Laying down AA Pre Flop

Hitman Actual

I think Benglian is joking, Gholi, or at least there is some hidden sarcasm in the post.

Meh, this thread is wearing me out, time to quit work for the week, me thinks.

jacQues

Iago wrote:

yeah I was thinking that I play it way too tight passive. I'll have to start open raising with it more, and I definitely don't 3 bet preflop enough, but where I think it all falls down is post flop.

Say I've open-raised UTG with 7s 2c and there's been a re-raise and call from CO and the Button, I would tend to flat call here. So the flop comes down Ad Qd 2h, I bet half-pot and the CO folds, button re-raises and I tend to fold.

What I should be doing is pushing here because obviously the turn is going to be the 7c and I'll scoop it all. Must play more aggressively!!

As a tight player, I would fold 7s 2c. If it was 7s 2h (e.g. different colours); happy days! :rolleyes:

As it were, I would mix it up between slowplaying them and pushing. One thing is for sure, they'll never expect 7 2 off!

To stay on-topic. I've actually (live) read tight players for AA pre-flop and raised with 7 2 off knowing they just call to keep me in and also call a push post-flop unless there's a high non-ace pair on the board. One crappy looking flop of J 2 7 later and they're all-in and on their way out of the tournament. OR On good looking flop of Q 4 Q later and I buy it. Did they do anything wrong post-flop? Not really. Did they do anything wrong pre-flop then? 5 BB raise is good, but when the hamster raised your aces you'll never know who's ahead post-flop. Thus re-raise all-in would have been correct. In this situation folding them pre-flop......nah! No good either. Worse actually.

jacQues

5starpool

lenny_leonard wrote:

I think Benglian is joking, Gholi, or at least there is some hidden sarcasm in the post.

Oh God I sincerely hope so.............

I hope this thread isn't still in full swing next Monday when I next get a chance to read boards.....

Gholimoli

jacQues wrote:

As a tight player, I would fold 7s 2c. If it was 7s 2h (e.g. different colours); happy days! :rolleyes:

As it were, I would mix it up between slowplaying them and pushing. One thing is for sure, they'll never expect 7 2 off!

To stay on-topic. I've actually (live) read tight players for AA pre-flop and raised with 7 2 off knowing they just call to keep me in and also call a push post-flop unless there's a high non-ace pair on the board. One crappy looking flop of J 2 7 later and they're all-in and on their way out of the tournament. OR On good looking flop of Q 4 Q later and I buy it. Did they do anything wrong post-flop? Not really. Did they do anything wrong pre-flop then? 5 BB raise is good, but when the hamster raised your aces you'll never know who's ahead post-flop. Thus re-raise all-in would have been correct. In this situation folding them pre-flop......nah! No good either. Worse actually.

jacQues

This just gets better and better.
Thanks folks for a great afternoons entertainment.
to stay on topic. I would love to play against you .
can i ask you where your coming up with these original great ideas?
i certainly don’t think such noble ideas(reraising with 72 knowing some one has AA) has been preached on this forum or maybe ive missed something.

man i seriously suggest you get your ABC of poker together before you start getting cute and creative (like the above suggested strategy).
even get the AB and you will improve alot.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

This just gets better and better.
Thanks folks for a great afternoons entertainment.
to stay on topic. I would love to play against you .
can i ask you where your coming up with these original great ideas?
i certainly don’t think such noble ideas(reraising with 72 knowing some one has AA) has been preached on this forum or maybe ive missed something.

man i seriously suggest you get your ABC of poker together before you start getting cute and creative (like the above suggested strategy).
even get the AB and you will improve alot.

You mean you don't do the re-raise with 72 oop check/float/push non scarey turn with 72o??

Where have you been??

Gholimoli

lenny_leonard wrote:

I think Benglian is joking, Gholi, or at least there is some hidden sarcasm in the post.

Meh, this thread is wearing me out, time to quit work for the week, me thinks.

in that case it was a great joke cuz it had me actually laughing out loud.

jacQues

Gholimoli wrote:

This just gets better and better.
Thanks folks for a great afternoons entertainment.

No problem; you're welcome.

Gholimoli wrote:

to stay on topic. I would love to play against you .

Also no problem; we'll arrange some "fun" STT soon.

Gholimoli wrote:

can i ask you where your coming up with these original great ideas?

