Laying down AA Pre Flop

CharlieAsh

ntlbell wrote:

Charlie you wouldn't drop Ax never mind AA

That hurt...............it's TRUE...............but it still hurt:D

ntlbell

Frank Rizzo wrote:

ive never laid down an AA pre flop.... will always stay in and probably come in over the top pre flop with it aswell... lost 3 outa 4 times aswell...lol...

You come over the top with AA?

Loosey goosey you!

Flipper

ntlbell wrote:

Doing something different is not the issue here, it's choosing to do something "different" for the wrong reasons then trying to justify it with nonsense talk.

"nonsense talk"???? Explain that comment? Have you even read the entire thread?

Hitman Actual

CharlieAsh wrote:

Three handed with a gun to my head and a promise of a threesome with Jessica Alba and her filthy minded best mate, i still couldn't fold AA pre-flop

TBH, I'm taking the Jessica Alba route here!

slegs

CharlieAsh wrote:

Three handed with a gun to my head and a promise of a threesome with Jessica Alba and her filthy minded best mate, i still couldn't fold AA pre-flop

Jessica Alba could make me fold AA anytime

Gholimoli

CharlieAsh wrote:

Three handed with a gun to my head and a promise of a threesome with Jessica Alba and her filthy minded best mate, i still couldn't fold AA pre-flop

man what it is it that you dont understand about EV.

here it goes:

i would pay 5K for the proposed 3some.

if i win this tourny i only get 3200 anyway.

so this is a typical situation where its +EV to fold AA pre flop.
but again as it was suggested this is very "player dependent " and you "have to be there to understand ".

CharlieAsh

I'm gonna have to go back and edit that damn post.

ntlbell

Flipper wrote:

"nonsense talk"???? Explain that comment? Have you even read the entire thread?

NONSENSETALK wrote:

knew that by calling I would be committing half my stack. If either player outdraws me, I still go heads up but with only 30% of the chips. One factor that I forgot to mention is that the blinds were huge at that point and I felt that if I dropped back to 30% (worst case) I would need to get lucky to do any better that 2nd place (because there would have been very little play left). If I fold, I'm GUARANTEED to go heads up (provided no split pot) with over 50% of the chips and improve my chances of winning the tourney outright - as there would be a lot more play + I figured I'd have the edge heads up.

Now I know I'm leaving out the possibility that i'd end the tourney right there and then by calling and busting the two of them but if both had pocket pairs for example, I'd only be about 1/2 to win the hand. With the play I was leaving in the game heads up, I made myself that price to win anyway - without ANY risk of being 2 to 1 against in chips.

I'm not going through every post you made again, but it's for the most part all nonsense.

brianmc

Wow. I logged in at 9:00ish yesterday evening... Saw the original post (made at 5:15pm) and thought "thank god that snowball didn't start rolling".

...sigh.

jtsuited

adding to the noise!

Frank Rizzo

ntlbell wrote:

You come over the top with AA?

Loosey goosey you!

depends on where im sitting... last to bet and fuk all has been done...then a nice raise i will make...not last, ill limp in and wait for the flop....

Hectorjelly

This is a really funny thread. Flipper you folded an 87% favourite. I dont think you really need to work out the maths to see why this is bad. You can take solace in the fact that the only person who agrees with you in this thread thinks that AK is a better hand than AA in tournaments.

Also your defense of the play - There are different ways to play poker yadda yadda - is an old and cliched defense on this board; which is completely nonsensical. Its possible to be a very successfull poker players and have huge wholes in your play and understanding. If you folded AA in sitautions like this its not going to matter than much because they come up so rarely, but its still an almost unspeakably bad play.

RoundTower

Flipper wrote:

buy 1% of my action in the 888.com UK Open for $75

I really couldn't make my way through the whole thread but this is the bit I found funniest.

jacQues

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is a really funny thread. Flipper you folded an 87% favourite. I dont think you really need to work out the maths to see why this is bad. You can take solace in the fact that the only person who agrees with you in this thread thinks that AK is a better hand than AA in tournaments.

I felt that folding should be an option. My mental block is the fact that people here portrait poker as pure applied maths.

