The Hazards of Belief

BlaasForRafa

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Paywall.

That's odd, it didn't paywall me, or maybe it's just the first time I've gone to the ny times in ages lol. Anyway here's what it says.

MEDJUGORJE, Bosnia and Herzegovina — At exactly 6:40 p.m. one sultry day this month, the peal of church bells rang though the main square of this town, bringing countless pilgrims instantly to their knees.

The ringing marked the moment, 34 years ago, when a group of six youths say the Virgin Mary appeared to them. Three of them say she has continued to do so, usually at the same time, every day since.

Over that period, the scheduled apparitions have drawn millions of believers to this small town, and a good dose of suspicion from skeptics, including, perhaps, Pope Francis. In what was interpreted as a thinly veiled jab at the claims, he recently joked during a morning homily about “visionaries who can tell us exactly what message Our Lady will be sending at 4 o’clock this afternoon.”

Soon the Vatican is expected to make public the findings of its own investigation into the reported apparitions, which was concluded 18 months ago. Though the inquiry was started by Francis’ predecessor, Benedict, if the conclusions are doubtful, as some speculate, they could pit a populist pope against a popular shrine.

At the very least, many here fear, the Vatican’s ruling could upend what has become a thriving local industry around the claims. They have made Medjugorje (pronounced mehd-JOO-gor-ee-yeh) an enormously popular religious destination, transforming this once-poor village of rustic stone houses into a beehive of hotels, prix fixe menus and souvenir shops catering to more than a million visitors a year.

Already, since the pope announced in June that a decision was imminent, the numbers of Italians — once the bulk of the pilgrims here — have fallen by half.

“Whatever the verdict turns out to be, this wait is creating a state of uncertainty for the pilgrims, and that affects the season,” said Sante Frigo, an Italian married to a pilgrim guide in Medjugorje.

“From the point of view of the pilgrimage supply chain,” he added, “it’s been a catastrophe.”

Faith aside, for the residents of a town that once barely survived on tobacco plantations and vineyards, the claims of apparitions have been an irrefutable blessing.

Millions of believers have found spiritual solace in Medjugorje, with dozens of reports of miraculous healings, conversions and religious callings, as pilgrims are drawn here by the promise of the immediacy of the divine.

“All Christians know that God can appear at any time,” said Antonio Socci, a journalist and author who covers the Roman Catholic Church. But he added, “experiencing a supernatural event that’s ongoing and in the here and the now” is what has lured so many.

“Medjugorje is a huge mass phenomenon,” Mr. Socci said.

Even so, the reported apparitions have also fueled controversy, in large part because of their duration, and clockwork regularity. Though the church has recognized many dozens of apparitions of the Virgin Mary in the course of its history, rarely have such claims lasted as long.

The longest apparitions are those said to have occurred in Laus, France, from 1664 to 1718, when Mary appeared to the Dominican sister Benedicta Rencurel. The church did not approve them until 2008, 290 years after Sister Benedicta’s death.

The six youths who first reported seeing Mary, in 1981, when they ranged in age from 10 to 17, are known as the visionaries. Three of the six say that since then, they have had only periodic visits. Skeptics raise eyebrows not least because, at times, the visionaries have promised apparitions during public appearances in advance.
Photo
A souvenir shop in Medjugorje. The town is visited by more than a million pilgrims a year. Credit Ziyah Gafic for The New York Times

Doubters accuse the visionaries of blurring the line between the spiritual and the material by capitalizing on the apparitions through global speaking tours and investments in the local tourism industry.

“You have to bear in mind that the visionaries have built economic interests here,” said one skeptic, Marco Corvaglia, a high school teacher who chronicled what he claims are the visionaries’ conflicts of interest on his blog.

He started his blog, he said, out of concern that millions were being duped by the collective power of suggestion. The Medjugorje apparitions, he and other skeptics believe, are nothing other than an “instrument of mass manipulation.”