Good question. I do not know. They just tend to pop into my head at random. Maybe I'm just crazy. On-line they certainly don't work. But with a little "acting" it seems to work miracles for me off-line. I won 5 out of the 6 12-week leagues we played in our home game for example.

jacQues

Hitman Actual

jacQues wrote:

To stay on-topic. I've actually (live) read tight players for AA pre-flop and raised with 7 2 off knowing they just call to keep me in and also call a push post-flop unless there's a high non-ace pair on the board. One crappy looking flop of J 2 7 later and they're all-in and on their way out of the tournament. OR On good looking flop of Q 4 Q later and I buy it. Did they do anything wrong post-flop? Not really. Did they do anything wrong pre-flop then? 5 BB raise is good, but when the hamster raised your aces you'll never know who's ahead post-flop. Thus re-raise all-in would have been correct. In this situation folding them pre-flop......nah! No good either. Worse actually.

How much money are you leaking away here? And you're right, it is on-topic, because this thread has morphed into the "post your favourite -EV play". Head explosion imminent. (Mine, that is)

Gholimoli

Every one is using really hilarious one-liners or longer funny comments as their signature here these days.
I’ve been looking for one for a while but nothing worthy really caught my eye.
I would like your permission to use this seen as you obviously have ownership of it.

“Did they do anything wrong post-flop? Not really. Did they do anything wrong pre-flop then? 5 BB raise is good, but when the hamster raised your aces you'll never know who's ahead post-flop. Thus re-raise all-in would have been correct. In this situation folding them pre-flop......nah! No good either. Worse actually.”

jacQues

Gholimoli wrote:

Every one is using really hilarious one-liners or longer funny comments as their signature here these days.
I’ve been looking for one for a while but nothing worthy really caught my eye.
I would like your permission to use this seen as you obviously have ownership of it.

“Did they do anything wrong post-flop? Not really. Did they do anything wrong pre-flop then? 5 BB raise is good, but when the hamster raised your aces you'll never know who's ahead post-flop. Thus re-raise all-in would have been correct. In this situation folding them pre-flop......nah! No good either. Worse actually.”

Granted. Though I would appreciate it if you name the source. I.E. add " - jacQues"

RoundTower

Flipper wrote:

Why? Do you find it funny when you look at your own poker "career" and realise that you've never been invited to a televised event in your life? I only sell shares so that other people can have an interest.

Lol - I don't try to be a poker celebrity, most tournaments I enter I pay out of my own hard earned cash. Very generous of you though to sell shares of yourself at above cost so that other people can find the game more interesting.

Actually I found your signature funny because it came in a post that showed you playing badly. But any publicity is good publicity I suppose!

jacQues

Wanna do a sidebet on how far I'll go in the WSOP?
If I make ITM I win the bet full stop.
If I don't make ITM then I'll pay your entry fee into the meantioned "fun" STT. ("fun"; e.g. thinking of 50 euro buyin)

Gholimoli wrote:

Judging by your comments you have a real lack of understanding in poker.
As I said in the post I suggest you start from the very basics and work your way up and try to build a sound fundamental knowledge of poker.

I'm trying. That's why I read the boards.ie poker section. I'm still improving because of it. I don't see the problem in having a bit of fun at the same time.

jacQues

Gholimoli

jacQues wrote:

Wanna do a sidebet on how far I'll go in the WSOP?
If I make ITM I win the bet full stop.
If I don't make ITM then I'll pay your entry fee into the meantioned "fun" STT. ("fun"; e.g. thinking of 50 euro buyin)


I'm trying. That's why I read the boards.ie poker section. I'm still improving because of it. I don't see the problem in having a bit of fun at the same time.

jacQues

No I don’t want a side bet with you.
I truly hope you do well in this and make as much $$$ as possible.
However whether or not you do well in this has nothing to do with how good your game or knowledge of the game is.
Your comments and arguments and your reasoning on the other hand has a lot to do with showing how good you are.
All the best in Vegas and have fun.

jacQues

Gholimoli wrote:

No I don’t want a side bet with you.

I would argue that my bet proposal was very -EV. But I still came out ahead, since you folded. Knowing people is almost as important to me as knowing the odds. If I think someone will lay it down no matter what the pot odds are I'll bet.

I'm glad that I made you laugh. I don't care if what I say here is utterly ridicilous. The feedback will come and I will learn from it. If noone ever tried to fly we still wouldn't be able to fly. They tried flying for hundreds of years and all attemts failed. So surely it must be impossible. Now flying is considered a normal means of transport. When I play poker its mostly ABC. But whenever I can I will test out weird, odd and -EV strategies. Usually the result is -EV overall. But since I play against people and not machines I am sure that poker isn't all about odds and other maths. I keep an open mind and because of what I learned while testing I play different that most others. By no means am I an authority on poker. Rather, the reverse it true. I am still learning and don't know whether I'm up IRL because of luck, because of my strategy or simply because I play differently. Until I find that out I'll be playing around and injecting seemingly random ideas here on boards...if that's ok.

jacQues

Lazare

I'm gonna watch Flipper on Ntl tonight.

