The Hazards of Belief

Shrap

Penn wrote: »

It's like seeing someone you haven't seen in a few years. Sure, they've gotten really fat, but you're not supposed to say it. It's fine to talk about it behind their back to people you know agree with you and won't tell them you said it, but if it got out in the open, you may have to apologise, because talking about how fat they got is rude and might hurt their feeling, regardless of how true it is. Likewise, the apology wasn't that what the priest said was wrong, it was that he said it.

This is the worst post I've ever made. Even I don't understand what I just wrote. Ignore everything.

I actually get what you mean! Don't know what that says about me

You're right though - clearly there are many priests, etc. in the church who genuinely think the same about homosexuality, but they've learned (for the most part) to filter their thoughts so they don't come straight out of their mouths, but are more culturally nuanced. This priest still had his Nigerian filter engaged and will have to learn an Irish one.

I firmly believe many Irish priests are thinking exactly what that bloke said - hence the fluffed "it's in the bible" apology.

Peregrinus

MrPudding wrote: »

As an excuse it is a pretty poor one, and it does beg the question: if what he said required and apology then you consider what he said to be wrong. But if what he said was based on the bible then what does that say about the bible?

Well, except it's not the excuse the bishop offered; it's the excuse that Penn (jokingly) said the bishop offered.

What the bishop actually said, according to the Irish Times, is that Fr. Okerere "had been reflecting on the scripture readings of the day which had at their core the theme of marriage". And,evidently, his reflections led him to say that the yes vote was “evidence the devil was at work in Ireland”. But the statement that "my reflection on Text X lead me to assert Claim Y" is not a statement that Text X makes Claim Y. There is no suggestion that Okere ever claimed that the Bible said anything about the devil being at work in Ireland. That would be a ridiculous claim to make. But, as he never claimed it, the bishop doesn't have to retract the claim.

The IT also reports that some congregants "also alleged Fr Okere said those who voted yes in the referendum were 'devil worshippers'”. I don't think we can read the bishop's remarks as a response to that claim, since it's not clear if anybody put that claim to him, or if he was aware of it. The claim first surfaces, SFAIK, in the IT report which also reports on the bishop's apology.

Penn

Peregrinus wrote: »

There is no suggestion that Okere ever claimed that the Bible said anything about the devil being at work in Ireland. That would be a ridiculous claim to make

And no one here claimed that the Bible said anything so specific and foreboding.

However, there is a pretty clear link between:

In his apology, Dr Duffy, Bishop of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise, said Fr Okere had been reflecting on the scripture readings of the day which had at their core the theme of marriage.

The priest’s actual claims were not repeated in Bishop Duffy’s apology but are alleged to have included words to the effect the referendum result was “evidence the devil was at work in Ireland”.

And it's not a link which we are making, it's a link which the Bishop is making as part of his apology (on behalf of Fr.Okere). It's the Bishop who is saying that Fr.Okere's reflection on the readings that day (regarding marriage) led him to say that the result of the marriage referendum was evidence the devil was at work in Ireland.

robindch

MrPudding wrote: »

[...] apology [...]

I'll go to my grave pointing this out every second week :rolleyes: but "I'm sorry you got offended" is not an apology - it's an unpology:

The Guy who Defined Unpology wrote:

The facade of an apology created by uttering obligatory words of remorse devoid of actual regret, contrition, or even an admission of guilt.

Compare the bishop's statement:

Francis Duffy wrote:

Father Joseph Okere celebrated the 10.00am Mass in Saint Mel’s Cathedral yesterday Sunday, 4 October. Comments were made about the recent marriage referendum while reflecting on the Scripture Readings of the day which had at their core the theme of marriage. The language used caused offence to some people. Father Joseph did not intend to hurt anyone and is sorry for doing so. I too apologise for any insensitivity.

As Pope Francis said yesterday in his homily at the opening the Synod of Bishops on the family, we must “reach out to others with true love, to walk with our fellow men and women who suffer, to include them and guide them to the wellspring of salvation”. During May, in my own public statements in support of the sacrament of marriage, I emphasised the dignity that is inherent in all people, whatever their sexuality; and the necessity for the Church to reaffirm its determination to welcome, and show respect and compassion, to everyone in our community.

Duffy said that the comments "caused offence to some people", but did not call the comments themselves offensive. The comments were not withdrawn. And Duffy did not apologize for Okere making them. Neither did Mr Okere himself withdraw his comments, or apologize for making them, or indeed, appear to take any part in this by-the-numbers damage-limitation exercise.

The bishop's text was referred to universally as "an apology", but it's nothing of the kind.

