travellers in flash cars??

WhiteWashMan

zenith wrote:

Right, for good or ill, this thread has been referred to Humanities.

Humanities was created for the purpose of having rational, thoughtful, calm debate about issues. It was created as an alternative to After Hours. A place for intellectual discourse.

Bannings are frequent, and permanent. It's a very different place to where it's come from. Follow the rules above, or get the hell out of Dodge.

and its like a huge weight has been taken from my shoulders........

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

tell you what go over here and start a thread with an anecdote about, oh i dont know, pick any race you like.

If that link is supposed to imply that I'm a racist then you're wrong.
I work and drink happily with a wide range of nationalities in my company.
They're civilised people, contributing to society by working and obeying the law.

Ajnag

Ummm, Just to comment on the origional primise of this thread, Re: Travelers and the cars they drive.

An observation of mine, is that until before the celtic tiger economy, travellers were driving transits and hi-aces for the most part. Nobody noted or complained.

And yet, Post boom.... Travellers are driving better cars along with the rest of the population...... SHOCK HORROR :eek:
It seems that money has filtered though society during economic growth. Gee what were the odd's of that? :rolleyes:

And where has this money come from?
From the settled community for the most part who trade with travellers. Do's the settled community discriminate wether or not these goods are stolen or illegal?
Do they hell!

So on one hand we're going to have people rant on and on and on,
and who will then go out and have no complaints what so ever when they get a bargain - legal or not.

Go figure....

billy the squid

OMcGovern wrote:

If that link is supposed to imply that I'm a racist then you're wrong.
I work and drink happily with a wide range of nationalities in my company.
They're civilised people, contributing to society by working and obeying the law.

nope not at all. i am making the point that if you were to start a thread on the internet about any minority, it is inevitable that you will get replies with similar stories to your own. again i will say that just because you get 5,10 or 20 responses on a thread on the internet, does not prove that the majority of that minority are evil.

just to add. I seen a figure of 20 percent of all travellers are involved in crime. heres something that I came accross

Irish people who use the internet are working with software right, 38 percent of them are using illegal software
http://www.enn.ie/news.html?code=9607972

now where is the outcry about that. does this make any irish person with a computer a criminal? by the way.

I will ask. how many of you antis have not one single illegal file on your pc.

"let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone"

Zombrex

Sorry, I am not really following the "OH MY GOD!!" aspect of this thread .. who ever said Travellers were poor? I would imagine some of them are, but a lot aren't. Is this wrong?

Are they supposed to be all poor because they live in a caravan? I think people are not really understanding why they live in a caravan. It isn't because they cannot afford a house.

Also being poor isn't why they don't pay tax. Poor settled people pay tax. The reason a lot of travellers get out of paying tax is because they have no fixed address and it is nearly impossible to track them down to make them. A lot of clever settled self employed people get out of paying tax this way too, by declaring a tiny amount of what they make to a fixed address.

The self-employed millionaries declaring €25,000 a year income, and then get things like the college grant for their kids, would piss me off a lot more travellers driving around in new cars.

Sam Vimes

billy the squid wrote:

Asside from making comments intended to belittle those that disagree with you, oh and posting offensive jokes, have you anything to contribute?

i have quite a lot to contribute as you would see if you looked at my many posts that don't include jokes. Also, it's spelled aside. I normally don't correct spelling but you annoyed me

Sam Vimes

Ajnag wrote:

And yet, Post boom.... Travellers are driving better cars along with the rest of the population...... SHOCK HORROR :eek:
It seems that money has filtered though society during economic growth. Gee what were the odd's of that? :rolleyes:

driving better cars along with the rest of the population? the last time i looked out my window i saw a ford fiesta, not a bmw

Hobbes

Wicknight wrote:

The reason a lot of travellers get out of paying tax is because they have no fixed address and it is nearly impossible to track them down to make them. A lot of clever settled self employed people get out of paying tax this way too, by declaring a tiny amount of what they make to a fixed address.