Nearly all of the six who claimed to have seen the Virgin still live in or near Medjugorje, at least during the summer, the pilgrimage high season. Residents say that they have stopped speaking to the news media, and have kept a relatively low profile since Francis appeared to dismiss their claims during the morning homily at his residence on June 9.

“They barely have a life; here it’s worse than being a V.I.P.,” said Vesna Ivankovic, an official guide here, who said that they lived like recluses because of overly enthusiastic pilgrims who at times inadvertently hurt them. “They can hardly leave the house.”

But they do. On a recent afternoon, one of the three who still claims to see the Virgin daily, Ivan Dragicevic, 50, took to a stage built behind the parish church — with outdoor seating for about 9,000 — to share his experiences with pilgrims braving the heat.

Mr. Dragicevic, who lives in Boston and in Medjugorje, spoke of his conversations with the Virgin, as pilgrims from around the world listened to a simultaneous translation broadcast on various radio frequencies. A group of Frenchwomen took copious notes.

Once he had finished, he quickly left, brusquely declining requests for an interview.

At Magnificat, a guesthouse built three years ago by one of the daily seers, Marija Pavlovic, also 50, graciously greeted pilgrims, offering words of comfort and blessings.

The hotel itself has been a source of controversy. While Ms. Pavlovic describes it as a “center of spirituality,” it is actually a “luxury hotel,” Mr. Corvaglia and other critics say.

Ms. Pavlovic, who divides her time between Italy and here, also declined to be interviewed. “We don’t want to throw fuel on the fire,” she said. “We want to wait until the waters calm down.”
Photo
Millions of believers have found spiritual solace in Medjugorje, with dozens of reports of miraculous healings, conversions and religious callings. Credit Ziyah Gafic for The New York Times

They have been stirred since June, when Francis told reporters on the papal plane returning from Sarajevo that the Vatican was “close to coming to a decision” on its investigation into the claims at Medjugorje.

“For the moment,” the pope said, “all that is being done is to give guidelines to the bishops, but along the lines that will be taken” by the church.

Until now, the Vatican has not taken an official position on the apparitions.

But two years ago, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which is now reviewing the internal Vatican investigation, told bishops in the United States that Catholics should not take part in meetings at which “the credibility of such apparitions would be taken for granted,” until they are definitively authenticated.

Those guidelines have been interpreted by some Vatican experts as a possible blueprint for what is to come.

The Vatican has said that dioceses should not organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje. But it has also not stopped Catholics from praying there, and some Vatican watchers suspect that the results of the investigation may continue to finesse that distinction, skirting the apparitions themselves.

Some church experts say the Vatican could make a Medjugorje shrine, and appoint a pontifical delegate to oversee it.

“The church always acts with prudence and patience, and in particular with apparitions it has always treaded lightly,” said Angela Ambrogetti, the director of the Rome bureau of EWTN, the global Catholic broadcaster. “It can wait another 50 years if it has to. The church is in no hurry.”

Pilgrims, like the Rev. Jack O’Kane, currently a parochial vicar in Hillsborough, N.J., said that should the Vatican come down hard, many people would be “shaken, and confused.”

“You come here and see all this goodness,” he said, “and if it isn’t approved, people will ask why.”

Marinko Sakota, the Franciscan friar who is the parish priest of the local church, St. James the Apostle, said that Medjugorje was a profound experience that went beyond the visionaries.

“Medjugorje is a call to conversion, to prayer to Our Lady, nothing else,” he said. “I don’t ask why the apparitions have lasted for so long, I ask what has happened to me. Have I changed or not?”

The commerce and tourism that grew up around the site “is just a consequence; it was never the aim,” he said. Simply put, pilgrims had to be fed and housed and looked after.

“I’d like things to be more simple,” he added, “but there is always human nature.”

recedite

Sounds like Medjugorje is going to be officially reduced to a metaphor.
Pope Frank has a tricky job on his hands, its not easy to silently deflate a balloon with a pin.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

Sounds like Medjugorje is going to be officially reduced to a metaphor.

