The Hazards of Belief

robindch

Anybody think it's worth stickying a cautionary thread? This sad story just in today:

http://today.reuters.com/news/ArticleNews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2006-06-05T133715Z_01_L05642927_RTRUKOC_0_US-UKRAINE-LION.xml

KIEV (Reuters) - A man shouting that God would keep him safe was mauled to death by a lioness in Kiev zoo after he crept into the animal's enclosure, a zoo official said on Monday.

"The man shouted 'God will save me, if he exists', lowered himself by a rope into the enclosure, took his shoes off and went up to the lions," the official said. "A lioness went straight for him, knocked him down and severed his carotid artery."

The incident, Sunday evening when the zoo was packed with visitors, was the first of its kind at the attraction. Lions and tigers are kept in an "animal island" protected by thick concrete blocks.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

maybe I'm just cruel, but when I heard about that the day before yesterday I laughed quite heartily.


in the worlds of bill hicks, he was a moron.. now he's dead. Good. I don't think we lost a cure for cancer here.

Scofflaw

"If he exists"...hmm. Sounds more like the perils of agnosticism?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Rev Hellfire

You see thats just typical of you robindch this disproves nothing.

Rather if the mans faith in god had been stronger than the lions faith in Apedemek he would have been safe.

Zombrex

I guess we all know what is going to win the Darwin Award next next

I would imagine this poor man had serious mental health problems, because he got himself into the situation in the first place. But of course there are plenty of examples of religious people believing God will save them in situations they didn't get themselves into, such as being trapped in a fire or Earthquake.

I suppose the lesson here is God won't save you, even if you believe he exists.

Zillah

I saw that story on Fortean times not long ago. I found it hilarious.

Dades

robindch wrote:

Anybody think it's worth stickying a cautionary thread?

Although it could be fun to have a thread with stories of the misfortunes exceptionally delusional people, I'm not sure stickying it promotes the best message for us? "Come join the A/A forum, but first read the charter and hilarious stories of how believers stupidly put their faith in a god".

Open to debate though.

Rev Hellfire

Maybe you're looking at this wrong. This could be a sticky in which suggestions for ways people could actively and verifiably test their faith in a god could be put forward.

Playboy

Very tragic event. Unfortunately people with mental illness such as schizophrenia suffer from God delusions which would make them attempt something like this. Very sad indeed.

growler

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Maybe you're looking at this wrong. This could be a sticky in which suggestions for ways people could actively and verifiably test their faith in a god could be put forward.

Wouldn't that be better suited to the Christianity / Islam forums though ?

One has to admire his decision to test his faith in a lion's den, very biblical of him.

Asiaprod

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Maybe you're looking at this wrong. This could be a sticky in which suggestions for ways people could actively and verifiably test their faith in a god could be put forward.

If I might feel better as,

A sticky in which people have actively tried to validate faith in their god.

monkeyfudge

It sounds like it was a surprisingly clean kill though... that's got to be worth something?

Valmont

Scofflaw wrote:

"If he exists"...hmm. Sounds more like the perils of agnosticism?

cordially,
Scofflaw

this forum seriously just cracks me up every time I'm on,lol

Dades

robindch wrote:

Anybody think it's worth stickying a cautionary thread? This sad story just in today:

http://today.reuters.com/news/ArticleNews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2006-06-05T133715Z_01_L05642927_RTRUKOC_0_US-UKRAINE-LION.xml

Look what I found - thankfully a shortened version that leaves the rest to the imagination...

http://www.infidelguy.com/modules.php?name=Video&op=view&video_id=6

Stephen

At least he's not going to be polluting the gene pool any more.

Playboy

Stephen wrote:

At least he's not going to be polluting the gene pool any more.

Jesus the guy was obviously mentally ill. Would you say that about a person who died of cancer? No wonder we have a bad name as a community when people on this board think tragedies are funny.

Zombrex

Playboy wrote:

Jesus the guy was obviously mentally ill. Would you say that about a person who died of cancer? No wonder we have a bad name as a community when people on this board think tragedies are funny.

Obviously you don't approve of the Darwin Awards

And some times we have laugh at a tragedy as the only way to help everyone deal with such senselessness ....









... of course other times we laugh because its just so funny!

