Afghan hunger strike in St Patricks.

juslookin

juslookin wrote:

Nobody is celebrating sendign the kids back to whereever.

Looking for some milk of human kindness for the plight of the younger people caught up in all this, but having no luck in posts like...

rkeane wrote:

Last night was fantastic - down with the PC-brigade

Catney wrote:

Think i'll make myself a cheese sandwich to celebrate!!

I just hope they caught the end of the eurovision.

Hard luck Hallehujah!!!!!

DOLEMAN wrote:

Notice how they didn't commit suicide? ****ing pansies...! heheh

pjproby

i can't get over the contrast between east and west-the irish illegals in america and elsewhere just get on with it-the afghans threaten suicide!

juslookin

nobody celebrating sending anyone any where ...

challenging ridiculousness with ridiculosness ?

celabrating the end of ridiculousness

critiscism of the PC brigade is valid. you even as much admitted it yourself

pjproby

pjproby wrote:

the irish illegals in america and elsewhere just get on with it

Bet I could find 40 Irish people in the US who drink too much, beat up their wives, do drugs, commit crime and unlike the Afghans have never crossed the doorway of a church...

Is your point that the Irish are an intrinsically better people than the Afghans?

Bizarre, at a time when we commemorate 10 Irish men who died on hunger strike, to suggest that it's some big East/West difference.

pjproby

not at all-my point is that the aghan's take the nuclear option to solve the problem-they lost my support the moment suicide was mentioned-life's problems are there to be resolved-suicide if ever justified for a cause-could not never be justified for this issue

DublinWriter

…and I never thought that the Daily Mail would find a readership in Ireland. From reading this thread, how wrong was I.

I find it amazing how people sit in judgement here, most being male 20-somethings still living with their parents and never straying beyond the cosy confines of their keyboard, never mind their bedrooms.

How quick these bitter little amateur judges and sociologists were to latch on to the tabloid-claim that one of the asylum seekers was an ex-Taliban rapist and murderer.

For starters, did anyone even bother sourcing this particular story? No. If it’s in the Sunday World, sure it must be true.

Think about it for a second. a) Since when did Garda National Immigration Bureau start publishing the questionnaires it makes asylum seekers fill out. b) How thick do you have to be to write “I am a rapist and a murderer” in response to the question “Why do you want to seek refuge in Ireland?”.

I heard the same defamatory crap spouted on about the Birmingham Six and the Guilford Four when I worked in London.

They were allowed into St.Patrick’s in the first place and initially given permission to stay. But then the senior dioceses of the Church of Ireland got cold feet and the garda were called.

Cue the inevitable “Ohhhh…they’re breaking laws!” response. But laws and the legal instruments of state are not infallible monolithic structures. If McDowell introduced a ‘walking licence’ into the statue books of Ireland, would you be the first in line to purchase one?

Obviously Ghandi’s lessons of civil disobedience were lost on the privileged posters here who sit in their ivory towers and get tetchy if Café Sol runs out of Latte in the morning.

They used to call West-Brits “more Irish than the Irish themselves”. I’d urge most posters on here to have a good look at yourself now and see if you’re “more English than the English themselves”.

ChityWest

Deleted User wrote:

Is your point that the Irish are an intrinsically better people than the Afghans?

I think the point is that the comparison people are making between Irish immigrants to the usa and people immigrating to Ireland is not a valid one when you consider the expectations involved. Irish people never expected or got a single handout from the american government - they kept their heads down (by and large) and worked their asses off. If they had decided to take over a place of worship to make demands they would have been either shot or deported or both.

pjproby

pjproby wrote:

suicide if ever justified for a cause-could not never be justified for this issue

An Afghan could say 10 Irishmen committed suicide for better prison clothes. The Afghans threatened it (but didn't do it) because they allegedly believe they will suffer from actual persecution if returned.

DublinWriter

pjproby wrote:

they lost my support the moment suicide was mentioned

Does that remain your opinion re Bobby Sands et al?

Jonny Arson

DrawYourSword wrote:

We are all satisfied about what has happened but i wouldnt continue to slate the men, i am all for their right to be here if they are successful.