If it's good enough for most of the bible...


Edited to add: What's the upside for the RCC of investigating Medjugorje? The hierarchy have been openly dismissive of it for years, it's hardly going to get the papal thumbs-up now is it? Usually with things like this they neither endorse nor condemn and priests say things like 'well if it leads people to the faith...' etc.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

I can see a time in the not-too-distant future when Fr Flannery will be announcing that his name is now "Mr Flannery".

He got if not a belt, a tap of the crozier a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fr-tony-flannery-disappointed-at-silencing-by-bishop-1.2326222

He was to have given the opening address at Spiritfest 2015 over the last weekend in September at the community centre in Killeagh, east Cork. The invitation was issued to him by the local parish pastoral council.

When he became aware of the invitation, Bishop Crean made personal representations to the parish priest of Killeagh, Fr Timothy Hazelwood, and to Fr Flannery’s superiors in the Redemptorist congregation.

“It seems to me that what he possibly wanted was that the provincial would order me not to go to Killeagh,” Fr Flannery said.

“The provincial of the Redemptorists did not give me any direction in respect of the talk in Killeagh.”

Fr Flannery said the bishop then travelled to Killeagh and met the subcommittee of the pastoral council, who were delegated to organise the weekend festival.

“At that meeting he gave orders that the invitation be cancelled. I got a phone call from the parish priest that evening to tell me that the talk would no longer take place,” he said.

Edited to add: I'd seen the place where the talk was due to take place described as a parish hall in another report, just noticed now that this one says it's a 'community centre'. Some 'community centre' if the bish has a veto :rolleyes:

robindch

Bill O'Reilly reckons that it was atheism and secularism behind the murder of two journalists on-air:

http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/08/27/bill-oreilly-links-planned-parenthood-to-va-and/205227

robindch

Turns out that one of more vigorous of the lawyers who's been hounding climate scientists over the last number of years has been receiving money from the coal industry.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/08/25/chris-horner-coal/

BlaasForRafa

The College of Policing in the UK has stated that the use of psychics in cases should be considered. The use of psychics, witches and mystics shouldn't be dismissed and past successes be assessed before ruling them out.

Peregrinus

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The College of Policing in the UK has stated that the use of psychics in cases should be considered. The use of psychics, witches and mystics shouldn't be dismissed and past successes be assessed before ruling them out.

Mmm, not quite. They haven't said that the use of psychics "should be considered"; they've said that if psychics offer information it should be evaluated, and it should "never become a distraction to the overall investigation and search strategy" unless it's verified (i.e. shown to be true).

Nor is it right to say that "past successes [should] be assessed before ruling them out". On the contrary, past successes should be considered in evaluating the information when first offered.

There's no implication that psychic methods are or may be effective. "Successes" can equally be attributed to people who have reliable information but don't want to say how they got it (which is not an uncommon state of affairs) presenting it as "psychic".

robindch

Victor Orban, the heavily-nationalist PM of Hungary, has brought religion into the Syrian refugee problem and appears to think that he's defending a "christian Europe" from ravening muslim hoardes.

Can't see this ending well.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/migration-crisis-hungary-pm-victor-orban-europe-response-madness

Victor Orban wrote:

Those arriving have been raised in another religion, and represent a radically different culture. Most of them are not Christians, but Muslims [...] This is an important question, because Europe and European identity is rooted in Christianity. Is it not worrying in itself that European Christianity is now barely able to keep Europe Christian? There is no alternative, and we have no option but to defend our borders.

