The Hazards of Belief

recedite

700 hajjis killed in this year's stampede.

The Stoning of the Devil is the main game at this pilgrimage.

"stoning of the jamarāt [place of pebbles] is part of the annual Islamic Hajj pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia. Muslim pilgrims fling pebbles at three walls (formerly pillars), called jamarāt, in the city of Mina just east of Mecca. It is one of a series of ritual acts that must be performed in the Hajj.
On Eid al-Adha (the 10th day of the month of Dhu al-Hijjah), pilgrims must strike only one of the large jamrah with seven pebbles. After the stoning is completed on the day of Eid, every pilgrim must cut or shave their hair. On each of the following two days, they must hit each of the three walls with seven pebbles, going in order from east to west. Thus at least 49 pebbles are needed for the ritual, more if some throws miss. Some pilgrims stay at Mina for an additional day, in which case they must again stone each wall seven times. The pebbles used in the stoning are traditionally gathered at Muzdalifah, a plain southeast of Mina, on the night before the first throwing, but can also be collected at Mina...
The Stoning of the Devil ritual is considered the most dangerous part of the pilgrimage, as sudden crowd movements on or near the Jamaraat Bridge can cause people to be crushed. On several occasions, hundreds of participants have suffocated or been trampled to death in stampedes.
An important step in managing crowds is the recent replacement of the jamarāt pillars by walls to ease and speed up the stoning. The bridge has also been widened in recent years to accommodate the ever-growing number of pilgrims who perform the Hajj each year.
Crowd conditions are especially difficult during the final day of Hajj, which is the day pilgrims leave the valley of Mina and return to Mecca for the farewell Tawaf (the final circumambulation of the Kaaba). According to hadith, Muhammad's last stoning was performed just after the noon prayer. Many scholars feel that the ritual can be done any time between noon and sunset on this day; however, many Muslims are taught that it should be done immediately after the noon prayer. This leads to people camping out until noon and rushing out then to do the stoning.
These two factors are felt to be most responsible for the most recent tragedy during the Hajj of 2006, in which a stampede killed at least 346 pilgrims and injured at least 289 more. This was despite several attempts by the authorities to inform pilgrims about the permissibility of staggering their visits to the jamarāt as well as instructing them to leave their luggage at their tents. Adding to the confusion involved in the tragedy is the lack of co-operation on the part of pilgrims who do not leave the jamarāt area by the proper route, and therefore interfere with the movements of others who are arriving.

Some have suggested that The Running of the Jew would be much safer as the main event.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

700 hajjis killed in this year's stampede.

That's in addition to a further one hundred or so killed when a crane collapsed a few weeks ago:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/saudi-crane-collapse-kills-107-mecca-grand-mosque-150911232844846.html

Given the death toll, it's would be tasteless to use the tragedies in debates with religious believers.

That said, one does wonder what people might feel in the aftermath - would this level of carnage not make even the most fervent religious believer question his or her religious beliefs, even a little?

Kivaro

robindch wrote: »

.........would this level of carnage not make even the most fervent religious believer question his or her religious beliefs, even a little?

But, but ................. god/mohammed works in mysterious ways.

recedite

Maybe they consider themselves lucky to die in such a holy place.
Thats around 800 angels who get to wear the "I died at Mecca 2015" tee-shirt.
With slots cut out at the back, obviously, for the wings.

130Kph

This stampede truly is a (proven) hazard of belief.

In fact, I would say this is one of the most compelling instances on the thread.

BlaasForRafa

robindch wrote: »

That said, one does wonder what people might feel in the aftermath - would this level of carnage not make even the most fervent religious believer question his or her religious beliefs, even a little?

Saw this comment on a post about it on Facebook from someone with a middle-eastern name (presumably a believer)

Inna lillahay Wa Inna aliahay rajioun. Keep in mind life and death is from ALLAH. What they are doing? Performing Hajj a biggest pillar of Islam. And if the death arrive during hajj, what they achieved?,they are martyred. They are lucky they directly goes to Jannah. May Allah give Saber to their families. Ameen.

I think most of us posting here could agree that all religions are a bit crazy but Islam seems to have an extra bit of crazy over the rest of the main religions.

What happened is a tragedy but with millions of people who are already hyped up into a state of semi-hysteria then it's perhaps inevitable that something like this happens fairly regularly. If people were thinking rationally then of course they'd think "eh....I think i'll give that a miss thanks very much all the same" but rationality and Islam don't seem to go hand in hand.

recedite

...they are martyred. They are lucky they directly goes to Jannah.

Yaaay... 10/10 points for me.

Cabaal

Watching bbc news just now, they interviewed a person who was involved in the crush but managed to survive, he said that it was god that saved him.

I guess god cared more about him then others, very picky god.