I was against their actions and the way it was reported. If they now complete the process of asylum seeking and are successful i will now know that at least they did it the correct way.

Below is the email i sent through the Indymedia site.

Re: Afghan hunger strike - your coverage
Dear Sir / Madam

My point of view on the matter i refer to above is not relevant for my query.

I would like to bring into question the way and nature that you report on the particular events.
I feel people would have more respect for your publishing if it was more un-biased and just delivered the facts. By censoring comments and by blowing everyone elses opinion out of the water makes you arguements all that bit weaker.
Also in your photos by targeting people's dress sense and publishing photos of peoples faces with out prior permission. I would take a look at this or at the very least seek legal advice on where you stand before publishing a photo of someones face and labelling it a facist.

This is not a threat., a mere ovservation. I have visisted your site on many an occasion prior to this week and have returned.

Kind regards

Indymedia also conveniently deleted an informative comment by me on their newswire on the sole basis that I have a different opinion to their liberal stance.

Independent Media? Absolute bull****!

juslookin

DublinWriter wrote:

…I’d urge most posters on here to have a good look at yourself now and see if you’re “more English than the English themselves”.

is that supposed to be an insult ?

hmmmm .... "rrracism" ... ?

ChityWest

ChityWest wrote:

Irish people never expected or got a single handout from the american government - they kept their heads down (by and large) and worked their asses off.

Do people around the world refer to (i) The Fighting Irish or (ii) The Fighting Afghans?

DublinWriter wrote:

“Ohhhh…they’re breaking laws!” response.

Well said.

I have never seen Irish people get so worked up about the sanctity of a Church before. I suspect many here would find it hard to pinpoint the Church, yet start wailing and gnashing their teeth at the thought that a protest might actually interefere with a Service or two.

pjproby

it was actually a deeper point i was making about how different races deal with problems. i never supported bobby sands et al.

New_Departure06

Please enlighten us all, what is a 'PC thug'? Is there some conspiracy out there, a 'PC Brigade' with 'PC Thugs' plotting away to smash the system? Are they a group made up of 'liberal pinkos'? Is there some website where people get to learn all these phrases and when to use them, like BNP.co.uk?

Where's the big party to celebrate sending kids back to Afghanistan anyway? At least we have moved away from being Catholic Ireland to a country where you'd be hard pressed to find any Christianity at all. As for the 'liberal PC brigade' routine, don't bother. As a card carrying member of FF, I find the suggestion that I'm some radical leftie merely for having a slight bit of humanitarianism hysterical.

It is reasonable to ask for a definition. I would define Political-Correctness as entailing the following:

A: Imposing unnecessary limits on debate.
B: Governing actions/inactions and remarks/absence of remarks on a basis of avoiding perceived offence above all other considerations.

Apart from immigration, PC-ness is also found in other policy areas, especially the EU. In the US, PCness manifests itself most forcefully on the issue of criticism of Israel, whereby any criticism is frowned upon - often inviting charges of "anti-semitism", when in reality there is much reason to criticism Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

Of course, there are some reasonable limits on freedom of speech. They are needed to prevent or punish libel, and incitement to violence or racial slurs against ethnic-groups. I accept that.

But what I resent is how almost any kind of criticism of immigrants is now being labelled as "racist/xenophobic" regardless of the context. That goes beyond what is necessary to avoid racial incitement, and beyond what is acceptable in terms of restricting freedom of speech in a democratic society.

Catney

Deleted User wrote:

Do people around the world refer to (i) The Fighting Irish or (ii) The Fighting Afghans?



Well said.

I have never seen Irish people get so worked up about the sanctity of a Church before. I suspect many here would find it hard to pinpoint the Church, yet start wailing and gnashing their teeth at the thought that a protest might actually interefere with a Service or two.

If they dont call the Afghans "fighting", they damn well should. Watch / Read the news buddy.

Church point: Don't really think that is what people are annoyed about. More to do with the fact that they hold their sacred spaces dear, and disrespected ours. (try to wear shoes in that Mosque in D8, you'll see what i mean)

BuffyBot

…and I never thought that the Daily Mail would find a readership in Ireland. From reading this thread, how wrong was I.

