Sinn fein- the new nazi party?

bus77

Perhaps the original anti treaty people/founders of Sinn Fien were a mixture of Faciats and Communists.
The complete ignoring of the need to meet the British half way and the subsequent setting up of Sinn Fein with its policys of ingorance of the current Irish State (and Socilism) does sugest a sort of "my way or the highway" almost Faciat attitude of it's founding members.

Any cause where the goal is a new state will attract/contain members who want to do things "their way". Maybe you could look at the anti treaty people/founders of Sinn Fein and say that was them?

But Republican partys where the enemy is not percived to be the Goverment Itself but a Foreign power useually form In a differnt way to others. Where Communist and Facist useually gather together a group of like minded individuals where the partys sole purpose is to take power.

In Irish Republicanism the party is useually seen as not only a group ready to take power but also "another tool in the toolbox" for the cause, a face sitting at a table ready to negotiate. Therefore people dont nessisarily get chosen for their polictical outlook but instead get chosen for their precived "abilty" to do the job.

I suspect the original founders of Sinn Fein were a mixture of Communist and almost Facist types who held out hope of one day returning to take power, but after so many years the party has (I hope) been repopulated with a "mixed bag" once again.

Sleepy

Originally posted by Hagar
Dev founded Fianna Fáil not Sinn Féin.

No sh|t sherlock, but he may as well have because his party have opened the door to the terrorists.

Originally posted by monument
How SF are 'doing it', why comments from Michael McDowell (like 'Sleepy' here) are helping them, and more...

So, FF are incompetent, SF are good tacticians and know how to capitalise on the governments failings, what's new in that?

By and large, the governments handling of the economy wasn't all that bad. It was what they did with their tax revenues (and their refusal to tax the rich) that made a balls of things. Just because Fianna Fail are corrupt and incompetent, doesn't make it right to allow murderers take seats in government. Nor does it make it right to throw away economic success.

Until a new political party is created or Fianna Gael learn how to become effective, SF will continue to poll well and this country will sink itself further into ruin under Fianna Fail as we lose all credibility on the world stage by electing killers.

monument

Originally posted by bus77
Perhaps the original anti treaty people/founders of Sinn Fien were a mixture of Faciats and Communists.
The complete ignoring of the need to meet the British half way and the subsequent setting up of Sinn Fein with its policys of ingorance of the current Irish State (and Socilism) does sugest a sort of "my way or the highway" almost Faciat attitude of it's founding members.

Perhaps they did not like the idea of letting the people in the north down?

sceptre

Originally posted by bus77
Perhaps the original anti treaty people/founders of Sinn Fien

The guy generally recognised as the "founder" of Sinn Fein (Arthur Griffith) was pro-Treaty.

Actually prior to that he was pro-dual monarchy along the lines of Austria-Hungary - it was key to his early writings (including The Resurrection of Hungary) that the Act of Union was illegal and the constitutional documents of 1782 were still in place.

Sleepy

Originally posted by monument
Perhaps they did not like the idea of letting the people in the north down?

Accept reality. There was/is/never will be an ideal solution to the northern problem. A 32 county Ireland is an unattainable pipe dream as even if the Irish government were stupid enough to take it off the Brits' hands we couldn't afford to run it. What part of this don't Sinn Fein understand?

bus77

Originally posted by monument
Perhaps they did not like the idea of letting the people in the north down?

Them too, Im not sugesting It didnt contain members that had those views. But I think the people writing the original polocies were party made up of disafected Communist types from down here.

bus77

Originally posted by Sleepy
Accept reality. There was/is/never will be an ideal solution to the northern problem. A 32 county Ireland is an unattainable pipe dream as even if the Irish government were stupid enough to take it off the Brits' hands we couldn't afford to run it. What part of this don't Sinn Fein understand?

You could say that making the north a self governed semi indepandant state would be/is a solution. What part of this do the Unionts not understand?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
My own position is that since they in practice identify themselves as "leftie," this practical identification informs my assessment of the party and my reading of its discussion documents. I'm a little suspicious of why one would want to erase the specificity of any party who "identifies" with either the "left" or the "right": in the case of SF, they have identified with socialist/ marxist politics for quite a while now.

Most communist States refer (or referred) to themselves as People’s Democratic Republics. It takes little examination of such States to realise that they can call themselves democratic if they wish, but that hardly makes it true. The same would apply to any political organisation, and so SF can call themselves Socialist, Marxist or Thatcherite if it takes their fancy, but that hardly makes it true either.