BTW this is similar to a incent in Taiwan in 2004
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6396422

A man leaped into a lion’s den at the Taipei Zoo on Wednesday to try to convert the king of beasts to Christianity, but was bitten in the leg for his efforts.

Dades

Playboy wrote:

No wonder we have a bad name as a community when people on this board think tragedies are funny.

Who says we have a bad name? I want their name, numbers and IP addresses now.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

atheists are a community now?

Playboy

ye a community of smart asses who get to together to pat each other on the back about how intelligent they are in comparison to theists and laugh at the misfortune of the mentally ill.

Stephen

So you think it would have been a good idea for this guy to reproduce then?

Playboy

Why dont you go tell every child of a mentally ill parent that their life is worthless and the world would be a better place without them. Who are you to judge what kind of a child this guy would have?

robindch

> Why dont you go tell every child of a mentally ill parent that their life
> is worthless and the world would be a better place without them.

Calm down. The poster was referring (as Wicknight pointed out), to the Darwin Awards:

http://www.darwinawards.com/

And no, from the new report, the guy wasn't obviously mentally unbalanced, at least no more than the average religious believer who thinks that their god or gods will protect them from whatever happens by.

Playboy

robindch wrote:

Calm down. The poster was referring (as Wicknight pointed out), to the Darwin Awards:

http://www.darwinawards.com/

I dont really care who was refering to what. A man died in tragic circumstances. I find it hard to believe that people on here find that an amusing topic. Or maybe it's as Wicknight said and ye are only laughing in order to deal with the senselessness

robindch wrote:

And no, from the new report, the guy wasn't obviously mentally unbalanced, at least no more than the average religious believer who thinks that their god or gods will protect them from whatever happens by.

Are you serious? You are telling me that the guy was no more mentally unbalanced than the average religious believer. I dont think it takes a genius to figure out that the guy had serious mental health issues otherwise there wouldnt be very many religious people left as they would all have had commited suicide to test their faith.

Asiaprod

Playboy wrote:

I dont really care who was refering to what. A man died in tragic circumstances. I find it hard to believe that people on here find that an amusing topic.

Playboy, really, calm down. You are reading from an emotional perspective way to much into the reactions here to this story. Use your intellect, not your emotion. Robindch did not say what you think he said. Argue logically.

Rev Hellfire

I think Schadenfreude is perfectly normal behaviour and one common to most right thinking individuals.

I strongly dislike the idea that somehow the disabled (or any other group) are untouchables who can not be laughed at. Some things are just simply just funny, Personally I dont see how this takes away from those with disablities and I suspect few others would.

HealingBlight

KIEV (Reuters) - A man shouting that God would keep him safe was mauled to death by a lioness in Kiev zoo after he crept into the animal's enclosure, a zoo official said on Monday.

You know, I'm tempted to go, well.... good riddance, but, I wont say..... good riddance, even though I do want to say.... good riddance.

"The man shouted 'God will save me, if he exists', lowered himself by a rope into the enclosure, took his shoes off and went up to the lions," the official said.

This infact is true. Ever hear the saying "Nothing fails lie prayer"?
BTW, I do recall that somewhere in the biblethat if you have faith you can ingest the strogest of poisions and be bitten by snakes with no ill effect as long as you have faith.... so I guess thats what might of triggered it.

"A lioness went straight for him, knocked him down and severed his carotid artery."

This is infact, natural selection, nature is harsh from a human standpoint.

The incident, Sunday evening when the zoo was packed with visitors, was the first of its kind at the attraction. Lions and tigers are kept in an "animal island" protected by thick concrete blocks.

So it was his own god damn fault for being so stupid, and this is the kind of blind faith being encouraged by religion, however when put into action, it soon becomes apparent how stupid he is.

bus77

There's something in the new testament about this type of thing.