Nodin

Knuckle dragging sectarianism at its worst, tbh.

recedite

You have to understand something of Hungary's history to understand this.
For centuries Hungary and Serbia bore the brunt of invading armies of Islamic ottomans based in Syria and Turkey. If it wasn't for their stout defence of "christendom", we might all be living under sharia law now.
The museum in Budapest is a fascinating place; it packed with all manner of captured ottoman armour and weaponry, including the sword of Suleyman the Magnificent, which no doubt lopped off many a Hungarian head in its time. Suleman invaded Hungary 13 times, and at one stage got all the way to Vienna. Its the same route these migrants are now taking.

Hungary is not a rich country, but things work reasonably well there, and they are happy with that. You can get a tram almost anywhere in Budapest for a few cents and only have to wait 2 minutes for it. Women can walk around at night in safety, and in general the crime rate is fairly low. Compare that to Malmo in Sweden which is now known as the rape capital of Europe, and had recent grenade attacks.
Hungarians are under no obligation to open their (our) borders to non EU citizens. They are upholding EU law by detaining migrants and processing them.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

You have to understand something of Hungary's history to understand this............

They also persecuted their own muslim population. It doen't justify hating them now and the ottomans don't justify them discriminating against muslims. Imagine if this state was to refuse entry to protestants or a particular protestant church on historical grounds - there'd be outrage. Jesus Christ, if we want to grudge-bear, then France and Germany would have had another war by now, and we'd bar the English.

recedite

Nodin wrote: »

..discriminating against muslims. Imagine if this state was to refuse entry to protestants..

That's not what happened though. Nobody asked the migrants about their religion. As the first EU country they arrived into Hungary was obliged under the Dublin agreement to process them as possible refugees. But they refused to give names or fingerprints, saying they wanted to go on to Germany and register there.
Which is contrary to EU law, and also says something in itself about their status as refugees, because a person fleeing war would be less picky about their destination country than an economic migrant.

Obviously this is because Merkel announced last week a carte blanche to all Syrian nationals to come to Germany where they would automatically be granted asylum.
Whereas the Hungarian authorities might process them and say, look you have been living in Turkey for five years, you were in no danger there, so we are not granting the asylum.

Different EU countries have different policies on granting asylum, and AFAIK the policy in Ireland is very similar to Hungary, ie a lot less easy to obtain than in the countries asylum seekers would prefer to make their application in, such as Germany or Sweden.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

That's not what happened though. ..................

These are the goal posts, in their original position -

"Those arriving have been raised in another religion, and represent a radically different culture. Most of them are not Christians, but Muslims [...] This is an important question, because Europe and European identity is rooted in Christianity. Is it not worrying in itself that European Christianity is now barely able to keep Europe Christian? There is no alternative, and we have no option but to defend our borders."

....which I described as knuckle dragging sectarianism, which it most certainly is. You then attempted to defend the above statement with reference to Hungarian history, which I refuted. That's where we are now.

Hotblack Desiato

I don't want Europe to go muslim, but I don't want to keep it christian either :pac:

44% of Hungarians believe in god (source - Eurobarometer 2005, via Wikipedia) so saying they want to 'keep it christian' is a bit much - perhaps saying 'we don't want those islamo types in here' would be a bit too blunt?

There are a lot of refugees in Turkish and Lebanese camps for a long time now. Lebanon is unable and Turkey unwilling to allow them to live as normal residents, the rest of the world can't expect them to live in camps indefinitely. We (as in the western world) should be offering asylum without the requirement to reach the shores of Europe to gain it - and the US, Canada, Australia have a responsibility here too. Just becaus Syria is next to Europe doesn't mean it's only a problem for Europe to deal with. We have a responsibility but so do all countries capable of accepting migrants.

The wealthy middle eastern countries have been studiously ignoring this issue, while most of them give arms to one side or the other :mad:

recedite

Nodin wrote: »

These are the goal posts, in their original position -

"Those arriving have been raised in another religion, and represent a radically different culture. Most of them are not Christians, but Muslims [...] This is an important question, because Europe and European identity is rooted in Christianity. Is it not worrying in itself that European Christianity is now barely able to keep Europe Christian? There is no alternative, and we have no option but to defend our borders."

