Afghan hunger strike in St Patricks.

juslookin

juslookin wrote:

Ireland has fought to establish their own set of culture and laws. The Irish people have fought long and bloody battles for self determination.

At least 100,000 soldiers died in the English Civil War, and that number of civilians again.

Whatever people think about the asylum seekers, there's sometihng called the EU which means Ms. Flynn is perfectly entitled to be here and express concerns about the systems in place.

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

At least 100,000 soldiers died in the English Civil War, and that number of civilians again.

Whatever people think about the asylum seekers, there's sometihng called the EU which means Ms. Flynn is perfectly entitled to be here and express concerns about the systems in place.

How does this impact on the events of St Patrick's Cathedral?

juslookin

Deleted User wrote:

At least 100,000 soldiers died in the English Civil War, and that number of civilians again.

Whatever people think about the asylum seekers, there's sometihng called the EU which means Ms. Flynn is perfectly entitled to be here and express concerns about the systems in place.

Correct, the English people determined their destiny, as is the right and responsibility of any national.

As "nobody is illegal" and there are "no borders" it appears that some people think that nationals no longer have this right and responsiblility and rather than solve the matter can simply vacate en masse, and whether they are the oppressed or the oppressors should be of no concern to the nationals of their destination.

Ms Flynn is perfectly entitled to be in Ireland and express concerns about the system in place.

What would be a concern is whether it would be appropriate to have British immigration theory models and agendas imposed upon Ireland, by British political activiists, in a "one size fits all" approach, when the circumstances are very different.

The Irish people have the right to determine their destiny and their immigration laws and policies.

The "Afghan" "Hunger Strikers" and possibly British political activists sought to change who determines and dictate the law.

Irish people should decide. Not Mrs Flynn and those with a biased agenda.

hiberno

I've asked this question already elsewhere but I'll ask it again, were these "men" muslim? if so then why didn't they go on hunger strike in the mosque?

They have claimed to be Muslims, yet didn't pray during their "protest". Which is okay as they're taliban and were farther from the actual all embracing message of Islam as Osama and all those scum who murder in the name of Allah.

They didn't do it in the mosque as it's against Islam to starve yourself to death (a little sin called suicide), plus the fact that they'd have been pounded and thrown in the street if they tried. That they messed up and though St. Patrick's was a Catholic church shows more about their ignorance and those, I'd give evens on RAR, who orchestrated it!

Heinrich

hiberno wrote:

They didn't do it in the mosque as it's against Islam to starve yourself to death (a little sin called suicide), plus the fact that they'd have been pounded and thrown in the street if they tried. That they messed up and though St. Patrick's was a Catholic church shows more about their ignorance and those, I'd give evens on RAR, who orchestrated it!

Which shows that they are chancers. Spineless ones at that. The should be sent back to face the music for whatever crimes they have committed.

And the kids?

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

And the kids?

If the "kids" have committed crimes then that is too bad. I do not believe that this gang of chancers are innocent poor refugees. How do you think they got here in the first place? It is an expensive exercise travelling all the way from Afghanistan to Ireland sans papiers!

Get real...

hiberno

Conor, I understand what you're saying about the kids, I taught "asylum" kids in Dublin last year, what's better to do is send them back to their 1st EU country of calling and have them processed there.

What if, it could be the case, that they're former child soldiers with blood on their hands? Do we say, bad adults, or actually wonder about the mentality, overall, in their culture that they'd join in?

juslookin

Deleted User wrote:

And the kids?

You don't know that these are "KIDS" any more than you know if they are "AFGHANS" any more than if you know they were actually committed to their "HUNGER STRIKE/BELL TOWER JUMP/RAZOR SUICIDE/HANGING" threats and more than whatever they say their background was in whereever they say came from.

Asylum rules are different for under 18s, possibly more favourable. Should you be able to claim you are under 18 and nobody can check, it might be just as useful as other parts of your story that nobody can check.

A freind teaches in a London school, and there were a lot of Somalian "children" with rather overdeveloped adams apples. Its great that these children were able to get asylum. Of course we probably be a bit more careful with teenage soldiers who have murdered and raped their contrymen and had to get out when the tide turned.

People know far more about the "game" than you give them credit for. The Irish knew plenty about the "game" to get into the US. Funny how the "anti racists" give certain people credit for less intelligence and initiative than the white Irish. There are thousands of internet cafes in Nigeria these days

takola

Can anyone explain where the information that there were murders and rapists among them cos ive looked and i cant find anything that suggests that???