Think it was one of Satans tests for Jesus. Goes something like.... "If you are the son of God, go up to that cliff and jump off. God will surely send the angels to catch you.'' The reply from Jesus... "Don't test God"

Playboy

Asiaprod wrote:

Playboy, really, calm down. You are reading from an emotional perspective way to much into the reactions here to this story. Use your intellect, not your emotion. Robindch did not say what you think he said. Argue logically.

eh I'm completley calm and logical? Someone made a comment about how that it was a good thing that this guy was removed from the gene pool and i responded. Other people on this board have more or less laughed at what happened without one person expressing any sympathy. My logic goes like this Asiaprod. The guy obviously had issues and he didnt commit suicide becuase he was just 'stupid' like most people on here seem to think. This tragedy has nothing to do with any religion or what any religion teaches contrary to what Healingblight thinks. From what I can gather this forum exists so atheists can come together to massage each others ego's in relation to how smart and logical they are and laugh at the so called stupidity of people with religious belief. Imo the attitudes of most of the people on this board represent all of the negative stereotypes people have about atheists which other atheists are spending a lot of energy trying to get rid of.

perfidiousmonk

There's something in the new testament about this type of thing.
Bus 77 is quite right. When Jesus went out into the Desert to fast for 40 dayts and nights, the Devil tempted and tormented him, and the culmination of this was that he tested his faith in a number of ways.
In an attempt to force him to prove his faith he took him to hte top of the highest known building, and told him to jump, saying that, as the son of god, the angels of heaven vwould surely save him, proving his claim.
Jesus turned him down, saying something along the lines of God helps those who help themselves, and do not rely on his good will.
That would certainly apply to this man's (the recently deceased Lion teaser and pleaser), for if he truly he had faith in Gods will he would have had no need to test it so.

Fallen Seraph

Playboy wrote:

The guy obviously had issues and he didnt commit suicide becuase he was just 'stupid' like most people on here seem to think. This tragedy has nothing to do with any religion or what any religion teaches contrary to what Healingblight thinks.

The guy did obviously have issues, but there is nothing in any of the information that has been furnished to suggest that the issues were anything other than an over zealous belief in his god. To say that this tragedy has nothing to do with religion is quite a baseless statement.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yes we are being cruel, but welcome to humanity. We're not all that nice.

jesus christ

Playboy

Fallen Seraph wrote:

The guy did obviously have issues, but there is nothing in any of the information that has been furnished to suggest that the issues were anything other than an over zealous belief in his god. To say that this tragedy has nothing to do with religion is quite a baseless statement.

Religion and a belief in a God are not the same thing. It is actually baseless to try and connect this to religion since no religion teaches that kind of behaviour nor does it encourage it.

pH

Playboy wrote:

My logic goes like this Asiaprod. The guy obviously had issues and he didnt commit suicide becuase he was just 'stupid' like most people on here seem to think.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. You seem to be arguing that anyone with a strong faith in a personal intervening God has 'mental issues'!

You're whining at others who are merely calling them stupid?

This tragedy has nothing to do with any religion or what any religion teaches contrary to what Healingblight thinks.

Quite a philosophical statement there Playboy - I'm calling it philosophical in the sense it's not backed by any evidence or argument.

In a world still dominated by 'miracle stories' where God responds to prayers of the pious to cure cancer etc, ONE story showing clearly that this does not actually happen seems entirely appropriate.

robindch

> This tragedy has nothing to do with any religion or what any religion teaches

Nonsense. Had the guy not been told by somebody that the sky pixie would protect him, then he'd probably be still alive -- religion is directly responsible for feeding this man a fatal illusion which lead to his death. If he was mentally unbalanced, as you suggested, then the man's religious leaders are doubly responsible, as they took advantage of his illness as well as fed him lies. Whatever way you look at it, religious lies cause this man's death and there's nothing funny or laughable about that.

Here's another fatal illusion which fundamentalist christianity tries on:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers_2.html

"There are over 100 documented deaths from serpent bites" -- do you believe that religion is blameless here too?

Playboy

pH wrote:

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. You seem to be arguing that anyone with a strong faith in a personal intervening God has 'mental issues'!

You're whining at others who are merely calling them stupid?

I'm not going to waste energy on arguing such a ridiculous point. If you want to think that his actions were one of a sane individual then you are entitled to that opinion but I would have to disagree.

pH wrote:

Quite a philosophical statement there Playboy - I'm calling it philosophical in the sense it's not backed by any evidence or argument.

That doesnt make any sense. What do you think philosophers write in those large volumes they knock out other than evidence and argument. Tbh your childish disdain for philosophy is growing tiresome pH. You had a chance on a couple of other threads to back up your uninformed opinions on philosophy and you declined to do so. I can only imagine it was becuase you had nothing to say.

