Afghan hunger strike in St Patricks.

Archeron

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/05/15/story258764.html

Anyone know or hear anymore about this situation in St Patricks Cathedral? Apparently they are on hunger strike and are refusing to leave the cathedral until their cases are given what they describe as full attention by the Irish authorities. I wouldnt have thought that this is a particularly good way to get the public on your side, but it appears some kind hearted souls are brining blankets, sleeping bags etc.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0515/asylum.html

Minister McDowell doesnt seem to be entertaining it. What do you think of this situation?

FillSpectre

They can't carter to them on any grounds. We have a system and can't allow it to be undermined. It doesn't matter whether they were properly heard or not at this point.

youcancallmeal

It would interesting to know the Relgion of these people, if they are muslims then why would they decided to hold their protest where they have?

Repli

Think Michael McDowell said it best here

“There’s a system there. It’s wrong for me to try to break down our system and it’s wrong for anybody else to try to break down our system,” he said.

“It’s a very sophisticated system and people can’t just suddenly say ‘we’re opting out’.”

What do they think we are gonna do just turn around to them and say ahh ok sure we can't have ya starving to death, asylum granted. ??? Then not only will we have current asylum seekers chancing their arms at this tactic, the country will look like a pushover and we'll be flooded with more of them.

Nightwish

The men, all of whom claim their human rights would be violated if they were returned to Afghanistan, said they chose St Patrick's because it was a large church and a symbol of Ireland. They had picked the cathedral in preference to a mosque because Ireland was a Christian country, they said.

from Todays Irish Independent

wes

As a muslim I find it strange that they would pick a church like this. To be fair I reckon the Irish system is pretty fair when it comes to asylum (hell maybe a bit to fair) and if they don't think there genuine I would side with the authorities on this one.

Having said that the Afganistan is not the safest place on earth, so I can see why these guys are chancing there arms like this.

godfather69er

**** them this is what i was saying on a previous thread kick them out or give em a 1way ticket to russia or somwhere, this is really taking the piss a ****in hunger strike.
if i went on a hunger strike in a mosque in afghanistan, id most liklet be shot or burned and draggen through the street and hung from a bridge.....oh that has happened. as the bloke above said its fair they obviously have no reason to stay here any if this government says it they have no argument at all.

Archeron

wes wrote:

As a muslim I find it strange that they would pick a church like this. To be fair I reckon the Irish system is pretty fair when it comes to asylum (hell maybe a bit to fair) and if they don't think there genuine I would side with the authorities on this one.

Having said that the Afganistan is not the safest place on earth, so I can see why these guys are chancing there arms like this.

Wes, forgive my ignorance on the Muslim faith, but would it be considered disrepectful for non-Muslim people to hole themselves up in a mosque? I believe Christian churches offer sanctuary to all who need it, would the same thing apply in a mosque? thanks.

Hobbes

godfather69er wrote:

**** them this is what i was saying on a previous thread kick them out or give em a 1way ticket to russia or somwhere, this is really taking the piss a ****in hunger strike.
if i went on a hunger strike in a mosque in afghanistan, id most liklet be shot or burned and draggen through the street and hung from a bridge.....oh that has happened. as the bloke above said its fair they obviously have no reason to stay here any if this government says it they have no argument at all.

While I don't agree with thier actions you not think your sort of agreeing with them when your going on that Afganistan is unsafe?

It hasn't changed all that much since 2001 except that the capital city is used for photo-ops to show how wonderful the west is, while the rest is still carved up by warlords who make the Taliban look like sunday school children.

I think taking over the church (breaking the law) should invalidate thier Asylum request. However I believe part of thier demands is wanting to know why they are being refused asylum (as well as asking for it).

Its a bit like Blair and the Afgans who hijacked the plane to get asylum.

ChityWest

Not trying to stir the pot - but does anyone know if there are direct flights from afghanistan to dublin ? Or would they have had to have travelled through safe countries to get here to make their claim to begin with?

godfather69er

Hobbes wrote:

While I don't agree with thier actions you not think your sort of agreeing with them when your going on that Afganistan is unsafe?