....which I described as knuckle dragging sectarianism, which it most certainly is. You then attempted to defend the above statement with reference to Hungarian history, which I refuted. That's where we are now.

I'll grant you there is a little bit of Islamophobia in that statement, which I attempted to explain (but not necessarily to justify) by way of the historical reference.
But at the same time, it is disingenuous to focus in on solely on the religion element while ignoring the bigger picture. Victor Orban also mentioned "a radically different culture" which IMO would include other elements such as misogeny, homophobia and religious fundamentalism. Although Hungary is "rooted in christianity" like other euro countries, it does not generally claim to be a very religious country, or want to become one. I would also add that western civilisation is more rooted in ancient Greek culture than in "christian culture". And worth noting here that Greek culture once extended much further east into Byzantium, before it was displaced and erased by an Islamic culture imported by invading Turks. The main mosque in Istanbul used to be the main Byzantine Great Palace of Constantinople.

I'm sure, Nodin, you would agree that a country has the right to retain its own culture and not be swamped by another. For example when Israelis build settlements in Palestine they are displacing the indigenous culture, against the wishes of those people.
Similarly the plantation of Ulster infringed the rights of the natives, but that does not mean that the descendants of the planters should be expelled. IMO once a certain period of time has elapsed, roughly when the event is no longer within living memory, its time to let bygones be bygones.

On the other hand, sometimes a country will voluntarily invite such numbers of immigrants as would risk displacement of the original culture, for whatever reasons. Britain seems to be motivated by a post-colonial hang-up, Germany by a post-nazi hang-up, and Sweden by an insane desire to compete against itself to be the most "liberal" country in the world. Even if that means that it will degenerate into a country comprised of two opposing groups of very conservative fundamentalists.

But here's the main problem now occurring in Hungary. Germany has undermined their (and other EU countries) sovereign right to determine their own asylum policies.
Germany has bypassed Hungary. It will grant papers to all these new immigrants, and then send a proportion back to Hungary as part of a mandatory quota system. Its a recipe for disaster.
It seems that Germany wants to change its historical legacy, and become the country that turned Europe into a great happy clappy multicultural utopia. Compared to their last grand plan (to turn Europe into a fascist arian superstate) it has a few features in common. Germany is again the unelected leader, and the consent of the other countries is not of paramount importance in forming the plan.

Its all related to the way the Irish budget has been submitted for approval to the German Bundestag in recent years before it is even seen by the Dail, or the way Germany dictates policy to Greece, or the way Eurozone interest rates are set to whatever suits the German economy at the time.
I wouldn't mind if it was the European Parliament assuming a federal role, but it isn't. Its one national parliament dictating to the others.
And so I would not be surprised to see nationalist and eurosceptic parties gaining control in most european countries over the next decade, followed by the disintegration of the EU in its current incarnation. Schengen will be the first to go.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

I'll grant you there is a little bit of Islamophobia in that statement,........................

"a little bit"?

recedite wrote: »

I'm sure, ................be bygones.

You seem to be conflating immigration and the granting of refugee status with colonisation.

recedite wrote: »

On the other hand, sometimes a country will voluntarily invite such numbers of immigrants as would risk displacement of the original culture, for whatever reasons. .

I'm unaware of this happening in Europe, certainly.

recedite wrote: »

Britain seems to be motivated by a post-colonial hang-up, Germany by a post-nazi hang-up, and Sweden by an insane desire to compete against itself to be the most "liberal" country in the world. Even if that means that it will degenerate into a country comprised of two opposing groups of very conservative fundamentalists..

It amazes me how Sweden can at one and the same time be home to religious fundamentalists and the kind of crime associated with poverty, social exclusion and so on. It's almost as if one was labelled as the other for the sake of convenience where it was felt nessecary

recedite wrote: »

But here's the (..........)is not of paramount importance in forming the plan.