Dave!

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1617866&issue_id=14075

"Meanwhile, it has been learned that one of the asylum seekers has told the authorities here that he raped and killed when he was a member of the Taliban senior command.

He is understood to have stated on his written application for asylum that he raped several women and was involved in several killings. This has been put forward by the man as a reason why he is fearful of returning toAfghanistan.

A second member of the group has also admitted to having an operational role as a senior commander of the Taliban.

He has admitted to having an "association" with the former Afghan security services, which were involved in the interrogation and torture of many people."


From the Sunday Indo

Nuttzz

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1617866&issue_id=14075

today's sindo

Meanwhile, it has been learned that one of the asylum seekers has told the authorities here that he raped and killed when he was a member of the Taliban senior command.

He is understood to have stated on his written application for asylum that he raped several women and was involved in several killings. This has been put forward by the man as a reason why he is fearful of returning toAfghanistan.

charming....

juslookin

DaveMcG wrote:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1617866&issue_id=14075

He is understood to have stated on his written application for asylum that he raped several women and was involved in several killings. This has been put forward by the man as a reason why he is fearful of returning toAfghanistan.

Nobody ever let a Nazi away with the excuse that "they were only following orders".

But under today's crazy logic, he has a valid excuse.

Can one of the RAR people let him stay in their spare room ?

takola

Ah. Thanks. So when do we find out when they're going home?

The_Minister

Theres a picture on indymedia of ciaran cuffe adressing the protestors outside the cathedral in support of the hungar strikers. One more person not getting my vote.

hiberno

hiberno wrote:

Conor, I understand what you're saying about the kids, I taught "asylum" kids in Dublin last year, what's better to do is send them back to their 1st EU country of calling and have them processed there.

The only thing is that different countries have different standards. Famously Sweden gave a carte blanche to Kosovans when Ireland and the UK routinely sent them back. But that rule about applying in the first country they reach is rigidly applied.

scop

Hilarious looking at what some of these people have done, some people need to remove the rose tinted glasses at some point.

hiberno

Conor, the Kosovan problem is one that has affected different countries differently and living in the region I've heard and seen too many things that would place me on the side of the British policy.

In this case, the taliban criminals, they dodged the 1st country they landed in and tried it on here. If a simple policy of putting illegal arrivals onto the 1st boat/plane to their EU country of departure, it'd force not only the EU, but also the countries turning a blind eye and also the travel companies to start being accountable.

darkman2

They let these guys out on bail. I hope all the churches have their doors shut;)

DrawYourSword

We are all satisfied about what has happened but i wouldnt continue to slate the men, i am all for their right to be here if they are successful.

I was against their actions and the way it was reported. If they now complete the process of asylum seeking and are successful i will now know that at least they did it the correct way.

Below is the email i sent through the Indymedia site.

Re: Afghan hunger strike - your coverage
Dear Sir / Madam

My point of view on the matter i refer to above is not relevant for my query.

I would like to bring into question the way and nature that you report on the particular events.
I feel people would have more respect for your publishing if it was more un-biased and just delivered the facts. By censoring comments and by blowing everyone elses opinion out of the water makes you arguements all that bit weaker.
Also in your photos by targeting people's dress sense and publishing photos of peoples faces with out prior permission. I would take a look at this or at the very least seek legal advice on where you stand before publishing a photo of someones face and labelling it a facist.

This is not a threat., a mere ovservation. I have visisted your site on many an occasion prior to this week and have returned.

Kind regards

AngryAnderson

The best thing about PC thugs is that they're actually just as fascist and racist as antagonistic, violent racists. And they tend to pair themselves up with much more vicious characters as this issue has highlighted.

New_Departure06

Is it true that Rosanna Flynn is English ?

I have read her referred to as "Ms.Flynn" in the press so I assume she is of Irish descent. Normally I consider such people to be Irish because of roots, but if she carries on the way she's going I will have to seriously reconsider this.

AngryAnderson

AngryAnderson wrote:

The best thing about PC thugs is that they're actually just as fascist and racist as antagonistic, violent racists.

Please enlighten us all, what is a 'PC thug'? Is there some conspiracy out there, a 'PC Brigade' with 'PC Thugs' plotting away to smash the system? Are they a group made up of 'liberal pinkos'? Is there some website where people get to learn all these phrases and when to use them, like BNP.co.uk?