Even if a label were broadly accurate there’s a wide range of variation even between different groups that would apparently share the same philosophy - Trotskyites would be radically different to Stalinists or Social Democrats. The Italian PNF would have differed greatly from that of Germany’s Nazi party or even Chile’s quasi-Fascist system under Pinochet. Indeed, no two variations of any political ideology will actually match, and many will go further borrow aspects of other, often opposed, ideologies as they see fit.

So when we look at an organisation like SF, we should examine not if there is an exact fit or even what it claims to be, but where it shares most similarities - what it is de facto rather than de jure. Broadly speaking this would probably place SF as a ‘flavour’ or variation of Fascism, if you will, as it is closest to that ideological family than any other, regardless of what labels it chooses to market itself with.

Sleepy

Originally posted by bus77
You could say that making the north a self governed semi indepandant state would be/is a solution. What part of this do the Unionts not understand?

I would agree with you entirely on this point. Unfortunately, large sections of the Unionist community are just as stubborn about giving up violence as the same sections of the Republican community. My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding Northern Ireland as an independant state.

ecksor

Ahh, and here was me thinking that you didn't have a realistic alternative solution :rolleyes:

earwicker

Originally posted by Sleepy
I would agree with you entirely on this point. Unfortunately, large sections of the Unionist community are just as stubborn about giving up violence as the same sections of the Republican community. My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding Northern Ireland as an independant state.

Oh Jaysus.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sleepy
My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding Northern Ireland as an independant state.

I wager five qualloons on the human with the gold uniform...

earwicker

Originally posted by The Corinthian
So when we look at an organisation like SF, we should examine not if there is an exact fit or even what it claims to be, but where it shares most similarities - what it is de facto rather than de jure. Broadly speaking this would probably place SF as a ‘flavour’ or variation of Fascism, if you will, as it is closest to that ideological family than any other, regardless of what labels it chooses to market itself with.

Fair enough. As I said earlier, we'll agree to disagree. I've explained that the reason I read them as broadly "leftie" has to do with their stated practical marxist/ socialist principles. To do otherwise seems to me to be too abstract. It seems to me that an examination of actual policy points is the only useful way to discuss a political party.

But one question that's niggling me is what are the reasons for insisting they are fascist?

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Broadly speaking this would probably place SF as a ‘flavour’ or variation of Fascism, if you will, as it is closest to that ideological family than any other, regardless of what labels it chooses to market itself with.

I agree with you on everything else Corinthian, but you cant hold up one party and compare it to a stereotype by ticking off the boxes.

Fascism is a flavor of "Revolutionary" ie.wanting change by violent means. Communist/Facist/Republican all look similar but you cant compare a single party by holding it up and saying "That looks most like Fascism"

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
But one question that's niggling me is what are the reasons for insisting they are fascist?

Economically SF appear to be very much left of centre, however the concept of a government managed economy is hardly a socialist monopoly, as it was very much in evidence in Fascist economies.

Socially, again, SF might appear libertarian on many issues, but again one is assuming that other ideologies are not - including Fascism which often skirted from conservative to liberal and back again on social issues.

However the most telling evidence is that of the culture of militarism and of nationalism, born of romanticism, which is core to both Fascism and also very much so in Sinn Fein. To the best of my knowledge, no other ideology romanticizes this to the same level, to the extent that violence and militarism becomes a legitimate tool of political expression.

So given this, it is a fairly fair conclusion that there is significant overlap between the two, and not an unfair extrapolation that if one was to identify where in the political spectrum SF would rest, it would be alongside the more aggressive romantic nationalist ideologies, namely Fascism.

Originally posted by bus77
I agree with you on everything else Corinthian, but you cant hold up one party and compare it to a stereotype by ticking off the boxes.

I wasn’t comparing it to a stereotype but to just a broad ideological family. I’ve not said that it actually is Nazism, or Francoism or Classic Fascism, only that it originates from the same ‘school’. It would be like accusing the Labour party of being Socialists - they’re not, but their ideology is from the same ‘school’ as socialism.

Fascism is a flavor of "Revolutionary" ie.wanting change by violent means. Communist/Facist/Republican all look similar but you cant compare a single party by holding it up and saying "That looks most like Fascism"

But I’ve no simply said it looks like it, I’ve highlighted a number of similarities, including the most convincing one of militant nationalism. Even you would have to admit that if you can find enough similarities between the two then there is almost certainly a relationship.

Or, as I said, if it quacks like a duck and it looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

earwicker

Originally posted by The Corinthian
However the most telling evidence is that of the culture of militarism and of nationalism, born of romanticism, which is core to both Fascism and also very much so in Sinn Fein. To the best of my knowledge, no other ideology romanticizes this to the same level, to the extent that violence and militarism becomes a legitimate tool of political expression.

