The poppy

csk

Fratton Fred wrote:

so now we know what the Royal British Legion do. I'm pretty sure every country around the world has a similar organisation.

That was what I was asking, do the equivalent organisations in other countries use the poppy?

the fact is when you pay x amount for one of those poppies from the British Legion, the definition supplied by Adub in Glasgow, is what you are buying into.

I couldn't in good conscience buy into that.

Now I'm not advocating that you can't, its a very personal thing but I don't nor won't.

brianthebard

csk wrote:

That was what I was asking, do the equivalent organisations in other countries use the poppy?

the fact is when you pay x amount for one of those poppies from the British Legion, the definition supplied by Adub in Glasgow, is what you are buying into.

I couldn't in good conscience buy into that.

Now I'm not advocating that you can't, its a very personal thing but I don't nor won't.

The poppy is used in France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Britain, with possibly a few other countries. What adubinglasgow has pointed out is that the British veterans' organization makes money from the poppies to fund their charity. It doesn't say that the money from France goes to Britain. Likewise the Irish money doesn't go to Britain, as was outlined a few pages ago. You said earlier that it has been hijacked by the British-I don't see this to be true. What is true is that we see it more in the British media than any others, but that is only because of the prevalence of British media in Ireland.

Also what adubinglasgow failed to highlight was this;

The Legion was founded in 1921 as a voice for the ex-Service community and over 450,000 members continue to ensure that this voice does not go unheard. Although the needs of ex-Service people have changed over the years, we are still there to safeguard their welfare, interests and memory.

The voice of ex-servicemen, there to safeguard their welfare, interests and memory? Does that sound like they are funding British wars?

A Dub in Glasgo

brianthebard wrote:

The poppy is used in France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Britain, with possibly a few other countries. What adubinglasgow has pointed out is that the British veterans' organization makes money from the poppies to fund their charity. It doesn't say that the money from France goes to Britain. Likewise the Irish money doesn't go to Britain, as was outlined a few pages ago. You said earlier that it has been hijacked by the British-I don't see this to be true. What is true is that we see it more in the British media than any others, but that is only because of the prevalence of British media in Ireland.

The poppy sold in Ireland & Britian is sold by The Royal British Legion. I have no idea about who sells the poppy in the other countries you listed.

Also what adubinglasgow failed to highlight was this;

I linked to the page

Does that sound like they are funding British wars?

Who is claiming the The Royal British Legion fund the wars?

murphaph

Diorraing wrote:

And if it wasn't for the English we'd be speaking Irish now.

We must still owe them for that

lostexpectation

i see the other day it was red ribbon for aids 'facism' day

Diorraing

murphaph wrote:

We must still owe them for that

Perhaps, if one is a philistine

murphaph

Diorraing wrote:

Perhaps, if one is a philistine

What's the irish for philistine?

Fratton Fred

murphaph wrote:

What's the irish for philistine?

Ejit??:D

csk

brianthebard wrote:

The poppy is used in France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Britain, with possibly a few other countries. What adubinglasgow has pointed out is that the British veterans' organization makes money from the poppies to fund their charity. It doesn't say that the money from France goes to Britain. Likewise the Irish money doesn't go to Britain, as was outlined a few pages ago.

I'm not particularly bothered about where the money goes it is a worthy charity for British people to look after those who died in Britian's name.

my problem is that when you buy a poppy from the British Legion you're not just helping a charity you're also buying a symbol. A symbol that represents those who served and are serving in British Armed forces, including those who fought in both world wars and those who fought in Northern Ireland among other things.

the people who advocate wearing the poppy seem to see it as a universal symbol, I don't see how that is so especially the British Legion poppy. So far from this thread only Allied countries have been shown to use the poppy as a symbol.
in the light of the definition supplied by a a dub in glasgow It seems rather selective on their part to endorse the symbol of the poppy as just remembering those who fell in both world wars.