Playboy

robindch wrote:

> This tragedy has nothing to do with any religion or what any religion teaches

Nonsense. Had the guy not been told by somebody that the sky pixie would protect him, then he'd probably be still alive -- religion is directly responsible for feeding this man a fatal illusion which lead to his death. If he was mentally unbalanced, as you suggested, then the man's religious leaders are doubly responsible, as they took advantage of his illness as well as fed him lies. Whatever way you look at it, religious lies cause this man's death and there's nothing funny or laughable about that.

Here's another fatal illusion which fundamentalist christianity tries on:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers_2.html

"There are over 100 documented deaths from serpent bites" -- do you believe that religion is blameless here too?

These are 2 completley different types of events. Religion does not condone nor does it encourage this type of behaviour. To compare this event to some obscure religious practice in the bible belt is completley disengenous.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

That doesnt make any sense. What do you think philosophers write in those large volumes they knock out other than evidence and argument.

guesses...educated guesses alot of the time to be sure, but still.. they are just guesses. Plato didnd't know any more about the universe than my five year old cousin, he just thought about it alot more and convinced himself (and others) that what he thought was correct.

Playboy

Mordeth wrote:

guesses...educated guesses alot of the time to be sure, but still.. they are just guesses. Plato didnd't know any more about the universe than my five year old cousin, he just thought about it alot more and convinced himself (and others) that what he thought was correct.

Philosophy is logical argument and evidence. It might not be scientific evidence but there is still evidence. If there was no evidence then there would be no basis for the reasoning and hence it wouldnt be logical.

Dades

Playboy wrote:

ye a community of smart asses who get to together to pat each other on the back about how intelligent they are in comparison to theists and laugh at the misfortune of the mentally ill.

Thats your opinion. Take it with you on the way back to the philosophy board where of course you'd never find any smart asses or ego rubbing.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

It might not be scientific evidence but there is still evidence.

whatever evidence there is is whatever evidence the 'philosopher' thinks is appropriate, or whatever he/she decides to pull out of their head. but anyway I'm not trying to go off on a rant about philosophers, although I don't really like most of them .. they can't all be david hume.

pH

Playboy wrote:

I'm not going to waste energy on arguing such a ridiculous point. If you want to think that his actions were one of a sane individual then you are entitled to that opinion but I would have to disagree.

So you're prepared to make the point but not support it by argument. As for wasting energy, as someone who's 'studied' philosophy I'd have thought you'd be used to it.

Philosophy is logical argument and evidence. It might not be scientific evidence but there is still evidence. If there was no evidence then there would be no basis for the reasoning and hence it wouldnt be logical.

There's no evidence, it's all tosh and you know it - it's for people who want to look smart but don't have any real intelligence.

And are you still maintaining that: Anyone who believes that in a perilous situation that God will save them has mental issues?

I suppose you have 'evidence' for this rubbish too?

From what I can gather this forum exists so atheists can come together to massage each others ego's in relation to how smart and logical they are and laugh at the so called stupidity of people with religious belief. Imo the attitudes of most of the people on this board represent all of the negative stereotypes people have about atheists which other atheists are spending a lot of energy trying to get rid of.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

There's no evidence, it's all tosh and you know it - it's for people who want to look smart but don't have any real intelligence.

mostly yeah.. but cmon, there are some gem's out there. Philosophy would be great if not for philosphers and philosophy students.

pH

It's his "I'm a philosopher! - no one else is entitled to an opinion that differs from mine - none of you think clearly" attitude that amuses me.

Earlier on this thread for example he was lecturing some posters on what that they should and shouldn't find funny!

Playboy wrote:

Tbh your childish disdain for philosophy is growing tiresome pH.

And to make it absolutely clear, the last thing I'd do is go and troll the philosophy forum with my opinions, in the way he trolls here about atheists.

Fallen Seraph

Playboy wrote:

Religion and a belief in a God are not the same thing. It is actually baseless to try and connect this to religion since no religion teaches that kind of behaviour nor does it encourage it.

This might have been mentioned before, but here's the quote

Mark 16:17-18 wrote:

These signs will accompany those who believe: [...] they will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them

That's just the NT, I don't know if there's anything similar in the OT or Koran, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Playboy

The Atheist wrote:

Thats your opinion. Take it with you on the way back to the philosophy board where of course you'd never find any smart asses or ego rubbing.