Nodin

When re-writing history, its very important to make sure nobody has a copy of the original -

"The former president of Ireland Mary McAleese has dismissed a statement by the Archbishop of Philadelphia Charles Chaput that the Catholic Church never said homosexuals were disordered.
Speaking to The Irish Times on Wednesday Archbishop Chaput, who recently hosted the World Summit of Families in Philadelphia which was attended by Pope Francis, said “I’ve read the documents and the church has never said that homosexual persons are disordered.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mcaleese-maintains-church-deemed-homosexuality-disorder-1.2383749

The denial is actually comedy gold when you read the detail of mc aleeses response.....

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

The denial is actually comedy gold [...]

McAleese should have gone one step further, given Chaput's escalation - "Given that Archbishop Chaput is unaware of Catholic Doctrine on homosexuality, I would be interested to learn how he can conclude that I'm attempting to change it."

Penn

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

So as you see, they don't say homosexual persons are disordered, they just say homosexual acts and feelings are disordered. Totally different.

robindch

Penn wrote: »

So as you see, they don't say homosexual persons are disordered, they just say homosexual acts and feelings are disordered. Totally different.

Not sure whether you're being sarky here, but you are quite correct - the church's view is that the inclination is disordered, but the person is not. It's a jesuitlical distinction very much along the lines of "love the sinner, but not the sin" - most people simply can't, or don't, think in this way. And regardless of that, many catholics probably believe that the church condemns homosexuals as well as homosexuality - the church does not make much effort to separate the two.

Penn

robindch wrote: »

Not sure whether you're being sarky here

Oh definitely being sarky. Almost always. But was doing so to make the point of how stupid the "Homosexuals who do or think anything homosexually is evil, but the actual homosexual isn't because otherwise that just sounds mean" line of defense is, and how little true difference there is between 'Homosexuals are intrinsically disordered' and 'Homosexual acts/feelings are intrinsically disordered'.

recedite

To be fair, the "jesuitical distinction" is entirely reasonable. It allows for homosexuals to remain within the fold if they remain celibate. And even to become priests.
And I do feel a bit sorry for poor Fr Joe O'Kebe. Somebody obviously told him he was coming to a catholic country, and he probably thought he was safe enough promoting the bible inside a church. An Irish priest would have known the score, but we are a bit low on them at the moment :pac:

Consider the church position re paedophiles; in theory its very similar. The behaviour is declared to be intrinsically "disordered" but if the person doesn't act on their impulses they can be forgiven. Once forgiveness and repentance are achieved, they should be protected from civil authorities. The seal of the confession and all that.
It all makes perfect sense, if the bible is truthful, and Canon Law is god's law.

Pawwed Rig

More nonsense. Hindus this time

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34473354

Politicians from India's ruling Hindu nationalist BJP party have beaten a Muslim member of the Kashmir state assembly, after he served beef at a private party in a hostel for state lawmakers.
Rashid Ahmed was kicked and punched before being rescued by opposition MPs. India's majority Hindu population consider cows to be sacred.
Most Indian states have tightened laws banning the sale and consumption of beef and there has been an increase in violence against those accused of breaking the ban.

recedite

Syrian woman killed for being involved in her own gang rape.
German police left scratching their heads.
Some will say its not religion, but culture, that says she was unclean.
I'm not buying it though. Religion has a big influence on "culture".

Hotblack Desiato

Father Trendy in Spain wants 24/7 churches, pet food and wifi.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34428636

Nodin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Father Trendy in Spain wants 24/7 churches, pet food and wifi.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34428636

Hipster churches...jaysus help us all....

Penn

A confession app.

robindch

Penn wrote: »

A confession app.

You think the Ashley Madison data breach was fun?

Can't wait until somebody cracks open this one :rolleyes:

recedite

Free biscuits and dog treats!
Should be renamed the Church of St. Pavlov.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

[...] the Church of St. Pavlov.

Incidentally, for anybody with the time or inclination to visit Russia these days - St Petersburg's "Museum of Hygiene" is unmissable:

http://www.saint-petersburg.com/museums/museum-hygiene/

Pavlov's dog (stuffed) is there. With, in place, the original knobs controlling the voltage, as well as much else besides, supplied to the unfortunate mutt.

Hotblack Desiato

A little bit of protestant triumphalism in the IT to start off the day.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/rite-reason-the-republic-is-now-a-warm-place-for-protestants-1.2388901

Alright for him when the CoI has far more schools than its numbers warrant (mostly filled with children of current and ex-catholics!) and is favoured in school transport rules. Do they still have a subsidy for boarding schools or was that taken away?

Still very much a cold place for the non-religious.

recedite

After a few months they can stop supplying the free biscuits; Simply ringing the church bell will draw in the crowd. Just like in the old days.
This could be a pilot scheme to try out a new type of recruitment strategy

Nodin

Monky business (yes, I am indeed 'worse than Hitler', thanks)
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/thailand-bans-film-depictions-buddhist-monks-151013072814630.html

robindch

^^^

AlJazeera wrote:

Arbat, which translates from Thai as "violations committed by monks", was scheduled for nationwide release on Thursday.