It hasn't changed all that much since 2001 except that the capital city is used for photo-ops to show how wonderful the west is, while the rest is still carved up by warlords who make the Taliban look like sunday school children.

I think taking over the church (breaking the law) should invalidate thier Asylum request. However I believe part of thier demands is wanting to know why they are being refused asylum (as well as asking for it).

Its a bit like Blair and the Afgans who hijacked the plane to get asylum.

yes i do agree the place is a ****ing war zone but clearly if the irish government refuses asylum you definatly do not need it. and why didnt the go to pakistan?? a nearby muslim country???that isnt too bad from what i have heard.
and for the fella above they didnt get a plane they probably snuck into a container or somthing from europe, they prob scabbed their way to eu by stowing away on trains and hitching rides

Pythia

ChityWest wrote:

Not trying to stir the pot - but does anyone know if there are direct flights from afghanistan to dublin ? Or would they have had to have travelled through safe countries to get here to make their claim to begin with?

Of course they travelled through safe countries. I'm sure some European ones too.
But Ireland is easier to get into and full of bleeding heart liberals.

wes

Archeron wrote:

Wes, forgive my ignorance on the Muslim faith, but would it be considered disrepectful for non-Muslim people to hole themselves up in a mosque? I believe Christian churches offer sanctuary to all who need it, would the same thing apply in a mosque? thanks.

Actually I don't know, it never came up when I was being taught about religion. Will ask my brother he might know. I personally would have no problem with it.

As for people saying they should go to Pakistan, well it would be safe there (relativly speaking, its a 3rd world country afterall), but its a pretty poor country so maybe they are here for economic reasons.

Degsy

I wonder what would hapen if a bunch of irish non-muslims decided to invade a mosque somewhere....

ChityWest

I think if you did that in a muslim country you would be lucky to get deported.

Mossy Monk

this is crazy. i welcome McDowells stance for once

Degsy

Its bloody do-gooders that are legitimising this kind of carry on,ooh we're all racist..oooh,those poor people will be tortured when they get home lets give them blankets.They should be removed from the church by force and kicked out of the country immediatly before othert hard-luck merchants think its a legitimate form of protest.We're too bloody soft in this country.

mikedragon32

If they have exhausted the legal route to try and stay here then they should never have been afforded the opportunity to get into this situation.

If their application fails, they should be taken to a facility to wait for deportation, not allowed to roam the streets in such a manner.

I would be in favour of a firm stance being taken, lest a precedent be set. It sents out the wrong message to give in to what is, after all, emotional blackmail.

themole

Degsy wrote:

They should be removed from the church by force and kicked out of the country immediatly before othert hard-luck merchants think its a legitimate form of protest..

I would agree with that.

I infact have issue with the fact that they were still here to launch a protest in the first place.

Terry

the brits seem to care about the fate of the afghans. send them across the water.
or over the other direction. we all know the yanks care too.

Hobbes

Pythia wrote:

Of course they travelled through safe countries. I'm sure some European ones too.
But Ireland is easier to get into and full of bleeding heart liberals.

Lets not start this crap again...

If they passed through another EU country before coming here then they would be denied straight off to apply here.

Safe is also a relative word.

New_Departure06

I'm tired of stunts like this. Deport.

Johnee

I love the sudden faith everyone has in the system. The same people who seem to think the government cant get anything else right are suddenly convinced that McDowell, etc have designed a foolproof system that is both fair and wise.

Not that this faith in the system is in any way a convenient cover for the sort of narrow-minded bigotry certain people used to come out with. We're all very charitable now we have The System. We'd love to let all those genuine refugees from war-torn regions stay as long as they keep to The System

The same system where decision-making tribunals have refused to give reasons for their decisions.

The same system which has insisted on this even when the High Court said it was unconstitutional. An unprecedented defiance of a High Court order.