MrPudding

Cabaal wrote: »

Watching bbc news just now, they interviewed a person who was involved in the crush but managed to survive, he said that it was god that saved him.

I guess god cared more about him then others, very picky god.

He is lucky the rugby World Cup isn't on during the day. His god might have been too busy scoring tries to save him.

MrP

Nodin

Cabaal wrote: »

Watching bbc news just now, they interviewed a person who was involved in the crush but managed to survive, he said that it was god that saved him.

I guess god cared more about him then others, very picky god.

It's like babies. In any large scale disaster God will see one he likes and save them with a miracle. The rest die horribly, because they aren't cute enough or something.

pauldla

Nodin wrote: »

It's like babies. In any large scale disaster God will see one he likes and save them with a miracle. The rest die horribly, because they aren't cute enough or something.

Or because He wants more unclothed flying infants in his cloud palace singing about how great He is.

Not that He has any issues, of course....

seamus

Cabaal wrote: »

Watching bbc news just now, they interviewed a person who was involved in the crush but managed to survive, he said that it was god that saved him.

I guess god cared more about him then others, very picky god.

No you see, Allah loves him, and the people that died too.

But those who've been permanently disfigured or disabled after the crush? Nah fnck them. Allah hates them. Not good enough for saving, not good enough for dying.

Nodin

seamus wrote: »

No you see, Allah loves him, and the people that died too.

But those who've been permanently disfigured or disabled after the crush? Nah fnck them. Allah hates them. Not good enough for saving, not good enough for dying.

Aha. I'd say the answer to that is 'Your injury is a test from god'.

pauldla

Nodin wrote: »

Aha. I'd say the answer to that is 'Your injury is a test from god'.

'Couldn't I have had General Knowledge instead?'

Nodin

pauldla wrote: »

'Couldn't I have had General Knowledge instead?'

'Its not for us to question gods plan' (insert allah where appropriate).

BlaasForRafa

pauldla wrote: »

'Couldn't I have had General Knowledge instead?'

I'll have a P please bob...oh wait I have to empty the colostomy bag first :pac:

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

Watching bbc news just now, they interviewed a person who was involved in the crush but managed to survive, he said that it was god that saved him.

The degree of self-importance implied by that kind of comment is really quite hard to describe.

recedite

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Saw this comment on a post about it on Facebook from someone with a middle-eastern name (presumably a believer)

Inna lillahay Wa Inna aliahay rajioun. Keep in mind life and death is from ALLAH. What they are doing? Performing Hajj a biggest pillar of Islam. And if the death arrive during hajj, what they achieved?,they are martyred. They are lucky they directly goes to Jannah. May Allah give Saber to their families. Ameen.

Sabr is Arabic for patience, but Allah is giving a different kind of sabre to this chap, Ali al Nimr; a sabre across the back of the neck.
You'd think they would have enough of death in Saudi Arabia at the moment, but there is still time to behead young Ali, hang his body on a cross, and leave him crucified there until the flesh rots. His "crime" is part political and part religious, but I suspect this particularly gruesome Islamic State style killing is being imposed just to teach the Shia minority a lesson.

None of this of course affects the ongoing bombing by Saudi Arabia of the Shia civilians in Yemen, or its proud membership of the US led Middle East coalition in The War on Terror.

Kev W

A Christian student beheaded his roommate because he believed he was practicing witchcraft.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2814685/Man-charged-attack-killed-troopers-son.html

Edited to add :yes I know this is from last year, isn't it odd that it wasn't reported more widely?

PopePalpatine

Kev W wrote: »

A Christian student beheaded his roommate because he believed he was practicing witchcraft.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2814685/Man-charged-attack-killed-troopers-son.html

Edited to add :yes I know this is from last year, isn't it odd that it wasn't reported more widely?

I think you have your answer.

BlaasForRafa

Kev W wrote: »

Edited to add :yes I know this is from last year, isn't it odd that it wasn't reported more widely?

It's on the daily mail site, hardly an obscure venue, in fact it's one of the most popular news sites, just how much more widely do you think it should be reported?

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

It's on the daily mail site, hardly an obscure venue, in fact it's one of the most popular news sites, just how much more widely do you think it should be reported?

Now, now. Just because you'd like everyone to concentrate on the ebbil muslims..............

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Now, now. Just because you'd like everyone to concentrate on the ebbil muslims..............

:rolleyes:

robindch

In a letter to all parents of catholic-controlled schools, a catholic bishop in Canada says that chastity is better than the HPV vaccine which can prevent cancer:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/09/25/bc-bishop-urges-chastity-over-hpv-vaccine.html

TheStar wrote:

PRINCE GEORGE, B.C. — A Catholic bishop in British Columbia says a vaccine that protects girls against a sexually transmitted infection isn’t inherently wrong, but abstinence is the only healthy choice. Bishop Stephen Jensen of the Diocese of Prince George also said in a September letter to parents of Grade 6 and Grade 9 girls attending Catholic schools that a legal option known as mature-minor consent won’t be an option for students in the human papillomavirus vaccination program.