I find it amazing how people sit in judgement here, most being male 20-somethings still living with their parents and never straying beyond the cosy confines of their keyboard, never mind their bedrooms....

I hope the irony of your own sitting in judgement isn't lost on you..

Pythia

DublinWriter wrote:

They were allowed into St.Patrick’s in the first place and initially given permission to stay. But then the senior dioceses of the Church of Ireland got cold feet and the garda were called.

Got cold feet?
They didn't want a mass suicide to go on in their church.

DadaKopf

Johnee wrote:

I love the sudden faith everyone has in the system. The same people who seem to think the government cant get anything else right are suddenly convinced that McDowell, etc have designed a foolproof system that is both fair and wise.

Not that this faith in the system is in any way a convenient cover for the sort of narrow-minded bigotry certain people used to come out with. We're all very charitable now we have The System. We'd love to let all those genuine refugees from war-torn regions stay as long as they keep to The System

The same system where decision-making tribunals have refused to give reasons for their decisions.

The same system which has insisted on this even when the High Court said it was unconstitutional. An unprecedented defiance of a High Court order.

The same system which many barristers have refused to co-operate with on the basis its simply a rubber-stamping exercise where applicants don't get any sort of hearing.

The same system which had two very high-profile resignations recently when two leading barristers said they couldnt continue to serve on the board as it was unjust.

The same system where lawyers challenged one tribunal member on the basis that he had not made one positive decision in the two years since they started keeping track of his decisions.

The same system which is run by individuals, some (I should stress not all) of whom are rumoured to boast of an evening how they have never let anyone stay in Ireland.

Yeah, thank God for the system.

The same system where a Pashtun Afghani's appeal was so badly translated that the judge couldn't tell, from the evidence before him, that the person he was possibly deporting was a man or a woman.

Two things need to happen. First, the hunger strikers need assurance from the state that they will be given good counsel and therefore encouraged back into the system. Secondly, the public debate needs to shift to look at the conditions that asylum seekers live in in Ireland that drove this group to take this form of action. Asylum seekers can't work and the 'reception centres' where they work are run like open prisons. Articles in the current issues of The Village and Hot Press blow this wide open.

These are people who, like every other human being, are entitled to dignity under Irish, European and international law. They should not be imprisoned in limbo while their asylum applications are 'processed' by a system creaking at the seams and presided over by a, largely, incompetent and uninterested legal staff.

ChityWest

DadaKopf wrote:

The same system where a Pashtun Afghani's appeal was so badly translated that the judge couldn't tell, from the evidence before him, that the person he was possibly deporting was a man or a woman.

Two things need to happen. First, the hunger strikers need assurance from the state that they will be given good counsel and therefore encouraged back into the system. Secondly, the public debate needs to shift to look at the conditions that asylum seekers live in in Ireland that drove this group to take this form of action. Asylum seekers can't work and the 'reception centres' where they work are run like open prisons. Articles in the current issues of The Village and Hot Press blow this wide open.

These are people who, like every other human being, are entitled to dignity under Irish, European and international law. They should not be imprisoned in limbo while their asylum applications are 'processed' by a system creaking at the seams and presided over by a, largely, incompetent and uninterested legal staff.

As far as I know Austrailia imprisons illegal immigrants pending a decision - Ireland does not - to imply that we do or that the 2 scenarios are comparable is a bit of a stretch. If Ireland is such a hellhole for immigrants I doubt we would get so many considering our geographical location.

As regards the shiifting of the public debate - I think the public are capable of discerning from all of this last weeks activity which are the relevant points.

Terry

DublinWriter wrote:

…and I never thought that the Daily Mail would find a readership in Ireland. From reading this thread, how wrong was I.

I find it amazing how people sit in judgement here, most being male 20-somethings still living with their parents and never straying beyond the cosy confines of their keyboard, never mind their bedrooms.

How quick these bitter little amateur judges and sociologists were to latch on to the tabloid-claim that one of the asylum seekers was an ex-Taliban rapist and murderer.