Where's the big party to celebrate sending kids back to Afghanistan anyway? At least we have moved away from being Catholic Ireland to a country where you'd be hard pressed to find any Christianity at all. As for the 'liberal PC brigade' routine, don't bother. As a card carrying member of FF, I find the suggestion that I'm some radical leftie merely for having a slight bit of humanitarianism hysterical.

New_Departure06

As a card carrying member of FF, I find the suggestion that I'm some radical leftie merely for having a slight bit of humanitarianism hysterical.

Maybe if FF listened more to public-opinion it would be higher than 31%.

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

Maybe if FF listened more to public-opinion it would be higher than 31%.

You mean tune in to sites like this and the Joe Duffy show?

Saintly

I am glad the situation was resolved, without any loss to life. Fair play to the gardai for a job well done, I honestly think that had some of the well meaning mediators (church reps and the like) stayed out of the whole affair and left the gardai to it, things would have been resolved sooner.

I agreed with most of the points raised in this thread but was disgusted by the tone of some of the posters. IMO, a large amount of people here expressed their views in extremes as ridiculous as the measures taken by the Afghans. Many posts were based on misinformation and the unfounded assumptions made about the process, and the asylum seekers themselves were plain ridiculous. From some of the posts, you'd think that these guys were all bloodthirsty Taliban members who spent their vast fortunes touring through Europe seeking a country with just the right climate and social scene in which to settle, all this having happened of course, after they buried their many victims, abandoned their wives and children and left Afghanistan with a first class ticket!

hiberno wrote:

They have claimed to be Muslims, yet didn't pray during their "protest". Which is okay as they're Taliban and were farther from the actual all embracing message of Islam as Osama and all those scum who murder in the name of Allah.

They didn't do it in the mosque as it's against Islam to starve yourself to death (a little sin called suicide), plus the fact that they'd have been pounded and thrown in the street if they tried. That they messed up and though St. Patrick's was a Catholic church shows more about their ignorance and those, I'd give evens on RAR, who orchestrated it!

This is a prime example of everything I think is wrong about this thread - first off, a minor point, I happened to meet some of these chaps through the course of my work, I witnessed them praying on several occasions. I have no idea if this makes them devout Muslims, don't particularly care either, but there you go. Some of them prayed. Does that make them more credible?!

Secondly, how do you justify calling them all Taliban? The Sunday Indo ran a story naming 2 members of the group as having Taliban links and being involved in significant crime in Afghanistan. (Right beside, what is their regular Sunday fixture, an apology column for yet another fabricated article). It also stands as a matter of public record that one of the men's father was shot and killed by the Taliban. How about him? Where does it say that the members of this group are all Taliban? More to the point, where does it say that the members of this group were all active leaders in the Taliban acts of murder and violence? It's not the kind of organisation where you shut the door in the face of the recruiting officer. If some of these people are murderers, they should be dealt with. Otherwise, don't tar everyone with the same brush, that's just simply ignorant.

Sorry to pick on your post, Hiberno and feel free to correct me if I have misinterpreted your meaning, but I just got fed up or reading post after post of unsubstantiated waffle. Although, media reports have been inaccurate, as in what I saw and what was reported were two very different things.

I am delighted this whole affair has ended. I think that RAR have been exposed as an organisation who are completely incapable of taking anything resembling a fair, logical or reasonable stance on issues regarding asylum seekers. They have lost any legitimacy they may have had. I found myself, for once, agreeing with Michael McDowell and am glad he stood his ground on this issue.

The men themselves were foolish to the extreme, I think it highlighted a complete ignorance of the Irish psyche, in Belgium the tactic worked because of the significant Muslim population, the Afghans were never going to garner that kind of support here - nor should they, their actions were completely unjustified, their actions criminal and their applications should now be processed as normal. I think it sends out a strong message about the Irish position on this issue and the other benefit I hope will follow on is that the process itself might be expedited to eliminate long and costly delays and frustration among applicants. Ultimately, law and democracy won out.

People seem really angry about the 'PC brigade'. I get that, especially when groups like RAR are jumping up and down. That doesn't justify, IMO, the extremes, the levels of abuse and ignorance that has featured on this thread. I am surprised that more people weren't insisting on a balanced, fair discussion.

Saintly.