Mature-minor consent is defined on the B.C. Centre for Disease Control’s website as the authority given to children under the age of 19 to allow, refuse or revoke their consent to be immunized. The centre said that authority takes precedence over parental authority. “You need to discern the merits of having your child vaccinated or not,” Jensen told parents in the letter posted online. “While the vaccination program is not inherently wrong, parents need to make an informed decision and communicate it in a way that can serve to strengthen their child in the virtue of chastity and reinforce her appreciation of abstinence as the only truly healthy choice.”

He said the church and the parish will support parental rights. The diocese did not respond to email and phone requests for an interview by publication. In a posting on its website, the diocese provides a type of mission statement that explains the principles upon which its eight Catholic elementary schools operate. “Children hear, learn, share and experience Catholic faith and values with and from teachers and staff committed to modeling the words and vision of Christ,” it said.

HPV is one of the most common sexually transmitted infections, three quarters of sexually active women will get it during their lives and it can become cancerous over time, according to the provincial government website ImmunizeBC. Northern Health spokesman Jonathon Dyck said in an email that the authority will work with local schools to ensure people make informed choices about vaccinations. “We want to ensure that the vaccine is offered before people become sexually active as it is a preventative measure, and studies have shown that it does not affect a person’s decision about being abstinent,” he said. “It is also an important protection as the person may marry someone who has contracted and carries HPV.”

Dyck said the infection is highly contagious and can be spread even without sexual intercourse through skin-to-skin contact. “The HPV vaccine is safe and up to 99 per cent effective at preventing HPV strains responsible for most HPV related cancers, and genital warts,” said Dyck. Jensen said vaccination teams will visit Catholic schools three times in the coming year and will offer the vaccine on two of those visits. The diocese makes no mention in the letter of boys receiving the vaccine.

B.C. Health Minister Terry Lake announced in July that boys and men up to the age of 26 would be eligible for free HPV vaccines in September. The vaccines are also available at local health units.

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

In a letter to all parents of catholic-controlled schools, a catholic bishop in Canada says that chastity is better than the HPV vaccine which can prevent cancer:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/09/25/bc-bishop-urges-chastity-over-hpv-vaccine.html

Frank should take a quick trip up north and put manners on him.

cowboyBuilder

Anyone here see that "Going Clear : Scientology and the prison of belief" documentary ?

Absolutely mad stuff, I knew Scientology was a cult, but not at this level.

Tom Cruise must be mentally ill - how he can have people on $50 a week or so deck out his cars and home theatre systems with all
the money he has - disgusting.

And the leader David Miscaviage - what the hell makes him tick ? surely he is in it for the money, he can't actually believe that tripe ?

CptMackey

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Anyone here see that "Going Clear : Scientology and the prison of belief" documentary ?

Absolutely mad stuff, I knew Scientology was a cult, but not at this level.

Tom Cruise must be mentally ill - how he can have people on $50 a week or so deck out his cars and home theatre systems with all
the money he has - disgusting.

And the leader David Miscaviage - what the hell makes him tick ? surely he is in it for the money, he can't actually believe that tripe ?

They are all loop de loop.
Funny thing is tho I watched it and was in work the next day and the holy Joe in work asked me did I see it. He then launched into a tirade about how could anybody believe it etc. All I could say without laughing was "a bit like Christianity "

Why do people think their brand of crazy is better than some one else's

cowboyBuilder

CptMackey wrote: »

They are all loop de loop.
Funny thing is tho I watched it and was in work the next day and the holy Joe in work asked me did I see it. He then launched into a tirade about how could anybody believe it etc. All I could say without laughing was "a bit like Christianity "

Why do people think their brand of crazy is better than some one else's

In fairness tho, have you ever heard of Christians breaking into ex members homes/offices to try and smear them with something, or chucking them into a homemade prison and beating them up - forcing them to clean toilets with toothbrushes ... etc ... - and I'm not talking about actions of individuals , I'm talking about the organisations actions.

Christianity is essentially benign ..

sbsquarepants

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Christianity is essentially benign ..

You're joking right?

Systemic paedophilia, taking children from their mothers and selling them to rich strangers, slave labour, denial of essential health care etc etc

Benign my arse

cowboyBuilder

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You're joking right?

Systemic paedophilia, taking children from their mothers and selling them to rich strangers, slave labour, denial of essential health care etc etc

Benign my arse

I agree - awful stuff , but thats in the past and im talking about an individual now who chooses to be a Christian (anyway the above is the Catholic church, I don't see the same scandals with the church of england for example)