Again, fair enough. You concede that economically SF policy can be seen as leftie.

Your case does seem to boil down to two points: what you call militarism and nationalism. However, since the late 60's/ early 70's the romanticism of SF nationalism (national romanticism of course predates the formation of SF) has been gradually reinscribed in socialist terms returning to the analyses of the likes of James Connolly and Antonio Gramsci, where the unification of Ireland was seen as the necessary first step to establishing a nation state within which socialism would evolve from capitalism whose oppression would in turn foment worker revolution and result in a socialist government. Classic marxism.

monument

Originally posted by Sleepy
Accept reality. There was/is/never will be an ideal solution to the northern problem. A 32 county Ireland is an unattainable pipe dream as even if the Irish government were stupid enough to take it off the Brits' hands we couldn't afford to run it. What part of this don't Sinn Fein understand?

Talking about reality...

Originally posted by Sleepy
My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding

==============

Originally posted by Sleepy
Northern Ireland as an independant state.

Although, I would go for independent Northern Ireland if that was what the people of NI wanted ( - see I'm not a hardcore SF supporter after all )

Originally posted by Sleepy
By and large, the governments handling of the economy wasn't all that bad. .

Did you miss - "It's *NOT* the economy, stupid"... (x2)?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
Again, fair enough. You concede that economically SF policy can be seen as leftie.

I never denied that. In fact ive argued that such ‘leftie’ economic policies were a commonality between most Fascist systems and SF.

Your case does seem to boil down to two points: what you call militarism and nationalism. However, since the late 60's/ early 70's the romanticism of SF nationalism (national romanticism of course predates the formation of SF) has been gradually reinscribed in socialist terms returning to the analyses of the likes of James Connolly and Antonio Gramsci, where the unification of Ireland was seen as the necessary first step to establishing a nation state within which socialism would evolve from capitalism whose oppression would in turn foment worker revolution and result in a socialist government. Classic marxism.

Actually no. Both Marx and Engels rejected the notion of the Nation as an invention of capitalism:

The bourgeoisie ... has agglomerated population, centralised means of production, and has concentrated property in a few hands. The necessary consequence of this was political centralisation. Independent, or but loosely connected provinces, with separate interests, laws, governments and systems of taxation, became lumped together into one nation, with one government, one code of laws, one national class interest, one frontier and one customs tariff

As such nationhood is simply a means to encourage international revolution not a goal in itself, which would appear to be at odds with SF ideology.

sroberts82

Now im new to this game and i dont know a whole pile so if im wrong in what i say i apologise. It seems to me that before sinn fein can become an accepted part of irish politics they must stop dividing themselves apart from the rest. A prime example of this was the waving of the tricolor at the election counts where they won seats. They do not own that flag, there was no need to wave it, we knew where we were. I think this is indicitive of the way sinn fein sees itself, as outsiders. Before everyone else sees them as part of the political process surely they must do so themselves first.

earwicker

Are you saying that Gramsci is not marxist?

Within marxism it's generally accepted that the nation is a necessary step in the formation of capitalism. I didn't say the reverse. Capitalism is accepted as a necessary step toward worker revolution.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
Within marxism it's generally accepted that the nation is a necessary step in the formation of capitalism. I didn't say the reverse. Capitalism is accepted as a necessary step toward worker revolution.

I repeat:

As such nationhood is simply a means to encourage international revolution not a goal in itself, which would appear to be at odds with SF ideology.

That's what I said.

earwicker

And I've been trying to tell you that it's not at odds with the policies of SF. An analysis of the history of SF bears what I've been saying out.

It may, however, be at odds with your interpretation of their policy. And that is fair enough.

Like I said ages ago, we can agree to disagree (and I'll try to keep to this this time!).

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
Like I said ages ago, we can agree to disagree (and I'll try to keep to this this time!).

Fair 'nuff.

Stabshauptmann

Im new enough to boards and missed the start of this thread, I have read the first and last pages and have some comments, I’m sorry if I repeat things or step on anybodies toes.
I voted no in that poll. I’m a republican in the strict sense of the word ie I believe that all people are equal and believe that a political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them is the best form of government.

Page 1

dark_knight_ire

But think about this sinn feins members come from the ranks of the IRA not all of them but they fund each other.

IRA active service units never exceeded a few hundred members and do not have the manpower in the ROI to account for these election results.

They want their own police force and army.

They IRA want a fair police force that they feel they can trust. In the ROI they accept the legitimacy of the Gardai, in NI they don’t yet have confidence in the police force. When one looks at history this stance is understandable but I don’t think things can progress further unless SF contributes fully to the policing board.