I am pretty sure I said this exact same thing to you earlier.

1. Travellers pay taxes just like everyone else. There are probably some that don't just like there are probably some settled people who don't pay taxes.
2. halting sites = fixed abode. Not to mention not all travellers live in halting sites.
3. less then 1% actually move around. an even lower figure are illegally halting.

Also as pointed out in the traveller myths link they are also means tested when claiming for money off the government just like everyone else.

I'd also like to add that recently it was shown that the top millionaries in Ireland were shown not to pay any taxes whatsoever and only up until recently all musicians didn't have to pay taxes either.

Hobbes

Commander Vimes wrote:

driving better cars along with the rest of the population? the last time i looked out my window i saw a ford fiesta, not a bmw

You know someone mentioned earlier that they knew a traveller who owned a business. You would assume he would have a good car no?

Litcagral

Hobbes wrote:

I am pretty sure I said this exact same thing to you earlier.

1. Travellers pay taxes just like everyone else. There are probably some that don't just like there are probably some settled people who don't pay taxes.
2. halting sites = fixed abode. Not to mention not all travellers live in halting sites.
3. less then 1% actually move around. an even lower figure are illegally halting.

Also as pointed out in the traveller myths link they are also means tested when claiming for money off the government just like everyone else.

I'd also like to add that recently it was shown that the top millionaries in Ireland were shown not to pay any taxes whatsoever and only up until recently all musicians didn't have to pay taxes either.

I regularly see the postman entering the sites near me - usually a good indication that someone has an address.

billy the squid

Commander Vimes wrote:

driving better cars along with the rest of the population? the last time i looked out my window i saw a ford fiesta, not a bmw

was the same car outside your house before the celtic tiger though. are you denying the assertion that irish people in general are buying better cars now than they were, say, ten years ago?

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

nope not at all. i am making the point that if you were to start a thread on the internet about any minority, it is inevitable that you will get replies with similar stories to your own.

Irish people who use the internet are working with software right, 38 percent of them are using illegal software
http://www.enn.ie/news.html?code=9607972

I disagree.
I can't think of another minority group which has such a history and reputation for violence and aggression in this country. (excluding drug related crime)

If someone started a thread on any arbitrary minority, they probably would get plenty of people to agree with them.... but I doubt they'ld get 5 personal stories about being attacked by that minority.

billy the squid wrote:

"let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone"

LOL
Especially after Gurramok's reply #268, about being stoned by travellers in the Rathoat road, Finglas. You were either trying to be funny or just scored an "own goal" in your argument

I honestly don't know how you can compare "white collar crime", like copyright infringement / software piracy, with violence.

billy the squid

OMcGovern wrote:

I disagree.
I can't think of another minority group which has such a history and reputation for violence and aggression in this country. (excluding drug related crime)

If someone started a thread on any arbitrary minority, they probably would get plenty of people to agree with them.... but I doubt they'ld get 5 personal stories about being attacked by that minority.



LOL
Especially after Gurramok's reply #268, about being stoned by travellers in the Rathoat road, Finglas. You were either trying to be funny or just scored an "own goal" in your argument

I honestly don't know how you can compare "white collar crime", like copyright infringement / software piracy, with violence.

crime is crime. and the "stone" reference is from the bible and not intended to relate to any other poster. I could have said "people in glasshouses shouldnt throw stones" but you would have come to the same conclusion.

the idea of people on the internet 38 percent of them are committing crime, complaining about a 20 percent crime rate in the travelling community is laughable.

Hobbes

OMcGovern wrote:

I disagree.
I can't think of another minority group which has such a history and reputation for violence and aggression in this country.

Again check the travellers myths link.
http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/traveller-myths.pdf

Traveller Myths wrote:

Travellers are often blamed for crime and anti-social behaviour. This may occur even when it emerges subsequently that others were responsible. As in all communities there will be some Travellers who engage in crime, but, to associate all Travellers with crime, or to blame Travellers for crime without proof, is offensive and contributes to the exclusion of Travellers.
...
Travellers are often associated with violent behaviour. However, there is no evidence that violence of any type is more prevalent among any one ethnic group than another. This label is often used to paint Travellers as brutish and as a justification for racism and discrimination which excludes Travellers.

but I doubt they'ld get 5 personal stories about being attacked by that minority.

