Laying down AA Pre Flop

DeVore

Firstly this isnt about Flipper and his personality. I've travelled to tournies abroad with him and he's a sound lad. He's not arrogant but he believes he's the best in any tournament and the same could (and SHOULD) be said for just about any winning tournament player here.

Flipper (and Co!)'s game varies pretty wildly to mine. Does that make him wrong? I dunno, I know I believe I'm right so go figure the rest. I dont think enough of you have realised that Flipper has said he knows this particular move was wrong. If not then, at least now.

I think Daithio's question is a good one, I suspect on the payout structure he detailed it would be quite bad to fold aces there in that situation. I wonder if there IS a payout structure that WOULD make sense to fold aces simply because it was so bizarre and contorted. Where is the break even point?

Can we get back to discussing that?

Oh and The Sherriff... welcome to Boards, this is just our monthly hissy fit when all the "top players" have the painters in

DeV.

henbane

Daithio wrote:

Around 35% to 40% of of the entire chips each actually, with the other 20% to 30% spread around very evenly among 6 really short stacks.

It's a pity I can't remember the payout structure because I suppose this is pretty important to the question. I'd guess that it was something like 1st €2k, 2nd €1400, 3rd €700, 4th €400.

So does anybody feel like working out if it's even a close decision or not? As I said I'm sure that calling is the correct play, but I'd be interested to find out what the exact figures are in this situation.

Using chip stacks of 35, 35, and 5 for the rest:
X%($1758) is the $EV on the call where X is your percentage against villains hand range. $1292/$1758 gives us 73.4% which is usually a good call unless villain is only doing this with AA and 87s.

equity (%)  	win (%)	tie (%) 
Hand  1:	72.0293 %  	62.33% 	09.70%      { AA }
Hand  2:	27.9707 %  	18.27% 	09.70%      { AA, 87s }

Calculations were done with Andy Ward's equity calculator

Gholimoli

DeVore wrote:

I wonder if there IS a payout structure that WOULD make sense to fold aces simply because it was so bizarre and contorted. Where is the break even point?

Can we get back to discussing that?


DeV.

Dev,
the problem with folding AA pre-flop is that even though theoretically there will be situations where it would be correct to fold them(as already mentioned in satellite bubble time) those will come up so rarely that your not really missing much at all by not recognizing those situations.
its like saying how to extract value when u flopped a str flush,4 of kind, royal flush.
even though it can be right so fold AA in some situations ,your not making a big mistake at all by not folding them but the reverse could have catastrophic results(folding when you shouldn’t)

DeVore

You're not making a big mistake playing blackjack (properly). But Vegas was built on that...

Besides, perhaps its an interesting conundrum... you dont get paid for doing crosswords either you know

DeV.

5starpool

The Sheriff 101 wrote:

Whoo just joined this forum its ......... am ............... energetic :rolleyes:
I find the way flipper was blasted was pretty harsh.
A lot of u are like myself are members of the Hendon mob and i was surprised to see such strong personal assaults and childish bickering from obviously knowledgeable and intelligent people :mad: :mad:
Shame on u u know who u are .:)

I happen to have played with flipper on a few occasions and found him
To be a gent and not as was suggested by others jealous of his success.
i felt this was relevant as their were misleading comments made about him
Which suggest him to be some arrogant p***k.

Please don't post things like this that are not relevant. Apart from one (enraged/over the top) poster no one has abused flipper personally. His reasoning has been vehemently disagreed with, and the fact that he is referring to himself as a top player yet doesn't see what he did wrong in the stated situation was commented upon as being generally incompatible items.

Also, some of his posts did come across as arrogant when posted. The posts that have happened since I personally stated this earlier in the thread however either show admirable restraint from flipper or else prove that he is in fact not as I posted. There is every chance that his post didn't mean to sound that harsh, or else it may have been a specifically aimed post, and at this point I am personally giving him the benefit of the doubt.

To suggest that people that posted negative things about flippers play in this thread are 'jealous of his success' is a pointless and incorrect argument. I think you will find that with possibly one or two exceptions that most people here are glad of any success that a fellow member has achieved. I have never met or played with flipper, but most people I know that have say that he is a decent lad.

Welcome to the forum, but defending a poster just because you know him and without any regard to other posts made by said poster in the thread in question is not really the best start.

A lot of us can be a bit tetchy at times on here but really we all want to get along I'm sure.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

You're not making a big mistake playing blackjack (properly). But Vegas was built on that...

Gholi means that there is an occasional time when folding AA preflop is a mistake (and mostly it would be a small one), but virtually every other time its a ghastly error, so never folding AA would be a mistake of of tiny proportions. Incorrectly folding AA from time to time AA is a big mistake.

The only time you should fold AA preflop (that ive come across) is where winning the hand will not materially affect your chance of moving up the pay ladder. Ie you are in 3rd place with 1 chip left, CL and 2nd CL go all in with 1k chips each. Winning this is meaningless as you are basically never improving from 2nd>1st anyway, so there is no need to risk getting knocked out in 3rd.

And just to nit pick even further, i would imagine vegas was built on tourists playing Keno and baccaret rather than poker players playing BJ!

MrPillowTalk

I go offline for a week and it all kicks off..........