Noviy Arbat (Новый Арбат, 'New Arbat') is one of Moscow's main drags out of the city center - always wondered what it meant :rolleyes:

Last time I was there, Putin was dragging his nukes up and down the street for the admiration of the crowds, just a few months after his armies invaded Georgia.

robindch

Last week, a country commissioner in Tennessee wanted her fellow commissioners to issue a condemnation of "judicial tyranny and petitioning God’s mercy" in respect of the USSC's ruling on marriage equality:

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/tenn-county-to-consider-resolution-begging-god-to-spare-them-his-coming-wrath-over-same-sex-marriage/
http://www.blounttn.org/comm/agenda/AG151006.PDF

However, the resolution was killed before it could get to a vote:

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/2015/10/06/blount-county-commission-consider-resolution-regarding-gay-marriage/73454190/

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

Last week, a country commissioner in Tennessee wanted her fellow commissioners to issue a condemnation of "judicial tyranny and petitioning God’s mercy" in respect of the USSC's ruling on marriage equality:

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/tenn-county-to-consider-resolution-begging-god-to-spare-them-his-coming-wrath-over-same-sex-marriage/
http://www.blounttn.org/comm/agenda/AG151006.PDF

However, the resolution was killed before it could get to a vote:

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/2015/10/06/blount-county-commission-consider-resolution-regarding-gay-marriage/73454190/

Good old Tennessee. Where you can visit the Jack Daniels distillery and discover the county its in is alcohol free.

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

Good old Tennessee.

Not the only reason Tennessee's in the news this week

Need a gun? Prepared to declare for Jesus? Get your 5% discount!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/13/guns-are-cheaper-at-this-tennessee-store-if-you-re-a-christian.html

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

Not the only reason Tennessee's in the news this week

Need a gun? Prepared to declare for Jesus? Get your 5% discount!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/13/guns-are-cheaper-at-this-tennessee-store-if-you-re-a-christian.html

Having a gra for the firearms myself, I cannot criticise those who would take advantage - unless they aren't Christians and are lying for the discount.

robindch

A family go to a church for a "spiritual counseling session". And the parents end up putting one of their kids in hospital and killing the other one.

http://news.yahoo.com/police-unsure-sins-provoked-attack-brothers-054706362.html

Yahoo wrote:

NEW HARTFORD, N.Y. (AP) — Parents charged with beating their teenage son to death inside a church are giving diverging versions of what happened, though lawyers for both said Thursday the couple hadn't intended the brutality that unfolded. An attorney for the mother, Deborah Leonard, said she felt helpless to stop an "intervention" that spiraled into severe punishment by others at the Word of Life Christian Church. But a lawyer for the father, Bruce Leonard, said the incident stemmed from a family meeting that had nothing to do with the church.

Police have said a spiritual counseling session devolved into violence Sunday night at the Word of Life, as members tried to get Lucas Leonard, 19, and his 17-year-old brother, Christopher, to confess sins and seek forgiveness. After hours of being pounded with fists and kicked, the elder teen died and his brother was hospitalized with serious injuries, though police said Thursday his condition was improving. "We want to understand why this happened, how this session got so out of control that it cost the life of a young man," New Hartford police Chief Michael Inserra said in an interview. Police say they aren't certain why the teens were being punished.

A timid Deborah Leonard "went along with" others in a church where she had worshipped for years, not anticipating how harsh the intervention would become, said her lawyer, Devin Garramone. "She didn't have the temerity to stand up to them and say, 'You're not punishing my kid,'" said Garramone, adding that he believed she didn't cause the fatal injuries. Bruce Leonard's lawyer, Donald Gerace, said the episode "could just as well have taken place outside the church." He said the Leonards had no intention of seriously injuring their son. [...]

pauldla

robindch wrote: »

A family go to a church for a "spiritual counseling session". And the parents end up putting one of their kids in hospital and killing the other one.

http://news.yahoo.com/police-unsure-sins-provoked-attack-brothers-054706362.html

The BBC headline reads 'wanted to leave church'; their father was the founder.

I suppose we should be grateful for the RCC 'Hotel California' approach to membership.

biko

Teen yelling 'Allahu Akbar' attacks teacher
The 15-year-old, who was arrested after the attack, had intended to kill his physics teacher, a local prosecutor said.

"He told investigators that he had been plotting for a week," Christian de Rocquigny told the AFP news agency, adding that the teen planned to stab the teacher over a previous dispute before dying as a martyr.
http://www.thelocal.fr/20151013/teen-yelling-allahu-akbar-shoots-teacher

robindch

Pope Frank continues to stoke the ire of conservatives within the church:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/conflict-at-the-vatican?mbid=social_facebook