocks or something like that, rather than wearing the poppy, which would you wear?

InFront

Flex wrote:

What do you mean by that?

Good or bad, Britain is a part of our history, Ireland has a stronger link to that country more so than any other state in the world. We are like the divorced couple who had to choose whether to exist amicably or resentfully as next door neighbours. Thankfully, government policy has tended to choose the former and it is only a matter of time before Irish society inevitably folows suit completely.
Whatever about Ireland being close to Boston or Berlin, what about Birmingham?

By the way, that was just to answer your question. The question of the poppy in itself has very little to do with Britishness. Its about remembering unfortunate, dead soldiers and affording them a bit of respect and dignity that was so lacking in their deaths.
I dont see why an Irishman would have a problem showing some respect to a British soldier murdered here by republicans/ nationalists, when the reality is his any given soldier was just some faceless young father or son from some poor British terraced home with his own fears and interests. What care had he for either our independence or our servitude?
The poppy is not about glossing over past wrongs by a spate of governments, it is about acknowledging the wrongs done to the otherwise forgotten soldiers of the tragedy of war by such governments.

Diorraing

Why would I? I don't think the Kaiser had any great plans for Ireland. WW1 was one of the most needless wars ever fought: it was not a war of good v evil as WW2 was. It wasn't a war of liberation, but a war sparked off by an overly complicated treaty system and the chain reaction which followed Arch-duke Ferdinand's Assasination. If I am to remember someone who fought and died, I like to remember the reasons they gave their lives: for instance those who died in the 1798 rebellion, the American War of Independence, WW2 etc.
Unfortunately WW1 does not fall within those "just wars" - I will not remember those who sought to protect the imperialistic asperations of the European powers during WW1

murphaph

Diorraing wrote:

Unfortunately WW1 does not fall within those "just wars" - I will not remember those who sought to protect the imperialistic asperations of the European powers during WW1

Dunno about this bit. There are many and varied reasons why men enlisted (or were conscripted!) during WWI. At the top level of course it was a land grab, but so are most wars, at the top level, including WWII. I am sure of course that many did sign up to simply fight for their empire-including irishmen fighting in wht was our army for what was our empire. Not something I'd be in tune with but it was a time of empires. What seems revolting now was acceptable then. We considered ourselves racially superior to the africans we conquered at the time etc. etc. I'm not saying this should change your opinion on the above but it's another angle is all. I suppose the poppy wrt WWI remembers the sheer futility-almost all the borders remained as they had been before the war started so nobody even 'won' that war, yet millions died in wretched conditions.

A Dub in Glasgo

A much better rememberance of the stupidity & futility of WWI is Blackadder Goes Forth. Much more powerful than a Poppy. WWI was not a noble or just war in my opinion, very much the opposite.

LordSutch

In reply to post #85 "The Poppy" because it was the poppy that grew in Flanders Fields when the Guns fell silent, and the smoke died down!

"On the 11th Hour of the 11th Day of the 11th Month ~ we will remember them".

landser

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

A much better rememberance of the stupidity & futility of WWI is Blackadder Goes Forth.

Interesting, but i think I'd look a bit daft with a DVD attached to my collar

I wear a poppy, every year on the 11th November. I had two great uncles in WW1, one of whom was killed. I am not a peace-nic, nor a warmonger. some wars are justified, some not. I am not a west - brit, but an Irish nationalist

I buy it from the RBL, who maintain the Irish war graves, as the Irish Govt. do not maintain the graves of the Irish Regiments, and therefore I have no choice.

If the Government started to maintain the graves of the Irish regiments' fallen, in whatever conflict, Boer War, WW1 WW2, and sold poppies to that end and perhaps printed an ÉIRE, on the centre, that may solve some people's problem of associating themselves with Brits. Similarly, this could be used to maintain the graves of the war dead of 1798 (the croppy acre was a sad sight until 1998), 1916, and 1918 -21 as well as the graves of the UN dead