New_Departure06

Deleted User wrote:

You mean tune in to sites like this and the Joe Duffy show?

Aye.

juslookin

Deleted User wrote:

Please enlighten us all, what is a 'PC thug'? Is there some conspiracy out there, a 'PC Brigade' with 'PC Thugs' plotting away to smash the system? Are they a group made up of 'liberal pinkos'? Is there some website where people get to learn all these phrases and when to use them, like BNP.co.uk?

Where's the big party to celebrate sending kids back to Afghanistan anyway? At least we have moved away from being Catholic Ireland to a country where you'd be hard pressed to find any Christianity at all. As for the 'liberal PC brigade' routine, don't bother. As a card carrying member of FF, I find the suggestion that I'm some radical leftie merely for having a slight bit of humanitarianism hysterical.

Actually there ARE PC THUGS, loosely grouped around the ANL or Anti Nazi Leage, there are quite a number of thuggish PC types who like to have violence, and their mottos are "meet racims with your fists" and "smash their heads of the pavement etc", .

Actually had a workmake who was a vauge ANL "member", and who after a few pints regaled us with talk of how he battered some skins ... not solo of course, its a bit of a pack mentality as the get them on their own or in small groups arriving at tube stations etc, as your average BNP type is a lot easier to spot than your average ANL tyepe. Regardless of whether they deserved it, its a whole can of worms

When you scratch the histories of a surprising element of the PC thugs, you find that in a previous incarnation they were actually NF or BNP, and they are now fighting agaisnt the people they once were. Its almost as if there there seems to be an element where violence against there ex mates is cathartic and repentant for the previous stuff they got up to.

I find it disturbing that the indymedia site is promoting this talk about anyone who counter protested at the Cathedral. They may well have been locals pissed off with what was going on, or people pissed off with the attempt to overide the law of the land, but that does not make them the sort of "BNP" or "facists" or whatever that they love to get it on with, except to the PC thugs who believe all that stuff.

Red Action were an infamous group: http://libcom.org/library/red-action-ira-london-bombs-independent

Nobody is celebrating sendign the kids back to whereever. but there might certainly be celebration that the laws of the land forged over much time and debate and democracy were upheld rather than replaced with anarchy thought up on the spur of the moment

The funny thing is that after shaking off the shackles of the Catholic Church, some PC lefty types don't realise the danger to their new secular separate religion/politics society of encouraging fostering and making concessions to Islam on some "anti -racist" basis, whle not realising what they are really letting themselves in for ! its not "racist" to oppose an optional belief system

ChityWest

juslookin wrote:

Actually there ARE PC THUGS, loosely grouped around the ANL or Anti Nazi Leage, there are quite a number of thuggish PC types who like to have violence, and their mottos are "meet racims with your fists" and "smash their heads of the pavement etc", .

I have to say I have seen similair (though not quite as extreme) comments on the indymedia website throughout the last week. Funnily enough these werent among the dissenting comments which were censored. They have posted pictures of people who were not in agreement with them under the banner 'kunckle dragging fascist' and so on.

If you are actually looking for evidence of PC thuggery I would recommend a read through of that site in the threads 'Afghan Hunger strikers day x-7', 'Where were the left' and also take a look in the 'latest comments' part on the top left of their homepage.

the_syco

DaveMcG wrote:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1617866&issue_id=14075

"Meanwhile, it has been learned that one of the asylum seekers has told the authorities here that he raped and killed when he was a member of the Taliban senior command.

He is understood to have stated on his written application for asylum that he raped several women and was involved in several killings.

Question: what would stop him continuing it here?

=-=

The "first country" arguement never works, as they "forget" or "don't know" the 1st country they arrived into, thus we can't deport them.

Deleted User wrote:

Please enlighten us all, what is a 'PC thug'? Is there some conspiracy out there, a 'PC Brigade' with 'PC Thugs' plotting away to smash the system?

In my view, its scum who take the cover of "fighting the right fight", but are scum. Who fight, cause destruction, but claim they are the "good guys", and if you say that they are scum, they'll call you "the system", "the man", "right-wing scum".

Think of the right-wing scum, and then picture them holding the banner of the left wing, and claiming they do what they do to further justice. As someone once said, "go far enough left, and you'll find the right".

You find scum on both sides, it just seems scum on the left are harder to touch, as if you do so, your a "bully", but if you to it to the right, your "defending" some cause.