Flipper: "click, click, click, click"

Sandy: "Dad, dad, Flipper just folded Aces!!"

Marq

Flipper wrote:

Why? Do you find it funny when you look at your own poker "career" and realise that you've never been invited to a televised event in your life?

lol. nobody in their right mind would knowing invite Roundtower to anything. I suppose he is quite fortunate then in having won his way into two televised events in the last nine months.

Gholimoli wrote:

However whether or not you do well in [the WSOP Main Event] has nothing to do with how good your game or knowledge of the game is.

This is a truly silly thing to say, imo.

By the way, Flipper, are you aware that over a quarter of all the posts you have made on his forum have been in a thread where you are defending folding aces in a situation where it was quite clearly -EV to fold aces no matter how you look at it?
Just wondering.

cardshark202

Marq wrote:

lol. nobody in their right mind would knowing invite Roundtower to anything. I suppose he is quite fortunate then in having won his way into two televised events in the last nine months.


This is a truly silly thing to say, imo.

'quite fortunate', lol, he's a total luckbox and a crrrrraaaaaazy kid!

shoutman

and to think I thought my quick reply to the thread starters post would end this thread before it got off the ground...... :rolleyes:

Hectorjelly

Flipper wrote:

Where the hell did you pull that percentage from? Against the AK & AQ? I didn't know I'd be up against AK & AQ BEFORE i folded - did I?? Obviously, knowing that I would have called. I made the decision in order to move up the pay ladder and to have a sizable stack for heads-up play. Like I said earlier, I expected two pocket pairs which would have made me 2/1 fav to win the hand. It was never going to be two "random cards" anyway because of the situation and the money involved. Now, granted the revealing of AK and AQ was very much in my favour. I never once said in my posts that it was the right move... I just stated that it was what I chose to do on this occasion.

The great thing about aces is that you know you are going to be a substantial favourite, you dont really need to worry about what your opponents had. However, you will often see Ax in this situation which effectively gives your opponent/s a one card hand.

Flipper wrote:

Why? Do you find it funny when you look at your own poker "career" and realise that you've never been invited to a televised event in your life?

You should probably put this as your signature.

Flipper wrote:

Yes, I'll say it again.... I KNOW it was matematically a bad fold. I only posted the story because it was relevant. I explained my reasoning and of course (typical of this forum) discussion was overpowered by "I'm always right" attitude of some of the posters on here.

I dont get this at all. You didnt post it knowing it was a bad fold , and I suspect you have a totally bizarre notion of how poker and mathamatics interoperate. Your discussion was overpowered because you were totally and unambiguously wrong, on a number of posts. Now you are backtracking, please dont pretend otherwise.

DeVore

Either way, Flipper was posting a non offensive post and got flamed. Ok fair enough but I'm not at all happy about the personal abuse being thrown around here and I back up La Fortezza if I see anything like NTLBell's little hissy fit again.
You'll find yerselves sitting out of the poker forum for the entire WSOP and possibly from Antesup too.
Attack the post not the poster.

Back on topic, in deep stacked games i have called bets I knew were 80/20's against me (ala AA vs 72 situation given above). If I know that I can out play my opponent post flop. Any time I have a really clear read on what someone has I will often play, particularly in deep stacked tournies where there is room to manouvre post flop and particularly on the turn.
I think HJ talked about that once before, this is a 4 street game, far too often the subtleties of the turn and river play are lost on the raise-pf,push-postflop players. Its a major reason why I've become addicted to big stack tournies now and cant face the 20-min 2k push-fests.

Anyone who telegraphs their hand like that says "here I am, and I'm not moving and you know exactly how to predict what I'm going to do next, please run rings around me".

DeV.

kincsem

I think it was ok to fold AA there. There is nothing like spectating when you have the chip lead and the other two go at it. It happened to me once in the Merrion. I sat and watched as they went all-in preflop ..... and split the pot. :mad:

Scotty #

Another thread for the boards poker hall of fame. Is this the same flipper who won the Irish Championship by calling an all-in post flop with 22??

I tried that move - dosn't work for me:(

Daithio

OK, I've never folded AA preflop, and doubt I ever will unless I find myself in a satellite situation where I'm guaranteed or pretty much guaranteed a ticket if I do fold them. I'd NEVER fold them three handed in a normal multi, but there was a situation I was in where I did call with them, but thought afterwards that there might perhaps be some arguments for folding them in that particular situation.

I don't pretend to be a genius regarding the maths side of the game, I know enough about it to get by, most of the decisions I make are worked out at the time I make them and for the most part they tend to be correct mathematically. Of course I factor in mathematical considerations but I haven't thought about it a huge amount, and have never formally tried to work out whether certain decisions are mathematically correct EV wise, so if anybody feels like working this one out go for it.