Remember 96 and the "raid" in adare.

Using specific case points is pointless as all sides in the NI conflict can “remember” examples of evil deeds perpetrated by their foes.

I would consider myself a republican but these guys are a different breed most of the people in the election are half criminals if not full criminals.

A republican by definition deems all citizens equally capable to vote and stand for election. Is there not a contradiction in your statement?

They have no idea how to run a country. The green book the organiation ran on stated that the gov of ireland was an illegal gov, and they had the moral right to a "war" they want a socialist state. In which case this country would desent into the depths of hell if they got into power. I could never see a garda or a member of the defence forces saluting any member of sinn fein.

SF seem to be doing a good job at local level and in NI. I’d say they have a very good idea of how to run a government. Regardless of who is in power the civil service runs the country.
Seeing as how you’re a republican you wont mind if I quote Dev: “It is an recognized principal that a revolutionary may, with honour at least, assume responsibility for interpreting the national will even against apparent national wishes, provided he sincerely and selflessly believes it to be in the national interest to do so.” I would imagine that people who risked their lives, served prison sentences and in some cases sacrificed their lives would be considered sincere and selfless.
The IRA accepted the legitimacy of the Dail, Gardai and Defence Forces a good while ago.
Can you read the future??


Tuxy

wait now how exactly are u comparing sinn fein to nazis
do u know what nazi means?

A very good point considering he never mentioned the Nazi’s once in a thread he started about nazi’s. Although Nazi stands for National socialist party, they had very few socialist policies. Fascism would generally be seen as right wing and socialism left so Marxists or Stalinists would be the ones to compare SF to; and even then I would argue against that.

Agent Orange

If you want to vote for a republican party then vote for a proper republican party - even Fianna Fail. At least they don't kill people.

In the strictest sense FF are not a “proper” republican party- they do not see all people as equal. Only a socialist party could in truth be seen as republican so Labour would be a republican party. Of course if you are using a broader definition of anyone who favours a government of the ppl then all parties in the Dail are proper republican parties. :confused

super_furry

Sinn Fein will never be a legitimate political party as long as they have a private army of murders, thugs and terrorists at their beck and call.

Only 3 of the 7 man army council are SF representatives so SF do not have the IRA at their beck and call. Your definition of the Ira as a band of murders, thugs and terrorists is another days argument. Sufficed to say, by your definition SF are a legitimate political party.

The Brigadier

Fascism has allways grown out of nationalism

Really? Where do monarchies come from?

Sleepy

Sinn Fein aren't a legitimate force in Irish politics.

Why not? I only have my pocket dictionary here and will take out a better one when I go home but legitimate here means “Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards”. In this respect SF are legitimate. The three major parties in the Dáil have all had links to private armies. FF=IRA, FG=Blueshirts, Lb=OIRA (when itmerged with OSF and democratic left). It seems that the established pattern in Ireland is to have an army but get rid of it when you come to power. SF is taking the steps necessary to disband the IRA and I believe that this will have happened by the time SF enters power.

They are a front for murdering scumbags.

Who are these murdering scumbags you speak of? If anybody would like to start another thread about the legitimacy of the cause and way it was conducted I would be very interested to contribute to it, but that is not the terms of reference for this thread.

They are too dumb to understand that socialism died with the fall of the Berlin wall.

Maybe we should tell Germany that their vibrant economic success hasn’t actually happened or that the public health systems of Scandinavia are just an illusion. Are we both talking about socialism being a theory or system of social reform which contemplates a reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor where the state provides the services needed by it citizens such as health, education, infrastructure and employment? I always considered Ireland to be a socialist state.

They use propoganda instead of policies.

The word is propaganda and that is a very interesting argument seeing as for a long time SF were banned from using the media at all. That is called censorship by the way.

They mobilize the ignorant and poor, dngling pipe-dreams in front of them without even *hinting* at any means of achieving these dreams.

You remind me of Eoin Harris. Sf don’t show these ppl the contempt you show them and that’s why they get their votes.

Until Sinn Fein give up socialism, learn to behave like human beings instead of animals locked in blood feuds (which, let's face it is all the north is about these days), come up with policies instead of daydreams and stop idolising idiots (and lets face it , anyone who kills themselves over their clothes is a bit thick really) they won't be a legitimate political party.

What ever you think of SF or the IRA that type of disgraceful mockery of the dead is appalling. If someone were to mock Det Sgt MaCabe would you stand for it?
If intelligence were the requisite of legitimacy then you sir are a bastard.