Of course you would. I have been mugged a total of 3 times in my lifetime. All on the northside. Does that mean the majority of northsiders are criminal?

I can even give you easily numerous stories from Darndale of criminals/violence. However I would say from my experiences there that the vast majority in Darndale are not criminal or violent.

So as said a handful of stories doesn't prove a majority.

Dave!

micosavo wrote:

we are being brow beaten by all these anti-racist groups that spend all day saying that the Knackers (and lets not beat around the bush here, they are knackers, I liked to see one respond to this thread!) are being given a bad rep by the minority of the travellers. They are all bad.

They have never "subscribed" to our society. They never pay taxes, insurance, nothing, nothing, nothing. Yet, they get full social welfare payments and all politicians and gardai are afraid to say anything because they are afraid of being labelled racists.

Our society has become such that we cannot complain anymore, we cannot say that something is wrong without fear of retribution. I've worked for half my life (15 years). I've paid my share of my wages into the government coffers so if I get my teeth fixed on the PRSI or it goes to help the aged or people who are less well off, all the better.

But I really begrudge any of my money going to people who have only ever contributed to the black economy.

Local joe soap on the ground gets find up to €1,500 for dog poop and rubbish and such. Higher for companies. But all around I see the local councils spending our money providing skips for them and cleaning up after "them" after they leave a particular side of a road in a total mess. One such place was Dun Láoghaire marina. My car gets clamped if i don't pay €1 for hr. They have their caravans all over the place, with burnt out cars and mounds of rubbish

It makes my blood boil. We live in a democracy. I have a right to say my piece. They are a vast minority (and not bloody ethnic!). They are inforcing their will on the majority. I contribute to this country, they do not. We all know what they are. We all have our own stories. I will not entertain peoples excuses about how bad lives they have, how they live in a vicious circle. B******ox! I drive passed the "halting" sites with a car that is always older than the passats, hiaces and whatnot parked outside.

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. They should all be put on a boat, the boat should be sailed out to the middle of the atlantic and sunk.

Sorry, thats my rant over, a bit harsh to be honest.

But I leave you all with one thought if you managed to make it through my diatribe...

If the boat "Final Solution" did occur; What contribution to our society would we be missing?..........would anybody miss them?

My thoughts exactly.

I read up to about post #170, and I'm not bothered to read through the rest of the thread... I just dislike travellers. Plain and simple! They don't contribute to society, they wreck everywhere they go, and they cause trouble all the time. Now, someone is going to to ask for statistics and interviews and government reports to back this up, but I'm afraid you've got me there! I can't provide the literature to back it up -- it's just a nationally (universally?) accepted fact. There is a minority of good people in the travelling community, but I'm afraid unless they get out of it they'll end up like the rest of them.

It f*cking p!sses me off when people like Hobbes and billy the squid come into threads defending them -- oh they're lovely people, you're generalising, you're a racist, where's your proof? link? blehblehblehblehbleh..... You all know that they're no good, you're just defending them to make yourself feel better or to feel like a good person. If you don't realise it, or can't accept it, then you're living in a dream world, or you've got your head in the sand. Or you're playing devil's advocate.

I'm happy to see that you're the minority, though (at least going by this thread and my family/friends). Most people can accept that, yes, there is some nice travellers, but the majority are criminals or soon-to-be criminals and leeches. You're entitled to your opinion but your opinion and readiness to call everyone racists is what keeps the problem alive. If there wasn't f*cking stupid groups doing this, then the government and the Gardaí could tackle the problem of crime, drugs, litter, violence, fraud, tax evasion, etc., that exists in the travelling community, and stop treating them like they're a poor misunderstood minority. It's f*cking ridiculous, I can't stand you people...