Now I understand where people like Fratton Fred are coming from being English they are fully entitled to wear it and if he/she passed me on the street wearing one I would have no problem even without knowing their nationality.
But as an Irish person given the history and all that and the definition supplied in this thread by a dub in glasgow, I find the symbol of the poppy a wholly inapropriate one.

You said earlier that it has been hijacked by the British-I don't see this to be true. What is true is that we see it more in the British media than any others, but that is only because of the prevalence of British media in Ireland.

maybe hijacked was a little harsh but it was said in presumtion to Fratton Fred assertion that the Poppy was universal. Giving the "poppy facism" aluded to earlier in the thread and the "encouragemant" of prominent people in Britian to wear the poppy(including our own Louis Walsh) it led me to use the word hijacked.

The voice of ex-servicemen, there to safeguard their welfare, interests and memory? Does that sound like they are funding British wars?

I have never said at any time nor do I believe that buying a poppy funds British wars. as I said earlier my problem is with the symbolism of the poppy and how given that symbolism it is whollly innapropriate for me at least as an Irish person to wear one.

Fratton Fred

for info, the RBL does not maintain the cemetries of Britain's war dead. That is carried out by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and is part funded by several commonwealth counties.

I've visited several of their cemetries and memorials and they are very sobering places. For example, The Menin Gate memorial which stand on the eastern side of Ypres holds the names of 54,000 men who died in Flanders and have no known grave. Every evening at 8pm the road through the gate is blocked and buglers from the Ypres Firebrigade sound the last post.

Not far from Ypres is the Tyne Cott Memorial and cemetry. The tyne Cott memorial contains the names of 35,000 men with no known grave and the Cemetry there has nearly 12,000 graves.

That is over 100,000 fatalities These are UK and commonwealth names only (remembering that, at the time Ireland was part of the UK, so there are memorials to many Irish men and their regiments there as well). There are other memorials for the Belgian, French and German war dead around the area as well and this was just one part of the frontline.

Forget for a moment any history between Britain and Ireland and take an objective look at the number of dead. This is why I wear a poppy so that those men and their sacrifice is not forgotten. If a red Poppy is too “British” then wear a white one, or a shamrock, but the main thing is that those men are not forgotten.

If you have an interest in such things, take a look at their website, www.cwgc.org.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote:

for info, the RBL does not maintain the cemetries of Britain's war dead. That is carried out by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and is part funded by several commonwealth counties.

I've visited several of their cemetries and memorials and they are very sobering places. For example, The Menin Gate memorial which stand on the eastern side of Ypres holds the names of 54,000 men who died in Flanders and have no known grave. Every evening at 8pm the road through the gate is blocked and buglers from the Ypres Firebrigade sound the last post.

Not far from Ypres is the Tyne Cott Memorial and cemetry. The tyne Cott memorial contains the names of 35,000 men with no known grave and the Cemetry there has nearly 12,000 graves.

That is over 100,000 fatalities These are UK and commonwealth names only (remembering that, at the time Ireland was part of the UK, so there are memorials to many Irish men and their regiments there as well). There are other memorials for the Belgian, French and German war dead around the area as well and this was just one part of the frontline.

Forget for a moment any history between Britain and Ireland and take an objective look at the number of dead. This is why I wear a poppy so that those men and their sacrifice is not forgotten. If a red Poppy is too “British” then wear a white one, or a shamrock, but the main thing is that those men are not forgotten.

If you have an interest in such things, take a look at their website, www.cwgc.org.

Which is fair enough although the poppy is sold by the British Legion and their objectives are set out on their website therefore you are not funding the maintenance of war graves by buying the red poppy

I do wear a white poppy, it is obvious from this thread and other threads on this subject that there are people out there who would rather make the point that the only way to remember the dead of war is to wear the red poppy than accept there are other ways to remember all who have died in war (the red poppy does not even do this). I have always said that the best way of remembering the dead of WWI is to watch Blackadder Goes Forth on remembrance day. Other people prefer everyone to conform and wear a red poppy publically which is the reason why Jon Snow phrased 'poppy fascism'.