There is a massive crisis with regards to refugees flooding Europe. We can go fingers in the ears, leave the burden on the countries they arrive in, or share the burden while seeking a long term solution. You'll pardon me if I don't address your 'German' narrative, as I've no wish to go down that rabbit hole.

recedite

Nodin wrote: »

There is a massive crisis with regards to refugees flooding Europe. We can go fingers in the ears, leave the burden on the countries they arrive in, or share the burden while seeking a long term solution.

Certainly a huge number of Syrians have left Turkey recently and headed for Germany, having heard about Angela Merkel's invitation.

But it looks like Putin is going to end the war in Syria soon. Apparently he has become concerned that I.S. is now powerful enough to spread into the Caucasus region, and has decided to get more involved in helping Assad win the war against them. So whatever Syrians are still left in Turkey will be able to go home shortly.

Separately a huge number of male migrants have been travelling from sub-saharan Africa to Libya where they pay I.S. militants to take them half-way across the Meditteranean to the waiting EU ships. There is an almost limitless supply of these guys, so the more we take in, the more of them will come. At least it provides an income to the Libyans, so they seem to be mostly staying where they are, despite their own civil war.

Pherekydes

recedite wrote: »

So whatever Syrians are still left in Turkey will be able to go home shortly.

Home to Assad? How nice. And Vlad (the impaler) is on their side. How nice.

What could possibly go wrong?

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

There is a massive crisis with regards to refugees flooding Europe.

Well, Pope Frank has announced that the Vatican is going to step up and do its bit by taking in two refugee families.

Vatican to shelter two refugee families; Pope wants churches to do same

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/06/new-york-times-digital-pope-calls-on-all-of-europeas-catholics-to-house-refugees.html

Less self-satirically, and much more positively, he's also called for every parish in Europe to host one family though I don't know how much of a dent that's going to put in the sheer numbers of people fleeing war and destruction.

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

Well, Pope Frank has announced that the Vatican is going to step up and do its bit by taking in two refugee families.

Vatican to shelter two refugee families; Pope wants churches to do same

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/06/new-york-times-digital-pope-calls-on-all-of-europeas-catholics-to-house-refugees.html

Less self-satirically, and much more positively, he's also called for every parish in Europe to host one family though I don't know how much of a dent that's going to put in the sheer numbers of people fleeing war and destruction.

Considering the kind of headers involved, nothing is going to stop people fleeing except an end to the conflict itself. When Al Qaeda are not the extremists let's face it, its time to go. And, rather unfortunately, the secular opposition are none too discriminate themselves.

Shrap

robindch wrote: »

Less self-satirically, and much more positively, he's also called for every parish in Europe to host one family though I don't know how much of a dent that's going to put in the sheer numbers of people fleeing war and destruction.

It'll be nice if we're let help in that way. This appears to be the Vatican jumping on the bandwagon, as citizens of every EU country are waay ahead of them. Irish people have already pledged over 12,000 beds to refugees, religion/Christianity regardless. https://uplift.ie/refugee-crisis/

More usefully (or at least in the here and now), there's a countrywide initiative taking a convoy of supplies to Calais (easiest to reach from here) at the end of September (thank you StenaLine). There are depots all over the country and donations gratefully received of especially teen boy/men's clothing and toiletries, 4 man tents, tarps, sleeping bags, blankets (especially fleece), rucksacks and FOOTWEAR (very urgently needed, sizes male 7-9). No formal/fancy wear, all freshly washed please. All on facebook relevant to your area, just search Dublin/Limerick/Cork/any place to Calais.

Pope and Govt. can all shove it, tbh. This'll be done with or without them.

silverharp

religious people scaring the next generation oy vey!



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/threeyearold-ultraorthodox-jewish-children-told-the-nonjews-are-evil-in-worksheet-produced-by-school-10481682.html

British three-year-olds have been told "the non-Jews" are “evil” in a Kindergarten worksheet handed out at ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools in north London, it can be revealed.