Anyway, that's my 2 cents, I'll not get into the whole "can you provide written evidence that this is indeed the case?" crap with Hobbes cos it goes through my head :rolleyes:

I was actually thinking a few minutes ago, hmmm, why is it that there's no evidence about the level of crime among travellers, on the internet? Because they rarely get arrested for it, so the only way to find out the truth is to go into the camp and ask a load of them do they commit crimes regularly -- and I really don't think that they'd be too eager to divulge that information to you if it's going to show them in a bad light. If you went in and ask them do they experience much prejudice, do you find it difficult to get a medical card or a job, then methinks you'd be more likely to get an answer.

I'm done... Hopefully at some stage in the future, though, somebody will get the facts out of them and shut these PC morons up.

Hobbes

DaveMcG wrote:

Now, someone is going to to ask for statistics and interviews and government reports to back this up, but I'm afraid you've got me there! I can't provide the literature to back it up

I was going to suggest you read the charter until...

I'm done... Hopefully at some stage in the future, though, somebody will get the facts out of them and shut these PC morons up.

Dave!

Hobbes wrote:

I was going to suggest you read the charter until...

What?

Litcagral

DaveMcG wrote:

What?

Thought you were done?

Hobbes

DaveMcG wrote:

What?

Well its not your fault for not reading all the way through the thread before posting, but threads in Humanities and rules are a bit stricter here..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50615635&postcount=271

Btw, everything you spouted. Already been covered.

billy the squid

I read up to about post #170, and I'm not bothered to read through the rest of the thread... I just dislike travellers. Plain and simple! They don't contribute to society, they wreck everywhere they go, and they cause trouble all the time. Now, someone is going to to ask for statistics and interviews and government reports to back this up, but I'm afraid you've got me there! I can't provide the literature to back it up -- it's just a nationally (universally?) accepted fact.

The very existance of people or groups that disagree with this viewpoint is evidence that this "fact" as you would like to call it, is not in fact universally accepted.

accepted fact. There is a minority of good people in the travelling community, but I'm afraid unless they get out of it they'll end up like the rest of them.

are these more "universally accepted facts?" and what makes you think that the ones who are not committing crime will do so eventually. is it the fact that they are travellers which indicates that they will commit crime at some stage?

It f*cking p!sses me off when people like Hobbes and billy the squid come into threads defending them -- oh they're lovely people, you're generalising, you're a racist,

Here is a wake up call. Not everyone on the internet is going to agree with you. If you dont like it then there is a button on your computer that says "power." press it.

As for accusations of racism. I don't think I have called anyone in the anti-traveller camp "racist." Biggoted or sectarian maybe, but when words like "pikey" are used then one is just stating facts. people who are not biggotted or sectarian do not use words like that.

where's your proof? link? blehblehblehblehbleh..... You all know that they're no good, you're just defending them to make yourself feel better or to feel like a good person. If you don't realise it, or can't accept it, then you're living in a dream world, or you've got your head in the sand. Or you're playing devil's advocate.

If one was to post any old ****e on the internet and claim it to be fact, then it would make the whole idea of these forums worthless. I see forums like this as an opportunity to learn stuff that I did not know before. If someone says that 99 percent of all travellers are criminal, am I supposed to believe them based on their personal opinion? no offence, you could be lying through your teeth for all I know. I am not saying you are, but I don't know you and therefore I have no reason to trust your statements as gospel.

I'm happy to see that you're the minority, though (at least going by this thread and my family/friends). Most people can accept that, yes, there is some nice travellers, but the majority are criminals or soon-to-be criminals and leeches. You're entitled to your opinion but your opinion and readiness to call everyone racists is what keeps the problem alive.