Since you mod the forum and fought for its creation I thought you would be concerned about the direction of the forum and its purpose. I am an agnostic so I supported the creation of the forum. What I am expressing here is what I feel this forum has degenerated into. Can you tell me what the purpose of this forum is apart from what I stated that it seemed to be? Why did you want this forum in the first place and do you think it achieves anything such as combating religious misinformation, promoting a positive image for atheists and agnostics alike and promoting positive dialougue between atheists and thiests? How about a responsible attitude instead of childlishly telling me to sling my hook.

Playboy

Mordeth wrote:

whatever evidence there is is whatever evidence the 'philosopher' thinks is appropriate, or whatever he/she decides to pull out of their head. but anyway I'm not trying to go off on a rant about philosophers, although I don't really like most of them .. they can't all be david hume.

Here is a hint. Pick up something other than a Terry Prachet novel for a change and you might be in a better postion to discuss the merits of something like philosophy. I would look a bit foolish if I tried to discuss Terry Prachets writing when I had never read any or skimmed through a couple of his books wouldnt I? Why do you think its ok to do the same?

Playboy

pH wrote:

So you're prepared to make the point but not support it by argument. As for wasting energy, as someone who's 'studied' philosophy I'd have thought you'd be used to it.

How can we argue the point?

We have the same evidence but draw different conclusions.

A guy gets killed when he puts himself in mortal danger by breaking into a Lions enclosure whilst shouting that If God exists he will save me.

Conclusion A: This is highly abnormal and possibly suicidal behaviour which would indicate that the individual was suffering from some kind of mental illness.

Conclusion B. The guy woke one morning and decided that it was a good day to test his faith in God without taking any advice from a member of the clergy. Even though the man had no logical reason to believe that God should intervene on his behalf becuase it contradicts the teaching of the church he decided to risk his life anyway. The guy died and therefore was stupid.


Which really seems more plausible?

pH wrote:

There's no evidence, it's all tosh and you know it - it's for people who want to look smart but don't have any real intelligence.

Hmmm ... Im starting to think you like making yourself look stupid. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054900215&page=3 Go to the bottom of that thread and answer the questions you were asked the last time you made a claim similar to this one.

pH wrote:

And are you still maintaining that: Anyone who believes that in a perilous situation that God will save them has mental issues?

Anybody who puts themselves in mortal danger for the sole purpose of proving the existence of God to themselves in my opinion suffers from mental issues.

pH wrote:

I suppose you have 'evidence' for this rubbish too?

From what I can gather this forum exists so atheists can come together to massage each others ego's in relation to how smart and logical they are and laugh at the so called stupidity of people with religious belief. Imo the attitudes of most of the people on this board represent all of the negative stereotypes people have about atheists which other atheists are spending a lot of energy trying to get rid of.

Its in most threads on this board from posters like you.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Here is a hint. Pick up something other than a Terry Prachet novel for a change and you might be in a better postion to discuss the merits of something like philosophy. I would look a bit foolish if I tried to discuss Terry Prachets writing when I had never read any or skimmed through a couple of his books wouldnt I? Why do you think its ok to do the same?

you're such an intelligent person, I'll stop doing what I'm doing and listen to you straight away!

but since what I read defines my intelligence, atm I'm reading daniel c dennet - the psychology of religion: breaking the spell, john ralson saul - voltaires bastards: the dictatorship of reason in the west.. last books I read were david hume - theory concerning human understanding (I didn't really get it), diane ackerman - an alchemy of mind and something by simone de beavouir or somesuch..

so respectfully, stfu.

Fallen Seraph

On further thought, I think your analysis of the situation quite accurate Playboy.

Also, this thread is turning into a flamewar.

Playboy

Mordeth wrote:

you're such an intelligent person, I'll stop doing what I'm doing and listen to you straight away!

but since what I read defines my intelligence, atm I'm reading daniel c dennet - the psychology of religion: breaking the spell, john ralson saul - voltaires bastards: the dictatorship of reason in the west.. last books I read were david hume - theory concerning human understanding (I didn't really get it), diane ackerman - an alchemy of mind and something by simone de beavouir or somesuch..

so respectfully, stfu.

And you are still clueless. Just shows that reading without intelligence is about as pointless as TV without electricity. You made a statement about philosophy. You were wrong. Deal with and stop being a child.