The argument "Why fold AA to push with Kx heads-up?" was the best on IMHO. It actually changed my mind. If I ever get into such situation, I'll promise to think long and hard about what's best to do and remember all the arguments made.

jacQues

Hitman Actual

jacQues wrote:

I felt that folding should be an option. My mental block is the fact that people here portrait poker as pure applied maths.

jacQues

Nobody here is portraying poker as pure applied maths. But being able to use maths to back up your reasons for making a decision always makes your argument more credible.

Gholimoli

jacQues wrote:

I felt that folding should be an option. My mental block is the fact that people here portrait poker as pure applied maths.

The argument "Why fold AA to push with Kx heads-up?" was the best on IMHO. It actually changed my mind. If I ever get into such situation, I'll promise to think long and hard about what's best to do and remember all the arguments made.

jacQues

its all pure applied maths.
everything else fill the blanks in the math equations.

Ste05

I can't believe this thread made it to 4 pages,:eek: :eek:

The only way it would be remotely near to correct/profitable to fold AA 3-handed would be if this was a Satellite with only 2 seats available and you're a short stack with 2 All-In's before you....

Although, one thing that I noticed earlier was Flipper's comments about the 93/7 breakdown of losing/winning players.... IMO This breakdown can be broken down even further.....

I think that about, 80% of people who play Poker don't have a fcuking clue what they're doing, of them, 1% get savage positive varience/ make a big score (= 1% of winning players) another 18% of players have read a few books or understand basic Poker theory/ read forums, try and improve their game, of this 18% only about 25% of them actually know how to properly apply this knowledge or have the proper discipline to apply this knowledge profitably (leading to another ~4% of profitable players) and then there's about 2% of players who have a natural ability at the game which is complimented by studying the game and constantly trying to improve their play.

Therefore of the 7% of winning players 1/7th of them are lucky bastards, 4/7ths of them have a good solid knowledge and understanding of Poker and an ability to apply what they know/ have learned, and 2/7ths of them are natural players.

And as for folding AA in this spot, it'll always be a long term mistake and there is no defence to it (bar results orientated thinking - as in Flipper would have lost to a flush), but the point is most of the skill is involved in getting to this situation, but it'll always be a mistake to fold AA as a clear chip leader, 3 handed at a FT in a regular payout MTT. End of story...

DeVore

There is a situation where I fold AA preflop 3 way.

Someone walks up behind me and anounces "I'll give the prize for first + X Euro to anyone who folds AA preflop" in a non-WSOP tournie. I havent decided what X is but it probably wouldnt need to be much

Other then that I dont think I could ever do it. I can't see what I wouldnt want to smash the tournie there and then and crucify the last guy while laughing maniacally from behind a wall of chips.

DeV.
ps: keep this civil.

5starpool

Ste05 wrote:

I can't believe this thread made it to 4 pages,:eek: :eek:

Make it 40 posts per page, then it is only 2 pages

Flipper

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is a really funny thread. Flipper you folded an 87% favourite.

Where the hell did you pull that percentage from? Against the AK & AQ? I didn't know I'd be up against AK & AQ BEFORE i folded - did I?? Obviously, knowing that I would have called. I made the decision in order to move up the pay ladder and to have a sizable stack for heads-up play. Like I said earlier, I expected two pocket pairs which would have made me 2/1 fav to win the hand. It was never going to be two "random cards" anyway because of the situation and the money involved. Now, granted the revealing of AK and AQ was very much in my favour. I never once said in my posts that it was the right move... I just stated that it was what I chose to do on this occasion.

RoundTower wrote:

I really couldn't make my way through the whole thread but this is the bit I found funniest.

Why? Do you find it funny when you look at your own poker "career" and realise that you've never been invited to a televised event in your life? I only sell shares so that other people can have an interest.

Ste05 wrote:

And as for folding AA in this spot, it'll always be a long term mistake and there is no defence to it (bar results orientated thinking - as in Flipper would have lost to a flush), but the point is most of the skill is involved in getting to this situation, but it'll always be a mistake to fold AA as a clear chip leader, 3 handed at a FT in a regular payout MTT.

Yes, I'll say it again.... I KNOW it was matematically a bad fold. I only posted the story because it was relevant. I explained my reasoning and of course (typical of this forum) discussion was overpowered by "I'm always right" attitude of some of the posters on here.

5starpool

That last post makes you sound even more arrogant I hate to say.