For starters, did anyone even bother sourcing this particular story? No. If it’s in the Sunday World, sure it must be true.

Think about it for a second. a) Since when did Garda National Immigration Bureau start publishing the questionnaires it makes asylum seekers fill out. b) How thick do you have to be to write “I am a rapist and a murderer” in response to the question “Why do you want to seek refuge in Ireland?”.

I heard the same defamatory crap spouted on about the Birmingham Six and the Guilford Four when I worked in London.

They were allowed into St.Patrick’s in the first place and initially given permission to stay. But then the senior dioceses of the Church of Ireland got cold feet and the garda were called.

Cue the inevitable “Ohhhh…they’re breaking laws!” response. But laws and the legal instruments of state are not infallible monolithic structures. If McDowell introduced a ‘walking licence’ into the statue books of Ireland, would you be the first in line to purchase one?

Obviously Ghandi’s lessons of civil disobedience were lost on the privileged posters here who sit in their ivory towers and get tetchy if Café Sol runs out of Latte in the morning.

They used to call West-Brits “more Irish than the Irish themselves”. I’d urge most posters on here to have a good look at yourself now and see if you’re “more English than the English themselves”.

first off, i've never read the daily mail. secondly, i am 30 and own my own house.
laws are in place for the protection of the citizens of any given country. gandhi had good reason for his stance. he was protesting against the occupation of his country by the same people who treated the Irish as scum. the people involved in this hunger strike showed absolutely no respect for the laws of this land or for the sanctity of the cathedral they chose to occupy. they showed no respect for their own lives. they willingly put themselves in danger. while starving yourself for a few days may not kill you, it will certainly have an affect on vital organs such as your kidneys, heart and liver.

as for the arguement regarding illegal Irish in america and other countries. they are breaking the laws of the countries they are in and should be deported. i have a friend who over-stayed his welcome in australia. while there he fathered a child with an australian woman. he is now unable to see his child because he is banned from entering australia for they next few years. he broke the law and is now being punished. the afghans broke the law and they too should be punished.

i have no idea where you are going with that west brit comment.

ferdi

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

Indymedia also conveniently deleted an informative comment by me on their newswire on the sole basis that I have a different opinion to their liberal stance.

Independent Media? Absolute bull****!

Hear, Hear!

DadaKopf

laws are in place for the protection of the citizens of any given country.

Except those laws in Ireland that protect the human rights of all people (human beings) in this jurisdiction. For example, the Health Service Executive's obligation to protect the Afghani children on hunger strike.

the afghans broke the law and they too should be punished.

Which laws did they break, exactly? They're entitled to remain in Ireland until all legal avenues of appeal have been exhausted.

ChityWest

DadaKopf wrote:

Which laws did they break, exactly? They're entitled to remain in Ireland until all legal avenues of appeal have been exhausted.

Occupying a public building and refusing to leave is illegal - though I hear that the church have are refusing to press charges (wrong choice imo).

Threatening suicide enmasse unless your demands are met - may not actually be a crime covered by our statute books - though I am pretty sure we will find out soon enough.

DadaKopf

Occupying a public building and refusing to leave is illegal - though I hear that the church have are refusing to press charges (wrong choice imo).

Threatening suicide enmasse unless your demands are met - may not actually be a crime covered by our statute books - though I am pretty sure we will find out soon enough.

Let me get this straight: they weren't trespassing because church let them stay, and suicide isn't a crime. Hmm. They haven't broken any laws and you haven't a leg to stand on.

ChityWest

Reckon that will come out in the courts - if they get away with all this disruption they have caused or not. Personally I dont think they should. If that equates to not 'having a leg to stand on' in your book then so be it.

And by the way they were trespassing when they refused to leave after the church poilitely and repeatedly asked them to leave - the church's subsequent decision that they didnt want charges pressed doesnt mean that they werent trespassing - only that they MAY not have to face those particular charges. As I have said a few times now - this will come out in the courts one way or another.

AngryAnderson

DublinWriter wrote:

…and I never thought that the Daily Mail would find a readership in Ireland. From reading this thread, how wrong was I.