I would disagree with this. It is my opinion that what is keeping animosity between the settled and travelling community alive is the fact that more people deem it acceptable to discriminate against travellers, than say homosexuals, or black people. Travellers are not another race, therefore those who begrudge them don't see themselves as being racist. Travellers are not a different nationality, so those who begrudge them do not see themselves as ethnicly discriminating against them.

you're just defending them to make yourself feel better or to feel like a good person. If you don't realise it, or can't accept it, then you're living in a dream world, or you've got your head in the sand. Or you're playing devil's advocate.

look good to who exactly? you still cannot accept the fact that there are going to be people on this internet that are going to have a different viewpoint to you. Your viewpoint is different to mine, and lots of others on this thread, yet I have not called anyone an idiot, or told jokes about them that might offend them.

For the record, I come from a traveller family, and I find your claim that i am living in a dream world when it comes to mentioning law-abiding travellers somewhat insulting.

And no I don't have a BMW. but those travellers that I know that do, worked ****ing hard for years to buy them.

If there wasn't f*cking stupid groups doing this, then the government and the Gardaí could tackle the problem of crime, drugs, litter, violence, fraud, tax evasion, etc., that exists in the travelling community, and stop treating them like they're a poor misunderstood minority. It's f*cking ridiculous, I can't stand you people...

Again, just because someone disagrees with your viewpoint, or has a different perspective on it, does NOT make them stupid.

I'm done... Hopefully at some stage in the future, though, somebody will get the facts out of them and shut these PC morons up.

is this more namecalling?

Dave!

Hobbes wrote:

Well its not your fault for not reading all the way through the thread before posting, but threads in Humanities and rules are a bit stricter here..

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50615635&postcount=271

I see... I've steered clear of derogatory terms for that purpose, dunno what the mods will say about the content of my post, just my opinion though.

Now that I think of it, I'd say you've actually reported my post, haven't you? lol

Anyway, I'm sure billy the squid's political incorrectness detector is beeping out of control, so if you haven't, you can probably save yourself the click.

Hobbes wrote:

Btw, everything you spouted. Already been covered.

Yeah I know... cos I quoted a post of someone with the same opinion... Thankfully it's a more popular view than your own naive one.

Hobbes

DaveMcG wrote:

I see... I've steered clear of derogatory terms for that purpose,

"morons" :rolleyes:

dunno what the mods will say about the content of my post, just my opinion though.

Now that I think of it, I'd say you've actually reported my post, haven't you? lol

They will probably ban you if I was to take a guess and no I haven't reported your post. I am under the general feeling that everyone should be given a second chance.

If you can argue your point beyond conjecture and personal opinion I'll even read it.

I'm sure billy the squid's political incorrectness detector

You just don't give up with the personal attacks.

Thankfully it's a more popular view than your own naive one.

Not sure you read the whole thread (doubtful) but my view is this. Yes there are criminal elements in the traveller community, I am sure there are certainly others that will fit everyones ancedotes to date. However where I have contention is the leap from that to total generalisation for the countries community of travellers.

I mean even the term "majority X" (where X = whatever negative association they are inferring) no anti has yet to back up with anything that can be verified. Yet there are numerous reports by various legitimate bodies that can prove otherwise.

Hobbes

With regards for further information regarding the "models" comment. I've asked about it.

This is some years back. Two sisters (one has children now as far as she knows) and both were registered with a modelling agency and had done hair salon shows and some catalog work. Beyond that she didn't give me names and I personally don't see a reason to post personal names on the forums.

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

crime is crime.
the idea of people on the internet 38 percent of them are committing crime, complaining about a 20 percent crime rate in the travelling community is laughable.

"Crime is crime" ?
That means absolutely nothing..... it's verbal diarhorrea.
It's the sort of cliche that's just reguritated automatically without a thought in your head.

So someone with eg. an MP3 of Aerosmith, is not allowed ( if you had your own way ), to comment on violent crime ?

Please reread this article to get a proper sense of perspective.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/06/18/story679888088.asp

Hobbes wrote:

Again check the travellers myths link.
http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/traveller-myths.pdf

The people who wrote that document were told, constrained even, to paint a good picture of travellers. Hardly a piece of unbiased documentation.