Documents seen by The Independent show children are taught about the horrors of the Holocaust when they are still in kindergarten at the Beis Rochel boys’ school in north London.

A whistle-blower, who wished to remain anonymous, has shown The Independent a worksheet given to boys aged three and four at the school. In it, children were asked to complete questions related to the holiday of 21 Kislev, observed by Satmer Jews as the day its founder and holy Rebbe, Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum, escaped the Nazis.

The document refers to Nazis only as “goyim” – a term for non-Jews some people argue is offensive.

Emily Green, who used to teach at the same Beis Rochel girls’ secondary school, now chairs the Gesher EU organisation which supports ultra-Orthodox Jews who want to leave the community.

"It's not uncommon to be taught non-Jewish people are evil in ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools. It is part of the prayers, teaching, their whole ethos,” she said.

Describing it as a form of “indoctrination”, Ms Green added: “Psychologically, you become so afraid of the world out there after being taught how dangerous and bad and evil non-Jews are, that it makes it harder to leave.”


Independently translated from Yiddish for The Independent, the worksheet's first question reads: “What have the evil goyim (non-Jews) done with the synagogues and cheders [Jewish primary schools]?” The answer in the completed worksheet reads: “Burned them.”

Another question asks: “What did the goyim want to do with all the Jews?” – to which the answer, according to the worksheet, is: “Kill them.”.

“It doesn’t explicitly refer to the Holocaust,” the source said. “It’s a document that teaches very young children to be very afraid and treat non-Jews very suspiciously because of what they did to us in the past.

"It’s not a history lesson – you can’t say that. It’s a parable that is actively teaching the children extremism, hatred and a fear for the outside world.”

A spokesperson for Beis Rochel said that the worksheets would be amended and apologised for any offence. However they argued the phrase “goyim” was not offensive and accusations that they were indoctrinating children were “without basis”. “The language we used was not in any way intended to cause offence, now this has been brought to our attention, we will endeavour to use more precise language in the future

Shrap

Nodin wrote: »

Considering the kind of headers involved, nothing is going to stop people fleeing except an end to the conflict itself. When Al Qaeda are not the extremists let's face it, its time to go. And, rather unfortunately, the secular opposition are none too discriminate themselves.

I'm more in the business of dealing with the crisis at hand, than trying to analyse how to prevent it. This is happening here and now - let's just help these people.

marienbad

Shrap wrote: »

I'm more in the business of dealing with the crisis at hand, than trying to analyse how to prevent it. This is happening here and now - let's just help these people.

why not do both ?

Shrap

marienbad wrote: »

why not do both ?

Yeah....I'm not good at the analysing. By saying "I'm in the business of..." I meant it. Other people can be in the business of what they're good at, but I'm only a doer, not a thinker. What I said was not meant to convey "give over with the analysis", more that this is happening analysis or not, so let's do the do now and think about it later.

I'm genuinely not knocking the thinkers - I'm in awe of thinkers....but I'm a damn good doer and I'd very much like to help desperate people to get helped right now. We could talk about the rights and wrongs of it for the next 6 months. Meantime, the practical route to help (not necessarily a solution...) is there to be pursued.

marienbad

Shrap wrote: »

Yeah....I'm not good at the analysing. By saying "I'm in the business of..." I meant it. Other people can be in the business of what they're good at, but I'm only a doer, not a thinker. What I said was not meant to convey "give over with the analysis", more that this is happening analysis or not, so let's do the do now and think about it later.

I'm genuinely not knocking the thinkers - I'm in awe of thinkers....but I'm a damn good doer and I'd very much like to help desperate people to get helped right now. We could talk about the rights and wrongs of it for the next 6 months. Meantime, the practical route to help (not necessarily a solution...) is there to be pursued.

effective actions require thinking and planning, anything else is just about making us feel good .