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Which is fair enough although the poppy is sold by the British Legion and their objectives are set out on their website therefore you are not funding the maintenance of war graves by buying the red poppy

I do wear a white poppy, it is obvious from this thread and other threads on this subject that there are people out there who would rather make the point that the only way to remember the dead of war is to wear the red poppy than accept there are other ways to remember all who have died in war (the red poppy does not even do this). I have always said that the best way of remembering the dead of WWI is to watch Blackadder Goes Forth on remembrance day. Other people prefer everyone to conform and wear a red poppy publically which is the reason why Jon Snow phrased 'poppy fascism'.

Blackadder goes forth is brilliant. It really shows the futility of the whole thing, especially the end of the last episode.

brianthebard

csk wrote:

I'm not particularly bothered about where the money goes it is a worthy charity for British people to look after those who died in Britian's name.

my problem is that when you buy a poppy from the British Legion you're not just helping a charity you're also buying a symbol. A symbol that represents those who served and are serving in British Armed forces, including those who fought in both world wars and those who fought in Northern Ireland among other things.

the people who advocate wearing the poppy seem to see it as a universal symbol, I don't see how that is so especially the British Legion poppy. So far from this thread only Allied countries have been shown to use the poppy as a symbol.
in the light of the definition supplied by a a dub in glasgow It seems rather selective on their part to endorse the symbol of the poppy as just remembering those who fell in both world wars.

I understand now thanks for clearing that up.

Now I understand where people like Fratton Fred are coming from being English they are fully entitled to wear it and if he/she passed me on the street wearing one I would have no problem even without knowing their nationality.
But as an Irish person given the history and all that and the definition supplied in this thread by a dub in glasgow, I find the symbol of the poppy a wholly inapropriate one.

Ok so basically what the issue boils down to is nationalism here. Personally I don't believe in nationalism, so I have no problem with wearing the poppy or others wearing it. (this isn't just aimed at you csk)

maybe hijacked was a little harsh but it was said in presumtion to Fratton Fred assertion that the Poppy was universal. Giving the "poppy facism" aluded to earlier in the thread and the "encouragemant" of prominent people in Britian to wear the poppy(including our own Louis Walsh) it led me to use the word hijacked.

Understood, I can accept that.

I have never said at any time nor do I believe that buying a poppy funds British wars. as I said earlier my problem is with the symbolism of the poppy and how given that symbolism it is whollly innapropriate for me at least as an Irish person to wear one.

I didn't mean to aim that statement at you, just those people who seem to be trying to make a link between the two things.


So really does this whole thread boil down to whether you believe in nationalism or not?

A Dub in Glasgo

Does the British Legion red poppy remember civilians that have been killed in war? does it remember everyone (including enemy soldiers) that have been killed in war? If it does, it is not nationalistic, if it does not then red poppy is nationalistic.

LordSutch

I wear the Poppy with pride every year (on or about the 11th) & I also attend the 'massive' annual remembrance service in St Patricks Cathedral Dublin! everybody wears a Poppy as a mark of respect including the two 'high profile' Government ministers, but alas, the 'current' President still refuses to wear a Poppy, & neither does she lay a Poppy wreath (which does seem very strange) considering that she is normally standing beside & under a whole load of Union Flags, the absence of "Her Poppy" is always very conspicuous by its absence which gives the impression that she is on some kind of half hearted mission to reach-out to those of us who do remember the War dead (but only on Her terms)!


On the 11th Hour, of the 11th Day, of the 11th Month ~ we will remember them.

brianthebard

I was referring to Irish nationalism.
Personally the poppy is a remembrance of the futility of war. But you don't have to believe that if you don't want to.

csk

Fratton Fred I have no doubt of the solemnity of the intention in remebering those who fell. My problem is I view the poppy as an inapropriate symbol for that rememberance in Ireland at least.

brianthebard wrote:

So really does this whole thread boil down to whether you believe in nationalism or not?