Eight handed in a multi with top four getting paid, only 1st and 2nd prizes worth talking about. Blinds are pretty big but myself and one other guy have all the chips. Around 35% to 40% of of the entire chips each actually, with the other 20% to 30% spread around very evenly among 6 really short stacks. I reckon that without even playing a hand I could get HU. Anyway it's his button and it's my BB, and he pushes all in and I look down at AA. I called pretty instantly. The result of the hand is unimportant, and I'm still almost positive that it's the correct call, but through my shoddy reasoning I can maybe see that there is an argument for folding in this situation, but I don't know enough maths to verify my assumption that calling is always the correct play. Anyway the argument for folding would go like this; I reckon my chances of getting 1st or 2nd by just avoiding this other stack are well above what my chances are of winning this all in, unless he has Ax, which is a distinct possibility, but again I haven't figured out how likely it is. Of course if I call and win my chances of getting 1st (and so 2nd too) are greatly increased again. It's a pity I can't remember the payout structure because I suppose this is pretty important to the question. I'd guess that it was something like 1st €2k, 2nd €1400, 3rd €700, 4th €400.

So does anybody feel like working out if it's even a close decision or not? As I said I'm sure that calling is the correct play, but I'd be interested to find out what the exact figures are in this situation.

nicryan

jtsuited wrote:

adding to the noise!

well said Jeff.

Nic

nicryan

[QUOTE=HectorJelly}I dont get this at all. You didnt post it knowing it was a bad fold , and I suspect you have a totally bizarre notion of how poker and mathamatics interoperate. Your discussion was overpowered because you were totally and unambiguously wrong, on a number of posts. Now you are backtracking, please dont pretend otherwise.[/QUOTE]


maybe the voices told him he was gonna loose the pot if he called...I bet you're just jealous cause the voices don't talk to you...


and its always fun to play really bad EV hands etc every now and again....long live good variance! and freerolls!

-best thing is that fulltilt have a freeroll into the round 1 of a steps thingie to some 10k event (but every step is a FPP buy in whatsit)...and they start every 5 mins! WOOOO!

'you raised me in the first hand of a freeroll? don't you know its my big blind? I'll put you all in you piece of sh1t'


Nic
--ooooh 100 posts...

nicnicnic

Flipper wrote:

It's certainly possible to lay down AA pre-flop in certain situations. I didn't a few months back in the €200 freezeout in the Macau. Down to three players, I had 55% of the chips in play with the other two being almost exactly even. I was on the BB and found AA. The button and the SB both moved all in and before insta-calling, I took a look at the prize breakdown. It was something like €3,200 for 1st, €2,100 for 2nd and only €900 for 3rd. I showed everyone the Aces and mucked them - knowing that I would certainly move up the prize-ladder by one notch WITHOUT damaging my 55% lead in chips. It turned out to be AK vs AQ and latter took it down with a smelly flush. I went on to win it out.

just coped this now , flipper u big girls blouse:eek: the old flipper would never of put down aa pre

unityofsaints

Flipper is actually playing the British Open for 7500$ ????????

I play 10 quid, 6 player tournaments down at the local pub and know not to fold AA in that situation!

Let's hope for your own sake that you'll never again get aces...;)

shoutman

unityofsaints wrote:

Let's hope for your own sake that you'll never again get aces...;)

Smartest thing said yet.......... :rolleyes:

regards
Mr Sarcasmo

The Sheriff 101

Whoo just joined this forum its ......... am ............... energetic :rolleyes:
I find the way flipper was blasted was pretty harsh.
A lot of u are like myself are members of the Hendon mob and i was surprised to see such strong personal assaults and childish bickering from obviously knowledgeable and intelligent people :mad: :mad:
Shame on u u know who u are .:)

I happen to have played with flipper on a few occasions and found him
To be a gent and not as was suggested by others jealous of his success.
i felt this was relevant as their were misleading comments made about him
Which suggest him to be some arrogant p***k.

Lazare

[QUOTE=The Sheriff 101

I happen to have played with flipper on a few occasions and found him
To be a gent and not as was suggested by others jealous of his success.
i felt this was relevant as their were misleading comments made about him
Which suggest him to be some arrogant p***k.[/QUOTE]

First off, fair play to you for coming on and defending the guy. I don't personally know Kieran, I watched his final table in Citywest last January (a mate of mine made the final too), that's the extent to which I know him, but to be fair and honest, from reading this thread, I think he came accross as arrogant. One instance was when he suggested Gholimoli (a well respected poster and player) was a guy who sat in his room spewing out Sklansky, second was when he suggested he was within the top 7% of poker players in the world.
Again, you personally know him, so you know better, but my two cents is this, it wasn't other peoples comments that suggested him to be arroagant, it was his own.