MrPudding

marienbad wrote: »

effective actions require thinking and planning, anything else is just about making us feel good .

I think that is slightly unfair and a little simplistic. As a race we have experienced a fair few humanitarian disasters, and plenty of people much cleverer than us have done a lot of thinking about it. At this stage there is plenty of rungs that can be done, which are very effective, without too much analysis.

It does not take a Nobel prize winning thinker to know the kinds of rungs that refugees need. Pretty much irrespective of where they come from or why they are coming from there, they need the same things. Most basically, food and shelter. It isn't quite a no brainer, but it isn't far off it. For this kind of thing the thinking has already been done, it needs doing.

Fixing the underlying issue, yeah, that's enough to tie up The Heart of Gold.

MrP

robindch

There are reports that at least one of our religious friends has been taking advantage of the European refugee crisis by converting muslims to christianity, a process which allows the converts to claim plausibly that they'll be persecuted should they return home:

http://mashable.com/2015/09/05/refugees-converting-to-christianity/

Mashable wrote:

BERLIN — Mohammed Ali Zonoobi bends his head as the priest pours holy water over his black hair. "Will you break away from Satan and his evil deeds?" pastor Gottfried Martens asks the Iranian refugee. "Will you break away from Islam?" "Yes," Zonoobi fervently replies. Spreading his hands in blessing, Martens then baptizes the man "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost."

Mohammed is now Martin — no longer Muslim, but Christian. Zonoobi, a carpenter from the Iranian city of Shiraz, arrived in Germany with his wife and two children five months ago. He is one of hundreds of mostly Iranian and Afghan asylum seekers who have converted to Christianity at the evangelical Trinity Church in a leafy Berlin neighborhood.

Like Zonoobi, most say true belief prompted their embrace of Christianity. But there's no overlooking the fact that the decision will also greatly boost their chances of winning asylum by allowing them to claim they would face persecution if sent home. Martens recognizes that some convert in order to improve their chances of staying in Germany — but for the pastor, motivation is unimportant. Many, he said, are so taken by the Christian message that it changes their lives. And he estimates that only about 10% of converts do not return to church after christening.

"I know there are — again and again — people coming here because they have some kind of hope regarding their asylum," Martens said. "I am inviting them to join us because I know that whoever comes here will not be left unchanged." Being Christian alone does not help an applicant, and Chancellor Angela Merkel went out of her way this week to reiterate that Islam "belongs in Germany." But in Afghanistan and Iran, for example, conversion to Christianity by a Muslim could be punished by death or imprisonment, and it is therefore unlikely that Germany would deport converted Iranian and Afghan refugees back home.

None will openly admit to converting in order to help their asylum chances. To do so could result in rejection of their asylum bid and deportation as Christian converts. Several candidates for baptism at Martens' church would not give their names out of fear of repercussions for their families back home. Most said their decision was based on belief, but one young Iranian woman said she was convinced most people had joined the church only to improve their chances for asylum.

[...]

In 2013, the local bishop declared it "a miracle" that so many refugees were coming forward:

ILC Online wrote:

“It is a kind of miracle which we experience in Berlin right now,” explained Rev. Dr. Jobst H.M. Schöne (Bishop Emeritus of SELK) during a 2013 visit to Canada. It all began when a few Iranians showed up for service at the church one Sunday, he said. As time went on, they expressed an interest in being baptized. “We thought at the beginning,” Dr. Schöne reflects, “that’s it: two people, maybe three people, maybe four people. I tell you, it’s now more than 300.”

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

There are reports that at least one of our religious friends has been taking advantage of the European refugee crisis by converting muslims to christianity, a process which allows the converts to claim plausibly that they'll be persecuted should they return home:

http://mashable.com/2015/09/05/refugees-converting-to-christianity/

In 2013, the local bishop declared it "a miracle" that so many refugees were coming forward:

Note then to all volunteering to aid refugees - do not offer them soup.