I think maybe it boils down to: What, if any, debt of rememberance we owe those who fell in both world wars, as a private individual and as memeber of a state.

arthurf wrote:

I wear the Poppy with pride every year (on or about the 11th) & I also attend the 'massive' annual remembrance service in St Patricks Cathedral Dublin! everybody wears a Poppy as a mark of respect including the two 'high profile' Government ministers, but alas, the 'current' President still refuses to wear a Poppy, & neither does she lay a Poppy wreath (which does seem very strange) considering that she is normally standing beside & under a whole load of Union Flags, the absence of "Her Poppy" is always very conspicuous by its absence which gives the impression that she is on some kind of half hearted mission to reach-out to those of us who do remember the War dead (but only on Her terms)!

Mary McAleese as President of The Republic of Ireland is a symbol. A symbol that in the grand scheme of things should be far more important to the peolpe of Ireland than that of the poppy.

There should be no expectation, onus or obligation on her as President to wear the poppy.

Fratton Fred

I think maybe it boils down to: What, if any, debt of rememberance we owe those who fell in both world wars, as a private individual and as memeber of a state.

What about as a member of the human race?

We owe it not only to those who have suffered, but to our children so that they learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of our forefathers

Mary McAleese as President of The Republic of Ireland is a symbol. A symbol that in the grand scheme of things should be far more important to the peolpe of Ireland than that of the poppy.

There should be no expectation, onus or obligation on her as President to wear the poppy.

Maybe not, but not wearing a Poppy is as big a statement as wearing one. I think it is innapropriate for a figurehead such as Mary McAleese to make a statement like this without justifying it.

If she wore a shamrock and publicly stated that it was to remember the Irish sacrifice, then fair play to her.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote:

Maybe not, but not wearing a Poppy is as big a statement as wearing one.

Absolutely correct. It says, "I live in a free country I have the right to wear or not to wear a poppy. I am exercising that right. You do not have the right to ask me to justify my choice."

vesp

ArthurF wrote:

alas, the 'current' President still refuses to wear a Poppy, & neither does she lay a Poppy wreath (which does seem very strange) considering that she is normally standing beside & under a whole load of Union Flags, the absence of "Her Poppy" is always very conspicuous by its absence which gives the impression that she is on some kind of half hearted mission to reach-out to those of us who do remember the War dead (but only on Her terms)!
.[/I]

I agree. Is is a poor show that just for an hour or so she could not bring herself to honour the hundreds of thousands of Irish people who volunteered and served proudly in Europe etc. But for their like we would probably be under Nazi rule. Still, what would you expect from Mary the mouth ? She is a nationalist from N. Ireland......which is a shame because people from all backgrounds made sacrifices in war. I know some who served and they all got along well in the British forces. They do not think well of our president.

Hagar

vesp wrote:

Still, what would you expect from Mary the mouth ? She is a nationalist from N. Ireland.

Show some respect for our President. Post reported for abuse.

brianthebard

Hagar wrote:

Show some respect for our President. Post reported for abuse.

In fairness, respect should be earned. Personally I don't think much of her, although perhaps you do. And there's been worse comments made about actual users on this thread, as opposed to political leaders who aren't even on boards...I very much doubt the pres will be losing any sleep over that comment.

If you take away the Irish/British feud/begrudery that many posters seem to hold on this thread, is there any reason not to wear the poppy?

Diorraing

brianthebard wrote:

If you take away the Irish/British feud/begrudery that many posters seem to hold on this thread, is there any reason not to wear the poppy?