So what you're saying is that anyone who is relatively happy to obey the laws of the state, and to see them obeyed and enforiced, is automatically a knuckle-dragging, fascist, Daily Mail-reading dummy? Yeah, well done. The battle cry of the liberal idiot :rolleyes:

DublinWriter wrote:

I find it amazing how people sit in judgement here, most being male 20-somethings still living with their parents and never straying beyond the cosy confines of their keyboard, never mind their bedrooms.

...and you're typing this from where? Doing relief work in what part of the globe exactly?

DublinWriter wrote:

How quick these bitter little amateur judges and sociologists were to latch on to the tabloid-claim that one of the asylum seekers was an ex-Taliban rapist and murderer.

While I wouldn't give much credence to the Indo, it doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to fathom that maybe a bunch of men of Afghanistan who seem to have travelled here without their womenfolk or children, hijacked a church and threatened to slit their wrists, hang themselves, throw themselves from balconys, etc. might just have been member of the Taliban. Then again, maybe not. Either way, their criminal actions here completely exhonerate anyone who would assume so.

DublinWriter wrote:

For starters, did anyone even bother sourcing this particular story? No. If it’s in the Sunday World, sure it must be true.

Er, actually it was in the Times, the Indo, etc. etc. and not just the Sunday World. That's not to say that it's true - but you can get off your intellectual high-horse. :rolleyes:

DublinWriter wrote:

I heard the same defamatory crap spouted on about the Birmingham Six and the Guilford Four when I worked in London.

Ah come on now. Will you stop playing the bloody Guilford Four/Bobby Sands/Irish immigrant in the US card. It's a completely different scenario. Whatever about these people, even one or two of them, possibly being associated with the Taliban - people's arguments still stand. It's got more to do with the fact that they tried to hold this country to ransom by threatening their own lives and thought that we'd cave in because of our good nature. We called their bluff on their criminal threats and we won. People who were against this protest have come out glowing whiles those who supported them, particularly those dumb enough to play the 'rrrrrracist' card, have egg on their face.

DublinWriter wrote:

Cue the inevitable “Ohhhh…they’re breaking laws!” response. But laws and the legal instruments of state are not infallible monolithic structures.

So should we allow mass protests of this kind? Like in Belgium say?

DublinWriter wrote:

Obviously Ghandi’s lessons of civil disobedience were lost on the privileged posters here who sit in their ivory towers and get tetchy if Café Sol runs out of Latte in the morning.

Damn. I feel really guilty about drinking my latte this morning now. Maybe I'll go out and commit a crime or somehow disobey the laws and rules of this state to make myself feel better. :rolleyes:

The UNHCR have said that Ireland has one of the fairest asylum systems in the Western world. Live with it and stop being antagonistic.

DublinWriter wrote:

They used to call West-Brits “more Irish than the Irish themselves”. I’d urge most posters on here to have a good look at yourself now and see if you’re “more English than the English themselves”.

I'd say you should have a good look at yourself and ask why you're not making any sense.

Sam Vimes

DadaKopf wrote:

Let me get this straight: they weren't trespassing because church let them stay, and suicide isn't a crime. Hmm. They haven't broken any laws and you haven't a leg to stand on.

as far as i know it actually is a crime but not one people usually go to jail for, for abvious reasons

and they did break the law, simply by applying for asylum in this country after passing through several safe countries to get here

Hobbes

Commander Vimes wrote:

and they did break the law, simply by applying for asylum in this country after passing through several safe countries to get here

and what law is that exactly?

Sam Vimes

Hobbes wrote:

and what law is that exactly?

didn't we have this discussion before? that they can't just window shop for a country? that they have to apply for asylum in the first safe country they get to. perhaps its just the first EU country

ferdi

Hobbes wrote:

and what law is that exactly?

they law of not being stupid dickheads. they did what they did in order to bully, blackmail and intimidate the state.
i'm sorry but i get annoyed when i see people defending these lads just for the sake of it. i sympathise that afghanistan isnt exactly heaven on earth but if these guys have such a big problem with the way we do things here in ireland, maybe they would be better off elsewhere?