The same system which many barristers have refused to co-operate with on the basis its simply a rubber-stamping exercise where applicants don't get any sort of hearing.

The same system which had two very high-profile resignations recently when two leading barristers said they couldnt continue to serve on the board as it was unjust.

The same system where lawyers challenged one tribunal member on the basis that he had not made one positive decision in the two years since they started keeping track of his decisions.

The same system which is run by individuals, some (I should stress not all) of whom are rumoured to boast of an evening how they have never let anyone stay in Ireland.


Yeah, thank God for the system. I cant understand where these guys, coming from a country where there are still regular firefights between Taliban and US soldiers and whole areas under the control of warlords and militias, ever got the idea their case might not have got the full attention it deserved.


Im sure some of ye would have been right behind our decision to turn away all those Jewish refugees seeking to flee Germany before the Second World War. A proud day for Ireland that, striking a blow against scroungers everywhere.

New_Departure06

Im sure some of ye would have been right behind our decision to turn away all those Jewish refugees seeking to flee Germany before the Second World War. A proud day for Ireland that, striking a blow against scroungers everywhere.

These Afghans are hardly comparable to Jews fleeing the Holocaust.

The same system where decision-making tribunals have refused to give reasons for their decisions.

The same system which has insisted on this even when the High Court said it was unconstitutional. An unprecedented defiance of a High Court order.

The same system which many barristers have refused to co-operate with on the basis its simply a rubber-stamping exercise where applicants don't get any sort of hearing.

The same system which had two very high-profile resignations recently when two leading barristers said they couldnt continue to serve on the board as it was unjust.

The High Court has tended to be far more liberal on asylum-cases than the Supreme Court, as evidenced by the latter ruling in January 2003 that the parents of Irish-born children do not automatically qualify for residency here. The ruling you refer to is in the process of being appealed.

Terry

Johnee wrote:

I love the sudden faith everyone has in the system. The same people who seem to think the government cant get anything else right are suddenly convinced that McDowell, etc have designed a foolproof system that is both fair and wise.

Not that this faith in the system is in any way a convenient cover for the sort of narrow-minded bigotry certain people used to come out with. We're all very charitable now we have The System. We'd love to let all those genuine refugees from war-torn regions stay as long as they keep to The System

The same system where decision-making tribunals have refused to give reasons for their decisions.

The same system which has insisted on this even when the High Court said it was unconstitutional. An unprecedented defiance of a High Court order.

The same system which many barristers have refused to co-operate with on the basis its simply a rubber-stamping exercise where applicants don't get any sort of hearing.

The same system which had two very high-profile resignations recently when two leading barristers said they couldnt continue to serve on the board as it was unjust.

The same system where lawyers challenged one tribunal member on the basis that he had not made one positive decision in the two years since they started keeping track of his decisions.

The same system which is run by individuals, some (I should stress not all) of whom are rumoured to boast of an evening how they have never let anyone stay in Ireland.


Yeah, thank God for the system. I cant understand where these guys, coming from a country where there are still regular firefights between Taliban and US soldiers and whole areas under the control of warlords and militias, ever got the idea their case might not have got the full attention it deserved.


Im sure some of ye would have been right behind our decision to turn away all those Jewish refugees seeking to flee Germany before the Second World War. A proud day for Ireland that, striking a blow against scroungers everywhere.

while i agree with some of your statements, i would like to know why england wasn't good enough for them. i'm far from a blleding heart liberal, but i am not a xenophobe either. frankly, the outcome of this case will not affect me in any way at all and i doubt it will have much of an effect on anyone else here.
it's funny really. we had a thread the other day with some guy asking for advice on how to stay in america without a green card, yet when people come here in the same position, the whole board gets up in arms about it.

as for the jews fleeing germany. Ireland was a completely different country back then. we had just gained independence, were a very poor country and the catholic church had a very big say in what happened. is it any wonder the jews were turned away?