Yes, because in case you haven't realised most anti-poppy posters haven't engaged in British begrudery.
The red poppy provides "financial, social and emotional support to millions who have served or who are currently serving in the British Armed Forces, and their dependants." (from wikipedia).
I don't agree with a lot of what the British Armed Forces do, so on that ground I wouldn't wear a poppy.
Secondly, even if the poppy was just a symbol of rememberance, I fail to see the logic behind wearing it. It sets a strange precedent. Where do we draw the line? If we wear poppies to commemorate those who fought in WW1 purely because they fought and died for something they believed in, do we wear poppies for all such people? For Al Queda? For every single person who died for his/her beliefs?
If not, then we must ask ourselves what was so special about WW1? And what was??? What was so extraordinary about WW1? What differed it from the hundreds of other wars that have been fought over the millenia?

No, I will not be wearing the poppy this year, next year or any other year. Call me anti-British all you like, I have given coherent, reasoned arguments for never wearing the poppy

Diorraing

murphaph wrote:

What's the irish for philistine?

Filistíneach, http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=philistine

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

Absolutely correct. It says, "I live in a free country I have the right to wear or not to wear a poppy. I am exercising that right. You do not have the right to ask me to justify my choice."

you do when she is your President.

Why go to the service in the first place if she does not agree with the sentiment?

except of course that she got her face on TV and there was probably a free lunch afterwards.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

Show some respect for our President. Post reported for abuse.

I'm confused, which bit is abusive the bit about her being a nationalist or the bit about her being from Northern Ireland?

csk

frattonfred wrote:

What about as a member of the human race?

That would fall under the private individual really.
but since you asked, I would ask, when you wear your poppy do you remember all those who died in the war or just those who died defending Britain. Because really everyone who died during the war was a member of the human race.
Now I'm not denouncing your right to just remember those who died defending Britain(if that's what you do, I don't know) I do acknowledge those who fell, I just don't wear the popppy as I don't see it as appropriate.

vesp wrote:

But for their like we would probably be under Nazi rule.

As has already been stated Ireland was neutral. As a Nation we had made our bed, so to speak, and were in the case of British defeat, fully prepared to lie in said bed. the fact is we were the inadvertant beneficiary of British victory.
Had the war took an equally different turn, we could be ruled by Britain. Maybe you would like that I wouldn't.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote:

you do when she is your President.

Why go to the service in the first place if she does not agree with the sentiment?

except of course that she got her face on TV and there was probably a free lunch afterwards.

Plaese feel free to put the question to her Excellency then. This link might help you.

I'm sure the President is not dependant on free lunches and is not amused by the novelty of getting on TV.

To answer the question about abuse, the "Mary the mouth" bit was abusive. If I were to refer to another poster in those terms it could be considered abusive so we should extend the same level of courtesy to our President. You may not like the individual who is in office but the office itself is deserving of respect.

csk

brianthebard wrote:

If you take away the Irish/British feud/begrudery that many posters seem to hold on this thread, is there any reason not to wear the poppy?

My point is that you can't take it away.
As has been shown in this thread, the symbolism behind the poppy is ambiguous at best.
As such it is rather naive for people to give the poppy their own personal meaning and then not expect others to do the same.

frattonfred wrote:

Why go to the service in the first place if she does not agree with the sentiment?

she goes precisely because she agrees with the sentiment.
the fact remains that the poppy cannot escape any 'British' implications therefore as President of a Republic that was achievd in the face of British opposition and while the poppy cannot escape the 'British' implication then she cannot wear one. I believe her stance in this regard is only right and proper.

tallus

Why should our president wear a poppy ? It's not representative of this nation, she is remembering the war dead by attending the service and that should be enough. I have yet to see anyone wearing a red poppy in this country which is an indication to me that it would only be a small minority of people who actually take the issue to heart.
There's a rememberance day to remember the dead, and as for the poppy being a reminder of the futility of war, well maybe it is, but mankind still has not learned despite that fact.
I dont have a problem with people wearing a poppy, obviously it's a personal choice for them, it just doesn't strike me as being an essentially Irish thing and I dont think it ever will be.