If the wrong move turned out to be a lucky fold then it does not mean it was a good fold.

Did you expect people to post something like 'I know you shouldn't have folded, but well done because your error really turned into something lucky that enabled you to win'? I am certainly not one of the 'I am always right' brigade because I have posted probably incorrect lines at times, but I know I am right here. You are at worst at 4/6 favourite preflop. This is not an edge to pass up at any time, never mind for the tournament.

ArmaniJeanss

Flipper wrote:

I never once said in my posts that it was the right move... I just stated that it was what I chose to do on this occasion.

Flipper.
You are digging up and getting nowhere. The original poster asked about situations where a fold with AA would be correct. You made the fourth reply to the post, and it came across as a 'how clever am I' answer. You never mentioned to the original poster that your example would be a ludicrous one to follow.
When the folly of the way you played the hand was pointed out to you, you defended it with complete nonsense like 'the blinds were big', 'situation dependant', 'i'm a winning player who thinks a couple hands in advance'.
And then you go into 'oh typical of the attitude of this board' mode when you realise you don't have a leg to stand on.
AJs

Waylander

Flipper wrote:

Yes, I'll say it again.... I KNOW it was matematically a bad fold. I only posted the story because it was relevant. I explained my reasoning and of course (typical of this forum) discussion was overpowered by "I'm always right" attitude of some of the posters on here.

Flipper, I have not posted in this thread and have no arguement with you but you are the one displaying more of this attitude then anyone else. Apart from anything else, you think you are a 2-1 favourite and state folding is the right option. I think that is madness. Ste05's post described pretty much the only situation I can think of where I would fold Aces preflop.

Flipper

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

The original poster asked about situations where a fold with AA would be correct. You made the fourth reply to the post, and it came across as a 'how clever am I' answer. You never mentioned to the original poster that your example would be a ludicrous one to follow.

You're completely right. It wasn't an answer to the question but merely a semi-relevant story. You're also right in saying that it would be a ludicrous action to follow. I'm like most of the people here - I'm learning the game every day and while this move was a mistake, I learnt from it. I'm not taking comfort in the fact that it all worked out all right on the night because the end result is not directly related. Folding didn't win the tourney. It just so happened that this one time, it went my way. The same move over and over again would result in me losing.

BTW, I never intended for one second for my post to come across as a "how clever am I" answer.

5starpool

Flipper wrote:

You're completely right. It wasn't an answer to the question but merely a semi-relevant story. You're also right in saying that it would be a ludicrous action to follow. I'm like most of the people here - I'm learning the game every day and while this move was a mistake, I learnt from it. I'm not taking comfort in the fact that it all worked out all right on the night because the end result is not directly related. Folding didn't win the tourney. It just so happened that this one time, it went my way. The same move over and over again would result in me losing.

BTW, I never intended for one second for my post to come across as a "how clever am I" answer.

And now we are all friends again?

ArmaniJeanss

Flipper wrote:

BTW, I never intended for one second for my post to come across as a "how clever am I" answer.

Fair enough, point taken. It led to a nice fun debate anyway, which is always a good thing.
AJs.

Flipper

Waylander wrote:

Flipper, I have not posted in this thread and have no arguement with you but you are the one displaying more of this attitude then anyone else. Apart from anything else, you think you are a 2-1 favourite and state folding is the right option. I think that is madness. Ste05's post described pretty much the only situation I can think of where I would fold Aces preflop.

This is the last time I'm going to say this....... I do not think it was a good fold. But it's what I did. I only argued my reasoning for folding so as you could see what went through my head. I never ever said that if the exact same situation arised again that carry out the same actions either...

Flipper

5starpool wrote:

And now we are all friends again?

ok :rolleyes:

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

Fair enough, point taken. It led to a nice fun debate anyway, which is always a good thing.

I agree. I just wish it was more debate and less bickering. If I wanted bickering, I'd hang out with my girlfriend more often!

5starpool

It's been a while since there was a witch hunt on here, we are all too polite lately. Cheers for providing the entertainment.

Gholimoli

5starpool wrote:

It's been a while since there was a witch hunt on here, we are all too polite lately. Cheers for providing the entertainment.

yeah we are all 2 polite of late.
what ever happend to the days of ppl calling ppl monkeys,donkeys ,parrots,clowns,muppets...