Terry

one more thing. i wonder if they realised it was a church of Ireland cathedral they were going into. i would imagine the pro cathedral would have been a more suitable location for them, being that Ireland is mostly catholic.

SprostonGreen

Degsy wrote:

They should be removed from the church by force and kicked out of the country immediatly before othert hard-luck merchants think its a legitimate form of protest.We're too bloody soft in this country.

This is true. They applied for asylum in this country, got refused but dont accept the decision. Tough titty.

Also, it would be interesting to see how they view the women of this country and how they dress and their career choices. I'm sure that they would sneer.

darkman2

I dont mean this in a cruel way, but that guy representing them saying they will die one by one. McDowell must remain tough on this carry on. Let them die if thats their wish or if nessecary remove them by force. Similar stunts were carried out in Belgium recently were the government gave in to this blackmail when Afgans refused asylum took over churches there too. But they cannot be allowed undermine what is already a VERY soft process. If they did this wouldnt be the last stunt we would be hearing about. We dont owe them anything. Theyve failed their applications.

projectmayhem

they were refused. out you go tyvm.

do we want another kunle?

New_Departure06

This will set a precedent. If we allow them to stay, then everyone who goes on hunger strike in a church will be let stay. The floodgates will have opened. No No No! Mary let McDowell fix this his own way...

darkman2

projectmayhem wrote:

they were refused. out you go tyvm.

do we want another kunle?

I would fully support a very tough signal being sent out here and make an example of these guys. For example - 'Afganistan is dangerous' No sh*it so does that mean anyone from Afghanistan can stay here? Or Nigeria or anyother despot state?:mad:

ferdi

Repli wrote:

Then not only will we have current asylum seekers chancing their arms at this tactic, the country will look like a pushover and we'll be flooded with more of them.

too late.

zuma

With the exception of the West(EU,US,Canada,Australia,NZ) and Japan/S.Korea then YES the rest of the world is a pretty big SH!T hole....but allowing the state to be held to ransom like this should not be tolerated!

Either get them out of there pretty damn soon, let them sweat it out for a couple of days or leave them there and then remove them by force and nurse them back to full health so that they can be returned to a country closer to their home if not Afghanistan itself.

If our system was any softer then we honestly wouldnt have an Asylum system at all as they got every chance to prove their case!

What are the chances that this lot will ever be returned to Afghanistan anywa.....0.0000001% is my guess!!!

SoupyNorman

ferdi wrote:

too late.

FACT!

I think the country would support a forceful removal at this stage on the whole. Why arent they forced to accept their refusal for asylum like so many others were forced to, although others are forced out of the country in the dead of night when Claire Byrne is all snuggled up in her TV3 employee recharging port!

We all know Mc Dowell is cold and heartless so he may as well get it over with! I'm frustrated its getting so much coverage.....its not going to change squat!

AngryAnderson

I'm kind of torn on the issue to be honest. While I don't like seeing the system being held to random with emotional blackmail and the ensuing effect it could have in the future, I also wouldn't want anyone sent back to a Hell hole like Afghanistan.

New_Departure06

This is a copycat to what happened in Belgium where Afghan asylum-seekers occupied churches up and down the land and the govt caved in. McDowell don't make us the new Belgium. A firm hand will be welcomed by a people weary of us being a soft-touch.

SoupyNorman

GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Send all asylum seekers to southern Italy as they have a chronic under-population problem. I recall one town in particular handing out grants to couples if they had a baby and stayed in the town. They want people......we got people.


"there ya go"

ChityWest

bravestarr082 wrote:

We all know Mc Dowell is cold and heartless so he may as well get it over with!

I cant stand mcdowell but I dont think that its cold and heartless to not cave in to every stunt that comes along by people who have been through our process - which itself is lenient as ****.

If he caves in on this one - of if some nonsense compromise is found which doesnt involve their deportation - then it or something similair will happen again and again from this point on. Anytime anyone is refused they will know that the decision doesnt mean anything and that they can just ignore Irish law and can get around it by pulling a stunt like this.