Hobbes

OMcGovern wrote:

So someone with eg. an MP3 of Aerosmith, is not allowed ( if you had your own way ), to comment on violent crime ?

You could probably link the two (well if you believe the RIAA). As some level of pirate stuff is traced back to criminal gangs/terrorist organisations.

The people who wrote that document were told, constrained even, to paint a good picture of travellers. Hardly a piece of unbiased documentation.

And where pray tell did you find this out? Details who they are here..
http://www.nccri.ie/nccri-about.html

It points out common myths. Those with a deep rooted hatred for travellers are hardly going to be swayed by such a document but it does point out the BS that goes on for those who are more opened minded at finding out more information.

Incidently that site also documents racist based attacks.
http://www.nccri.ie/incidents-reports.html

People go on about how Travellers are criminals, etc but nothing is mentioned of the reverse. Some of the reported incidents are quite an eye opener. Like a traveller family have a fire set under thier car by settled people.

StupidLikeAFox

It shows attacks on travellers by settled people, but not the ones by travellers on settled people.

OMcGovern has a point when he says its a slightly biased.

One thing i wouldnt agree with in the leaflet is that that travellers are no more or less agressive than any other race. Things like the King of the Travellers, the prize fights, what i have seen with my own eyes, heard from friends and so on, justify my opinion on this (to me at least)

In my opinion there are assholes everywhere, racists, travellers, blacks, whites. I would have to say most travellers i have met were assholes. Love it or hate it, thats just my experience

Hobbes

ColHol wrote:

It shows attacks on travellers by settled people, but not the ones by travellers on settled people.

OMcGovern has a point when he says its a slightly biased.

No, it only lists those that have made reports. Settled people are more then welcome to make such reports which would then be documented.

Things like the King of the Travellers, the prize fights, what i have seen with my own eyes, heard from friends and so on, justify my opinion on this (to me at least)

Ahh ok so your telling me non-travellers don't have those kinds of fights? I find that a wee bit hard to believe.

I would have to say most travellers i have met were assholes. Love it or hate it, thats just my experience

Thats fine.

OMcGovern

Hobbes wrote:

You could probably link the two (well if you believe the RIAA). As some level of pirate stuff is traced back to criminal gangs/terrorist organisations.

If I were to adopt your attitude, I'd disect every single line of your response, and ask you for formal weblinks on your opinions.

So how on earth can you "probably" link the two ?

Or, as I firmly suspect, are you simply believing the adverts on before the films in the cinema/DVD's ?

Both yourself and Billy_the_squid are straining logic beyond breaking point, to equate destroying a 5 years old girls life, with copying a DVD.

And for your information, and education, there's a difference between organised software/copyright piracy, and personal software piracy.

I think I've pretty much destroyed that ridiculous "crime is crime" argument.

amp

DaveMcG wrote:

My thoughts exactly.

I read up to about post #170, and I'm not bothered to read through the rest of the thread... I just dislike travellers. Plain and simple! They don't contribute to society, they wreck everywhere they go, and they cause trouble all the time. Now, someone is going to to ask for statistics and interviews and government reports to back this up, but I'm afraid you've got me there! I can't provide the literature to back it up -- it's just a nationally (universally?) accepted fact.

Except here. Here it's either provide facts or keep your stereotypes fúcking out of here. If you think I'm kidding then do a search on the word "traveller" in this thread and have a look at my record.

Hobbes

OMcGovern wrote:

Or, as I firmly suspect, are you simply believing the adverts on before the films in the cinema/DVD's ?

http://www.piracyisacrime.com/bigissue/terrorists.php

5 second google. As I said it is the RIAA adverts that declare this although that site appears to have more information.

Both yourself and Billy_the_squid are straining logic beyond breaking point, to equate destroying a 5 years old girls life, with copying a DVD.

It is a bit of stretch to equate one incident to the whole population of a group too. I also posted you the DPP response earlier in regards to that issue. It was not traveller related and more a problem with how our criminal system works.