Page 4

To_be_confirmed

I think its saddening that certain people brand a political party (in this case Sinn Féin) as "Left" or "Right". Peoples' ideas, beliefs, feelings, ideals etc. are too complex to use a two-dimensional view on their opinions

A very intelligent point, I must admit though that for convenience I have at times summed myself up with such curt words.

bus77

I suspect the original founders of Sinn Fein were a mixture of Communist and almost Facist types who held out hope of one day returning to take power, but after so many years the party has (I hope) been repopulated with a "mixed bag" once again.

It might be said that FF is a mixture of left(Cowen, Martin) and right (Brennen, McCreevy) and that this is a long way from the parties founding fathers. I would say that given time SF and FF will find a lot of common ground and I could see them in coalition together some day.

Sleepy

Nor does it make it right to throw away economic success.

How do you measure success, I measure it in social issues- Health, Education, Crime rates, Infrastructure etc
I don’t believe that the FF/PD coalition has brought any success. If you are talking about economic success most serious long term commentators would give the rainbow coalition the credit.

Accept reality. There was/is/never will be an ideal solution to the northern problem. A 32 county Ireland is an unattainable pipe dream as even if the Irish government were stupid enough to take it off the Brits' hands we couldn't afford to run it. What part of this don't Sinn Fein understand?

My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding Northern Ireland as an independant state.

So you would solve violence with violence, extreme violence at that, reminiscent of Nazi tactics.

Stabshauptmann

there was some problem putting this all in one reply--



sroberts82

A prime example of this was the waving of the tricolor at the election counts where they won seats. They do not own that flag, there was no need to wave it, we knew where we were. I think this is indicitive of the way sinn fein sees itself, as outsiders. Before everyone else sees them as part of the political process surely they must do so themselves first.

Why do they do that? Maybe its just that the same crowd in the centers are the same crowd from the north and up there its us and them mentality. Personally I believe it is disrespectful to the flag and to the state.

Ajnag

The extremism and narrow minded logic of the anti-shinner in this thread is beyond belife.One point Ill hop on is the arrogance to ignore the fact that the hunger strikers were a part of the civil rights issue.As well as much other ignorance to the recent history involved.

Sinn Fein hasnt got my vote yet, but I will say this, anyone who hop's on the mindless bandwagon of the anti shinners will have lost my confidence.

There are many things that the shinners have yet to awnser for, However the sheer drivel and attitude of mc dowell and some of the posters here will only serve to allow shin fein to get off the hook given the lunacy and extremism that their opposition is presenting them with.

The Brigadier

Seeing as I am going home to the UK I feel I can now come out and say how I feel without fear of getting banned....

Sinn Fein are the political front for the IRA a terrorist organisation. Gerry Adams does have blood on his hands.

Well done Ireland, I really hope you enjoy them.

I hope they get into power with a majority government, then you will feel the ramifications.

Goodbye!

sceptre

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Sinn Fein are the political front for the IRA a terrorist organisation. Gerry Adams does have blood on his hands.

That's hardly the kind of thing that'll get anyone banned. Plenty of people have said that over the years. Given that Gerry Adams apparently joined the IRA around 1972 I'd be half-surprised if he didn't either put a bullet in someone or hold a mate's pint while someone got a bullet in them at some point. And no, I don't have a copy of his membership card.

I'll ignore the rest of your post if you don't mind as obviously the local idiots in Dublin were particularly vocal tonight, if they even stopped there (those of us with two brain cells to rub together have never quite been able to understand it). And I'll wish you well on your trip home James.

The Brigadier

Thanks for your well wishes Sceptre....

Shame I am leaving Ireland with such a sour taste in my mouth...

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Ajnag
The extremism and narrow minded logic of the anti-shinner in this thread is beyond belife.One point Ill hop on is the arrogance to ignore the fact that the hunger strikers were a part of the civil rights issue.As well as much other ignorance to the recent history involved.

Sinn Fein hasnt got my vote yet, but I will say this, anyone who hop's on the mindless bandwagon of the anti shinners will have lost my confidence.

There are many things that the shinners have yet to awnser for, However the sheer drivel and attitude of mc dowell and some of the posters here will only serve to allow shin fein to get off the hook given the lunacy and extremism that their opposition is presenting them with.

Outside of ranting in much the same way as you are accusing others of, what exactly are you trying to say?

Originally posted by sceptre
I'll ignore the rest of your post if you don't mind as obviously the local idiots in Dublin were particularly vocal tonight, if they even stopped there (those of us with two brain cells to rub together have never quite been able to understand it). And I'll wish you well on your trip home James.

Awe, diddums... are the nasty city slickers making fun of your webbed toes again..?