The whole thing is manipulative and cynical - it is emotional blackmail. They have zeroed in on using a hunger strike - possibly thinking that Irish people have a soft spot for hunger strikers due to our recent history. I dont think they are going to get much sympathy this way if anything they are going to provoke the opposite reaction.

To the person earlier who said that Irish people cant say no to these guys on the basis that there are Irish illegally in america - what do you think would happen to an Irish person tried this stunt in america ? "Oh I cant go back to Ireland or I will be shot the troubles dont ya know" they'd be on the next plane home and they would have to pay the fare too.

The_Minister

Of, course those idiots in RAR were out supporting them:rolleyes:


The greens have called for McDowell to meet with them.

Wertz

bravestarr082 wrote:

in the dead of night when Claire Byrne is all snuggled up in her TV3 employee recharging port!

lmao

I've already made my point on this over in Politics:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054931787

Oh they're in a Protestant church? Maybe we should invite Paisley down to sort them out

Ruu_Old

I never liked McDowell but Im with him for this one.

godfather69er

i really wish i was not doing my L.C id be down on st.pats protesting about this,mockery of our country , words cant express how ****ing pissed off i am with these ***** and the do gooders supporting them, i hope their scrawny lil asses are still there on 20th of june coz i will be there with a huuuuuge placard protesting against this ****...aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh fup sake!!!!

Dave!

They get no support from me... Apply like everyone else, if your application fails then sorry, try another country. If McDowell folds for these then we'd be in a crisis, cos every Tahir, Daoud, and Hadi will see that that's all they have to do to get asylum.

I wonder what'll happen though... I mean, McDowell can't fold, so what, are they gonna die? Doubt they'd go that far tbh -- what happens if they refuse to leave? Arrested? Deported?

tintinr35

MMD said "we dont do business that way, we dont conduct business that way" human lives are not business!!!

Dave!

tintin, he has a country to run, and the country is run by laws. if laws aren't enforced, the state will collapse. if he starts taking in everybody who knocks on the door, the country will go to the sh*ts.

rkeane

These Guys should not get ANY support, bully boy tactics should not be rewarded by this charade. No capitulation to these kind of tactics....I hope Michael Mc Dowell gives deportation orders to the rest of the men.

darkman2

I like McDowell, he is mad in these situations:D

dawballz

AngryAnderson wrote:

I'm kind of torn on the issue to be honest. While I don't like seeing the system being held to random with emotional blackmail and the ensuing effect it could have in the future, I also wouldn't want anyone sent back to a Hell hole like Afghanistan.

Oh god! Oh no!

How big is Afghanistan? A Lot bigger than Ireland thats how big.
So let's adopt your idea and let anyone from Afghanistan in.
See how long it takes for the country to sink.

Pure cheek is all this is. Get them the fuk out.

Archeron

On the last word on today FM yesterday, the host suggested that there may be links between these people and the Taliban, which I thought was a bit upfront, to say the least. Imagine my surprise when the leader of the group admitted that yes, some of them had worked for the Taliban when they were in government. But of course, that doesnt mean they agreed with Taliban policies. WTF????? Minister McDowell, it seems the country is united on this one, do not stand for this type of bull sh*t emotional blackmail.
It will be interesting to see how long this drags out for.

Karl Hungus

Ireland is a very soft country on matters such as these, and people who are saying that if the government caves to their demands, that it sends a message, well I think the message was already sent when Kunle was granted his 'Temporary' visa. So I'm not sure it will be dealed with as easily.

Sgt. Politeness

The majority of people in ireland already think the country is far too soft on asylum seekers, illegal or otherwise. This is a chance for the government to send a message to every chancer out there that no, contrary to popular belief, we dont have an open door policy when it comes to asylum seekers.
Let them starve themselves, i give it a week, then they'll realise its not getting them anywhere and they'll do what all the other failed asylum seekers do and get a cash in hand job and dodge immigration until theyre forceably chucked out of the country.