I know Kieran and think hes a grand lad. I would simply never ever fold AA preflop barring the sat situation. In this situation with the two all ins you most likely see big aces or pairs from either player, how big a favourite do you want to be before the money goes in?

Kieran the strangest thing about the play is the fact that you showed it, that just seems so bizarre to me you basically told every player in Ireland that you wont play a big three way pot with the current nuts, this in mind you better be prepared to get the ass bluffed off yourself for a month or two so you better change your game slightly. It actually might be good ev if you can now get every player in the macau to think they can make you fold aces preflop lol but it will really restrict your play.

As far as the Im bb and the whole table goes all in in the wsop main event and I have AA, well if everyone has an average stack I stick it in knowing that I will lose a lot of the time but the times I win I have 10 times the average and in great shape to win the whole thing. I should also point out that if everyone at the table goes all in I probably call with 67s or 23s etc also.

Flipper

5starpool wrote:

Please don't post things like this that are not relevant. Apart from one (enraged/over the top) poster no one has abused flipper personally. His reasoning has been vehemently disagreed with, and the fact that he is referring to himself as a top player yet doesn't see what he did wrong in the stated situation was commented upon as being generally incompatible items.

Also, some of his posts did come across as arrogant when posted. The posts that have happened since I personally stated this earlier in the thread however either show admirable restraint from flipper or else prove that he is in fact not as I posted. There is every chance that his post didn't mean to sound that harsh, or else it may have been a specifically aimed post, and at this point I am personally giving him the benefit of the doubt.

To suggest that people that posted negative things about flippers play in this thread are 'jealous of his success' is a pointless and incorrect argument. I think you will find that with possibly one or two exceptions that most people here are glad of any success that a fellow member has achieved. I have never met or played with flipper, but most people I know that have say that he is a decent lad.

Welcome to the forum, but defending a poster just because you know him and without any regard to other posts made by said poster in the thread in question is not really the best start.

A lot of us can be a bit tetchy at times on here but really we all want to get along I'm sure.

5star, i appreciate your take on the thread as a whole and for the most part, it's a lot more reasonable and understanding than most other posts here. I just decided to stop posting to it as I felt that it was becoming an attack on me personally - mainly from people who have never met me. As for sounding arrogant - that couldn't be further from what was intended. BTW, my post about 7%/93% was never meant to imply that I was in the top 7% in the world. It was to highlight the division between winning and losing players.

I already said a million times that I never thought that laying down AA was the right move or was it in any way an instructional on what to do in that situation... in fact, I meant quiet the opposite. It was simply a relevant story.

Finally, I never implied that I was superior to anyone here. I'm on here for the same reason as most - to learn... Not to preach.

The Sheriff 101

Just to clear something up firstly we all agree Flippers fold was the wrong move at the right time hey id rather be lucky than good any day.

Flipper thought about it felt it was the right decision to fold forgive him for miscalculating (we have all made mistakes) he probably worked it out under a bit of pressure and made a miscalculation I don’t know he posted a reply telling a story about (if I ever do fold aces that’s including post flop I would carry it to the grave) folding Aces pre-flop while I agree with the majority of the assessments I felt it got a bit nasty and flippers automatic reaction would be defensive even if he never meant to justify his play after criticism like SOME of that its hard not to.

Also 5 star just to clear up the misunderstanding i was not referring to people
on this forum when i said "jealous of his success"
I am referring back to after he won the Irish open before I knew who Kieran was to people slating Flipper I did not know any of the other player in cork but their was a small minority of players that must have felt they were better because they were resentful of his success.

5star I would also agree with you when u say flipper came across as slightly arrogant in some of the previous posts but I a sure u he is not.
But It’s understandable as really for want of a better term everyone ganged up on him (Yes I do know how childish that sound’s).

Btw it may seem that through my defence of flipper that I am a friend of flippers i am not not that i dislike him i think he is a nice guy. I merely felt the criticism by 1 or 2 users was unfair and it was 12 v 1.
I hope i wont be slated the same way when i post although im sure i wont.

Flipper next time you fold aces doooo not tell anyone for your own sake.:rolleyes:

quote star5 "Welcome to the forum" thanks
i hope my future post will be about poker

The Sheriff 101

BTW would anyone fold kings in flipper's position id like to say i would but not a chance.:D

nicryan

aww I want an ego massage....


u r teh SUKK I r teh BESTESTEST EVA!...I R TEH 1337


-Nic

5starpool

The Sheriff 101 wrote:

BTW would anyone fold kings in flipper's position id like to say i would but not a chance.:D

I nearly folded QQ 3 way once in a similiar situation but I didn't, can't see it happening with KK unless specific reason to do so.

I think this thread has nearly run it's course though, it needs a new injection of "one point twenty one gigawattts of power" (spelt for extra emphasis, doc brown is a genius!!!!) as we are out of plutonium nearly.

califano

5starpool wrote:

I think this thread has nearly run it's course though, it needs a new injection of "one point twenty one gigawattts of power" (spelt for extra emphasis, doc brown is a genius!!!!) as we are out of plutonium nearly.

Who folded AA!

slegs

is there ever a scenario where u would fold AA with 3 allins in front of you

(flak jacket on)

5starpool

slegs wrote:

is there ever a scenario where u would fold AA with 3 allins in front of you

(flak jacket on)

Yes. If everyone promised to stop posting these questions on boards forever then I would do it.

slegs

lol